Will NH lakes be safer?

[Woodsy]

Actually Evenstar you are flat wrong on this. You cannot tell the approaching speed of a boat heading straight towards you on a Zero (0) bearing. Nodody can! Your only reference to boat speed would be the noise the boat is making.

The distance you are able to see within a 360 degree arc is also limited by the height of your head above the water and wave action. The higher your head above the surface of the water, the greater distance you can see. If your head is only 3' above the waters surface while kayaking and you are playing in 2' waves, your 360 degree visibility is extremely limited. On my boat, while standing in the bolsters, my head is approximately 10' above the surface of the water, allowing for much greater range of visibility. I think you can see concord from the bridge of some of those big cruisers!

A small flag similar to that of one used on a childs bicycle will not make your craft unstable. It will allow for much greater visibility, and the more visible you are, the safer you will be, regardless of boat speed.

I do agree with you that paddles are the most easily seen because they are in motion. The human eye is very sensitive to motion. Thats why a small (emphasis on small) triangular flag bobbing back & forth on a whip will greatly aid in visibility.

Your chances of getting run over while playing in the Broads are nil. Too much room and plenty of visibility. Your chances of getting run over in the Weirs increases exponentially as the number of boats increases and they are confined to a small area. You won't get run over by a boat going faster than 45 MPH in the Weirs... its just too congested.

Woodsy

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Actually Evenstar you are flat wrong on this. You cannot tell the approaching speed of a boat heading straight towards you on a Zero (0) bearing.

A boat can be approching me, without being on a zero bearing - which is what I was talking about.

Two foot waves go up and down. My visibility is just fine in waves. If my visibility is so limited, how come I NEVER have trouble spotting other kayaks even when they are a mile or more away, yet many powerboaters say that they have trouble seeing us? I think that visibility is much more of an issue as speed increases - due to many factors.

A small flag similar to that of one used on a childs bicycle will not make your craft unstable. It will allow for much greater visibility, and the more visible you are, the safer you will be, regardless of boat speed.

Well, you are "flat wrong" about this. I'd love to see someone try to roll a kayak that has a flag on a pole attached to it! Self rescues whould be nearly impossible to perform. Do you have any idea of what it's like to paddlle a 23" wide sea kayak in windy conditions? You control these boats by balance and by putting them on edge - which would be virtually impossible in any cross winds, if there was any kind of flag attached to a long pole, which is attached to the kayak. Don't you know anything about leverage? If you can't see my bright red kayak, or my 2 foot square red pfd, or the bright orange blades of my paddles, you're certainly not going to see a little flag. Even the blades of my paddles are bigger than the flag you mentioned.

Your chances of getting run over while playing in the Broads are nil. Too much room and plenty of visibility.

So collisions have never happened in open areas of a large lake? Powerboats traveling at high speeds on an open lake have run into each other. How does that happen? One would think that they could spot each other miles away - yet these kinds of accidents still happen. Maybe powerboats should have large flags on a long pole attached to them.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

A boat can be approching me, without being on a zero bearing - which is what I was talking about.

Two foot waves go up and down. My visibility is just fine in waves. If my visibility is so limited, how come I NEVER have trouble spotting other kayaks even when they are a mile or more away, yet many powerboaters say that they have trouble seeing us? I think that visibility is much more of an issue as speed increases - due to many factors.


Well, you are "flat wrong" about this. I'd love to see someone try to roll a kayak that has a flag on a pole attached to it! Self rescues whould be nearly impossible to perform. Do you have any idea of what it's like to paddlle a 23" wide sea kayak in windy conditions? You control these boats by balance and by putting them on edge - which would be virtually impossible in any cross winds, if there was any kind of flag attached to a long pole, which is attached to the kayak. Don't you know anything about leverage? If you can't see my bright red kayak, or my 2 foot square red pfd, or the bright orange blades of my paddles, you're certainly not going to see a little flag. Even the blades of my paddles are bigger than the flag you mentioned.


So collisions have never happened in open areas of a large lake? Powerboats traveling at high speeds on an open lake have run into each other. How does that happen? One would think that they could spot each other miles away - yet these kinds of accidents still happen. Maybe powerboats should have large flags on a long pole attached to them.

EvenStar..

