Oil to Propane Conversion Cost?

[songkrai]

500 gallon propane tanks and 1000 propane tanks are buried all of the time.

It is possible that in some towns this may not be allowed. Or specific area was too close to well, property line, or wetlands.

[BroadHopper]

Natural gas are trading at a low cost. There is a 90 year supply of natural gas in the good ol' USA. PSNH have converted all coal and oil plants to natural gas except for the Bow plant. I was told that was going to be converted as well. The railroad will close the Bow line as PSNH is their biggest customer. A natural gas line needs to be built from Portsmouth and Portsmouth is making plans to build a bigger facility. Most of the natural gas for NH and VT are piped from Portland. There is a natural gas line proposal from Canada to Texas.

The automobile manufacturers have test vehicles on the road burning natural gas. With low BTU rating, the cars/trucks have a very limited range. I was told that to fill a car with LNG for range requires an overnight filling.

Natural gas is a serious contender for the future.

[songkrai]

A couple of years old.
Statistics can vary from the bias of the source.

"Propane is a domestically produced fossil fuel, to the extent that our refineries use domestic crude oil. It also burns cleaner at the home than oil, but it’s overall environmental costs are a mixture of Crude Oil, and, to a lesser extent, Natural Gas.

The big problem with Propane is it’s cost when using Propane as a heating fuel. In Maine, Propane currently costs $3.04 per gallon (based on the Maine Office of Energy Independence July 2011) while heating oil costs $3.66. Propane in this case sounds like the lower cost solution until you realize that there are fewer BTU’s per gallon in Propane than Oil. When you correct for that, Propane costs 26% more than Oil."


LINK

[songkrai]

The "Munchkin" story.

Munchkin is a brand of boiler produced/marketed in Fairhaven, Massachusetts.

An acquaintance of mine purchased a new lakefront home. Built by one of the largest best known builders on the lake. Name of builder begins with the letter "S".

This home had a Munchkin boiler and as I recall propane. The home had hot air heat. So the boiler fed a couple of large radiators and fans.

The 2nd winter. No heat in middle of winter. Through the original builder the original installer of Munchkin was called for repairs. The homeowner, concerned with breakdowns ordered a 2nd Munchkin. To run in case the other malfunctioned again. All installed by the original plumber/heating contractor. Some sort of alternating "switch" or valve would turn one on if the other stopped.

Then - no heat. Both broke. A telephone call to original installer - gets going again. Then no heat. A call to original installer - and this time no reply. Again, and again. No reply.

Then a call to Munchkin in Fairhaven, Massachusetts. Munchkins reply was to telephone the original installer. No response. No one else in area would attempt to fix. So another telephone call to Munchkin. This time homeowner wanted to take the boiler directly to the Munchkin factory to have them fix it. No, "we don't actually fix the boilers here" was the response. Call the original installer as he is the only authorized repair person.

Both Munchkins were removed and a brand name boiler was installed.

A look at the Munchkin web site shows a completely different boiler. Maybe all has been changed and fixed. Maybe.

[BroadHopper]

The link does not take into consideration the efficiency of the appliance. The most efficient oil burners are 80% as oppose to 95% for gas. Also efficient gas appliances runs at a rate where it is most efficient by taking into consideration outside air temperature and how fast the temperature drops in the dwelling. Oil is either full on or full off.

Oil has a very limited life. I would prefer to switch now while the energy credits are there rather than wait until there are no credits and oil is gone.

[BroadHopper]

I would love to buy local, i never did care for Munchkins, even the Dunkin's one.

I did have a Burnham boiler as a new install once. It gave out on the first winter. The boiler itself cracked. Since the builder gave me a 10 year HOW warrantee on the dwelling, the boiler was quickly replaced.

Today, you will be lucky to get a 1 year HOW warrantee from a local builder.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Today, you will be lucky to get a 1 year HOW warrantee from a local builder.

Luck has nothing too with it! NH law requires 1 year warranty, if a repair is required and the builder refuses, hire someone else to do the repair and send the original builder the bill. If they refuse to pay that, then take them to court and force them to pay or have a lien placed against them. You have to allow them the first option to remedy the situation, even if you can't stand to look at the builder anymore.

A year is not a long time, but it is something and there are quite a few contractors that offer warranties greater than a year. Also, help yourself out and have the installation verified that it has been done to manufacturer spec, this way you have further protection down the road if you need to go after the manufacturer for a material warranty.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

The link does not take into consideration the efficiency of the appliance. The most efficient oil burners are 80% as oppose to 95% for gas. Also efficient gas appliances runs at a rate where it is most efficient by taking into consideration outside air temperature and how fast the temperature drops in the dwelling. Oil is either full on or full off.

