canoe tipping question

DickR · 09-09-2011, 10:13 AM

When my kids were in their pre-teen/early teen years, they and their friends would have a great time capsizing our 17' Grumman (aluminum) canoe in relatively shallow water. They would swim underneath into the air pocket, and those of us on shore could hear their conversations underneath the hull.

Yes, a canoe full of water is heavy, so obviously one doesn't lift it out of the water, then turn it over to dump the water. In water shallow enough to stand on the bottom, two people can refloat the canoe, almost empty of water. All they have to do is rotate the canoe slowly on its long axis, with one edge clear of the water, while lifting. The hull is essentially rotated up and out of the water without lifting any of the water. If the canoe is completely upside down to start, simply rotate the hull to bring one edge up out of the water, then lift the hull slowly clear of the surface, then flip it quickly back onto the surface.

Trying to do this in water too deep for standing on the bottom and without the aid of a second canoe to provide lift would be quite difficult. The 17' Grumman weighs 75 pounds, so two adults would have to lift 38 lb each. Doing that through scissor-kicking in the water seems elusive. I wonder if two large adults could push the hull up and empty enough with a sudden upward thrust. Of course the upward thrust also would push the men totally under water. Could four do it? It would have to be done by whatever crew the canoe was carrying. Four to a canoe? Unlikely.

webmaster · 09-09-2011, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DickR

In water shallow enough to stand on the bottom, two people can refloat the canoe, almost empty of water. All they have to do is rotate the canoe slowly on its long axis, with one edge clear of the water, while lifting. The hull is essentially rotated up and out of the water without lifting any of the water. If the canoe is completely upside down to start, simply rotate the hull to bring one edge up out of the water, then lift the hull slowly clear of the surface, then flip it quickly back onto the surface.

When I was earning my Canoeing Merit Badge at Camp Sachem we practiced that exact technique. With another canoe to help we could easily right and empty a canoe in deep water. We would flip the canoes intentionally just to practice righting them.

jmen24 · 09-09-2011, 11:46 AM

I have to say that I am a little concerned over some of the responses in this thread. The use of "fun" , "not a big deal", "easy", etc., should never be used when discussing how to properly train yourself in a rescue situation.

It is fun to go out and mess around, roll out of the boat and do other things, that are similar to an emergency situation. But, I can tell you from personal experience and listening to the experiences of paddlers far more advanced than myself, that an unitentional dump in an unplanned area and time, is not fun, at all! The great thing about an actual training course is that you are put into a situation that you are not comfortable with and then forced to deal with the situation, using tools you have been taught. Playing around with camp mates, friends or siblings, does nothing to prepare you for the feeling of dumping unitentionally.

The "where am I" feeling, "where are my boat mates" feeling, "what am I going to do", "how am I going to fix this", "I need to calm this person down". Also if you are solo, but have many other people in the area, you need to add the "I am all set, but how do I keep that person from trying to help, because I know what I need or want to do and they are messing that up". These are the thoughts that race through your head in the first 5 seconds.

Proper training elimates the worry of answering those questions, because before you realize what happened you are already performing the first tasks needed to aid in a clean rescue of yourself.

Repeating the exact same type of rescue prepares you for repeating the exact same type of rescue, the exact moment when you realize that what you are experiencing resembles absolutely nothing with "all those times we practiced tipping the canoe" is when panic sets in and bad choices are selected that make your life harder than it needs to be.

Hate to be a Debby Downer, because the sport is so much fun, but sometimes things need to be taken seriously and not so much as fun. The experience could literally mean the difference between a good ending and a bad.

Dave R · 09-09-2011, 03:30 PM

I think the current Canoe tipping rate is 20%, if the service is really good, just like all the other restaurants around the lake.

rick35 · 09-09-2011, 04:23 PM

We always have our PFDs on so that's one less thing to worry about. Tipping over without it would make for a very tense situation. But we see people going by not wearing their PFDs all the time.

SteveA · 09-09-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

I think the current Canoe tipping rate is 20%, if the service is really good, just like all the other restaurants around the lake.

You beat me to the Joke.

Seriously, this thread like so many here has great information.

pcmc · 09-09-2011, 08:55 PM

Thankyou Everyone !!!
Please keep the education coming, I have a lot to learn. You are all offering very useful information that can help everyone.
There are some helpful youtube videos, but nothing that would take the place of an instructer's course.
Thanks again!

bkgoodman · 09-09-2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcmc

There are some helpful youtube videos, but nothing that would take the place of an instructer's course.
Thanks again!

Hmmm....You've kind of touched a nerve of mine!

