Repercussions from non-permitted dock construction/additions/repairs

CooperS7777 · 08-05-2015, 03:36 AM

We are in the process of planning an overdue re-construction of our dock, and had some interesting discoveries when we received word of what was actually permitted on our property.

In a nut shell, our dock has several "additions" which appear to have been added over time, without proper permitting. As best we can tell, they have been there for nearly 20 years, well before we purchased the property approximately 5 years ago.

We are in the process of returning the dock to its approved state, prior to starting any new permit applications, but are curious what the potential repercussions could be? Is there any point where the structure becomes grandfathered?

Thanks in advance!

thinkxingu · 08-05-2015, 06:28 AM

I have always believed in the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" mentality. Specifically, that if you were only repairing what was there, that I wouldn't have even opened the can of worms. But since you have, when dealing with our town's building department a month ago, we were told that we could do any demo we needed but couldn't create anything new, and that we weren't responsible for any alterations the previous owners had done but that they might have to be remediated if too far out of code, etc.

Good luck!

Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk

secondcurve · 08-05-2015, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CooperS7777

We are in the process of planning an overdue re-construction of our dock, and had some interesting discoveries when we received word of what was actually permitted on our property.

In a nut shell, our dock has several "additions" which appear to have been added over time, without proper permitting. As best we can tell, they have been there for nearly 20 years, well before we purchased the property approximately 5 years ago.

We are in the process of returning the dock to its approved state, prior to starting any new permit applications, but are curious what the potential repercussions could be? Is there any point where the structure becomes grandfathered?

Thanks in advance!

How did you find out that what is in place presently is not "approved"?

CooperS7777 · 08-05-2015, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secondcurve

How did you find out that what is in place presently is not "approved"?

Based upon records from the tax assessors office.

ishoot308 · 08-05-2015, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CooperS7777

Based upon records from the tax assessors office.

You opened a can of worms that you never should have...

CooperS7777 · 08-05-2015, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishoot308

You opened a can of worms that you never should have...

I dont think it will draw any unnecessary attention. They were actually received when I was pulling a permit for other work on our home - I simply requested all the information they had pertaining to the property. Its been two years and a tax assessment since and no one has said a word. The only reason its come up now is because we are actually starting to plan for the dock renovations.

Onshore · 08-05-2015, 11:19 AM

If your dock is permanent (as in, installed year-round) and you are doing work in the water to reconstruct it you should have obtained a permit from the NH DES Wetlands Bureau. The "grandfather" dates are 1969 for permanent structures and commercial structures and 1978 for single family seasonal structures. If you did not build the illegal structures then there would not be any possibility of getting fined for their existence. You would not however receive a permit to repair them if they do not meet current standards, and if the illegal structures were to come to the attention of DES through any means the state could order that the illegal structures be removed. If any of the modifications do meet current standards then you could apply for a permit to keep those additions after-the-fact.

D. Forst
Shoreland Section Supervisor
NH DES Land Resource Management Programs

wifi · 08-05-2015, 06:47 PM

This is all theoretical. I have a neighbor that sawed down trees to improve his views, about 10 feet from the lake. Tore down and rebuilt a shore line rock wall, Installed a 20x20 cement pad to install a new dock. Tore out and rebuilt a beach, paved his driveway, within 50 feet of the lake, Ripped out his lawn within 20 feet of the lake, and planted what looked good, ALL with no permit. Neighbors complained, no results. He now has a nice place.

The lesson, as stated before, just do it, and chances are you won't be caught. His place is now for sale, Caveat Emptor, I guess.

Merrymeeting · 08-05-2015, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wifi

This is all theoretical. I have a neighbor that sawed down trees to improve his views, about 10 feet from the lake. Tore down and rebuilt a shore line rock wall, Installed a 20x20 cement pad to install a new dock. Tore out and rebuilt a beach, paved his driveway, within 50 feet of the lake, Ripped out his lawn within 20 feet of the lake, and planted what looked good, ALL with no permit. Neighbors complained, no results. He now has a nice place.

The lesson, as stated before, just do it, and chances are you won't be caught. His place is now for sale, Caveat Emptor, I guess.

Sadly, this seems to be the case on our lake too.

secondcurve · 08-07-2015, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wifi

This is all theoretical. I have a neighbor that sawed down trees to improve his views, about 10 feet from the lake. Tore down and rebuilt a shore line rock wall, Installed a 20x20 cement pad to install a new dock. Tore out and rebuilt a beach, paved his driveway, within 50 feet of the lake, Ripped out his lawn within 20 feet of the lake, and planted what looked good, ALL with no permit. Neighbors complained, no results. He now has a nice place.

The lesson, as stated before, just do it, and chances are you won't be caught. His place is now for sale, Caveat Emptor, I guess.

