Who knows the "Real" answer to this

[Phantom]

Preamble:
We love to boat at night - clearly not for everyone, but we feel quite comfortable doing so as far as Safe navigation. As a habit there is always a "companion" with me diligently watching for other crafts, debris, markers, as an "additional pair of eyes" up front.

My biggest fear through the years is always having someone run up my transom ( yes I have been boating long before the Meredith Bay issue) and although the new 25 mph speed limit tends to reduce that concern, it obviously doesn't eliminate the possibility. Thus for years I have always had an "Anchor" light on my stern in addition to the 360 white pole light. It gives a nice bright reference point at the water line and can't be mistaken for a house or patio light off in the distance.

Now we just upgraded to a new 26' Crownline and find out during prep by the dealer that they cannot physically find a spot to mount an "anchor" light on our new baby. ..... No worries I said... As we have as standard equipment one of those new ( probably thoroughly useless) set of LED lights under the swim platform. I can simply turn them on.

Question:
I was told by the dealer that NH Law prohibits the use of such lighting, including "party lighting" on pontoon boats while underway !

I consider myself fairly versed in the rules governing boating, but I have NEVER heard of this one!!

Fact or Fiction ?


.

[BroadHopper]

I have been stopped for leaving my 'courtesy' lights in the cockpit on underway and a friend with a cabin cruiser was stopped when he had his cabin lights on underway. What I was told that there will be no lights other than the running lights on as not to distract from the running light, or something like that. Maybe the Marine Patrol can clarify this for the forum.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Fact or Fiction ?

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rule.../saf-c400.html

See 403.15(b)

[Phantom]

Thank you both....

Broadhopper, did they cite you or just warn ?

Seem's strange as I have run with my anchor light ( according to the strict definition- illegally) and never been bothered by Marine Patrol..... And I am sure there have been numerous instances like watching the fireworks, where I have been right up beside them.

[Billy Bob]

Why does New Hampshire need all these special boating rules . Something wrong with what the USCG puts together ?

[tis]

Well, don't feel bad. We got "stopped" for lights on our garage which is about 100 feet away from the lake but you can see them from the lake-barely. Actually it was a cease and desist order. ( The lights were green and red.) We thought they were cute, aparently the MP did not. WE have had them for years and years but two years ago we got the order.

[Pineedles]

Frankly, if you feel safer with an anchor light on, then leave the light on, and write to your congressman if the law disallows this action, and urge them to change the law.

[chachee52]

I have no idea if it's the same type of reason, but it is also the same rule for cars as well. It is illegal to have running lights under the car or any other types of lights on the car while underway.
As for the anchor lights, I'm assuming that you are speaking of a white light in the middle of the stern. I have seen those on other boats. In fact some boats I've seen then are manufacturer installed so the white light can be seen 360.
I would think that its kind of the same as fog lights.
That's just my opinion though on it.

[Descant]

Mostly the regs and RSA;'s you ask about paralell the USCG regs. The state adopts them pretty much wholesale as it is easier to enforce. As a state statute, you can take it to district court instead of a federal court. Most towns do the same with state statutes so that they can locally enforce. Same idea. If you use the lighting provided by the manufacturer, you are in compliance. Sounds like there are some varying definitions within this thread as to what an "anchor light" is. Usually, a 360 degree white light for when you are stationary. Since you cannot anchor overnight in NH the use of an anchor light almost becomes moot.

Having run cabin cruisers at night for many decades, I've never heard of anybody being stopped for cabin lights. However, if you have a helm close to the cabin egress and a passenger opens the cabin door and suddenly puts all that white glare in the eyes of the helmsman, it can cause temporary night blindness. In most circumstances, a blind helmsman is probably a bigger risk than running without cabin lights.

