Hb 162 News

[pm203]

Rep Pilliod and 162 is a disgrace. Laws should be passed on fact,not unfounded fear from the minority. If anything should scare you in your smaller boat, it is the cabin cruisers throwing the 6 foot wake! Are you going to try and outlaw them next? I understand your right to feel safe, but targeting a relatively small group of boats is not the answer. Just like a go-fast cannot go fast all the time, maybe there are times that you should not go out in your 18 footer.

[fatlazyless]

Gee whiz...I like those 24 to 48' cruisers that cruise along at 12 - 24 mph with their displacement hulls and their large wakes. Makes for a little challenge while out boating and sailing on the big lake.

And don't forget, 45mph is hardly a slow speed for a boat out on the big lake!

[BroadHopper]

Well Fatlazyless, Rep. Pilliod is going to target those boats next. He had told a number of us, email, voice mail and otherwise, that those boats belong on the ocean. I guess you will have to take up another sport that will get your adrenalin going.

[pm203]

Woodsy,
Sorry for being slightly harsh on Rep.Pilliod. While he may be an asset to the local government, you cannot tell by the way and why he sponsered 162. While I admitt I dont know his track record on general issues, I cannot support nor trust an individual in his position that would generate a law that is not based on fact,but based on a small group that has used scare tactics to grow to their current size.Instead, I would expect someone in his position to look at the real facts,talk to the Marine Patrol and then draw his own non-biased conclusions as to whether a law is neccessary or not. Generating laws that take away any of our freedoms should be dealt with a little less on emotion and more on fact.

[Bear Islander]

Woodsy

I think fear is a good reason for a speed limit. There is the fear a camp director has in sending children out in small boats. Or the child that can't play in the water because their parents are afraid of the traffic and speed. Or the islander that can't get to the mainland on a weekend.

Fear of accident or death is a very valid reason to enact legislation. Especially when those fears are reasonable, as they are here.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Woodsy

I think fear is a good reason for a speed limit. There is the fear a camp director has in sending children out in small boats. Or the child that can't play in the water because their parents are afraid of the traffic and speed. Or the islander that can't get to the mainland on a weekend.

Fear of accident or death is a very valid reason to enact legislation. Especially when those fears are reasonable, as they are here.

Bear Islander,
With all due respect, are you plugged in? Nothing you just said makes sense. The camp director SHOULD have fear when he is dealing with children that are his responsibility.I am sure there are safe coves,no-wake zones,etc. that are safe for children who are boating..What child cant play in the water?( maybe in the middle of the broads.) Are you expecting high speed runs near shore? And as far as an islander not being able to get to shore?. Is there a go-fast ,just waiting around the corner to terrorize the islander every time he or she heads out?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by pm203

Bear Islander,
With all due respect, are you plugged in? Nothing you just said makes sense. The camp director SHOULD have fear when he is dealing with children that are his responsibility.I am sure there are safe coves,no-wake zones,etc. that are safe for children who are boating..What child cant play in the water?( maybe in the middle of the broads.) Are you expecting high speed runs near shore? And as far as an islander not being able to get to shore?. Is there a go-fast ,just waiting around the corner to terrorize the islander every time he or she heads out?

As a person who doesn't agree with HB-162, can I ask you to chill, just a bit, here. I'm honestly interested in trying to understand why BI or FLL or ?? feels so afraid. I'd like to engage in some dialogue on this topic but it's hard to do when everyone gets their "hackles up". I understand your desire to respond but Webmaster Don has given us all an opportunity to converse on the topic and I'd like to think we all can do a little better than past threads indicate (at least starting out ). Comments like "are you plugged in" aren't overly conducive to this. I'm sure in time various agent provocateurs (they exist on both sides and no I don't think you're one of them) will ruin the discourse but may I please ask everyone to think twice and type once (to coin a phrase) ?

[pm203]

Mee n Mac,
I didn,t think that "not being plugged in" was that offensive.I find alot of questionable comments on here that just do not make sense. However, for the good of the forum,I will tone it down and chill out.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by pm203

Mee n Mac,
I didn,t think that "not being plugged in" was that offensive.I find alot of questionable comments on here that just do not make sense. However, for the good of the forum,I will tone it down and chill out.