Do you understand the rules of navigation? That video has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with being an complete idiot! That speeding boat that you are so afraid of being run over by is a U.S. Coast Guard Patrol Boat, probably similar in layout to the one the MP have on Lake Winnipesaukee. It wasn't somebody driving a Hi-Performance boat! The helmsman at the controls of the USCG Patrol Boat was WRONG! I did not hear any siren or horn that indicated they were enroute to an emergency and thus be given the right of way. In this instance the Coast Guard boat was the give way vessel... he didn't yield right of way and the little boat got run over! He should have chopped his throttles and turned to starboard in order to miss the little boat. Of course on the Great Lakes where this occured there is no 150' Safe Passage Rule... so he could have missed the little boat by a few feet and all would be well and legal!

If the boat is not approaching you on a Zero bearing then its not going to collide with you. Your forward motion of 5-6MPH is pretty similar to the headway speed of any powered vessel and is pretty negligible. Its that simple. Speed is very difficult to judge on the water because you have no point of reference. Its not like a car where you have trees and signs etc to give you a point of reference.

I can concede your point on the flags. Rolling a kayak with a flag might add a bit of difficulty, but it will not be immpossible. Perhaps if they add a requirement that instead of a flag, you are required to have hunter orange paddle blades and wear a hunter orange PFD... would that work for you? Last year on the weekend after July 4th I witnessed 3 kayakers out at out at dusk in a dark green kayaks, black wetsuit tops and no lights... That is a recipe for disaster. I don't think all kayakers and other paddlers are that irresponsible.

I do understand your fear, and to you its real. But statistically you can safely enjoy your sport on the big lake without compromising another individuals personal freedom. Nobody has been run over in a kayak or canoe by a speeding boat on Lake Winnipesaukee! Boating accidents are down dramatically since the inception of a BSC requirement. To point, accidents are down 68%!

Woodsy

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

EvenStar..

Do you understand the rules of navigation? That video has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with being an complete idiot! That speeding boat that you are so afraid of being run over by is a U.S. Coast Guard Patrol Boat, probably similar in layout to the one the MP have on Lake Winnipesaukee. It wasn't somebody driving a Hi-Performance boat! The helmsman at the controls of the USCG Patrol Boat was WRONG!

It was actually a USCG Auxilliary boat according to a post on another forum. The USCG crew footage was spliced in by the media. Apparently, the USCG Auxilliary in that area is not very selective... Note the flopping fenders hanging off the starboard side prior to the collision too.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

EvenStar..
Do you understand the rules of navigation? That video has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with being an complete idiot! That speeding boat that you are so afraid of being run over by is a U.S. Coast Guard Patrol Boat, probably similar in layout to the one the MP have on Lake Winnipesaukee. . . . Of course on the Great Lakes where this occured there is no 150' Safe Passage Rule... so he could have missed the little boat by a few feet and all would be well and legal!

Yes, I understand the navigation rules. Were were discussing visibility, and my point was that powerboaters run into each other out on open water, when visibility is just fine. The operator of the smaller boat admitted that he never even saw the coast guard vessel – a boat that is way larger and way more visible than any kayak. The 150’ rule is a great law, but it won’t prevent a collision, when someone doesn’t even notice that another vessel is in their path. If a kayaker had been in the path of that smaller boat, he would not likely have survived.

If the boat is not approaching you on a Zero bearing then its not going to collide with you. Your forward motion of 5-6MPH is pretty similar to the headway speed of any powered vessel and is pretty negligible. Its that simple. Speed is very difficult to judge on the water because you have no point of reference. Its not like a car where you have trees and signs etc to give you a point of reference.

I understand all that, but boats change direction - constantly. I can be safe one second and directly in the path of an approaching high speed boat the next. It really doesn’t make any difference if I can or cannot tell exactly how fast that boat is going.

I do understand your fear, and to you its real. But statistically you can safely enjoy your sport on the big lake without compromising another individuals personal freedom.

Look – I kayak for fun. It’s my favorite recreational activity. It’s just not very fun, and certainly not at all relaxing, when I’m out there concerned that one of the many boats traveling at 15 to 20 times my speed might not see me in time to avoid a collision. Every year boats are going faster. PWC also get faster every year. Because of this, NH lakes (not just Winni) are getting less and less enjoyable for paddlers. Our fears are real and our fears are mostly caused by the high speeds of some powerboaters. We can argue about these statistics all you want, but your idea of boating fun is having a very negative impact on many other boaters.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Yes, I understand the navigation rules. Were were discussing visibility, and my point was that powerboaters run into each other out on open water, when visibility is just fine. The operator of the smaller boat admitted that he never even saw the coast guard vessel – a boat that is way larger and way more visible than any kayak. The 150’ rule is a great law, but it won’t prevent a collision, when someone doesn’t even notice that another vessel is in their path. If a kayaker had been in the path of that smaller boat, he would not likely have survived.


