What's up with Lakes Region Merchants?

[MAXUM]

Don't know how many have noticed or not but most of these big box stores are selling cheaper "made for box stores" versions of the real deal yet charging all the money for them.

By far Wal Mart is the worst, they prey on the poor folks by stocking those super stores with crappy food and cheapo junk all made in China. Wal Mart doesn't get any business from me, I'll go anywhere but that place.

[tis]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Don't know how many have noticed or not but most of these big box stores are selling cheaper "made for box stores" versions of the real deal yet charging all the money for them.

I don't think most people realize that Maxum. For instance the John Deere tractors are made just for them and the Anderson windows don't have Anderson screens and hardware-at least they didn't used to. You are often getting a different product, but who would think to ask??

[Newbiesaukee]

Although I shop locally whenever possible, the products are just as likely to have been made in China as in the big box stores. Clearly, there are exceptions depending on the type of business; but country of origin is another topic entirely. I shop locally to attempt to help the community and expect to have better service even at a slightly higher price. But I think the point is well taken that longer hours ARE better service. Not quite on point, but I won't pay 30% higher for the same product even if it is at a locally owned store.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I would prefer that a store took a day or two off but stayed open until 7-8 the days they were open.

[NoBozo]

My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$

Every two years we (RI) have to have the car inspected. This is done by inserting Their plug into Your OBD plug under the dash and reading the Codes. This tells THEM that your car is COOL and you PASS....OR NOT.

SO: The day I go to have the car inspected,...I disconnect the negative battery cable and leave it disconnected for an hour or two. Overnight is better. The OBD Computer loses its memory and does not regain that memory for a day or two. The car passes inspection and all is well for the next two years...except the check engine light comes on a day later and I have to LIVE with it. Just sayin. Try IT. You will save thousands in BOGUS repair expences.

BTW: I KNOW more about cars than They Do. NB

PS: I bought a 1995 Tacoma New in 1996. I sold it in 2007 with 145,000 miles on it. The Check Engine Light haunted me for the whole time. That experience taught me to do what I have recomended above. You have Nothing to loose.

PPS: I am a stuborn OLD FART.

[Sunbeam lodge]

[QUOTE=NoBozo;132905]My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$



PS: I bought a 1995 Tacoma New in 1996. I sold it in 2007 with 145,000 miles on it. The Check Engine Light haunted me for the whole time. That experience taught me to do what I have recomended above. You have Nothing to loose.

I had the same irritating problem looking at that Check engine light. Just put a piece of that good old duct tape over it.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$

Every two years we (RI) have to have the car inspected. This is done by inserting Their plug into Your OBD plug under the dash and reading the Codes. This tells THEM that your car is COOL and you PASS....OR NOT.

SO: The day I go to have the car inspected,...I disconnect the negative battery cable and leave it disconnected for an hour or two. Overnight is better. The OBD Computer loses its memory and does not regain that memory for a day or two. The car passes inspection and all is well for the next two years...except the check engine light comes on a day later and I have to LIVE with it. Just sayin. Try IT. You will save thousands in BOGUS repair expences.

I'm left with 2 thoughts. Either Toyota isn't in compliance with OBDII regs or the service station isn't actually plugging their tester into the plug. When you remove power the fault light goes out (some cars store the faults in flash memory and don't clear). What's supposed to happen is that over the next 100 - 200 miles of driving the car is (ideally) going to experience a wide enough range of operating conditions to be able to assess it's compliance with the federal emissions regulations. If it doesn't pass then the check engine light comes on. If it passes, it doesn't. Until this testing has been done the cars computer will "know" the testing isn't complete and communicate this "not ready" state to the stations testing reader. A "not ready" on the readiness code should not get you a passed sticker.

ps - Not every reason that makes the check engine light come on is reason to fail emission testing. A lot of the auto parts places will read your fault codes for free ... hoping to sell you parts of course.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$

Every two years we (RI) have to have the car inspected. This is done by inserting Their plug into Your OBD plug under the dash and reading the Codes. This tells THEM that your car is COOL and you PASS....OR NOT.

