Ridiculous "No Wake" Declaration

Gatto Nero · 06-03-2006, 03:26 PM

Yeah, by signing in section 9 of the form the Conservation Commission is waiving its right to intervene. I guess that makes it easier on DES and speeds up the process.

Here's the link to a pdf version of the from itself. It's pretty self explanatory.

http://www.des.nh.gov/wetlands/pbn/PBNForm.pdf

Sparrow Hawk · 06-03-2006, 06:10 PM

So if the permitting process isn't that difficult, my hypothesis about negligent dock owners is probably accurate. I know that the majority of owners do a good job of keeping their structures maintained, but even if only 20% of owners are negligent, there can be a very big problem such as the one that exists today. Based upon this, I think that requiring annual inspections would be a good idea.

DRH · 06-04-2006, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow Hawk

So if the permitting process isn't that difficult, my hypothesis about negligent dock owners is probably accurate. I know that the majority of owners do a good job of keeping their structures maintained, but even if only 20% of owners are negligent, there can be a very big problem such as the one that exists today. Based upon this, I think that requiring annual inspections would be a good idea.

Actually, your hypothisis about "negligent dock owners" is pretty silly. For a dock to be 100% secure against any type of high water condition or storm, it would pretty much have to be built at least 3 or more feet above the "full lake" level. Think not? Think again. Many docks have little protection from the prevailing northwest wind and waves, or from big northeast waves from where the winds howl during a typical New England "nor'easter". During bad storms, waves can easily build to 3' or higher and they then crash over all docks (and shoreline) they encounter. Yes, many docks are protected by breakwaters, but breakwaters are extremely expensive to construct and the DES has very strict permitting requirements for them. In many areas of the lake, breakwaters are not allowed at all. So in severe weather conditions, even well-designed and structurally sound docks can sometimes be damaged. Next time you get in or out of your boat, think about how high that dock would have to be to be totally secure in all weather or lake level conditions.

I find it interesting that since you joined this Forum on 5/30/06, most of your 11 posts have been negative, critical, or both. How about sitting back and giving some serious thought to the issues being discussed here before you submit your next one?

ApS · 06-05-2006, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRH

"...In many areas of the lake, breakwaters are not allowed at all..."

There are other Winnipesaukee locations, swept by the NW wind's rolling "seas", that are too deep for a maintainable breakwater. (Like my location).

I agree with RG that there should be an automatic NWZ at a certain lake level.

In recent memory, there have been five Winnipesaukee episodes where dock damage has been a factor. Surely flooding of southeastern New Hampshire during the extreme weather events such as we've been having would lead the powers-that-be to maintain a lower lake level. We've all managed to boat in Fall, when the waters are egregiously low.

I can't help thinking that the increase in average boat size hasn't played into the lake-height mix. What is a lakefront owner to do?

This boathouse received two new docks last summer, and was fully cross-braced against a winter's ice that didn't arrive! It doesn't look so "new" today.

Onshore · 06-04-2006, 10:08 AM

DRH and Gatto Negro Thanks guys) have explained the application processes well enough that I'm not go to go into more detail but I would like to offer some other points for people to consider.

Any seasonal dock can be removed and repaired or even completely replaced, without a permit so long as there is no change in the size, location or configuration of the structure. It's a good idea to take photos of the old structure, in place, any time you're going to completely replace it.

Permits are good for 5 years. If you have recieved a permit within the last 5 years to build or repair your structures and you've taken more damage you can repair them again under the same permit (check the expiration date and make sure it is still valid). It is a really good idea to let the local Conservation Commission know that you are going to be working on a pre-existing permit before the neighbors call them and you should post a photo copy of the permit on site as well. Also... make sure you get a permit from the town if necessary.

There is nothing that says you can't get a permit before structures get damaged. Whether you file a Permit by Notifaction or a Minimum Impact Expedited Application the filing fee is $100. While some people may not want to put up money for a permit before they actually need it. Other may think it is worth it to know that if anything (walls, docks, pilings...) is damaged over the next five years they already have the permit in place and can simply find someone to do the work. It can really cut down on your stress level when the time comes. Once you have done the application it is very easy to copy the information and renew it again when it expires in 5 years. Please note that you can not do this for beach replenishment. All permits for beach replenishment carry a specific condition stating they can only be used for sand [B]once.[B]

The Permit by Notifcation and MInimum Expedited Application have the same fee and require all the same information. Other than the timeframes for processing by the state there is only one difference between them. If you file the Notification you receive a letter stating that your Notification was accepted. If you file the Expedited Application you get an actual permitl. If time is not a factor, I personally prefer to have a permit in hand. Having that piece of paper in hand or on site can put a stop to unnecessary problems before they get started. Also a permit is more easily recorded with the Registry of Deeds (this is required for all dock permits and nofications). Having the recorded permit verifying that the structures are all legal can also be very helpful if you ever decide to sell the property. This is something that more and more realtors seem to be looking for these days.