Thanks. It's not that the wording was *offensive* but rather, hmmm let me search for words here, set an inflammatory tone perhaps.... I'd like to understand the fear viewpoint (if only to satisfy my own curiousity) and it's hard to get people to open up if they think it's only going to lead to ridicule. Unfortunately on a topic as emotional as this one is, I'm probably playing the part of Don Quixote in this endevour.

[Bear Islander]

pm203

If a camp is in Alton Bay for instance, where is the nearest quiet cove? How do the children in sail boats, canoes and row boats get from the camp to the quiet cove without traveling through heavy traffic? How many miles can a 7 year old row a boat to this cove? Many years ago I was the director of a New Hampshire children's camp, thankfully not on Winni. Many times I watched helplessly from shore when speed boats came near my campers.

When you live on a point on Winni, like I do, you can get very nervous when swimmers are in the water. I dislike swimming out further than the end of my dock.

I have neighbors on Bear Island that do not go out in their boats on weekends. I guarantee you this is for real. Just like some people will not drive through Boston during rush hour.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

pm203

If a camp is in Alton Bay for instance, where is the nearest quiet cove? How do the children in sail boats, canoes and row boats get from the camp to the quiet cove without traveling through heavy traffic? How many miles can a 7 year old row a boat to this cove? Many years ago I was the director of a New Hampshire children's camp, thankfully not on Winni. Many times I watched helplessly from shore when speed boats came near my campers.

When you live on a point on Winni, like I do, you can get very nervous when swimmers are in the water. I dislike swimming out further than the end of my dock.

I have neighbors on Bear Island that do not go out in their boats on weekends. I guarantee you this is for real. Just like some people will not drive through Boston during rush hour.

Yes, your concerns do sound genuine. I as well,would be concerned. I just dont feel that performance boats or speed should be targeted.Everything you described will still be of concern even if all performance boats are eradicated from the lake.Boater education and enforcement of existing laws are a much better way to solve the issue of safety.

[Taz]

I read an article recently that indicated many of the the reps are in favor of amending HB162 by removing the 45 & 25 numbers & changing it to what ever speed is reasonable for the specific situation. If that happens it will take the meat out of the law & those who want to go 60, 70, 80 in the Broads or larger bays will be free to do so.

Thats the way it should be. So high performance owners don't fret.

[pm203]

Common sense will always be common sense.If someone is driving to endanger,citate!

[ApS]

Ah'm sellin' this here Bass Boat. Nuthin' wrong with it. Jes' takin' bestest offer.
Yuh unnerstan', Ah ain't afeered of nuthin' on Winnipesaukee.
Have Ah got the rite forum?

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Ah'm sellin' this here Bass Boat. Nuthin' wrong with it. Jes' takin' bestest offer.
Yuh unnerstan', Ah ain't afeered of nuthin' on Winnipesaukee.
Have Ah got the rite forum?

But you might have been a victim of the 150' rule in that particular photo. Also not interested in your bass boat, but those ones in the background sure are nice!

[BroadHopper]

Acres per Second. Sounds like you are very contrdictory. Naming yourself 'Acres per second' when you have to go faster than 45 mph to cover an acre per second!

[Woodsy]

Don... Thanks for what seems like our own little place to debate this hot button topic. It will be nice to debate how to turn lemons into lemonade.

Mee & Mac... well said! I think that everyones opinion should be treated with respect. Both sides of the issue have some very valid points, they just disagree albiet strongly about how to go about it. All sides need to keep the name calling to themselves.

PM203... didn't mean to dump on you, but you got the hint.

Bear Islander... Fear is never a good reason for legislation that limits an individuals personal freedom. It should be that absolute last resort after all else has failed.

I would be careful swimming off your dock as well, especially considering the picture you posted of your own boat driving by it, approximately 4' away, while on plane! Probably traveling at about 25 MPH or so? I also understand that some people don't want to take thier boats out on the weekends because they are afraid. The real question is, afraid of what exactly? Getting hit by a Performance Boat? Or just getting hit by a boat in general? Is it because they have a small boat? Be honest, they are concerned about being hit in general. I doubt boat size matters all that much as long as it is bigger than thier boat. Your little slice of the lake is extremely busy and rough on weekends. A speed limit is going to do nothing to alleviate those conditions. Its also going to do nothing when a noisy boat idles thru the NWZ by the Post Office at 3am, and gets back on plane just past your house either.

