Geothermal heating

[MilhouseEnterprises]

Yes, frequently installers try to cut expense by undersizing the loop, this causes the system to fail when demand is high, unfortunately there are a lot of installers that were never formally trained in design, they just read a book and decided it was easy to add geothermal to their business. So to put it plainly, there are more bad installers out there than good ones. 99% of the mistakes in a Geothermal system are in the well (Loop).

Geothermal can be retrofitted to a hot water system, you just don't get the air conditioning benefits. Its referred to as a water to water geothermal heat pump.

NH lakes cannot be used, no because it is not viable, but because the State will not permit it. All properly installed geothermal systems in NH will have a drilled well, and this is usually also the potable water well, despite the postings people have put here saying you can't use it for your water well, that is not true, we recommend you use it for the water well if the well produces enough water. Systems that were installed with a ground loop in NH will fail, this is only supposed to be used for areas that do not fall below 30 degrees often, or areas where only cooling is needed, this is why it is common in Florida, but ground loops should never be done in NH unless you only want cooling. Unfortunately there are installers out there that do this because it is less expensive, but it is not the right way to do it and is why they use back up heat. If a system is designed properly, back up heat is not needed at all.

[MilhouseEnterprises]

I noticed in one of the postings that drilled wells and open loops were discouraged because of pump issues. The reality: Especially in a seasonal home that goes long periods of time without the pump cycling, a Geothermal system that will cycle the pump often extends the life of the pump. Its a simple concept that can be compared to a car, drive a car every day and it lasts a long time, leave the car sitting for a few months, and it has issues.

As far as clogging pumps, the only thing that would do that is Iron bacteria, and the only way this would occur is if there were an air leak in the system causing the water to oxygenate (or if the wrong piping was used). If proper oxygen barrier piping is used, this doesn't happen, and the pump will last 16-20 years just as any normal well pump does.

[RLW]

MilhouseEnterprises, I just noticed that you are fairly new to posting on the forum and glad you have joined us. Have fun and enjoy the Winni Forum while making many new friends.

[jeffk]

Thank you very much Milhouse. It's great to have a successful installer chime in.

I would ask if geothermal systems need much ongoing maintenance? My guess would be, probably not. I don't maintain a well pump or A/C unit very much. Maybe a lube or refrigerant check. But from what I read, most of these systems come with monitors that will tell you if anything is out of whack. That could be a saving as well, no annual burner cleaning (oil).

Another point I would make is that a significant part of the up front cost is drilling the well. Wells generally don't wear out. The pumps and compressors may need to be replaced (in around 20 years) but the second go round will be much cheaper because the well and loop piping is already done. Also, in heat pump units, if the compressor goes you often replace just the compressor, the rest of the unit can be left in place. Correct? Oil or propane burning units are usually completely replaced (worn out?) after 20 years of service. Bigger and more expensive job.

So if you are in this for the really long haul, comparative costs could be even more competitive.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by MilhouseEnterprises

Yes, frequently installers try to cut expense by undersizing the loop, this causes the system to fail when demand is high, unfortunately there are a lot of installers that were never formally trained in design, they just read a book and decided it was easy to add geothermal to their business. So to put it plainly, there are more bad installers out there than good ones. 99% of the mistakes in a Geothermal system are in the well (Loop).

So in your opinion there aren't too many good geothermal installers because they don't know what they are doing. A lot of them just read a book and then go into the business. Consequently in your opinion there are more bad installers then good ones.

I stopped reading your post from that point on.

It's OK to separate your workmanship from your competitors and to educate your customers about the differences between how you do things, however just to say "there are more bad installers then good ones" is not a very tactful way of communicating your differences.

[BroadHopper]

FYI, from my experience that are a lot of bad contractors in general in the area, not just geothermal. Everyone says they are the best, they are only in for the buck.

There are a few excellent contractors and they are spread about.

As I mentioned previously, do your homework, consult the engineers.

[jeffk]

A geothermal system can easily cost over $30,000. The success of the ability of the system to be able to properly heat the house and provide a reasonable payback period seems to be largely up to the proper sizing of the system and that rests squarely on the shoulders of the contractor. Further, there is no easy fix for a poorly sized system. What are you going to do, drill another well? In addition, from the discussion on this thread there seems to be a lot of variation on the success of the installations and the efficiency of the systems installed.

