Tourism Benefit?

[NightWing]

Don't forget the Business Enterprise Tax, which is .75% of the payroll over $75,000.

[SAMIAM]

Very well said ,Pepper....you covered it all.I think MJP is really Al Gore.

[Winni]

No, I'm not Al Gore. Those of you who know me personally, and some of you do, know I'm not just blowing my horn. I really do love dearly the state of NH and I am in awe of the place I live every day, so when I say I care, I am sincere. You all helped clear up a lot for me. I really did never understand how this all worked. Pepper, you did an especially good job of explaining. In a way, I too am a small business person now, as I have my own little writing and web site business, but because it never even comes close to the kinds of numbers you are talking about, I never really understood how more tourists were helping us.

I do still believe there has to be some kind of balance and control, and I do appreciate all of the business people who sacrifice during the weather problems we've been having and understood that we do have to have regulations to maintain our way of life and natural surroundings that make NH so special. I appreciate your taking the time to help me understand the business side of things as well.

One thing I will tell you, though, is regardless of which state I happen to be travelling in, and especially when I am at home in NH, I always try to shop and eat at locally owned establishments. In my head, I'm still always rooting for the little guy, the local shop owner and the restaurants where the owner is always circulating and helping out. So call me "Al" or whatever you want, but I really am a "back to basics" kind of gal and love to see the local working folks do well. I've dealt with too many mean, fat cats in my business and personal life. But, I must not let my prejudice interfere with my understanding. So, what say we close this thread? Know you have all helped me understand, which is just what I asked for, and, you were all really nice about it, too!

[hiker47]

Fact: Tourism is essential to the NH economy, no question. Taxes from tourism is a big part of the State income and is part of the reason for no income or general sales tax (both can be debated another time).
Fact: The taxes on property by the State is also essential for education, although some towns use the revenue for other purposes. Lake front property is assesed at a much higher level and thus the actual tax amount is significantly higher. (The arguement over equity, high sales prices, etc. can also be debated at another time)
Fact: Lake shore property is and has been damaged by flooding on several occasions. Not not only is this costly to repaior but also the environmental effects and cost cannot be adequately or accurately determined.

Having said all of this, an idea. Keep tourism healthy and help NH and it's citizens to prosper. But also assist the lake shore property owners with a property tax credit for damage to property, inability to use and enjoy their property (a lrge part of the increased assesments). Think about it. YIS, Doc

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by hiker47

Having said all of this, an idea. Keep tourism healthy and help NH and it's citizens to prosper. But also assist the lake shore property owners with a property tax credit for damage to property, inability to use and enjoy their property (a lrge part of the increased assesments). Think about it. YIS, Doc

Lakefront property owners are not assessed at a higher rate than anyone else. They pay same tax rate per $1000. Their property just happens to be ALOT more valuable because of supply and demand.

The citizens of NH own to the high water mark, the property owners do not own to the waters edge. If a waterfront property owner did not build thier dock to withstand the lake level at the historical high water mark, thats not my problem. A lake 1' above full is hardly a flood of epic proportions, nor should it qualify anyone for any sort of tax break.

Shoreline erosion is an issue, no doubt to be discussed at length. There will be some extra erosion due to the boat traffic and high water. I am sure some shoreline erosion was deemed acceptable to keep the tourist $$$. Especially when factor in the lack of winter tourism $$$ and the fiscal burden of repairing the infrastructure damage caused by the flooding.

I am sure the loons and other wildlife will do just fine. The real threat to them is not shoreline erosion, but lack of habitat. Perhaps we should tear down all of these shoreline camps & houses to restore the lake to a more natural setting? The mother loon and her little loonlings seemed to be doing fine at my dock in Paugus bay on saturday evening. I wish I had a camera to snap a pic, as it was a pretty cool sight.

Woodsy

[Winni]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Lakefront property owners are not assessed at a higher rate than anyone else.

I'm not going to get into this debate; frankly I'm just too tired of it all to continue. I found I must correct you on this point, however. Lakefront property owners ARE assessed at a higher rate. We have something, at least in Alton, called a view tax added on when our property is assessed. This year they began assessing at 100% value and the "view" adds a lot. Shore front here is assessed at a much higher value.