Oil has a very limited life. I would prefer to switch now while the energy credits are there rather than wait until there are no credits and oil is gone.

Adjusted the chart (Fuel price calculator) in my link for current price per NHOEP and compensated price for efficiency, 83% for Oil boiler and 95% for Gas, (Newer oil condensing units are above 90% but I stuck with conventional).

Fuel Type	Fuel Unit	Fuel Price Per Unit (dollars)	Fuel Heat Content Per Unit (Btu)	Fuel Price Per Million Btu (dollars)	Adjust for efficiency
Fuel Oil (#2)	Gallon	$3.79	138,690	$27.31	$32.91	83%
Propane	Gallon	$3.15	91,333	$34.50	$36.32	95%
Kerosene	Gallon	$4.06	135,000	$30.07
Natural Gas	Therm	$1.77	100,000	$17.70
Wood (Pellets)	Ton	$249.00	16,500,000	$15.09
Wood (Cord)	Cord	$210.00	20,000,000	$10.50
Electricity	Kilowatt-hour	$0.150	3,412	$43.96

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by ITD

Adjusted the chart (Fuel price calculator) in my link for current price per NHOEP and compensated price for efficiency, 83% for Oil boiler and 95% for Gas, (Newer oil condensing units are above 90% but I stuck with conventional).

Good info, but not a comparison for today's market. I got pricing for the last three years based on what my estimated usage would be from 3 local providers and found the highest overall was $2.79. To pay $3.15 you are not using enough. I was paying about that for low annual usage in a gas log, gas grill, gas stove and backup generator.

[Sunbeam lodge]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Good info, but not a comparison for today's market. I got pricing for the last three years based on what my estimated usage would be from 3 local providers and found the highest overall was $2.79. To pay $3.15 you are not using enough. I was paying about that for low annual usage in a gas log, gas grill, gas stove and backup generator.

Just paid $4.34 for 50 gallons from Rymes The tank holds 100 gallons

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by ITD

Adjusted the chart (Fuel price calculator) in my link for current price per NHOEP and compensated price for efficiency, 83% for Oil boiler and 95% for Gas, (Newer oil condensing units are above 90% but I stuck with conventional).

This confirms what I figured out 16 years ago....I heat with my pellet stove and NG furnace and I've been getting my pellets for under $200 per ton every year.
BT

[boat_guy64]

2400 sq ft house
4 zones
Laars boiler
$6600

I used Irving to do the work. I called several local plumbing companies but only one ever called back and they said that they were too busy to provide a quote. Irving handled the whole thing very professionally and did a very neat job of the plumbing. (Much neater than the original installer)

[NoBozo]

Natural Gas ..Propane..whatever: I like the NEWS when a GAS supplied house BLOWS UP in a Spectacular Manner and maybe takes out the house next door. I don't remember this happening with oil heat. Just sayin. NB

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

This confirms what I figured out 16 years ago....I heat with my pellet stove and NG furnace and I've been getting my pellets for under $200 per ton every year.
BT

Yes, we get over half of our house heat from the pellet stove, averaging about $200/ton over several years. That is about 1/2 the price of oil per delivered BTU.

My take is that oil vs propane is pretty much a wash so converting from one to the other will take from a long time to infinity to pay off. My concern about propane is the Kaboom factor. While it is rare for a propane heated house to blow, it does happen. I have never heard of a house blowing up from #2 oil fumes.

[HellRaZoR004]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

Yes, we get over half of our house heat from the pellet stove, averaging about $200/ton over several years. That is about 1/2 the price of oil per delivered BTU.

My take is that oil vs propane is pretty much a wash so converting from one to the other will take from a long time to infinity to pay off. My concern about propane is the Kaboom factor. While it is rare for a propane heated house to blow, it does happen. I have never heard of a house blowing up from #2 oil fumes.

You don't hear about propane blowing up all that often. There have been a number of Natural Gas explosions lately though. There is a big difference between the two in terms of delivery method (LP = tank, NG = line from the street).

[BroadHopper]

So you oil, pellet stove and wood fanatics heat your domestic hot water with as well as your cooking and laundry with oil, pellet or wood? Electricity is the highest on the totem pole. I will stick to natural gas for all my needs. Too many chimney fires and pellet stove malfunctions to worry about. And too many carbon monoxide cases from malfunctioned oil burners.

On the plus side for wood, you folks do have quite a work out bringing wood in from the wood pile. That is a healthy thing to do.

[ishoot308]

Just out of curiosity, with all the rage on heat pumps / mini split systems these days, has anyone done a cost comparison of adding a mini split as a supplemental heat source instead of a complete changeover? Heck they say the new heat pumps by Mitsubishi work efficiently to -10 degrees!! If I remember correctly average cost for materials and labor for a heat pump is around #1,200.00 - $1,500.00 per zone. Considering their efficiency, I would tend to think this is a very efficient and affordable alternative.

