Furnace Problem ?

[jarhead0341]

I wouldn't bank on the wind being your problem with it being power vented usually they work or they don't have seen very few phantom problems like that ..... one other thing to keep in the back of your mind when its time to replace there are now direct vent boilers no chimney no power vent..... I would get your oil co back out

[bigdog]

Just to review, Some days it would run fine, then without warning signs, the furnace would go off for no apparent reason ? I was able to restart the system after several reset attempts. However, it shut off sometime early morning.

FYI, had a new burner motor, and burner motor control installed last Spring. Both found to be defective at that time.

Got the oil dealer back out to house to check the furnace system issue.
Anyway, oil dealer indicated I definitely have a power vent 'motor' problem, as the motor heats up and very hot to the touch. Sometimes you can only touch the motor casing for a few seconds because of the heat generated.

Oil dealer Tech, made many adjustments. and checked the 'Igniter' module. This part throws a serious spark into the combustion chamber which ignites the oil which is being pumped in. This checked out fine, as I watched this with my own eyes as he was testing. MAjor spark, no issues there.
He buttoned everything up, and started the furnace this time w/o any issues. He then left. That was in the morning.

By mid afternoon, I noticed the house getting cold again. I went to check the furnace, and sure enough it was out again. Called the oil dealer again, and he came right out to the house. He rechecked everything he checked earlier that morning. Last thing he checked was the Igniter module. This time there was little, almost no spark. That same morning, the spark was like a lightning bolt ! Igniter DOA ! He replaced the Igniter module with new, furnace started right up and has been running fine (crossing my fingers), ever since. Then again, it's only been 24 hrs. I'll be a believer, that the Igniter was the probable cause, if after 2 wks the furnace is still running.

FYI, I bought this property a year ago, and had a 'Home Inspector' evaluate all the systems in the house. He didn't think any issues about the furnace, then again, he didn't perform any tests on it !

Furnace is about 25 yrs old, and had all original parts So that considered things were basically overdue to happen, just because of age. Previous property owner neglected any furnace maint., tuneups, etc for years and never did a thing for upkeep to keep in best operation.

After property purchase I had a complete furnace tune-up, but nothing at the time was indicating any issues with parts failure.

Hopefully, the furnace mystery has been solved, with the replacement of 'Igniter' module, but still have concerns about the longevity of the 'power vent'.

Praying for Spring and warming temperatures!

BD

[SIKSUKR]

I wouldn't expect an inspector to find a problem with your furnace with the situation you described. An intermitent problem is just that, hit or miss. I should have thought of your as I just had my tech at my house to clean my oil fired FHW furnace. He looked at the spark coming off my igniter and showed me how it was very marginal. My igter itself was fine but this showed that my transformer was getting near its end. I could keep using it till it totally died but it was going to happen sooner or later and probably when I was gone for the weekend right? I had him change it out. I should have thought of this as being a possible issue for you. Sounds like you found the problem.

[Kamper]

I had a problem with my ignitor a few years back but forgot all about it until you said that was a likely culprit. I could not get my furnace to go on by hitting the 'reset' though. Since it was not freezing weather I had to wait a couple days for the technician which was not a major issue at that time.

The most frustrating part of the affair was the first thing the technician did was hit the reset button and the darned thing worked! Since he was there he said he'd check things out in more detail. He called me down about 15 minutes later and said watch this...

He had the ignitor coil module in his hand and there were two spring contact abut 3-4 inches apart. He laid a screw driver on one and brought it towards the other. When the blade was about 1/4-1/2 inch from the contact a spark jumped between the two. Apparently if the coil had been working correctly it would have spaked about and inch and a half out. The new part filled the hole but apeared to have spacing engineered into it because after 50 years they had been able to design the coil to be a lot smaller.

The next thing to go a couple years later was the blower on the ignition unit. Same thing, smaller part with a plate to fill the space. That's probably going to be your next thing to go so when you have service again ask the tech if he can inspect it closely and maybe check the resistance, or however they test blower motors.

Good luck with your furnace!

[bigdog]

SIKSUKR
Ignitier spark was marginal but OK, during first test, the Technician performed early in the morning, but when he came back later in the afternoon, after furnace went out again, there was litterally little if any spark, DOA !
Igniter was replaced Monday, today is Sat., and furnace appears to be running OK, at least it hasn't shudown, since new Igniter part was replaced.

You mentioned 'Transformer' ? That was replaced last Fall 2010.
So you're saying a bad Transformer will affect the amount of spark the Igniter module will create?

Kamper
My Burner Technician did that same test you described with Iignitor coil. LaMy tech did same, laying a screw driver across the 2 coil elemnets, to test the spark. Origianl Igniter proed to have no spark. Replacement Igniter spark was at least 1". Seem to do the trick.