Since the information is available to the public on-line, I'll give you an example. This example is for less than 1/2 acre, in fact, .43 acres to be exact. The land use coding is "waterfront". It is assessed at, FOR THE LAND ALONE, $625,000. You think .43 acres, land only, is assessed for that in oh, say, Warren, NH or any other non-waterfront spot?

[Woodsy]

MJP...

Its not really a debate... you need to separate facts from your perception!

That specific piece of property is assessed at the SAME TAX RATE PER $1000 as everyone else. You do not pay anymore per $1000 than anyone else.

There is no such thing as a view tax! Waterfront & views add value to the property and this is reflected in that property's tax assessment. One of the biggest prime factors in determining your tax assessment is what a similar piece of property actually sold for.

Property that is on the water or has a commanding view is far more valuable than a piece of wooded property in the middle of nowhere. This value is set by the real estate market and it is the very definition of supply and demand. Waterfront property is in great demand with very little supply, thus it is very expensive compared to the same property elsewhere in town. This value is reflected in the tax assessment. In fact, if you took the "waterfront" coding off that same .43 acre lot in Alton it would be assessed at less than $100K.

Woodsy

[ossipeeboater]

Originally Posted by MJP

I'm not going to get into this debate; frankly I'm just too tired of it all to continue. I found I must correct you on this point, however. Lakefront property owners ARE assessed at a higher rate. We have something, at least in Alton, called a view tax added on when our property is assessed. This year they began assessing at 100% value and the "view" adds a lot. Shore front here is assessed at a much higher value.

Since the information is available to the public on-line, I'll give you an example. This example is for less than 1/2 acre, in fact, .43 acres to be exact. The land use coding is "waterfront". It is assessed at, FOR THE LAND ALONE, $625,000. You think .43 acres, land only, is assessed for that in oh, say, Warren, NH or any other non-waterfront spot?

they are not assesed at a higher rate they are taxed on the value of thier lot which is affected by view and ownership of watefront. I know towns play some games with this increasing values far more dramatically on the lake versus inland but the fact is very few lakefront homes are tax assessed for more than their value to people really can't complain. Sure it stinks that the taxes are high and people can't afford to pay them but you don't see people complaining that the camp they bought for $25,000 back in 1975 is now worth $850,000. You can't benefit on the appreciation side and not expect to pay more in taxes.

[Winni]

Originally Posted by ossipeeboater

they are not assesed at a higher rate they are taxed on the value of thier lot which is affected by view and ownership of watefront. I know towns play some games with this increasing values far more dramatically on the lake versus inland but the fact is very few lakefront homes are tax assessed for more than their value to people really can't complain. Sure it stinks that the taxes are high and people can't afford to pay them but you don't see people complaining that the camp they bought for $25,000 back in 1975 is now worth $850,000. You can't benefit on the appreciation side and not expect to pay more in taxes.

First of all, you clearly come from Ossipee, not Alton, so apparently you don't have your facts clear. Yes, our rates are affected in Alton by having land classified by the tax assessor as "waterfront". No, I'm not complaining but my objection was just that the earlier poster's facts were not correct and neither are yours.

Just for "yucks" let me add this, however. We get NO public services where we live and yet we do pay higher taxes. I even had a policeman tell me once when I had an accident on our road and had to call him here, (yes, this is a quote I remember well), "We hate to come down here. This road is so difficult to get through." Now, we happen to like it that way, but folks that don't know the road have difficulty with it and apparently that applies to our police. But, the point is, we even have to pay extra, beyond our taxes, to get a plow to come through here. We get no town water, town sewage, or even town protection unless we call 911 for an emergency. Even then, they often make it very difficult to get someone to come...but that's another long story.

I'd love to leave my place to my kids, but they've told be it's hardly worth it as they know they won't be able to afford to pay the taxes. As I said, I'm not complaining; I love where I live. I can manage to afford it right now, possibly not in the future, but for now I can. We are not, however, all rich and arrogant. Some of us bought our places, commuted hours and hours a day and worked multiple jobs with long hours to be here, and now pay through the nose to live here because we love it. That being so, we want to protect the quickly disappearing natural surroundings as well as our intended way of life. And, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Also, all of you who think we should just "live free" and let anyone do whatever they want should also know that many of us bought our land and homes long before snowmobiles and PWCs were ever even invented. So, stop scolding me for not living somewhere more secluded; I thought I was when I bought. As for the rising value, it doesn't help me any. I can't spend it or even afford to pay for an equity loan to make the money available. Yet, I still have to come up with the money for the escalating taxes, I think often disproportionately, and live on a pretty much fixed income that doesn't even come close to keeping pace with inflation.