Just curious;

Dan

[DickR]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Just out of curiosity, with all the rage on heat pumps / mini split systems these days, has anyone done a cost comparison of adding a mini split as a supplemental heat source instead of a complete changeover?

Of course, the outside unit would have to be kept clear of snow, so the air can circulate through it. For operating cost, take what you'd expect for straight electric heat and divide by the COP (coefficient of performance). The COP will be best, perhaps upward of 3, when outside temperatures aren't too cold, and worst as you go further below zero, dropping below 2. The vendor's tables may be available online and should give you performance vs outside air temperature.

[dpg]

Overlake - are you sorry you asked yet?

[BroadHopper]

Information Overload

[Overlake97]

To DPG: I'm not sorry at all, as the more information the better. And I really do appreciate all the effort most posters have put toward sorting out this issue. I should say that the reason I started the post was that I did already have one quote - for $17,500 - and thought it might be on the high side. As noted in original, that was for 7 forced hot water zones (4 primarily for in-house heating) serviced by a Buderus 142 and Turbomax 23 instantaneous indirect water heater. This quote included piping to bring propane to the kitchen stove and a second fireplace (already have one Propane fireplace, which we love), and removal of our Burnham boiler and SuperStor hot water tank. So far I've seen only lower numbers (less than 10K) on cost, for the conversion alone (all "parts" and labor), but I realize those projects might not have been comparable in size.

I have a second person coming to provide an estimate tomorrow (Wed), and it's not the person Broadhopper suggested. I called "Jeff" twice now (Sat and Mon), leaving messages - and two phone numbers - on his company's very nice answering machine, and even filled out an on-line appointment form, but have yet to hear back from him (or them).

As far as current Propane costs, Fred Fuller quoted us the best price at $2.29/gal (for our expected usage) with the next closest being around $2.59 (vs. oil at about $3.96 as of Dec 31). The attached image of oil vs. propane prices shows a recent divergence favoring Propane that is supposedly due to the "shale gas revolution" (see link immediately below). Our motivation to convert is based on the belief that this divergence will continue.

http://oilandgas-investments.com/201...the-ngl-price/

The image at bottom was created via this link:
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_nus_w.htm

[BroadHopper]

I'm glad you did your homework. You also have to take into consideration the annual maintenance cost as well. Connected to a heat pump, both geo and air, you will see significant savings annually. My client in Gilmanton has her Mitsbushi system provide heat down to 20 degrees outside temperature and turns on the system 2000. That is where the engineer determines the efficiency of the two units. I was told there is software in the work that will determine the crossover based on the unit cost of the two fuels.

I'm sure PSNH did thier homework before converting to NG. PSNH is confident that they will hold prices to where they are today and possibly lower the prices should NG prices drop even lower. Folks who are looking at converting thier energy supplier from PSNH may want to find out where the energy is coming from. I am going to stick with PSNH. Once the Bow plant is converted and NG prices come down I believe PSNH will come out on top.

My ski lodge in CO is heated with LNG. It is not cheap, but on the long run it is lower than oil. At 9,000 feet I don't see the need for a heat pump.

[ITD]

Overlake, it sounds like you are installing a complete heating system vs a boiler change out. If you don't mind me asking, why not switch out the boiler only and leave the rest of the system. My superstore is guaranteed for life. At $17,000 it would take close to 20 years to pay back the investment, at $10,000 it would take over 10 years, just curious.

[BroadHopper]

I do know he is very busy, as he built up a huge clientile. He travels a lot around the North Country and as far South as Concord. There is an awfully lot of conversion to gas.

My client originally wanted geothermal and solar panels. Due to Shoreline protection act, permanent solar panels are not allowed. And because she is located near wetlands, geothermal for some reason was not feasible. Energysavers did a terrific job in evaluating and working with an engineer to develop an economical system. EnergySavers highly recomended Jeff. Jeff work is very clean, well marked, and well laid out. I've seen to many spaghetti piping by other local plumbers that claimed they are heating experts. Jeff is not a plumber.

I hope everything works out for you.