A Camp Director should be VERY concerned about ANY powerboats near children that are traveling at ANY speed. That being said, it is his responsibility to make sure the children are safe and after hearing one of them speak, I am sure its a charge they don't take lightly. There are many ways that will help to improve the safety of the children yet not restrict another individuals personal freedom. All of the kids on the water in kayaks or canoes should be in brightly safety orange painted boats with bright orange lifejackets. Perhaps putting in a string of NWZ marker bouys 150' off the camp? I don't think the MP would balk, and certainly I think most, if not all boaters would be for it. Perhaps even help pay for them. The busiest times for boating are friday afternoon until sunday afternoon. The kids are usually at the camps for a week or two at a time. They could limit thier excursions beyond the 150' safety mark to the 4.5 days of the week when the lake isn't busy. They could/should have a larger motorboat idling with the kids as they paddle or sail beyond the 150' safety zone, perhaps flying a big orange flag. Sailboats should be highly visible just because of thier sails, but safety orange sails would be a good thing. Kids who want to go swimming beyond the swim markers should be required to wear a bright orange PFD and not be allowed to venture beyond the proposed 150' NWZ markers. This proposal doesn't infringe on the kids freedom right to enjoy the lake, nor the boaters freedom. It actually makes for a much safer environment for the kids.

APS... Pix can be decieving as all of the boats are pretty much in the same spot. because of this it is very difficult to judge the actual distance between the boats. You can't really judge speed in the pic either. Assuming your pic is correct, I think that education will help to solve thew 150' violation.

EVERYBODY should be REQUIRED to have a SAFE BOATERS CERTIFICATE! NO EXCEPTIONS! My personal freedom should not be infringed upon because a marina owner wants to rent an 1800lb boat for $200/hr to someone who has a credit card with room for a $2500 damage claim, yet posesses no working knowledge of the rules & regulations except for a 20 question quiz and no experience with boat handling!

I think if we restricted boat rentals to those who people who posses a Safe Boaters Certificate, tour companies like the Winni Water Taxi would be a viable, thriving yet safe business.

Woodsy

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Ah'm sellin' this here Bass Boat. Nuthin' wrong with it. Jes' takin' bestest offer.
Yuh unnerstan', Ah ain't afeered of nuthin' on Winnipesaukee.
Have Ah got the rite forum?

Can't really tell the separation in that photo due to the long lens used. Long lenses compress everything and distort perspective.

Here's a wonderful example of how much the lens can alter the view:

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Can't really tell the separation in that photo due to the long lens used. Long lenses compress everything and distort perspective.

Eye witness needed?

Originally Posted by krwxcr700

It looks like my boat. If it was on July 30, 2005 outside of Winter Harbor it is me. The Marine Patrol came by for 1/2 an hour and those boats didn't buzz me at that point but as soon as the MP left it was back to the way the picture is.

That was very likely your boat: The date and location is correct.

Strange, that two MP boats were present in your location. Just one should have been sufficient to slow traffic. I was hugging the shoreline -- so closely that a family approached and asked if I wanted to substitute their video camera for my still camera to record the violations!

Here's another guy enjoying the hills and mountains of Winnipesaukee's scenic landscape -- headed your way. (Like Littlefield, we can't determine his speed with precision, either).

(Copplecrown Mountain, marking the southeastern edge of the Winnipesaukee Basin, is in the background).

[overlook]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Ah'm sellin' this here Bass Boat. Nuthin' wrong with it. Jes' takin' bestest offer.
Yuh unnerstan', Ah ain't afeered of nuthin' on Winnipesaukee.
Have Ah got the rite forum?

Nice arpiture rate, bet it was real sunny that day. It is pictures like that help you convince the nieve.

Got any ufo ones too?

[ApS]

Sorry, no still-photos of a UFO .

However, somebody else got this video of a UFO about 30 feet long.

Pretty convincing, I'd say -- even to skeptics. You can even count the number of "beings" with it! It's going pretty fast and the UFO is a little fuzzy, but how many "beings" do you see?