SO: The day I go to have the car inspected,...I disconnect the negative battery cable and leave it disconnected for an hour or two. Overnight is better. The OBD Computer loses its memory and does not regain that memory for a day or two. The car passes inspection and all is well for the next two years...except the check engine light comes on a day later and I have to LIVE with it. Just sayin. Try IT. You will save thousands in BOGUS repair expences.

BTW: I KNOW more about cars than They Do. NB

PS: I bought a 1995 Tacoma New in 1996. I sold it in 2007 with 145,000 miles on it. The Check Engine Light haunted me for the whole time. That experience taught me to do what I have recomended above. You have Nothing to loose.

PPS: I am a stuborn OLD FART.

You probably need a $10 gas cap.........

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$

Every two years we (RI) have to have the car inspected. This is done by inserting Their plug into Your OBD plug under the dash and reading the Codes. This tells THEM that your car is COOL and you PASS....OR NOT.

SO: The day I go to have the car inspected,...I disconnect the negative battery cable and leave it disconnected for an hour or two. Overnight is better. The OBD Computer loses its memory and does not regain that memory for a day or two. The car passes inspection and all is well for the next two years...except the check engine light comes on a day later and I have to LIVE with it. Just sayin. Try IT. You will save thousands in BOGUS repair expences.

BTW: I KNOW more about cars than They Do. NB

PS: I bought a 1995 Tacoma New in 1996. I sold it in 2007 with 145,000 miles on it. The Check Engine Light haunted me for the whole time. That experience taught me to do what I have recomended above. You have Nothing to loose.

PPS: I am a stuborn OLD FART.

Let me see if I can dispel at least some of this for you NB. I'll start by telling you that I used to work for Toyota as a tech (certified by Toyota and ASE as well for what that's worth). I'm no longer in the business, but still do plenty of wrenching on my own vehicles and family as well. I personally have one Toyota and two Lexus's. I won't own anything but...

The on board computer you have in your car must meet the ODBII standard which is a FEDERAL standard, not something that Toyota made up. The purpose of this standard was prior OBD systems were all proprietary and you did need a special scanner to easily read the diags, although there were ways around that as well by crossing the E1/TE1 ports with a jumper wire on the diagnostics connection and count the CEL (check engine light) flashes on the dash. The service manual would tell you what the code flashes stood for. ** EDIT ** This also is only for Toyota brand vehicles. Early generation EFI systems it was E1/T1, later it was E1/TE1.

Now ODBII introduced as I said a federal standard that ALL vehicles manufactured after 1996 have identical onboard diagnostics that all can be read with a single scanner, have the same plug interface and all use the same basic code library. Before this happened it really was a total PITA to be a "general all brands" mechanic. This allows for anyone to buy an inexpensive scanner to pull basic codes on any make or model 1996 or newer. It also helped out the independent shops from having to buy a scanner for every manufacturer and keep them updated every time a new model year hit the pavement. Believe me these factory scanners are big bucks. Now all manufacturers have extended libraries and codes that are brand specific but these are for more for diagnostics of proprietary systems. The basic ODBII federally mandated code library is mostly for throwing the CEL if a problem is detected in the emissions control system. For example I had a code thrown in my Lexus ES300 that was from the SRS library (supplemental restraint system - IE air bag system) and needed the extended Toyota reader to pull those codes.

It should be noted, if the computer is being sniffed for inspection.... you will fail if you reset the computer and immediately bring it down to be read. Before I get into why... if you want to reset the CEL, any over the counter ODBII scanner can do so. If you don't want to shell out the 50-100 bucks for one, instead of pulling the battery cable (which if done incorrectly can do damage to the electrical system) near the battery should be a fuse block, find the EFI fuse (usually a 15 amp) pull it for 30 seconds and plug it back in. Your onboard ODBII memory will be cleared and the light goes out. **EDIT** as a disclaimer, I know this works on all Toyota cars and trucks, other brands I have no idea. The CEL light will only go out after doing this if you are experiencing an intermittent problem, or the issue is not detected immediately. Some sensors that are in hard failure will immediately kick the CEL upon reset. Others like a faulty O2 sensor may not kick the CEL until it's seen several bad readings over a period of time.