[dpg]

Overlake - just teasing you. Last winter I bought a new high efficiency boiler (Mass) which is direct vented outside. The new piping is no big deal yeah two more pipes to look at but what ever not a deal breaker for me. Before changing out the old Boiler I was on a gas payment plan for 185.00 all winter (natural gas) and my current payment is 144.00 and at that my December bill had me 230.00 to the "good" another words I'm 230.00 ahead of my usage. I used Mass Save and also got a deep discount (75%) off of an entire attic insulation job. Oh and the boiler was financed at 0% how could I say no? Good deals and incentives out there right now keep doing what you are and shop around. I found my install prices actually didn't vary too much just be sure your comparing "apples to apples" some cheaper prices also come with bargain basement equipment.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by Overlake97

To DPG: I'm not sorry at all, as the more information the better. And I really do appreciate all the effort most posters have put toward sorting out this issue. I should say that the reason I started the post was that I did already have one quote - for $17,500 - and thought it might be on the high side. As noted in original, that was for 7 forced hot water zones (4 primarily for in-house heating) serviced by a Buderus 142 and Turbomax 23 instantaneous indirect water heater. This quote included piping to bring propane to the kitchen stove and a second fireplace (already have one Propane fireplace, which we love), and removal of our Burnham boiler and SuperStor hot water tank. So far I've seen only lower numbers (less than 10K) on cost, for the conversion alone (all "parts" and labor), but I realize those projects might not have been comparable in size.

I have a second person coming to provide an estimate tomorrow (Wed), and it's not the person Broadhopper suggested. I called "Jeff" twice now (Sat and Mon), leaving messages - and two phone numbers - on his company's very nice answering machine, and even filled out an on-line appointment form, but have yet to hear back from him (or them).

As far as current Propane costs, Fred Fuller quoted us the best price at $2.29/gal (for our expected usage) with the next closest being around $2.59 (vs. oil at about $3.96 as of Dec 31). The attached image of oil vs. propane prices shows a recent divergence favoring Propane that is supposedly due to the "shale gas revolution" (see link immediately below). Our motivation to convert is based on the belief that this divergence will continue.

http://oilandgas-investments.com/201...the-ngl-price/

The image at bottom was created via this link:
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_nus_w.htm

What is the payback in years?
After all costs of purchase and installation.

Or if money is not the object of this exercise then of course all is fine and OK.

[Overlake97]

So many people weighed in on this project that I thought I'd post an update, even though it's been a while.

We ended up having a Baxi Luna (HT) high efficiency propane boiler installed. Jay Brittain did the work, as he provided the best estimate and I trusted him (He had done some smaller jobs for me in the past). I had four (4) estimates range from a high of $18,000 to just under 10K, which is about what I paid Jay for the conversion.

Interestingly, everyone had their pet product to push. Jeff Seymore, who was recommended by Broadhopper (I think), would only install Munchkins, another guy swore by Buderus, and almost everyone had something bad to say about everyone else's preferred boiler. Fred Fuller ended up being our propane supplier (best price; plus they were our oil people and we never had any problems with them), and I paid a private party to dig my fairly complicated trench. It's now been almost one year since the conversion, and everything is going well. Besides the new boiler, which is working great, we now have a propane cooking stove, plus two propane fireplaces (very nice when the power is out).

So far, I'm not sure how much money I'm saving, if any (given the additional demands on fuel), but it sure is nice to have those two large oil tanks gone from our basement! And the Baxi, which is much more compact and hangs on the wall, takes up less space than the old oil furnace and is much quieter (not that that was really a problem).

Gathering all the info on this project, and getting all the pieces to fit, took quite a bit of time. The biggest hurdle ended up being getting that trench dug! The big companies thought it was too small, the small ones didn't think they had the equipment, it was not a simple straight-line trench and everyone had a different opinion about "requirements" (depth, etc.). But once that trench was dug everything else fell neatly into place.

Thanks to everyone who provided insight and tried to help me out. All information was greatly appreciated!

[HellRaZoR004]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

So you oil, pellet stove and wood fanatics heat your domestic hot water with as well as your cooking and laundry with oil, pellet or wood? Electricity is the highest on the totem pole. I will stick to natural gas for all my needs. Too many chimney fires and pellet stove malfunctions to worry about. And too many carbon monoxide cases from malfunctioned oil burners.

On the plus side for wood, you folks do have quite a work out bringing wood in from the wood pile. That is a healthy thing to do.

I use propane for my clothes dryer, hot water and forced hot air (when I don't have the wood stove going). The dryer was initially electric but when I bought the house I had the line installed.

I will caviate it by saying the furnace is always set around 62F though. If I'm cold I'll get the wood stove going and keep it above 70 in the house (2500 sqft). Granted the past weeks cold temps at night was interesting.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

The link does not take into consideration the efficiency of the appliance. The most efficient oil burners are 80% as oppose to 95% for gas. Also efficient gas appliances runs at a rate where it is most efficient by taking into consideration outside air temperature and how fast the temperature drops in the dwelling. Oil is either full on or full off.

Oil has a very limited life. I would prefer to switch now while the energy credits are there rather than wait until there are no credits and oil is gone.

The 5 year old oil burner in my rental is about 86% efficient.....the newer ones are even better.