All I ask is that you all stop making generalizations about things you know little about and try walking in another's shoes for a while...The End.

[Woodsy]

MJP

Unfortunately it is you who are unclear on the facts and making generalizations. For someone who lives here, you have an amazing lack of understanding of the tax code.

Property taxes in NH are based on current market value. The market value of your property is determined by the Alton Tax Assessor based on a number of things. Size of the property, location of the property, unique features of the property such as waterfront and/or view, and very importantly what similar or comparable properties in Alton have sold for.

Nobody is minimizing whatever it was you or anyone else for that matter had to do to purchase and maintain your property for your family. I do sympathize with those families who are getting forced out due to high property values. A .43 acre waterfront parcel can be assessed for $649K because somebody else purchased a similar property in that price range. More than likely the actual cash value of the property is 5% to 10% higher. The rule of supply and demand is very much in effect. People who are willing to pay higher and higher prices unfortunately set the bar that everyone else has to follow. Blame your old neighbors for selling out and your new neighbors for being willing to pay exorbitantly for that type of property.

I don't like paying taxes any more than the next guy. Like you I live on a private road in a development that gets very little support from the town, in my case it is Laconia. I too have to pay extra for snow removal and trash removal. We are connected to the town water and sewer, but that was a mandate from the Laconia Planning Board in order for the development to be built. When I purchased my house, the deed clearly stated that the property was located on a private road that was maintained by a homeowners association. When you bought your property your deed was just as clear the road you live on was not a public road and not maintained by the town. You and your neighbors can petition the town to accept your road as public and thus maintain it, however I doubt you'll be successful in that endeavor.

Woodsy

[ossipeeboater]

Originally Posted by MJP

First of all, you clearly come from Ossipee, not Alton, so apparently you don't have your facts clear. Yes, our rates are affected in Alton by having land classified by the tax assessor as "waterfront". No, I'm not complaining but my objection was just that the earlier poster's facts were not correct and neither are yours.

All I ask is that you all stop making generalizations about things you know little about and try walking in another's shoes for a while...The End.

I also pay more than twice what the average home in the same town pays strictly because I own 100 feet of waterfront. No one I've seen said you don't pay more taxes for being waterfront, you do because your house is worth more but that's the system. NH has relied on property taxes for decades and those taxes have been assessed based on value for decades. Alton's 2005 tax rate was $10.27/thousand, take your typical older camp and put it onto the same size lot off the lake and most would be lucky to get $150,000 for them which therefore would make the taxes around $1500. No one would buy a 800sf house that hasn't been updated in 30 years for $600-800,000 if it wasn't on the water but those sell as soon as they come up and that's why that waterfront tax bill is $6000-8000. Either way you pay 10.27 per $1000 of assessed value. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it that property has increased in value over the time you've owned the property therefore the taxes have also increased.

Truthfully I wish all towns would go to allowing a lein to be placed in lieu of taxes(we have that in places like Portsmouth not sure if anywhere in the lakes region does this) for the older homeowner that could be paid off with interest when the ower dies or transfers ownership. As far as not being able to leave properties to future generations it's not up to the government to make sure thats possible, if they really want the property when your gone they can figure out a way to work hard to keep it. As you youself said "Some of us bought our places, commuted hours and hours a day and worked multiple jobs with long hours to be here", your kids and mine can do the same if it's something they want for themselves.

[tis]

Some people from Orford just sued over the view tax. I believe it was relatives of the former governor. In Tuftonboro, if you had a view it was added to the base assessment. That was done by Avitar as I believe Orford was too.

[Winni]

Ok, guys/gals, look; I'm sick of writing and sticking up for what I say on this forum. Here's the deal:

1) I admitted I knew little about the business tax; that's why I started the thread, to ASK a question and get, as I asked, a "calm and unemotional" (my original words) response. It was not to be open season on MJP, thank you very much, ossipeeboater and Woodsy.