The legislature reviewed much of this a few years ago when the speed limits were being discussed, along with other safety issues. That's when the display of shore lights that look like navigation lights was outlawed.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by Descant

Mostly the regs and RSA;'s you ask about paralell the USCG regs. The state adopts them pretty much wholesale as it is easier to enforce. As a state statute, you can take it to district court instead of a federal court. Most towns do the same with state statutes so that they can locally enforce. Same idea. If you use the lighting provided by the manufacturer, you are in compliance. Sounds like there are some varying definitions within this thread as to what an "anchor light" is. Usually, a 360 degree white light for when you are stationary. Since you cannot anchor overnight in NH the use of an anchor light almost becomes moot.

Having run cabin cruisers at night for many decades, I've never heard of anybody being stopped for cabin lights. However, if you have a helm close to the cabin egress and a passenger opens the cabin door and suddenly puts all that white glare in the eyes of the helmsman, it can cause temporary night blindness. In most circumstances, a blind helmsman is probably a bigger risk than running without cabin lights.

The legislature reviewed much of this a few years ago when the speed limits were being discussed, along with other safety issues. That's when the display of shore lights that look like navigation lights was outlawed.

I use the "anchor light" often during the season. We go out in the evening to a period after dark, and when at anchor, I will have the anchor light on. Watching the sun go down on a warm summer evening, and then enjoying the stars making their appearance makes for a great evening. We sit in the bowrider section, and therefore pretty much avoid the effect of the anchor light cutting down on seeing the stars.

[Phantom]

I have received my answer .... so thanks

To clarify: when I am referring to an anchor lite, it is a center stern mounted "white" lite with visibility of 180 deg.
(in reality - it lights up my swim platform)


Perhaps the wrong term - but that's what the package it came in was labeled !!


>

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I have received my answer .... so thanks

To clarify: when I am referring to an anchor lite, it is a center stern mounted "white" lite with visibility of 180 deg.
(in reality - it lights up my swim platform)


Perhaps the wrong term - but that's what the package it came in was labeled !!


>

An anchor light is a 360 degree white light, and is supposed to be the only light illuminated when at anchor.

A stern light is a light mounted on the stern which shines a 135 (not 180) degree arc.

When under way you should have your red/green (port/starboard) lights illuminated and 360 degrees of white light. On vessels under 40 that can come from a single mast-light behind the captain that places the white light about the port/starboard lights OR from a combination stern light and masthead light that shines a 225 degrees arc ( 225 + 135 = 360 degrees of light) centered toward the bow of the boat.

You cannot have a 360 masthead light and an additional 135 degree stern light, which would give the impression of double white-lights from the stern of the boat.

I'm pretty sure there is a meaning for a high and low white light visible from the stern (which your suggested arrangement would have). It has to do with ships/vessels you wouldn't see on Winni anyway, but it technically would be an incorrect signal/lighting arrangement on a small power boat.

[jrc]

The rules for NH are online, search on Saf-C 400

There seems to be a lot of leeway in this rule to allow the MP to stop and check anyone with any other lights:

(b) Each motorboat shall carry only the combined light or separate side lights as appropriate to its class...


The NH rule also explicitly says that if you meet the USCG rules you're legal in NH.

[codeman671]

Last season we had a Skydek with the led side strip lighting as well as underwater lights. We were approached at the 4th fireworks in Meredith by MP and were told they were illegal. We were sitting, regular lights plus these on, watching the show.

I know that the Marine Trades Association was in discussion last season about this and how to get them approved. More light at night is better as far as I am concerned.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by codeman671

More light at night is better as far as I am concerned.

I disagree with that. *Appropriate* lights let a skilled captain better understand where boats are vs. protruding bits of land and whether or not those boats are stationary or under way.

[MAXUM]

So why doesn't the MT Washington need to go dark when they are underway at night?

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

I disagree with that. *Appropriate* lights let a skilled captain better understand where boats are vs. protruding bits of land and whether or not those boats are stationary or under way.

Not to mention those of us who are out there to see the stars and natural lighting. Couldn't disagree with the "more lights is better" statement more.

