Should Non Resident Tax Payers vote?

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by MarkinNH

This thread is about whether or not Non Resident tax payers should have the right to vote. I don't believe it makes any referance to people, resident or not, being bothered with having to pay property taxes !
Your post is coming in from somewhere way out in left field.

The reality is that if the property taxes were a lot lower the majority of property owners wouldn't care if they could vote in local elections. They would only be interested in voting to be able to control spending and thereby lower their taxes. Occasional summer residents would have little interest in schools, winter issues, libraries, social programs, etc. Non resident interest is driven by the level of spending and the associated taxes.

You believe that paying taxes should give you the privilege of voting but that has never been the case. Residency and citizenship always controls voting rights. If you live in the USA and are a citizen you vote in US elections not Canadian elections, even if you have interests in Canada that causes you to pay taxes in Canada. If you live in New York you vote in New York, not in Massachusetts, even if you work in Massachusetts and pay income tax there. The same carries through to the town level. Where you live is where you have voting rights and you can only reside in one place at a time.

There is sense in this because it is the people who live in an area that are most impacted by laws in that area. Suppose for example that Moultonborough, that has a large non resident population, was controlled by the votes of those non residents. They might gut school programs, snow plowing budgets, and other programs that they don't find of personal value.

Further, if money buys the vote, as you are proposing, shouldn't more money buy a bigger vote? If I pay 10 times the property tax shouldn't I get 10 times the votes of someone else? How about big companies? They pay big property taxes in the town. Shouldn't they get a big vote as well?

I would agree that my last post didn't directly answer the question posed about voting rights. Instead I answered the real question behind the question, i.e the disatisfaction with the level of property taxes paid. Mark, are you telling me you would like the right to vote here to be able to work on improving NH schools or the social support programs in the towns?

[Lakegeezer]

The law is clear, but in Moultonborough, it creates some special problems. First, something like 70% of the property valuation is shoreline property and less (probably well less) than 20% of the voters live on the lake. This means a large majority of the tax revenue comes from nonvoters.

The second problem is that of the voting 20% that do live on the lake, many (maybe half) are in Florida during the town meeting in March, where there is no absentee balloting. There is a lopsided balance between funders and spenders. Many issues are decided by voters who are also town employees, because they show up in sufficient numbers to swing the vote their way.

For the most part, Moultonborough is a conservatively fiscal town, but the state has designated it a “donor town” in 2011, to provide schooling welfare funds to poorer towns. The new donor tax alone will be about $1.25 per thousand in 2011, or a $1250 increase for a million dollar home. Ouch!

The recent controversy is boiling because an appraisal firm from Mass raised the valuation of most shoreline properties this year, while decreasing many non-shoreline ones. Their justification was not compelling and the process was not transparent. The law makes the tax situation unbalanced as it is. It appears as if non-voters are being taken advantage of, and are upset there is no apparent recourse, other than to suck it up.

[MarkinNH]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

For the most part, Moultonborough is a conservatively fiscal town, but the state has designated it a “donor town” in 2011, to provide schooling welfare funds to poorer towns. The new donor tax alone will be about $1.25 per thousand in 2011, or a $1250 increase for a million dollar home. Ouch!
(

It will be interesting to see how those on this forum, who are dead set against, and willing to deny others the right to have a say (yes I know the laws) in how their money gets spent, start whinning when the tables are turned and they have to start paying more taxes without having any say in how the money gets spent.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by MarkinNH

It will be interesting to see how those on this forum, who are dead set against, and willing to deny others the right to have a say (yes I know the laws) in how their money gets spent, start whinning when the tables are turned and they have to start paying more taxes without having any say in how the money gets spent.

The members of this forum do not make the rules on whether or not you can vote as a non-resident property owner. Some of us just look at things differently than others.

For instance, I cannot afford waterfront property on Lake Winnipesaukee. I have to use a public means of access to enjoy the lake. In my mind you are fortunate that you have a private domain to enjoy the lake without having to deal with another soul, if you so choose. That is something that comes at a price.

Seriously, count your blessings and be thankful for what you have and quit whining. This is the number one reason why many locals could care less what folks from out of state have to say. Change, Change, Change!!!

[MarkinNH]

Originally Posted by jmen24

The members of this forum do not make the rules on whether or not you can vote as a non-resident property owner. Some of us just look at things differently than others.

For instance I cannot afford waterfront property on Lake Winnipesaukee. I have to use a public means of access to enjoy the lake. In my mind you are fortunate that you have a private domain to enjoy the lake without having to deal with another soul, if you so choose. That is something that comes at a price.