I've taken a lot of courses - Power Squadron, USCG Auxiliary, and of course the NH State mandated stuff. My criticism of these are all the same:

They are all "text book", and I think they give you a false sense of really knowing what to do in an emergency. The example I always cite is teaching you to "Call Mayday on Channel 16 in case of an emergency".

Now, I took my Wife to one of these courses to learn these basics so she'd know what to do if the need arises. In reality however, I believe this kind of "text book" knowledge gives you are *false* sense of security.

For example - does she know how to turn the radio ON? Does she know how to adjust the squelch? Does she know how to change the channel? Does she know the antenna needs to be raised? Does she know how to raise it?

My point is - I'm definitely not going to say one *shouldn't* use the "formal" education system. However, don't be lulled into a false-sense of security about it. It is no replacement for real-world, on-the-water practice and drills.

jmen24 · 09-10-2011, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

Hmmm....You've kind of touched a nerve of mine!

I've taken a lot of courses - Power Squadron, USCG Auxiliary, and of course the NH State mandated stuff. My criticism of these are all the same:

They are all "text book", and I think they give you a false sense of really knowing what to do in an emergency. The example I always cite is teaching you to "Call Mayday on Channel 16 in case of an emergency".

Now, I took my Wife to one of these courses to learn these basics so she'd know what to do if the need arises. In reality however, I believe this kind of "text book" knowledge gives you are *false* sense of security.

For example - does she know how to turn the radio ON? Does she know how to adjust the squelch? Does she know how to change the channel? Does she know the antenna needs to be raised? Does she know how to raise it?

My point is - I'm definitely not going to say one *shouldn't* use the "formal" education system. However, don't be lulled into a false-sense of security about it. It is no replacement for real-world, on-the-water practice and drills.

Take a swift water rescue course and a white water course, then report back on the amount of practical vs. text book.

He's talking about canoeing, the instruction should be appropriate to the activity.

camp guy · 09-10-2011, 10:14 AM

Honestly, I think this question has been answered way more than necessary, I'm afraid that if too many more answers surface "pcmc" will be scared away from canoeing feeling that it is too technical. In "jmen24" last post, last sentence, he hits the nail on the head. Amen.

VitaBene · 09-09-2011, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

I think the current Canoe tipping rate is 20%, if the service is really good, just like all the other restaurants around the lake.

The Lake Region Sail and Power Squadron just had our meeting there tonight. The service there is always worth 20% plus!

John A. Birdsall · 09-10-2011, 10:29 AM

I had a used 13' sailboat and it turned over on me, I could not upright it by myself. When I got it too shore, I got rid of it. Last weekend I tried my neighbors Kayak, I got out about 60' from shore and it turned over, that got pushed back in, emptied and put away. I don't think them type of boats like me, I think the Kayak was laughing at me. Now back to the pontoon boat where I feel stable.

Have really enjoyed this thread lots of good information, but I am not gonna try that again.

MikeF-NH · 09-10-2011, 12:14 PM

If your kids are younger than teens, I would never take the canoe more than a few hundred feet from some. Most "interesting" things are close to shore anyhow and being way out in the middle is no fun. Being close to shore makes it much easier to simply swim the canoe to shore and use the techniques described above to empty and right it. That said, I've used a canoe for over 20 years and never come close to swamping it. The trick is don't over load. Two adults and 2 pre-teens in a 16 footer is asking for it. The kids won't sit still and will be in the middle of the canoe where they are more likely to shift from side to side (especially if something interesting is seen on one side). Two people in a canoe is best IMHO.

Secondly, sitting on the seats raises your center of gravity and makes the canoe less stable. Have paddlers kneel and nobody should sit on the twarts or if there is a middle seat, use it as a back rest not a seat. The best way to work with capsizing emergencies is to prevent them.

Also all kids under 16 are required to wear a PFD. If you are wondering away from shore, everyone should wear one. Enough on prevention:

Avoiding panic and having a "drill" on how people react is key. In an example of this past weekend when I showed my youngest (10) how to react if he tips over his kayak (first kayak try), I first wanted him to understand that if he can't show me how not to panic, he doesn't ride period. We spent 20 minutes in shallow water tipping the yak then emptying and repeat to a point where it was fun for him. I had to tip him the first time but by the end he was tipping himself. After understanding how to exit the craft without panic, we talked about "now what?". On the pond we were on, there was only a small stretch of shoreline that wasn't muck and reeds. Whereever he was on this pond, he would have to swim the yak back to the solid beach to right it. I explained it wasn't a race and the yak and PFD would keep him floating...just start swimming...you'll get there. He never did tip over that day but I felt very confident that if he did, he would come up smiling and we would be able to get the yak back.