On to why it's on and inspections. In order to pass inspection there must be no codes stored in the computer, a stored code equals a CEL on the dash. The computer must also be fully initialized and have gone through a full system data collection cycle which takes time from the point of reset. If you reset the computer and try to read it right away it shows several data points as "pending data collection" and if your car is being inspected and the computer is found in this state, you will not fail, but you will not pass. Rather they will ask you to come back later to re-sniff the computer or I should say that's what *should* happen. Time for full initialization of all data collections varies but usually if you drive about 50 - 100 miles or so that is enough but I have heard but cannot confirm some are based on start/stop engine cycles. What ever the case may be, you should be aware of this.

Now why is it on, well get the computer sniffed and you'll be able to find out what the problem is. Some auto parts stores will do it for free if you don't want to buy a scanner, Autozone comes to mind as a place that will scan for free, they also sell the scanners. Frankly the scanners are so cheap now it's almost silly not to just go buy one.

You need to be careful here because chances are the code being thrown is related to the emissions control system and although the car and even the gas mileage may seem perfectly normal the condition being flagged could over the long term do damage to the engine. For example - you may be running to lean in one of the EFI banks, a situation that otherwise would not make any difference in performance. Run in that condition long enough and you will do permanent and potentially catastrophic damage to the engine. I agree that the CEL can and does come on at times for bogus reasons, but if it keeps on returning with the same code something is wrong. Usually when I'm running diags on my own vehicles I'll pull the engine codes and then clear them out and wait to see if they return and if they do (50/50 shot) and how long it took for them to come back. I have at times driven for a while 2K miles or so to see if the problem will correct itself and kill the CEL or not. Then from there determine what needs to be fixed and address it.

Engines now a days are pretty sophisticated and attempt to think for themselves at times. If your Camry has a faulty sensor the computer can and will in the interest of emissions control may change the way the engine runs to compensate for whatever it thinks is broken or faulty.

If you think this is all bad the Government is working on the ODBIII standard which as it has been rumored will shut down your car if the CEL comes on and you ignore it for x amount of miles. It will also have a built in GPS unit and have the capability to output the health of your vehicle via satellite connection. The idea is to have your vehicle report it's having problems to your local stealership so they can call you on the phone to come in for service. Not to be out done here in the real commie states like California they are talking about outfitting the state police with readers that can pick this stuff up and actually pull over and ticket people to get their cars fixed. The DMV also wants access to this so they can black ball your registration renewal until repaired. Other states (of the typical liberal way of thinking) have expressed similar interest. I'm all for clean cars and keeping stuff in good working order, but this is way over the top if it's ever adopted, and don't think for one second is won't.

Um geeze I think I just blew about 45 minutes of work off to write this, back to the grind... NB I have no idea where you live but I'd be more than happy to sniff your computer and tell you what it's barfing about. It's takes all of about 2 minutes to pull the codes.

Had to make a couple edits just to make the statement that I know this stuff only works on Toyota vehicles, any other brand I have no idea. All my prior experience is with one brand, which is why that's all a drive.

[VitaBene]

Thank you for that very informative post.

The OBDIII scenario you note is scary (but very much real and believable). Many new cars store data that can get their owners in trouble in the event of an accident, etc.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Let me see if I can dispel at least some of this for you NB. I'll start by telling you that I used to work for Toyota as a tech (certified by Toyota and ASE as well for what that's worth). I'm no longer in the business, but still do plenty of wrenching on my own vehicles and family as well. I personally have one Toyota and two Lexus's. I won't own anything but...