(It's OK if you don't get the same count with each viewing).

.

[overlook]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Sorry, no still-photos of a UFO .

However, somebody else got this video of a UFO about 30 feet long.

Pretty convincing, I'd say -- even to skeptics. You can even count the number of "beings" with it! It's going pretty fast and the UFO is a little fuzzy, but how many "beings" do you see?

(It's OK if you don't get the same count with each viewing).

.

You seem to be out of the loop here, let me retort--- Lake Winni. has a safe passage rule and yes it does get pusshed- mostly by impatient individuals who choose to plane off early. Never the less that video is not at a NH lake, and further more what are the rules of navigation of that particular waterway?
Not all waterways have the same rules that NH has, That pass for all we know was leagle. Have you ever been to the Lakes Of The Ozarks?

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by overlook

You seem to be out of the loop here, let me retort--- Lake Winni. has a safe passage rule and yes it does get pusshed- mostly by impatient individuals who choose to plane off early. Never the less that video is not at a NH lake, and further more what are the rules of navigation of that particular waterway?
Not all waterways have the same rules that NH has, That pass for all we know was leagle. Have you ever been to the Lakes Of The Ozarks?

If that video was on Winni I'm sure the opposition would claim the driver had some wine and therefore it has nothing to do with speed.

If a boat were to hit the Mount at 130 mph they would say the accident does not argue for a speed limit, because it was already a violation of the 150' rule.

[Cal]

That lake certainly was dangerously crowded.
And what makes you think the 150' rule wasn't obeyed. Camera lenses can distort depth perception.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

If that video was on Winni I'm sure the opposition would claim the driver had some wine and therefore it has nothing to do with speed.

If a boat were to hit the Mount at 130 mph they would say the accident does not argue for a speed limit, because it was already a violation of the 150' rule.

And when was the last time someone crashed into the mount? And how often are boats doing 130mph on Winni? Your worst case what-if's are a real stretch...

[Cal]

If anyone's going to hit the Mount , they don't deserve to be on the lake at ANY speed.

[chase1]

Originally Posted by Taz

I read an article recently that indicated many of the the reps are in favor of amending HB162 by removing the 45 & 25 numbers & changing it to what ever speed is reasonable for the specific situation. If that happens it will take the meat out of the law & those who want to go 60, 70, 80 in the Broads or larger bays will be free to do so.

Thats the way it should be. So high performance owners don't fret.

That is how the current law stands. Do you have a link.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

pm203

If a camp is in Alton Bay for instance, where is the nearest quiet cove? How do the children in sail boats, canoes and row boats get from the camp to the quiet cove without traveling through heavy traffic? How many miles can a 7 year old row a boat to this cove? Many years ago I was the director of a New Hampshire children's camp, thankfully not on Winni. Many times I watched helplessly from shore when speed boats came near my campers.

When you live on a point on Winni, like I do, you can get very nervous when swimmers are in the water. I dislike swimming out further than the end of my dock.

I have neighbors on Bear Island that do not go out in their boats on weekends. I guarantee you this is for real. Just like some people will not drive through Boston during rush hour.

Not saying this isn't a problem but it seems like it's already well covered by the no wake/150' laws. Not sure It would make much difference if a swimmer was hit by a boat going 40 MPH or 50 MPH, either would most likely be fatal.

[Bear Islander]

Dave

The speed limit is not about getting boats to go 40 instead of 50. Its about getting them to go 45 instead of 90.

Yes, the swimmer hit by a boat is just as dead at either speed, but you are missing the point. At the slower speed the driver has twice the time to see the swimmer and turn. The swimmer has twice the time to dive or get out of the way.

And with a speed limit, that boat able to go 90 may be in the Atlantic Ocean, where it should be.

[Islander]

It is hard for me to believe that some are arguing that speed has nothing to do with safety. Obviously safety is reduced as speed is increased, anything else is just silly - or denial.

"Speed Kills" is the watchword of every law enforcement agency in the country....... except the NH Marine Patrol!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Islander

It is hard for me to believe that some are arguing that speed has nothing to do with safety. Obviously safety is reduced as speed is increased, anything else is just silly - or denial.