Seriously, count your blessings and be thankful for what you have and quit whining. This is the number one reason why many locals could care less what folks from out of state have to say. Change, Change, Change!!!

Neither can I !!!!!!! See what happens when you assume !
If you will take the time to go back and read post #9 you will see that I clearly state that I am a year round resident and not seasonal and just so you know and don't assume wrong again. I do not own waterfront property. I don't even live near the lake. I do not even use the lake. I am just a normal working stiff who spends his time working to pay my bills, taxes included. Fortunatly I am one of those who does get a say in how my property taxes get spent.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by MarkinNH

Neither can I !!!!!!! See what happens when you assume !
If you will take the time to go back and read post #9 you will see that I clearly state that I am a year round resident and not seasonal and just so you know and don't assume wrong again. I do not own waterfront property. I don't even live near the lake. I do not even use the lake. I am just a normal working stiff who spends his time working to pay my bills, taxes included. Fortunatly I am one of those who does get a say in how my property taxes get spent.

First, I apologize for making an assumption and for forgetting what was written back at the beginning of the thread.

But,
You need to sit down and think long and hard about what you are fighting for. Think about the affects of being able to vote anywhere you want, as you can find property for under 5K in just about any town in this country that will satisfy a tax payment for residency type of program.

This conversation just got really confusing to me. I do not get where you are coming from at all, don't take offense to that.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

The law is clear, but in Moultonborough, it creates some special problems. First, something like 70% of the property valuation is shoreline property and less (probably well less) than 20% of the voters live on the lake. This means a large majority of the tax revenue comes from nonvoters.

The second problem is that of the voting 20% that do live on the lake, many (maybe half) are in Florida during the town meeting in March, where there is no absentee balloting. There is a lopsided balance between funders and spenders. Many issues are decided by voters who are also town employees, because they show up in sufficient numbers to swing the vote their way.

For the most part, Moultonborough is a conservatively fiscal town, but the state has designated it a “donor town” in 2011, to provide schooling welfare funds to poorer towns. The new donor tax alone will be about $1.25 per thousand in 2011, or a $1250 increase for a million dollar home. Ouch!

The recent controversy is boiling because an appraisal firm from Mass raised the valuation of most shoreline properties this year, while decreasing many non-shoreline ones. Their justification was not compelling and the process was not transparent. The law makes the tax situation unbalanced as it is. It appears as if non-voters are being taken advantage of, and are upset there is no apparent recourse, other than to suck it up.

The school issue has been used to attempt to slam a broad based income tax down New Hampshire's throat, as has been done in many other states (that all have income,sales, AND a fairly high property tax now). The donor mechanism is the legislatures ham handed attempt to avoid that. I live in Moultonborough and agree that the latest assessment is unbelievable in light of current economic conditions. Perhaps it's time for a class action lawsuit against Vision assessments to assure fairness and transparency. I have no problem paying my fair share of taxes based on the reasonable assessment of my property but I have had 2 assessments done of my property last year and the town valuation comes in at over $150K over both of them. That is just ridiculous.

But in spite of all that, who gets the right to vote still should remain determined by residency.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by jeffk

The school issue has been used to attempt to slam a broad based income tax down New Hampshire's throat, as has been done in many other states (that all have income,sales, AND a fairly high property tax now). The donor mechanism is the legislatures ham handed attempt to avoid that. I live in Moultonborough and agree that the latest assessment is unbelievable in light of current economic conditions. Perhaps it's time for a class action lawsuit against Vision assessments to assure fairness and transparency. I have no problem paying my fair share of taxes based on the reasonable assessment of my property but I have had 2 assessments done of my property last year and the town valuation comes in at over $150K over both of them. That is just ridiculous.

But in spite of all that, who gets the right to vote still should remain determined by residency.

I just wanted to thank you for your continued even-handed and common sense posts related to this subject!

[no-engine]

My reading here is that this subject has been beaten to death. A forum can not change laws!
To me, and other posts, it's perfect sense that one votes in the jurisdiction of residence - property owner or a tenant..... Residence is the key!

Anyone can attend a city council meeting or town meeting! If one desires to speak to an issue, ask and be recognized by the chair after identifying oneself as whatever: resident & voter, tenant, property owner, etc.. That simple!
Roberts Rules!

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by no-engine

My reading here is that this subject has been beaten to death. A forum can not change laws!
To me, and other posts, it's perfect sense that one votes in the jurisdiction of residence - property owner or a tenant..... Residence is the key!

Anyone can attend a city council meeting or town meeting! If one desires to speak to an issue, ask and be recognized by the chair after identifying oneself as whatever: resident & voter, tenant, property owner, etc.. That simple!
Roberts Rules!