The on board computer you have in your car must meet the ODBII standard which is a FEDERAL standard, not something that Toyota made up. The purpose of this standard was prior OBD systems were all proprietary and you did need a special scanner to easily read the diags, although there were ways around that as well by crossing the E1/TE1 ports with a jumper wire on the diagnostics connection and count the CEL (check engine light) flashes on the dash. The service manual would tell you what the code flashes stood for. ** EDIT ** This also is only for Toyota brand vehicles. Early generation EFI systems it was E1/T1, later it was E1/TE1.

Now ODBII introduced as I said a federal standard that ALL vehicles manufactured after 1996 have identical onboard diagnostics that all can be read with a single scanner, have the same plug interface and all use the same basic code library. Before this happened it really was a total PITA to be a "general all brands" mechanic. This allows for anyone to buy an inexpensive scanner to pull basic codes on any make or model 1996 or newer. It also helped out the independent shops from having to buy a scanner for every manufacturer and keep them updated every time a new model year hit the pavement. Believe me these factory scanners are big bucks. Now all manufacturers have extended libraries and codes that are brand specific but these are for more for diagnostics of proprietary systems. The basic ODBII federally mandated code library is mostly for throwing the CEL if a problem is detected in the emissions control system. For example I had a code thrown in my Lexus ES300 that was from the SRS library (supplemental restraint system - IE air bag system) and needed the extended Toyota reader to pull those codes.

It should be noted, if the computer is being sniffed for inspection.... you will fail if you reset the computer and immediately bring it down to be read. Before I get into why... if you want to reset the CEL, any over the counter ODBII scanner can do so. If you don't want to shell out the 50-100 bucks for one, instead of pulling the battery cable (which if done incorrectly can do damage to the electrical system) near the battery should be a fuse block, find the EFI fuse (usually a 15 amp) pull it for 30 seconds and plug it back in. Your onboard ODBII memory will be cleared and the light goes out. **EDIT** as a disclaimer, I know this works on all Toyota cars and trucks, other brands I have no idea. The CEL light will only go out after doing this if you are experiencing an intermittent problem, or the issue is not detected immediately. Some sensors that are in hard failure will immediately kick the CEL upon reset. Others like a faulty O2 sensor may not kick the CEL until it's seen several bad readings over a period of time.

On to why it's on and inspections. In order to pass inspection there must be no codes stored in the computer, a stored code equals a CEL on the dash. The computer must also be fully initialized and have gone through a full system data collection cycle which takes time from the point of reset. If you reset the computer and try to read it right away it shows several data points as "pending data collection" and if your car is being inspected and the computer is found in this state, you will not fail, but you will not pass. Rather they will ask you to come back later to re-sniff the computer or I should say that's what *should* happen. Time for full initialization of all data collections varies but usually if you drive about 50 - 100 miles or so that is enough but I have heard but cannot confirm some are based on start/stop engine cycles. What ever the case may be, you should be aware of this.

Now why is it on, well get the computer sniffed and you'll be able to find out what the problem is. Some auto parts stores will do it for free if you don't want to buy a scanner, Autozone comes to mind as a place that will scan for free, they also sell the scanners. Frankly the scanners are so cheap now it's almost silly not to just go buy one.

You need to be careful here because chances are the code being thrown is related to the emissions control system and although the car and even the gas mileage may seem perfectly normal the condition being flagged could over the long term do damage to the engine. For example - you may be running to lean in one of the EFI banks, a situation that otherwise would not make any difference in performance. Run in that condition long enough and you will do permanent and potentially catastrophic damage to the engine. I agree that the CEL can and does come on at times for bogus reasons, but if it keeps on returning with the same code something is wrong. Usually when I'm running diags on my own vehicles I'll pull the engine codes and then clear them out and wait to see if they return and if they do (50/50 shot) and how long it took for them to come back. I have at times driven for a while 2K miles or so to see if the problem will correct itself and kill the CEL or not. Then from there determine what needs to be fixed and address it.

Engines now a days are pretty sophisticated and attempt to think for themselves at times. If your Camry has a faulty sensor the computer can and will in the interest of emissions control may change the way the engine runs to compensate for whatever it thinks is broken or faulty.