As far as blower motor, replaced that previous Jan (2010) ! $$$


Thanks guys for all the valuable info., much appreciaited!

BD

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by bigdog

SIKSUKR

You mentioned 'Transformer' ? That was replaced last Fall 2010.
So you're saying a bad Transformer will affect the amount of spark the Igniter module will create?

BD

Oh yes. The transformer gives the ignitor, which is basically like a spark plug, the necessary voltage to generate that spark. It puts out somewhere around 10,000 volts.

[bigdog]

More furnace issues..... Or maybe just the same one?
FYI, this is an oil furnace heating by FHW.

Furnace just has never really never woked smoothly, for any long length of time. By that I mean like 2-3 weeks time. Over the winter, I've spent over $1000 on labor and parts, and I'm probably underestimating...

Since last year, I think I've replaced all the major components on the furnace, including 'powerr venter'. Latest issue was noticed upon recent arrival to house, after a one week absence. Furnace was off, so I pushed the 'reset button' on furnace, and it came on first attempt. Prior to this, thermostats on both floors of house were set around 55 degrees. After furnace came on, I set the thermostats at 60 degrees, and have left there. That was 2 days ago.

Just went to draw hot water and noticed it was 'luke-warm' !
Checked furnace, and it was 'off' ! @$*(@^$_*(@^*$_@*(^$#&*(^$*
Anyway, hit reset and furnace came on again.

I've had two different oil dealers service this furnace in the last year and a half. I've changed oil dealers b/c I didn't like the service I was given for one reason or another. Enough said ! These guys are suppose to be the
so-called experts, that's why they charge you $80-100 per hour.

I've explained the issue with furnace shutting down, to both oil dealers, and they both completely checked thw system, and cannot identify what is causing furnace to shut down at any given time.?

TG is Spingtime, and not threat of freezing can occur, especially when I may be away from property.

Probably going to seek another oil dealer service, maybe a third source will have a better idea, about furnace shutdown for no reason ?

#1 - Has anyone on the Forum experienced furnace issues as I've described?

#2 - Shouldn't I be able to lower my furnace to say 50-55 degree,
without the furnace shutting off? Or is there possibly some type fo 'low-limit' swithch on furnaces, that will shut down system automatically, if it reaches a low temp?

Any help or information is greatly apprecaited !

BD

[Rusty]

Did your service people check the photo cell to see if it was dirty or not working? This will shut your burner down if not working properly or dirty. It will startup and run for an extended period of time but will shut down if it doesn’t see a flame.
If your burner is running rich it will clog up the photocell eye and shut the burner down. You can tell if your burner is running rich by looking at the nozzle and the cage around the nozzle. If they are black with soot it could cause a problem with the eye.

As you know the way oil burners work is oil is sprayed through a nozzle at high pressure (at least 100 psig) and is ignited by an electric spark from a high voltage transformer.
Once the oil starts burning there is either a photo cell to detect light from the flame or a thermostat in the stack (chimney) that detects heat from the fire and needs to see it within a certain period of time (usually 45) seconds or it will shut the burner off.
If the flame is not established the circuitry on the control properly called the "Primary" will activate an electric heater on a thermal relay that will pop open after the 45 second time period. After this happens you have to reset the control (after it cools) and you have another 45 seconds.
Newer controls may have an electronic system that gives you like 2 tries to get the oil burner started before it gives up then you must follow a procedure to clear the fault.

[bigdog]

Thanks Rusty, very informative feedback.

I know I don't have a thermostat in the stack chimney, so where is this "photo cell" located?

FYI, I have a fairly new Honeywell Primary Oil Control (R7184U) 9 months old, and Beckett Ignitor module, less than 3 mos. old. Contacts adjusted at time of installation.

Not sure if Ignitor or control chamber, or stack full os soot? Would think oil dealer(s) would have checked those things at the time parts were replaced
They're the experts right? I'm just the consumer, writing the checks !

Is the 'photo cell' located in or around the furnace chamber, or maybe in the
"Primary Oil Control " housing?

Thanks,
BD

[ITD]

If the reset is tripped, then it is either not lighting or going out some time after it lights. I'd check the photo cell as Rusty suggests, make sure all connections are good (pull on wires that are in connectors (gently), they should not pull out of the connectors). Other problem could be air getting in the oil line, but the system would probably not restart if this were happening. If the photo eye is sooted up then the burner is not set correctly and needs to be adjusted. Obviously you've checked that you have enough oil in the tank.......

[ITD]

Manual on your controller.... http://www.forwardthinking.honeywell...ll/69_1459.pdf

Don't blow yourself up...

[bigdog]

Thanks ITD for link on Honeywell Controller.