Handling a canoe or yak is much like a bicycle. It seems unstable and easy to tip when first using but once you ride it for a while, it seems that it would be very hard to go over. The more time your family spends in the canoe, the less chance it will tip. For the first season, keep close to shore and in safe (warm water) conditions. Don't venture away from shore and protected coves until you feel everyone knows what to do and has practices the response to your satisfaction. Target small lakes and ponds with limited power boats on them. They are more fun and less hectic and you only have to worry about yourself. If the family is really really getting into it, take them down the Saco (you can rent an extra canoe from Saco bound if you like) for a day trip. It's shallow and easy to paddle and basically a long beach with sandy bottom. The stretch from Saco bound to the dam should be loads of fun or from the dam to Brownfield bridge. Arrange drop off/pick up with Saco bound.

Kamper · 09-10-2011, 01:33 PM

It's fun to practice tipping over, in shallow water. You also learn how well the flotation functions!

You can also have a contest to see who can put their life-jacket on first when already in water that's over their heads. People are usually surprised at how much effort it is.

09-09-2011, 11:46 AM	#3
jmen24 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,139 Thanks: 223 Thanked 319 Times in 181 Posts	A little concerned. I have to say that I am a little concerned over some of the responses in this thread. The use of "fun" , "not a big deal", "easy", etc., should never be used when discussing how to properly train yourself in a rescue situation. It is fun to go out and mess around, roll out of the boat and do other things, that are similar to an emergency situation. But, I can tell you from personal experience and listening to the experiences of paddlers far more advanced than myself, that an unitentional dump in an unplanned area and time, is not fun, at all! The great thing about an actual training course is that you are put into a situation that you are not comfortable with and then forced to deal with the situation, using tools you have been taught. Playing around with camp mates, friends or siblings, does nothing to prepare you for the feeling of dumping unitentionally. The "where am I" feeling, "where are my boat mates" feeling, "what am I going to do", "how am I going to fix this", "I need to calm this person down". Also if you are solo, but have many other people in the area, you need to add the "I am all set, but how do I keep that person from trying to help, because I know what I need or want to do and they are messing that up". These are the thoughts that race through your head in the first 5 seconds. Proper training elimates the worry of answering those questions, because before you realize what happened you are already performing the first tasks needed to aid in a clean rescue of yourself. Repeating the exact same type of rescue prepares you for repeating the exact same type of rescue, the exact moment when you realize that what you are experiencing resembles absolutely nothing with "all those times we practiced tipping the canoe" is when panic sets in and bad choices are selected that make your life harder than it needs to be. Hate to be a Debby Downer, because the sport is so much fun, but sometimes things need to be taken seriously and not so much as fun. The experience could literally mean the difference between a good ending and a bad.

09-10-2011, 10:14 AM	#10
camp guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro Posts: 1,183 Thanks: 301 Thanked 525 Times in 293 Posts	Canoe tipping question Honestly, I think this question has been answered way more than necessary, I'm afraid that if too many more answers surface "pcmc" will be scared away from canoeing feeling that it is too technical. In "jmen24" last post, last sentence, he hits the nail on the head. Amen.

09-10-2011, 10:29 AM	#12
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	not to be a downer I had a used 13' sailboat and it turned over on me, I could not upright it by myself. When I got it too shore, I got rid of it. Last weekend I tried my neighbors Kayak, I got out about 60' from shore and it turned over, that got pushed back in, emptied and put away. I don't think them type of boats like me, I think the Kayak was laughing at me. Now back to the pontoon boat where I feel stable. Have really enjoyed this thread lots of good information, but I am not gonna try that again.

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09-09-2011, 10:13 AM	#1
DickR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 751 Thanks: 4 Thanked 259 Times in 171 Posts	When my kids were in their pre-teen/early teen years, they and their friends would have a great time capsizing our 17' Grumman (aluminum) canoe in relatively shallow water. They would swim underneath into the air pocket, and those of us on shore could hear their conversations underneath the hull. Yes, a canoe full of water is heavy, so obviously one doesn't lift it out of the water, then turn it over to dump the water. In water shallow enough to stand on the bottom, two people can refloat the canoe, almost empty of water. All they have to do is rotate the canoe slowly on its long axis, with one edge clear of the water, while lifting. The hull is essentially rotated up and out of the water without lifting any of the water. If the canoe is completely upside down to start, simply rotate the hull to bring one edge up out of the water, then lift the hull slowly clear of the surface, then flip it quickly back onto the surface. Trying to do this in water too deep for standing on the bottom and without the aid of a second canoe to provide lift would be quite difficult. The 17' Grumman weighs 75 pounds, so two adults would have to lift 38 lb each. Doing that through scissor-kicking in the water seems elusive. I wonder if two large adults could push the hull up and empty enough with a sudden upward thrust. Of course the upward thrust also would push the men totally under water. Could four do it? It would have to be done by whatever crew the canoe was carrying. Four to a canoe? Unlikely.