I understand all that, but boats change direction - constantly. I can be safe one second and directly in the path of an approaching high speed boat the next. It really doesn’t make any difference if I can or cannot tell exactly how fast that boat is going.


Look – I kayak for fun. It’s my favorite recreational activity. It’s just not very fun, and certainly not at all relaxing, when I’m out there concerned that one of the many boats traveling at 15 to 20 times my speed might not see me in time to avoid a collision. Every year boats are going faster. PWC also get faster every year. Because of this, NH lakes (not just Winni) are getting less and less enjoyable for paddlers. Our fears are real and our fears are mostly caused by the high speeds of some powerboaters. We can argue about these statistics all you want, but your idea of boating fun is having a very negative impact on many other boaters.

Evenstar...

Your the one who stated you "I can certainly tell the difference betweent 45 and 70mph". When you are in a small craft such as a kayak all boats will seem like they are traveling at high speed. Its nice to see that you have conceded the point that you cannot tell how fast a boat is traveling. Boats don't change direction constantly and certainly not at high speed. However, a boat can approach your kayak from any direction, requiring you to keep your head on a swivel and maintain a proper lookout at all times.

Apparently you don't understand the Rules of Navigation. The guy in the small boat was NOT REQUIRED TO YIELD to the USCG boat. Read my post above. The USCG boat broke the rules, not the little guy, regardless of his admission of inattention. If he had seen the USCG boat, certainly he could have adjusted his course/speed and the collision could have been avoided. It still doesn't change the fact that the USCG boat was in the wrong, the little boat was the stand on boat.

Boats do collide, and the collision in the video above ocurred at speeds well below 45 MPH. The primary reason for that collision is OPERATOR INATTENTION on the part of the USCG boat. Excessive Speed had nothing to do with this accident other than both boats were on plane. If a kayaker had been in the path of either boat I am sure they would have been able to avoid the kayaker. In the video above both operators were singularly focused on what was directly ahead of them, and not any possible dangers approaching from the side.

I have no doubt that kayaking out in the Broads can be a bit nervewracking on a busy summer saturday. I really do understand that. There are quite a few boats out there and while your busy paddling the waves, you don't want to worry about getting run over. The problem is, regardless of a Speed Limit, or a Safe Passage Law, you are primarily responsible for your own safety.

The 150' Safe Passage Rule, or a Speed Limit law, or any other type of law or rule of navigation will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to protect you if the operator of the boat is not paying attention. If the operator of the boat is paying attention, then you are in absolutely no danger! I am sorry you can't seem to grasp this very simple concept.

Woodsy

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Evenstar...
Your the one who stated you "I can certainly tell the difference betweent 45 and 70mph". When you are in a small craft such as a kayak all boats will seem like they are traveling at high speed. Its nice to see that you have conceded the point that you cannot tell how fast a boat is traveling.

Hey, I actually posted that: “I can certainly tell the difference between 45 and 70mph, when a boat is reasonably close to me!” I’m still standing by that statement. You’re the one who assumed that I was talking about a boat that was on a collision course with me (at a zero heading), which I wasn’t. (I even stated that in my next reply to you.)

I read your entire post, and who was at more at fault was never my point. That video shows two powerboats colliding on open water, when visibility was very good. That was my entire point. That’s what you and I were discussing earlier. How would that powerboat operator, who didn’t even see a Coast Guard vessel, have seen a much smaller boat????

The problem is, regardless of a Speed Limit, or a Safe Passage Law, you are primarily responsible for your own safety.

And what am I supposed to do to prevent being run over by a speeding powerboat??? Believe me, I’m extremely aware of everything on the water, and when I see a powerboat heading in my direction, I make every effort to stay out of his path. But I can only paddle so fast. At my top speed of about 7 feet per second, it takes me over 2 seconds just to travel the length of my kayak, and during those 2 seconds a boat traveling at 70 mph would have covered over 200 feet. Sort of puts me at a slight disadvantage, doesn't it?

If the operator of the boat is paying attention, then you are in absolutely no danger! I am sorry you can't seem to grasp this very simple concept.

If???

That’s the problem!

If a powerboat operator sees me, then I’m in no danger.
If a powerboat operator is paying attention, then I’m in no danger.
If a powerboat operator hasn’t been drinking, then I’m in no danger.