I agree that a forum has no legal power BUT a forum is where ideas are brought out and discussed. A town meeting is a poor place to discuss ideas simply because there is not enough time and not everyone who has an interest can attend. Further, minds are often made up before town meetings. In a forum, people can float whatever questions and ideas they want and others can respond. In addition, a forum environment allows people time to consider what is said and what response is given. On some topics that matter to me I have spent a couple hours considering the issue, researching information, and crafting a reply. This is very unlikely to happen in a meeting because of time constraints and the nervousness of "being in the spotlight". Many people with good ideas may be uncomfortable or unwilling to speak in a meeting. People come up with all sorts of viewpoints and until they are tested in a discussion forum of some type they won't see the strengths and weaknesses of their ideas. Forum discussion allows a concept to be tempered into a better final form that might then be presented at a meeting or to realize the idea may not have merit.

I'm not sure that some of these discussions fit well on the Winni forum because they can, regrettably, become contentious and that distracts from the main purpose of the website. Don has given us considerable leeway in some of these discussions and I appreciate that. So I say, respectfully, discuss on.

[The Real BigGuy]

I have no problem paying taxes on my summer residence but, either let me vote on how the money is spent or let the portion of the population that uses the majority of the services pay thier proportional share.

I spend maybe a total of 50 days at my summer residence. Not only am I part time resident that doesn't send my kids to the local school, use the library, dump, etc. I live on an island so I don't have roads to plow and the fire department will only be successful in saving the property next to mine if I have a fire. Why am I carrying the same or greater load than the family that lives here full time?

To me, it comes down to one thing - a portion of the full time residents of NH (I'll admit, not all of them) want someone else to foot the bill. "No income tax!" "No sales tax!" Instead, "let's put a surtax on people's vacation home most of them are from out of state." Let's rasie the waterfront property valuations and lower the inland valuations. Most of the waterfront people are from out of state." "Let's let other towns in the state pay for schooling my children."

Some one once said, "There is no free lunch." I gues the message missed the granit state. One day this chicken will come home to roost!

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I remember the expression...
"There is nothing fair about taxes, just some taxes are less fair than others."

AW, I really enjoyed the political incorrectness of our for fathers that you posted.

Amended 1903 to provide that in order to vote or be eligible for office a person must be able to read the English language and to write.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

I remember the expression...
"There is nothing fair about taxes, just some taxes are less fair than others."

AW, I really enjoyed the political incorrectness of our for fathers that you posted.

Amended 1903 to provide that in order to vote or be eligible for office a person must be able to read the English language and to write.

That's a copy and paste from the State's website... I also found it interesting but then it was in keeping of the national attitudes of the times. You can almost see the time line of the amendments to the US Constitution along with the NH State Constitution's amendments.

Interesting that the 90th anniversary of the 19th Amendment was just a week or so ago. Women haven't been allowed to vote in this country for 100 years yet but our country is 234 years old.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

I have no problem paying taxes on my summer residence but, either let me vote on how the money is spent or let the portion of the population that uses the majority of the services pay thier proportional share.

I spend maybe a total of 50 days at my summer residence. Not only am I part time resident that doesn't send my kids to the local school, use the library, dump, etc. I live on an island so I don't have roads to plow and the fire department will only be successful in saving the property next to mine if I have a fire. Why am I carrying the same or greater load than the family that lives here full time?

To me, it comes down to one thing - a portion of the full time residents of NH (I'll admit, not all of them) want someone else to foot the bill. "No income tax!" "No sales tax!" Instead, "let's put a surtax on people's vacation home most of them are from out of state." Let's rasie the waterfront property valuations and lower the inland valuations. Most of the waterfront people are from out of state." "Let's let other towns in the state pay for schooling my children."

Some one once said, "There is no free lunch." I gues the message missed the granit state. One day this chicken will come home to roost!

You are paying based on value, like the valuation process or not. Putting the valuations aside (because we all know that the only way to truly know what your house is worth is to sell it), your tax rate is not based on the level of service you receive or use but instead on the level that is available. It is no different than the elderly folks that live in the suburbs surrounding Boston, they have no kids in school but are paying for new schools (like Newton's $197M monstrosity).

The issue is that the real big guy in the sky is not going to create any new waterfront on Winnipesaukee. Frankly, I think we will see more and more people priced off the lake so that eventually only the uber-rich will be able to afford to do so. It is really no different than what has happened to many NH residents who once owned waterfront property.

You are right though, we don't want an income tax or a sales tax.