BTW, the last time I hit reset button, I held in for about 10 seconds then released. After about 15-20 seconds the burner kiked on and a huge blast of black smoke, came out my power venter. I suspect as a reults of an accumulation of oil in the combustion chamber. Next time, I'll just hit the reset button and release immediately ! Can you say KA-BOOM ! Not funny !

FYI, service tech also replace wom type of swithc on the power vent recently. As you know, if the power venter is not working, you'll NEVER start the furnace. It's a built-in safety feature. Darn powere ventors, I hate them, lots of trouble.

Also, which I didn't mention, is the furnace is located in a small outside room
(8x3) attached to the main building, but definitely separate. Have been told that this furnace room space, may not be getting enough air-flow exchange into the area, which could cause a shut-down of furnace. Also I guess a possibility ? Sort of makes ense ?

Will check wires in control module and photo cell next.

Thanks,
BD

[ITD]

From what you are describing I would suspect the ignitor system. The electrodes have to be located properly with the proper gap for the burner to light correctly, sounds like you have replaced most of the other parts although sometimes you get infant mortality.

If it were an issue with the power vent, the burner would not get the chance to light so the reset button would not get the chance to trip.

My guess anyway.

Page 5 of this manual shows the measurements for this particular model burner. It's important that they measure this with a gage or a ruler, a lot of guys just eyeball it......... I wouldn't mess with this unless you know how to open the burner up, but I wouldn't hesitate to look over the guy's shoulder and ask questions.

http://www.beckettcorp.com/protect/t...AF%20R0803.pdf

[bigdog]

ITD... FYI... the Ignitor module was repalced less than 3 mos ago. As you mentioned the space between the Ignitor terminals needs to be calibrated fairly accurately.

I think my service tech just 'eye-balled', as you described. He told me at the time, that he was the expert, and had been doing this for over 30 yrs, so didn't need to use gage. I took away arrogance from that remark !

"Ok" was my answer. Who was I to tell the expert how to do his job, or question his ability and experience, what do I know ! Well maybe he got the terminals gapped correctly, and maybe he didn't?

I'll check the Ignitor box for soot, and also check photo cell and clean.
I see on page# 5 where electrode terminals are described. I'm assuming there's a special tool you need to use to set that gap?

Thanks,
BD

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by bigdog

ITD... FYI... the Ignitor module was repalced less than 3 mos ago. As you mentioned the space between the Ignitor terminals needs to be calibrated fairly accurately.

I think my service tech just 'eye-balled', as you described. He told me at the time, that he was the expert, and had been doing this for over 30 yrs, so didn't need to use gage. I took away arrogance from that remark !

"Ok" was my answer. Who was I to tell the expert how to do his job, or question his ability and experience, what do I know ! Well maybe he got the terminals gapped correctly, and maybe he didn't?

I'll check the Ignitor box for soot, and also check photo cell and clean.I see on page# 5 where electrode terminals are described. I'm assuming there's a special tool you need to use to set that gap?

Thanks,
BD

I have a Carlin burner and it is under the transformer/primary control. When you flip it up you can see the CAD cell and it looks like this:

[VitaBene]

Rusty has given you some great info.

Unfortunately, it seems like your technicians are not diagnosing the problem, but instead are throwing parts at it. This is usually a sign of someone who lacks good troubleshooting skills, perhaps you need to try a different company?

[RLW]

Originally Posted by bigdog

ITD... FYI... the Ignitor module was repalced less than 3 mos ago. As you mentioned the space between the Ignitor terminals needs to be calibrated fairly accurately.

I think my service tech just 'eye-balled', as you described. He told me at the time, that he was the expert, and had been doing this for over 30 yrs, so didn't need to use gage. I took away arrogance from that remark !

"Ok" was my answer. Who was I to tell the expert how to do his job, or question his ability and experience, what do I know ! Well maybe he got the terminals gapped correctly, and maybe he didn't?

I'll check the Ignitor box for soot, and also check photo cell and clean.
I see on page# 5 where electrode terminals are described. I'm assuming there's a special tool you need to use to set that gap?

Thanks,
BD

If you had a half a** tech come into your house to service your burner 99.9% of all the suggestions given would have bee checked for proper service. I'm not sure there really is such a person as an EXPERT burner servicemen. Time makes knowledge, but defiantly not and expert.

[bigdog]

ITW,

Couldn't agree with your comments more.......

Spent a lot of $$$ and getiing half-***** service.

Hopefully, the next "new guys" on site will resolve my issue. That's a big TBD.

BD

[SPT13]

Bigdog,
have you called Weil McLean at all? I had a situation like yours yrs ago and after watching guys change parts and having the same issues I called the manufacturer. I told them the problem, and they recommended a local guy who knew the furnace like the back of his hand. He had me up and running soon with no issues. Good luck!