There have been nights here off season when the starlight illumination and view far exceeds what I can see at the height of the season when all are here.

http://thechive.com/2013/08/08/what-...-10-hq-photos/

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Thank you both....

Broadhopper, did they cite you or just warn ?

Seem's strange as I have run with my anchor light ( according to the strict definition- illegally) and never been bothered by Marine Patrol..... And I am sure there have been numerous instances like watching the fireworks, where I have been right up beside them.

We were warned. In another thread years ago, I was stop by a 'cadet' on a patrol boat who cited me for not having my 'running' lights on while I was at anchor. I had my anchor light on. The next morning I stopped in Glendale with two witnesses and the sergeant at the desk took my citation on told me I was 'all set'. I guess it pays to call Glendale if you have issues.

[ursa minor]

Our all weather island boat has the exact running light set up on the stern as you describe; a white 360 degree light on a 4 foot pole and a 135 degree white light in the transom. From behind at night we display a white over white which gives me a little more peace of mind considering what happened in Meredith a few years ago. As far as the rules vs. lots of lights, there have to be some limits somewhere: there's someone with a pontoon boat in our area that insists on driving with what look like car fog lights mounted on the front deck on while underway. If they're coming towards you at night it wrecks your night vision.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Merrymeeting

Not to mention those of us who are out there to see the stars and natural lighting. Couldn't disagree with the "more lights is better" statement more.

There have been nights here off season when the starlight illumination and view far exceeds what I can see at the height of the season when all are here.

http://thechive.com/2013/08/08/what-...-10-hq-photos/

I am not talking headlights, but what is the harm with led sidelights and white underwaters? The white underwaters create a glow around the stern, nothing like a headlight in your face.

Watching the stars and natural light at night in a dimly lit boat can be fatal. A few accidents from the past are proof of this. Drunk idiots behind the wheel are the cause of the accidents but a little extra light to catch someone's eye that a boat may be closer than one would think may have helped save a life in either case.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

I disagree with that. *Appropriate* lights let a skilled captain better understand where boats are vs. protruding bits of land and whether or not those boats are stationary or under way.

If appropriate lights help a skilled captain what helps the other 90% on the lake that are not? I see more amateurs and idiots than skilled captains every day on the water. Just spend an afternoon at the Glendale docks, it will definitely enlighten you.

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by codeman671

If appropriate lights help a skilled captain what helps the other 90% on the lake that are not? I see more amateurs and idiots than skilled captains every day on the water. Just spend an afternoon at the Glendale docks, it will definitely enlighten you.

Although I didn't mention that in my previous post, that's part I'm undecided on. Certain extra lights might actually have some benefit, provided they are at least the right color for their location. Anybody who can recognize various navigation light patterns is also going to know enough to know that although your light pattern indicates you are a double-master schooner in distress, the reality is that you're a power boat with an extra stern light

The problem is the slippery slope to pontoon boat morons with aircraft landing lights glaring in every direction.

So, all things considered I'm more in favor of sticking to *proper* lighting and leaving the "mood lighting" to when you're at the dock.

[Kamper]

The second transom light would be for non-inland waters if you had it with an all-around light. Technically not a legal configuration on the lake. I'd be surprised if you got hassled for it though but the above comments make me less sure than I'd have been before reading this thread.

To make yourself slightly more visible, you can add a bit of white reflective tape to your stern. Someone about to over-run you may wonder about the reflective glow from their bow lights.

You could also install a water-skiing mirror to help you with your observations whe you need to be facing forward.

Good luck!

[Merrymeeting]

Anyone who has had the awe-inspiring pleasure of being on the water in an area with minimal light interference can tell you that you can see things on the water almost as well as on a dark, cloudy, day. Full strength starlight is about the same as a moonlit night when you can see for a long way on the water. But this can only happen if your eyes are accustomed to the night light and not blinded by bright lights or shoreline spotlights shining onto the water.