If you think this is all bad the Government is working on the ODBIII standard which as it has been rumored will shut down your car if the CEL comes on and you ignore it for x amount of miles. It will also have a built in GPS unit and have the capability to output the health of your vehicle via satellite connection. The idea is to have your vehicle report it's having problems to your local stealership so they can call you on the phone to come in for service. Not to be out done here in the real commie states like California they are talking about outfitting the state police with readers that can pick this stuff up and actually pull over and ticket people to get their cars fixed. The DMV also wants access to this so they can black ball your registration renewal until repaired. Other states (of the typical liberal way of thinking) have expressed similar interest. I'm all for clean cars and keeping stuff in good working order, but this is way over the top if it's ever adopted, and don't think for one second is won't.

Um geeze I think I just blew about 45 minutes of work off to write this, back to the grind... NB I have no idea where you live but I'd be more than happy to sniff your computer and tell you what it's barfing about. It's takes all of about 2 minutes to pull the codes.

Had to make a couple edits just to make the statement that I know this stuff only works on Toyota vehicles, any other brand I have no idea. All my prior experience is with one brand, which is why that's all a drive.

Hey MAXIM. I Didn't Read all of your post. You might try to limit the verbage......Try BREVITY my Friend....

I worked for Toyota as well....As a Degreed Engineer (I also know how to turn a wrench) AND as a Criticle Observer AND a Customer. Two NEW trucks and one car from the same dealer that I worked for.. Not going to go in to it here because it's not Lakes Region related. Best Regards MAXIM. NB

BTW: I have owned ALL New Toyotas since 1974...with a brief interlude with Honda, so I am not bashing Toyota out of hand.

[fatnoah]

I prefer to "go local" whenever possible. If some store owner is going to make money off my dime, I'd rather it be someone in my community than a huge chain's CEO. Don't get me wrong, I hit up the big boxes and Internet all the time, but all things being equal (or close enough) it's local for me.

Don't know how many have noticed or not but most of these big box stores are selling cheaper "made for box stores" versions of the real deal yet charging all the money for them

This is very widespread. For electronics, the model numbers may even be slightly different too.

When I was building a brick walkway, I priced out my local lumber store vs. Lowes/Home Depot. The big boxes were cheaper, but I also noticed that their bricks seemed to be less dense and more cheaply made. I ended up buying from the local place because the price difference wasn't much.

I also prefer going to the local hardware store. I've found that even the high-school kids that work at the store know where everything is, and with the exception of building supplies, the selection is nearly identical...they just don't have hundreds of everything in stock. If they don't have it, they'll order it. My only complaint is that they don't take AMEX.

On the other side of the coin, plants are so cheap at the big boxes, I get most smaller stuff from them.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

.

Hi MAXUM: I just had a chance to read your entire post this afternoon. Interesting stuff.

In a perfect world, the OBDII computer can be a useful device. On my old truck when the CEL first came on at around 50K miles, (Warranty expired) I took it to the dealer and they "sniffed" the computer and found nothing. They charged me $35 to do it.

The next time it tripped, I reset it (battery disconnect) and started a Logbook with the mileage everytime the CEL went on, I would write down the mileage. For 40K miles or so I did this with NO decernable pattern. Miles between tripping were random..sometimes a couple of thousand miles apart..sometimes only a hundred. The only work I did on the truck ('95 Taco) that would have any connection to OBD were replacing O2 sensor Gaskets & Nuts in the exhaust pipe. The sensors themselves May Have been bad but it didn't have any effect on the way the truck ran....AND State Inspection didn't use the OBD then.

MY Problem is, I have never really Trusted Dealers to be Honest mechanics. This was reinforced on my last LAST TWO consecutive visits to the dealer where I had purchased my last three NEW vehicles, and had had almost all my service done for the previous 14 years.

So I'm back to changing my own oil again..@ 69 years old. I have not been back to that dealer since. Almost two years.

MAXUM..My apologies for not reading your entire post last night. NB

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Hi MAXUM: I just had a chance to read your entire post this afternoon. Interesting stuff.