Some folks were nice enough to explain the business tax to me and now I understand. It should have ended when the person who started the thread, i.e. me, asked it to end, but silly me, I haven't started enough threads to actually need to figure out how to close them yet. In fact, I never felt the need to end a thread I had started because people never treated me this way in the threads I started. I was under the (apparently incorrect) impression that these were suppose to be friendly and informative forums!

2) So, you can go ahead and call me "stupid", which is what you're really dying to do, and tell me how to actually "close" a thread, i.e. prevent further postings, if you know how. I don't know the mechanism for doing that on this forum. Get it; I'm "asking"!

3) As for this whole tax issue, here's the deal. I said, I believe a number of times, I'm NOT complaining! I am actually not as dumb as you two seem to be trying to imply. What you don't know is the "view tax" is real. A neighbor of ours went to the town to appeal his taxes and was told "waterfront" is a factor, that is, "factor" in the mathematical sense, in how our taxes are calculated. Now, he may have given me incorrect information or misunderstood it himself, but I tend to believe him as he is generally a very intelligently spoken and educated man.

Right or wrong about that, that is not really the point is it? The point is, "per acre or square foot", not "per thousand". You are talking fruit when I'm talking vegetables (not just "apples and oranges"). What difference does it make anyway? This all has nothing to do with my original question or even the topic and I'm really sick of the insults.

Bottom line: I love where I live. I understood I would get no services from the town when I bought here and was just adding that information for those that might not understand that. I get that I would and forever more will pay dearly for the right to live where I do.

But, I do love this place more than anything next to my family, friends, and cats. I will die here if I have any choice about it. I would fight to the bloody death to protect the rural character of NH, the original respectful nature of those New-Hampshirites who also care, and the natural environment of NH. I personally believe that is what "Live Free or Die" is suppose to mean, but it is twisted about these days to have meanings totally unrelated and to serve the personal whims of individuals instead. (No; I don't want to start another debate. I'm just saying that is "my" opinion.)

You two who are trying so hard to put me down so cleverly on my lack of "knowledge" are not very knowledgeable when it comes to the economy. Our children's generation is the first generation ever that statistically will earn less, on average, in their lifetimes than generations before them. NO; they won't be able to just work harder to live here. They just won't be able to live here...period. It makes me very sad because they too would fight to the bloody death to protect NH, something I'm finding out, sadly, a lot of people see as not very important. I'm not doing this anymore. Tell me how to close this thread or, Don, please do it for me. This was not what I wanted it to be.

Thanks very, very much to those who cared enough to give me the original information I requested and were nice about it.

[ossipeeboater]

Originally Posted by MJP

You two who are trying so hard to put me down so cleverly on my lack of "knowledge" are not very knowledgeable when it comes to the economy. Our children's generation is the first generation ever that statistically will earn less, on average, in their lifetimes than generations before them. NO; they won't be able to just work harder to live here. They just won't be able to live here...period. It makes me very sad because they too would fight to the bloody death to protect NH, something I'm finding out, sadly, a lot of people see as not very important. I'm not doing this anymore. Tell me how to close this thread or, Don, please do it for me. This was not what I wanted it to be.

looking back I can't see where I insulted you once but your certainly called into question my knowledge.

As far as the above post I prefer to think of the cup as half full. Life gives you what you put into it and your kids have every opportunity to make what they want out of life it's what makes America great. I'm a member of generation X who were also told back when I was in college our generation would never have what our parents have which was crap then just as it is now. You have to adapt to the changing world but the american dream is alive and well today if your willing to work for it.

[Weirs guy]

So let me get this straight, the only thing to do in NH is boat on winni? And beyond that the lakes only open a few weeks a year during flooding?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

The "view tax" is really symantics. I regularly value real estate in Alton and surrounds (for a living). The tax rate is the same for everyone, $10.27 at 98.6%. What is different is the market value of the property. What people are willing to pay determines market value. Tax assesments in large part are based on selling price of comparable properties (market value).

People tend to argue, for tax assesment purposes, that their property is worth less than its assesed for, but when they go to sell, defend the fact that its worth more (despite what the market says)