As mentioned in earlier posts, night time accidents on the water rarely are about lighting or lack thereof. They usually result from alcohol impairment, too much speed for the conditions, or some similar combination thereof. Situations that all the additional lighting in the world probably would not have helped.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

So why doesn't the MT Washington need to go dark when they are underway at night?

I love how this Forum take a simple question and goes sideways with it !

SERIOUSLY - how did we get to staring at the stars?

Yet no one has a response for MAXUMS very good question (above)

Oh and BRK thanks for the update on my math error 135deg not 180 ... I was simply trying to thank all for the input .... as I said, I have my answer now it will be between MP and Phantom if I continue to use a stacked white light as I have done for the past 10 years for my own peace of mind for the drunk behind me


.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

So why doesn't the MT Washington need to go dark when they are underway at night?

Vessels over a certain size do not fall under the same criteria as smaller boats. I do not remember what that size is but do know they have different rules governing their navigation.

Dan

[tis]

Did you expect to get a "real" answer, Phantom????

[Barney Bear]

I believe the restriction of colored lights [red and green] is fairly new. In previous years, most of our trips to and from East Bear Island were after dark. On several occasions, we were confused by red and green shore lights. We no longer put the lighted pink flamingo or lighted green frog on our dock.

[Phantom]

Here we go ... now it's a shoreline lights thread !



.

[overthetop75]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Preamble:
We love to boat at night - clearly not for everyone, but we feel quite comfortable doing so as far as Safe navigation. As a habit there is always a "companion" with me diligently watching for other crafts, debris, markers, as an "additional pair of eyes" up front.

My biggest fear through the years is always having someone run up my transom ( yes I have been boating long before the Meredith Bay issue) and although the new 25 mph speed limit tends to reduce that concern, it obviously doesn't eliminate the possibility. Thus for years I have always had an "Anchor" light on my stern in addition to the 360 white pole light. It gives a nice bright reference point at the water line and can't be mistaken for a house or patio light off in the distance.

Now we just upgraded to a new 26' Crownline and find out during prep by the dealer that they cannot physically find a spot to mount an "anchor" light on our new baby. ..... No worries I said... As we have as standard equipment one of those new ( probably thoroughly useless) set of LED lights under the swim platform. I can simply turn them on.

Question:
I was told by the dealer that NH Law prohibits the use of such lighting, including "party lighting" on pontoon boats while underway !

I consider myself fairly versed in the rules governing boating, but I have NEVER heard of this one!!

Fact or Fiction ?


.

I also bought a crownline which came from the factory with blue underwater lights put on the same switch as the cockpit lights. I got pulled over 2 times for using them and had them swapped out for white led lights. I called marine patrol before doing this and was told by sgt Eric Roberts that the white ones would be fine to use while underway on the stern of the boat. So far I have not been pulled over since.

[Phantom]

AWESOME !!!!!!!

As it happens, my boat is going in for service (20 hour) and I will try and have them swap to white LED's

btw -- what did you get ?

We're in a 2014 255SS

As a long time Crownie (this is our third), I can't say as I am impressed with the "electronic" gauges --- wished they went with standard individual Faria gauges ---- especially for FUEL !


.

[overthetop75]

Originally Posted by Phantom

AWESOME !!!!!!!

As it happens, my boat is going in for service (20 hour) and I will try and have them swap to white LED's


John

Glad I could help. Just so you know they are not cheap and my blue ones were broken while trying to remove them so could not recoop money selling them used. I did however move the led lights to the exhaust rocker switch. Now the remote that came with the boat only does the cockpit lights as well as the rocker switch. Too bad since I really loved the blue ones. Best of luck!

[Phantom]

LOL --

We certainly think alike --

While my boat is in for service, I am having them move the switch to "Exhaust" too !!

Winnisquam asked why ..... simple, If I want them on - I sure as heck don't want the interior all lit too


.