The Following User Says Thank You to DickR For This Useful Post:
pcmc (09-09-2011)

09-09-2011, 03:30 PM	#4
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,985 Thanks: 246 Thanked 744 Times in 444 Posts	I think the current Canoe tipping rate is 20%, if the service is really good, just like all the other restaurants around the lake.

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post:
jmen24 (09-09-2011), Meredith lady (09-13-2011), SteveA (09-09-2011), VitaBene (09-09-2011)

09-09-2011, 04:23 PM	#5
rick35 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bear Island/Merrimack Posts: 807 Thanks: 58 Thanked 203 Times in 130 Posts	We always have our PFDs on so that's one less thing to worry about. Tipping over without it would make for a very tense situation. But we see people going by not wearing their PFDs all the time.

09-09-2011, 08:55 PM	#7
pcmc Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 412 Thanks: 211 Thanked 106 Times in 73 Posts	Thankyou Everyone !!! Please keep the education coming, I have a lot to learn. You are all offering very useful information that can help everyone. There are some helpful youtube videos, but nothing that would take the place of an instructer's course. Thanks again!

09-10-2011, 12:14 PM	#13
MikeF-NH Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 318 Thanks: 2 Thanked 120 Times in 80 Posts	If your kids are younger than teens, I would never take the canoe more than a few hundred feet from some. Most "interesting" things are close to shore anyhow and being way out in the middle is no fun. Being close to shore makes it much easier to simply swim the canoe to shore and use the techniques described above to empty and right it. That said, I've used a canoe for over 20 years and never come close to swamping it. The trick is don't over load. Two adults and 2 pre-teens in a 16 footer is asking for it. The kids won't sit still and will be in the middle of the canoe where they are more likely to shift from side to side (especially if something interesting is seen on one side). Two people in a canoe is best IMHO. Secondly, sitting on the seats raises your center of gravity and makes the canoe less stable. Have paddlers kneel and nobody should sit on the twarts or if there is a middle seat, use it as a back rest not a seat. The best way to work with capsizing emergencies is to prevent them. Also all kids under 16 are required to wear a PFD. If you are wondering away from shore, everyone should wear one. Enough on prevention: Avoiding panic and having a "drill" on how people react is key. In an example of this past weekend when I showed my youngest (10) how to react if he tips over his kayak (first kayak try), I first wanted him to understand that if he can't show me how not to panic, he doesn't ride period. We spent 20 minutes in shallow water tipping the yak then emptying and repeat to a point where it was fun for him. I had to tip him the first time but by the end he was tipping himself. After understanding how to exit the craft without panic, we talked about "now what?". On the pond we were on, there was only a small stretch of shoreline that wasn't muck and reeds. Whereever he was on this pond, he would have to swim the yak back to the solid beach to right it. I explained it wasn't a race and the yak and PFD would keep him floating...just start swimming...you'll get there. He never did tip over that day but I felt very confident that if he did, he would come up smiling and we would be able to get the yak back. Handling a canoe or yak is much like a bicycle. It seems unstable and easy to tip when first using but once you ride it for a while, it seems that it would be very hard to go over. The more time your family spends in the canoe, the less chance it will tip. For the first season, keep close to shore and in safe (warm water) conditions. Don't venture away from shore and protected coves until you feel everyone knows what to do and has practices the response to your satisfaction. Target small lakes and ponds with limited power boats on them. They are more fun and less hectic and you only have to worry about yourself. If the family is really really getting into it, take them down the Saco (you can rent an extra canoe from Saco bound if you like) for a day trip. It's shallow and easy to paddle and basically a long beach with sandy bottom. The stretch from Saco bound to the dam should be loads of fun or from the dam to Brownfield bridge. Arrange drop off/pick up with Saco bound.

09-10-2011, 01:33 PM	#14
Kamper Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Thornton's Ferry Posts: 1,306 Thanks: 67 Thanked 171 Times in 127 Posts	It's fun to practice tipping over, in shallow water. You also learn how well the flotation functions! You can also have a contest to see who can put their life-jacket on first when already in water that's over their heads. People are usually surprised at how much effort it is.