MilhouseEnterprises might have been blunt when he said that many contractors don't know how to properly install a geothermal system but I think he may be accurate. The success of plunking down $30K+ on a geothermal system rests largely on the capability of the contractor. He sure the heck better know what he is doing. Anyone considering such an installation cannot afford to trust an installer on blind trust but needs to thoroughly check them out. MilhouseEnterprises is telling us "buyer beware" and with that much money at stake, we should.

[tis]

I don't know the whole deal, but in talking to a local well driller, he was going to a new house that is being built on the lake to dig 10 wells. I don't know if these were test wells or they were all going to be used. I thought they were all going to be used, but I could have misunderstood.

[DickR]

Originally Posted by tis

I don't know the whole deal, but in talking to a local well driller, he was going to a new house that is being built on the lake to dig 10 wells. I don't know if these were test wells or they were all going to be used. I thought they were all going to be used, but I could have misunderstood.

No driller would set out to drill 10 "test wells." If he's drilling for water, he will have a fair idea of how deep a well likely will have to go in a particular location to get adequate flow for domestic use, based on other wells drilled in the area. If he set out to drill 10 wells, whether to hit water or just to get so many holes in the ground for grouting in U-tubes for a ground connection for a geothermal heating system, then likely that was the plan, as part of an overall project. If this is indeed for geothermal heat, the number implies support for a rather large system, and for construction of a new house it represents a huge lost opportunity in design of the house.

If the drilling cost for 10 wells were to be spent instead on the design of the house's exterior shell, into the realm of superinsulated, the result would be a house with a very low heat loss relative to its size, and requiring a very small and correspondingly less expensive heating system to keep it warm in winter and air conditioned in summer. It also would be notably more comfortable year-round, without the cold spots often noticed in ordinary houses when the temperature outside takes a nose dive. Moreover, the extra expense on the shell, nominally around 5% of the cost of the house (plus or minus, depending on how fancy the house is), is recouped in relatively few years from lower operating cost, then keeps paying off like a slot machine.

My own house (mentioned in post 14 on this thread, above), is close to 4000 sqft of conditioned space, but based on electric bills costs roughly $600/heating season to keep comfortable with the geo system. As I said earlier, the heat pump uses one well, somewhat oversized for the two-ton heating system that itself is slightly oversized for the job is has to do. It's way oversized, by a factor of at least two, for summer A/C. The area distributor for the geo unit installed, plus two other installers, all wanted to install a five-ton system, based on their calculations, none of which really took into account the special nature of the house. I selected the unit size, and determined how deep the water well had to be, based on my own calculations for the structure. I was right, and they clearly were wrong.

Whether it's design of the shell to be superinsulated or design of a geothermal heating system, there are some contractors in either field who don't really know how to get it right. Anyone having a house built these days and who wants to get it done right really needs to do a lot of homework to understand what goes into either making the house very energy efficient or, in the case of geo heat, how a system is sized properly. Knowing what has to be done on either is an essential part of contractor selection, in my mind.

[tis]

Thanks for confirming my understanding, Dick. Money is seemingly no object on this house so I assume it will be a big one, therefore needing all those wells.

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by DickR

the heat pump uses one well, somewhat oversized for the two-ton heating system

This is a point that I learned when doing my research. I already had a deep well with a high static water level. So it seemed ideal for use with a heat pump/geothermal system.

However, the diameter of the well was not large enough to accommodate all the piping needed for the water supply and the pipes needed for the loop system. So I would have needed to either drill an additional well or widen the one I had (which would be about the same as drilling a new one)

My whole heating system, including installation, was less than what the well would have cost, even before installing the rest of a geothermal system. With that kind of up front cost outlay, it just wasn't worth it, no matter how appealing the other factors appeared.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by jeffk

A geothermal system can easily cost over $30,000.

Thanks for posting some sort of cost.

My propane furnace was installed over 25 years ago. Broke only one time. Thermocoupler. Not expensive.
I paid $1,800 for furnace, duct work, installation.
This is the type that has a pilot. Very simple technology. No circuit boards.
It just keeps going and going.
I had it professionally cleaned this past summer. Actually took circular fan out and cleaned all. Not required but had thermocoupler replaced.

So I pay a little more as not as efficent as others.
I have peace of mind that it will work and that if it does break everyone has the parts as there are only a few parts. Sometimes simple is better then complex.

Can't get pilot furnaces anymore.