[overthetop75]

Originally Posted by Phantom

LOL --

We certainly think alike --

While my boat is in for service, I am having them move the switch to "Exhaust" too !!

Winnisquam asked why ..... simple, If I want them on - I sure as heck don't want the interior all lit too


.

Well if they mess anything up and it does not work like you wanted ie remote not working anymore. I would have no problem giving you a hand since I am right down the road.

[Capt.Ken]

while displaying two white lights astern may give you peace of mind by showing more light, you may be displaying the configuration for a boat towing another. Also an all around white light with the forward green and red is acceptable. While only a green and red forward and a white stern light is required on boats less than 50 meters, a forward white masthead light is allowed but not required.
Too many cabin/deck lights will diminish your reds and greens which will make it difficult to determine stand on or give way.
Personally I find that bright shore lights can cause problems with depth perception, and night vision, especially on very cloudy nights when the horizon is tough to determine.

[Merrymeeting]

There was a Captain Bonehead passing the other night with his "headlights" on (DOCKING lights). It was a pontoon boat and with the placement of the lights, the red and green ones were totally invisible given the glare from the other lights.

[Phantom]

Okay -

First off, I have had someone already PM me that they have the EXACT same light configuration and checked with MP.

As long as my "under deck" (below the swim platform) water lights are "white (not blue as currently factory installed) MP would accept that as a legitimate "Stern/Anchor light".

...... and let's not get picky on nautical terminology as earlier in this thread.
"Stern/Anchor light" projects only rearward & does not negate or replace the necessary Aft 360 degree "white" light.

To head off all the future comments of like/ dislike, Legal/ Illegal .... As the person who PM'd me only has this info as verbal (phone call) -- I have sent an email off to MP myself asking the question (in writing). When I (if I ) get a response .... good, bad or indifferent ... I will post.

To the boneheads that run Pontoons with the docking lights always on -- there is just no excuse --- most times (I have learnt from my small lake here in MA) they don't even realize they are on. PAY ATTENTION !




A Happy & (and most importantly) Safe 4th holiday to all
(unfortunately we're stuck in MA for the weekend)


.

[Capt.Ken]

I think there is a confusion of terms.
A "stern light" is a light displayed at 135 degrees abaft the beam, or, off the back of the boat. It is required to be displayed while running, in conjunction with the red and green forward lights.
An anchor light is a 360 degree white light which is to be displayed while at anchor.
Red and green running lights are not to be displayed while at anchor.
It is acceptable but not required (only 135 degree rear white light is required) to display a 360 degree white light with the red and green running lights while running.
Diplaying two white lights astern is the configuration for towing.
Theres no way a light mounted below your swim platform could be considered an anchor light because it doesnt display 360 degrees. But if it displays at 135 degrees or more it could possibly used as a stern light.
White led lights displayed off the front and sides of your boat and lower than the red and green running lights will just cause confusion.
Blue lights are for the marine police only.

[Phantom]

Probably should have done this in the first place .... but the Forum is typically very reliable.

Sent an email off to MP and within one day received a courteous reply.

Short version is .... NO lights (interior or exterior) are permissible while underway other than the required navigation lights -- white 360 deg (rear) / Green - Red (bow)


That now brings this Thread to a close !
.

[Rich]

Unless the name on your boat is the "Mount Washington"

[Lakeboater]

Yeah, why is that about the Mount?

[Kamper]

Originally Posted by Lakeboater

Yeah, why is that about the Mount?

Larger vessels need a different configuration than small craft. Working, commercial vessels also have some exemptions due to their functional needs. Any book on boating will have a variety of illustrations to depict the appropriate lights to be displayed for each vessel type. Even some you may never see on lake Winnipesaukee.

(EG: How can you tell the difference between a speed boat and a US submarine on a dark moonless night? )

The important thing is to know what your boat needs and what you are likely to see on your local waters. That being said I think the MP telling people their interior lights are a violation are exceeding the legislative intent of the new lighting laws.