But if just one of these things doesn’t happen 100% of the time, with 100% of the powerboat operators who I’m sharing a lake with - then I am potentially in great danger.

If the operator of a powerboat doesn’t see me because he’s not paying attention (or for any other reason), I have a much better chance of getting out of his way IF he’s traveling at a slower speed. That’s my whole reason for wanting a speed limit.

(BTW: I have no problem grasping any of the “simple concepts” you guys have presented – the problem is that most of you don’t take your concepts far enough for me. You just use them as far as they support your arguments, and conveniently leave out the parts that don’t.)

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Hey, I actually posted that: “I can certainly tell the difference between 45 and 70mph, when a boat is reasonably close to me!” I’m still standing by that statement. You’re the one who assumed that I was talking about a boat that was on a collision course with me (at a zero heading), which I wasn’t. (I even stated that in my next reply to you.)

I read your entire post, and who was at more at fault was never my point. That video shows two powerboats colliding on open water, when visibility was very good. That was my entire point. That’s what you and I were discussing earlier. How would that powerboat operator, who didn’t even see a Coast Guard vessel, have seen a much smaller boat????


And what am I supposed to do to prevent being run over by a speeding powerboat??? Believe me, I’m extremely aware of everything on the water, and when I see a powerboat heading in my direction, I make every effort to stay out of his path. But I can only paddle so fast. At my top speed of about 7 feet per second, it takes me over 2 seconds just to travel the length of my kayak, and during those 2 seconds a boat traveling at 70 mph would have covered over 200 feet. Sort of puts me at a slight disadvantage, doesn't it?



If???

That’s the problem!

If a powerboat operator sees me, then I’m in no danger.
If a powerboat operator is paying attention, then I’m in no danger.
If a powerboat operator hasn’t been drinking, then I’m in no danger.

But if just one of these things doesn’t happen 100% of the time, with 100% of the powerboat operators who I’m sharing a lake with - then I am potentially in great danger.

If the operator of a powerboat doesn’t see me because he’s not paying attention (or for any other reason), I have a much better chance of getting out of his way IF he’s traveling at a slower speed. That’s my whole reason for wanting a speed limit.

(BTW: I have no problem grasping any of the “simple concepts” you guys have presented – the problem is that most of you don’t take your concepts far enough for me. You just use them as far as they support your arguments, and conveniently leave out the parts that don’t.)

Evenstar...

Actually you really don't get understand and unfortunately I highly doubt there is any chance that you will... You suffer from inexperience, and you need to get more seat time on Lake Winnipesaukee. Perhaps if you spent more time on the lake you would understand how safe Lake Winnipesaukee truly is. THERE HAVE BEEN NO COLLISIONS BETWEEN A POWERBOAT AND A KAYAK!

The collision in that video was the result of two powerboats on plane, in a crossing situation. The operator of the small boat was the STAND ON boat, and as such he is under NO OBLIGATION to yield to the USCG boat. The USCG boat was the GIVE WAY and as such was supposed to yield to the smaller craft. The issue here is that the USCG boat DID NOT YIELD, DID NOT CHOP HIS THROTTLES AND DID NOT TURN TO STARBOARD as REQUIRED BY the COLREGS!

A more accurate description of accident you would be concerned with is one where a boat operator is not paying attention and runs his boat into a marked hazard such as a rock. Only in your case, you can possibly squirt out of the way if YOU happen notice the other boat in time.

The possibility of a collsion between watercraft always exists, it is no different than the possibility of of an automobile collision. With the statistical exception that you are far more likely to be in an automobile collision that you are in a boat collision. In fact last year there was a collsion between a small SeaRay and a STATIONARY Pontoon Boat. The collision occured at speed much less than the proposed 45 MPH. Speed isn't the problem, its operator inattention and operator inexperience that is the root cause of most accidents. If one were to follow your theory, boats shouldn't be allowed to travel faster than headway speed..

I will stand by my statement that there is absolutely no way for you to tell the difference on the water between 45MPH and 70 MPH. What is reasonably close? 50'? 150'? 500'? 1000'? If you have no visual point of reference you cannot gauge speed. But then again maybe you have some super human vision that allows you to detect that additional 37 FPS while bobbing up and down on the waves?


Woodsy

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

The 150’ rule is a great law, but it won’t prevent a collision, when someone doesn’t even notice that another vessel is in their path. If a kayaker had been in the path of that smaller boat, he would not likely have survived.

Did they lower the bar for acceptance at UNH?

Now you are using inattentive behavior as a reason to justify HB162.

When will the spin end?