"Speed Kills" is the watchword of every law enforcement agency in the country....... except the NH Marine Patrol!

The watchword should really be "speed raises revenue"... You never see speed traps in places where speeding is unsafe. They always seem to be in places where the roads are straight and wide. I hear one can completely flaunt speed limit laws with almost no fear of tickets on curvy narrow back roads if they want to...

Speed never killed anyone. Collisions kill. I wonder how many collisions there have been on the lake involving boats where at least one boat is going more than 45 and no laws were broken. Bet the number is quite low, maybe 0. There is no excuse for collisions on the water. They are entirely due to negligence of one sort or another and probably already illegal.

If 45 is twice as safe as 90 then 22.5 must be twice as safe as 45 and 11.25 must be twice as safe as 22.5 and 0 must be infinitely more safe than moving at all. Why 45? I can think of plenty of sitautions where 45 would be legal but entirely unsafe. It's just an arbitrary number that most new boats will just barely exceed.

[winnilaker]

Originally Posted by Islander

It is hard for me to believe that some are arguing that speed has nothing to do with safety. Obviously safety is reduced as speed is increased, anything else is just silly - or denial.

"Speed Kills" is the watchword of every law enforcement agency in the country....... except the NH Marine Patrol!

What the difference, that same thinking should tell us to lower our highways to a much lower level. There are many accidents on our roadways and I think if every road in NH had a speed limit of 45 or lower we will have less accidents, yes?

Stating that speed causes safety issues is inaccurate, speed CAN magnify things for sure, but that can be said with anything.

And the Marine Patrol never stated, at least at all the testimonials that I witnessed, that speed cannot be a factor in an accident or cannot kill. Their points are clear, difficult to enforce, no data shows the need and they don't think it will achieve the desired impact. When supporters state "we don't boat anymore because its too rough, therefore we need speed limits to slow everyone down" , you boaters have to clearly see the flaw in that statement.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Probably not too surprisingly I have some thoughts on what might be reasonable speed limits that I've not previously spewed but now that the flood gates are open, here's some thinking for your consideration ....

The above posts by BI, Islander, Dave R and Winnilaker are interesting because there is a way to begin to reconcile these apparently opposite positions. First I'd like to state a few principles and concepts that I think we all can agree to. First is that everyone should be operating their boat so that it doesn't cause injury to anyone else. Second it is the sole responsibility of the captain to accomplish this. Third any speed limit to be set*, should be set such that the actions of a reasonable person, acting in accordance with the above principles, aren't unlawful. Let me explain the last bit in more detail. Should there be a need to limit speed, the limit isn't set that such a one eyed sailor, blind drunk in his good eye, will always be able to avoid the collision (ie - limit too low). And the flip side is that any limit shouldn't require the operator to be Superman with x-ray vision, reflexes faster than a speeding train, etc, etc. A normal, reasonable, human person has to be able to avoid the collison. Typically these things are set at the 85% percentile, that is 85% of the population can do what's required. Lastly, just as we do on roadways, the limit isn't set according to the worst case environmental conditions. Expounding on this you don't set the posted maximum limit for foggy, raining, etc, conditions. You set for the normal conditions and while what's prudent and reasonable will vary with those conditions, it's the duty of the operator to slow down in accordance with the conditions. The roadway corollary is that when the road is slick with snow, the enforceable limit (you can be stopped and fined) is lower than the posted limit and it's the driver's responsibility to know this.

Given the above, what factors determine whether a collision will occur or not. Certainly the ability to see the hazard is prime and so at what distance can a reasonable person see the hazard ? This is largely independant of speed. Does the available sightline (how far can you see) exceed this distance ? How long will it take the operator to perceive and react to the hazard ? And lastly how much distance does the required control action (slowing or turning or both), to miss the target, take ? Combining all these, at some speed even Superman can't avoid the collision because his sightline is restricted or he, and/or the boat, can't react fast enough. And the other side at some speed even a drunk sailor is virtually guranteed to avoid the collision. In between these 2 speeds is where the reasonable man can avoid the collision and where the speed limit, if necessary, should be set.