In a perfect world, the OBDII computer can be a useful device. On my old truck when the CEL first came on at around 50K miles, (Warranty expired) I took it to the dealer and they "sniffed" the computer and found nothing. They charged me $35 to do it.

The next time it tripped, I reset it (battery disconnect) and started a Logbook with the mileage everytime the CEL went on, I would write down the mileage. For 40K miles or so I did this with NO decernable pattern. Miles between tripping were random..sometimes a couple of thousand miles apart..sometimes only a hundred. The only work I did on the truck ('95 Taco) that would have any connection to OBD were replacing O2 sensor Gaskets & Nuts in the exhaust pipe. The sensors themselves May Have been bad but it didn't have any effect on the way the truck ran....AND State Inspection didn't use the OBD then.

MY Problem is, I have never really Trusted Dealers to be Honest mechanics. This was reinforced on my last LAST TWO consecutive visits to the dealer where I had purchased my last three NEW vehicles, and had had almost all my service done for the previous 14 years.

So I'm back to changing my own oil again..@ 69 years old. I have not been back to that dealer since. Almost two years.

MAXUM..My apologies for not reading your entire post last night. NB

No sweat NB, I will admit to getting a little wordy sometimes and certainly have my opinions, good bad or indifferent.

For your Taco, (if it was the 3.4L 5VZE) three typical problem areas for throwing the CEL. Again not knowing the codes makes it pure speculation but I would bet in the following order on that one based on your description.

1. dirty MAF (mass air flow) sensor, very common problem.
2. loose crank case breather tube into the intake hose pre plenum.
3. air leaks at the O2 sensor flange, especially a problem on the heated O2 sensor (pre cat)


I've had the first two on my 98 T100 4X4, all three on my sister's 00 Tundra. I don't blame you on not trusting mechanics, we had some real idiots that worked at the dealer where I worked, there was also alot of up selling work that did not need to be done and sometimes wasn't (but still charged). That is part of the reason I bailed from being a mechanic, I'm to honest a guy to openly screw people like that, my service manager well he had no conscience so he had no problems sleeping at night. Sad for sure. I won't let anyone touch my vehicles period.

Enough of all the mechanical stuff, that's what other boards are for, my apologies for getting a bit out of hand and off topic. I just love mechanical stuff and figured maybe I could help you out a bit.

Lake Content: What the heck am I doing working on a day like today when I should be out on the boat on the lake? Answer: Oh yeah gas ain't free for the working class bums.

Cheers!

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

:

For your Taco, (if it was the 3.4L 5VZE) three typical problem areas for throwing the CEL. Again not knowing the codes makes it pure speculation but I would bet in the following order on that one based on your description.

Cheers!

YUP: That was it. 3.4L V6 5 speed manual trans 4x4. That was a NICE truck. I would get 22 mpg towing a 3000# boat across the mountains in Vermont driving from Winni to Lake George. Sometimes 27 mpg highway without the boat. That truck was only supposed to get 19 mpg highway.

I sold it for $5000 and a year and a half later, the buyer sold it back to Toyota for $8600. (The Rusty Chassis buyback.)

Toyota doesn't need the Government leaning on them, for them to STEP UP to the plate when something isn't right. NB

[RailroadJoe]

Thanks NB Does disconnecting the battery really reset the CEL? I had a problem with one and it cost me a bundle and ended up getting a new car. The old one never had a problem, only that the CEL stayed on for a year. Caused it to be rejected by the mechanic at inspection time.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

Thanks NB Does disconnecting the battery really reset the CEL? I had a problem with one and it cost me a bundle and ended up getting a new car. The old one never had a problem, only that the CEL stayed on for a year. Caused it to be rejected by the mechanic at inspection time.

Dis-Connecting the battery worked for me. (2005 Camry) It turned OFF the CEL and the car passed inspection. I can't say if it "Reset" the computer. This may be what ...."IS..IS". I think MAXUM knows more about the "Intricacies" of this than I do. NB