Yes. It happens frequently. The state spends too much time making life difficult for the folks who are trying to do things correctly and rarely does it pursue the folks who just do what they want. The rule book makes my head hurt and I do believe the complexity leads to folks throwing up their hands and doing what they want and risking the consequences. Too much bureaucracy and not enough practicality.

winnipiseogee · 08-07-2015, 08:09 PM

I remember calling DES when we first moved back to NH. I knew the rules were strict and I wanted to do the right thing. I remember being told that if there was a spot in my yard where puddles formed after a rain I could be in violation by dumping grass clippings in that spot. It pretty much convinced me then and there that anything I did would be a violation - oh well why bother??

Shorethings - please don't take this as a criticism of you. You are an incredibly helpful part of the forum and I appreciate your pragmatic understanding of the rules. Unfortunately not everyone shares your common sense take on these things.

Onshore · 08-10-2015, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winnipiseogee

Shorethings - please don't take this as a criticism of you. You are an incredibly helpful part of the forum and I appreciate your pragmatic understanding of the rules. Unfortunately not everyone shares your common sense take on these things.

No problem.

08-05-2015, 03:36 AM	#1
CooperS7777 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 69 Thanks: 103 Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts	Repercussions from non-permitted dock construction/additions/repairs We are in the process of planning an overdue re-construction of our dock, and had some interesting discoveries when we received word of what was actually permitted on our property. In a nut shell, our dock has several "additions" which appear to have been added over time, without proper permitting. As best we can tell, they have been there for nearly 20 years, well before we purchased the property approximately 5 years ago. We are in the process of returning the dock to its approved state, prior to starting any new permit applications, but are curious what the potential repercussions could be? Is there any point where the structure becomes grandfathered? Thanks in advance!

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08-05-2015, 06:28 AM	#2
thinkxingu Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 6,303 Thanks: 1,174 Thanked 2,091 Times in 1,294 Posts	I have always believed in the "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission" mentality. Specifically, that if you were only repairing what was there, that I wouldn't have even opened the can of worms. But since you have, when dealing with our town's building department a month ago, we were told that we could do any demo we needed but couldn't create anything new, and that we weren't responsible for any alterations the previous owners had done but that they might have to be remediated if too far out of code, etc. Good luck! Sent from my XT1528 using Tapatalk

The Following User Says Thank You to CooperS7777 For This Useful Post:
secondcurve (08-07-2015)

08-05-2015, 11:19 AM	#7
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 503 Thanks: 12 Thanked 425 Times in 146 Posts	If your dock is permanent (as in, installed year-round) and you are doing work in the water to reconstruct it you should have obtained a permit from the NH DES Wetlands Bureau. The "grandfather" dates are 1969 for permanent structures and commercial structures and 1978 for single family seasonal structures. If you did not build the illegal structures then there would not be any possibility of getting fined for their existence. You would not however receive a permit to repair them if they do not meet current standards, and if the illegal structures were to come to the attention of DES through any means the state could order that the illegal structures be removed. If any of the modifications do meet current standards then you could apply for a permit to keep those additions after-the-fact. D. Forst Shoreland Section Supervisor NH DES Land Resource Management Programs

The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Onshore For This Useful Post:
BroadHopper (08-06-2015), CooperS7777 (08-05-2015), Dad sold the C * C (08-05-2015), Lakegeezer (08-05-2015), LIforrelaxin (08-05-2015)

08-05-2015, 06:47 PM	#8
wifi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lakes Region Posts: 1,321 Thanks: 282 Thanked 287 Times in 169 Posts	This is all theoretical. I have a neighbor that sawed down trees to improve his views, about 10 feet from the lake. Tore down and rebuilt a shore line rock wall, Installed a 20x20 cement pad to install a new dock. Tore out and rebuilt a beach, paved his driveway, within 50 feet of the lake, Ripped out his lawn within 20 feet of the lake, and planted what looked good, ALL with no permit. Neighbors complained, no results. He now has a nice place. The lesson, as stated before, just do it, and chances are you won't be caught. His place is now for sale, Caveat Emptor, I guess.

The Following User Says Thank You to secondcurve For This Useful Post:
tummyman (08-08-2015)

08-07-2015, 08:09 PM	#11
winnipiseogee Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 297 Thanks: 67 Thanked 152 Times in 79 Posts	I remember calling DES when we first moved back to NH. I knew the rules were strict and I wanted to do the right thing. I remember being told that if there was a spot in my yard where puddles formed after a rain I could be in violation by dumping grass clippings in that spot. It pretty much convinced me then and there that anything I did would be a violation - oh well why bother?? Shorethings - please don't take this as a criticism of you. You are an incredibly helpful part of the forum and I appreciate your pragmatic understanding of the rules. Unfortunately not everyone shares your common sense take on these things.

The Following User Says Thank You to winnipiseogee For This Useful Post:
AC2717 (08-12-2015)