Now there are a lot of gray areas and specifics that I've left unsaid but if we can't agree on the general concepts above there's no reason to get into them. *Also I've left out the practical issue of whether a limit, set in accordance with the above, is necessary or will accomplish anything. For the moment let's leave that discussion on the side.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

SNIP

Given the above, what factors determine whether a collision will occur or not. Certainly the ability to see the hazard is prime and so at what distance can a reasonable person see the hazard ? This is largely independant of speed. Does the available sightline (how far can you see) exceed this distance ? How long will it take the operator to perceive and react to the hazard ? And lastly how much distance does the required control action (slowing or turning or both), to miss the target, take ? Combining all these, at some speed even Superman can't avoid the collision because his sightline is restricted or he, and/or the boat, can't react fast enough. And the other side at some speed even a drunk sailor is virtually guranteed to avoid the collision. In between these 2 speeds is where the reasonable man can avoid the collision and where the speed limit, if necessary, should be set.

I agree with you in principle. Still see no need for a limit, yet. Statistics don't show a need and I'd rather see emphasis on fixing other obvious problems like lack of boater ed.

I got my Safe Boater Certificate years before it was required of me and do what I can to teach others safe boating as well. Wish Mr. Pilliod would push for that sort of behavior in the rest of us.

[chase1]

Bear with me, but why do some feel the GFBL boats will vanish if HB162 passes?????

And with a speed limit, that boat able to go 90 may be in the Atlantic Ocean, where it should be.[/QUOTE]

I am trying to understand but please help me. I have only had positive experiences on the lake.

"where it should be"

Who is to determine where any type of boat should be. Some state rep? The majority? Old man Wilson? Winni is a Big Lake and the arguement could be made that small boats belong on small lakes and if you want your kids to learn how to sail a small boat they should go to one of the many other lakes within our state. Heck many such lakes have had powerboats baned all together so they will be extremely quiet and there no worry regarding boat speed.
Where should the 40' live aboard cabin cruiser be?
Where should the small 18' bass boat be?
Where should the competition ski boat be?
Where should the pontoon boat be?
Where should the 14' scout be?
What about all of the small boats in the Atlantic....By this type of logic they should not be allowed anywhere but the lake. Although I do not agree it may make more sense when you concider how many small boat accidents occur off the coast and in the rivers.
I grew up on a small lake and now boat on Winni. I wanted a bigger type boat so I moved to the big lake. Don't spin this agound. You do not need to have a big boat to be on Winni. I still have small boats too. In fact I summer on an island and run back and forth to the mainland all weekend long on a pontoon boat or small center console. I can not understand anyone who says they can't do that becauyse of the conjestion or GFBL boats.
Boats are made for water and it is the owners who decide where to use them. No manufacture puts a decal on there boat that says use in the ocean or use in lakes.
Speed limit or no speed limit my GFBL will remain on the lake and see the same usage. If gas prices didn't keep my boat at the dock a speed limit won't.

Chase1

[Cal]

Most all the reasons FOR a speed limit are really great BUT go ahead and make the speed limit 25 all the time and it won't change most of the concerns stated. Boats will still be close to each other going too fast , they'll still be too close to shore , to close to docks , to close to swimmers , discourteous boater , clueless boaters , the Alton Bay camp director will still have to worry about his kids when they're out in a sail boat ( if he doesn't he better be replaced). Weekends will still be overly crowded. I've been on the lake in a 17 footer on the week end and a speed limit won't change the water conditions with all the boats present. Stop and think for a minute...if you removed all the other boats and left the go fasts , that would eliminate most all the problems previously stated by other people. This of course is not the answer , but mark my words "Neither is a speed limit".
But I guess all of you who are FOR it will have to be shown the truth after it passes


OK , I'm off my soap box

[BroadHopper]

Cal, Once Rep. Pilliod pass this law, he is going to pass another law in limiting the size of boats. The same people who are 'scared' of the go fast boats are also 'scared' of big boat wake. He said to a number of people that the go fast boats and the big cruisers belong on the ocean. I'm surprise that he extended the HB to include the intercoastal waters off NH. 25 mph is maximum wake speed for a lot of boats. Can you imagine the economy that we will be losing???????

A number of boating magazines reported Winnipesaukee as one of the top destination spot. Looks like they will be saying the opposite.