If you have a permit for a new seasonal, hinged pier, the concrete pad is supposed to be reccessed into the bank. This isn't just for the purpose of keeping fill out of the lake...It also makes it far less likely that the ice will "grab" onto it and relocate it. this will save you some sreious headaches in the future.

Sparrow Hawk please keep in mind that for many people their lake property is not their home and that home may be far enough away to preclude checking on their property immediately after ice out. Every dock on the lake is at risk of ice damage, circulator or not. Most people don't realize their dock has been damaged until the first time they come in for vacation, which is seldom before Memorial Day. Unfortunately this year we had an extreme flood event before Memorial Day. Docks which were already weakened by this winter's ice couldn't stand up to the high water and waves hitting them from angles they just couldn't practically be designed to handle. I'm sure that in many cases the owners of the docks would have made necessary repairs to their structures had they had they opportunity, but they just didn't get the chance. On the other hand, there is a small percentage of people who are in fact, just plain negligent.

As for annual inspections... Just who is going to volunteer to pay for that program?

Gavia immer · 06-04-2006, 04:28 PM

When would "annual" inspections be carried out?

In Summer, when it's too early? Or at Ice-out, when it's too late?

Just Sold · 06-04-2006, 05:12 PM

Here is the link to the dock and other waterfront regulations:

http://www.des.state.nh.us/factsheet...ands/wb-12.htm

I find it to be very informative and helpful for my clients when questions arise.

Here are a few others that are helpful:

New Hampshire Watersheds: http://nhwatersheds.unh.edu/quality.html
UNH Center for Fresh Water Biology: http://cfb.unh.edu/
New Hampshire Shoreland Protection Act: http://www.des.state.nh.us/cspa/cspa_rulelaws.htm
New Hampshire Official List of Public Waters: http://www.des.state.nh.us/asp/cspa/official.asp
NH Restrict Bodies of water (Partial List): http://www.state.nh.us/safety/ss/bodies.html
New Hampshire Fish and Game: http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Fishing/fishing.htm

Weekend Pundit · 06-04-2006, 07:47 PM

I still plan to keep to headway speed even when we're more than 600' from shore until the lake level comes close to the normal full level. I too saw many wakes traveling much farther than 600'. Friends of mine in Alton Bay had quite a bit of damage done to their dock by wakes generated by boats more than 600 feet from the shore.

It wouldn't surprise me to find that the piece of dock shown in RG's picture belonged to them!

06-03-2006, 03:26 PM	#1
Gatto Nero Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Isola Gatto Nero Posts: 697 Thanks: 162 Thanked 263 Times in 81 Posts	Waiver of intervention Yeah, by signing in section 9 of the form the Conservation Commission is waiving its right to intervene. I guess that makes it easier on DES and speeds up the process. Here's the link to a pdf version of the from itself. It's pretty self explanatory. http://www.des.nh.gov/wetlands/pbn/PBNForm.pdf __________________ La vita è buona su Isola Gatto Nero

06-04-2006, 10:08 AM	#5
Onshore Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 505 Thanks: 12 Thanked 428 Times in 147 Posts	thoughts on dock maintenence... DRH and Gatto Negro Thanks guys) have explained the application processes well enough that I'm not go to go into more detail but I would like to offer some other points for people to consider. Any seasonal dock can be removed and repaired or even completely replaced, without a permit so long as there is no change in the size, location or configuration of the structure. It's a good idea to take photos of the old structure, in place, any time you're going to completely replace it. Permits are good for 5 years. If you have recieved a permit within the last 5 years to build or repair your structures and you've taken more damage you can repair them again under the same permit (check the expiration date and make sure it is still valid). It is a really good idea to let the local Conservation Commission know that you are going to be working on a pre-existing permit before the neighbors call them and you should post a photo copy of the permit on site as well. Also... make sure you get a permit from the town if necessary. There is nothing that says you can't get a permit before structures get damaged. Whether you file a Permit by Notifaction or a Minimum Impact Expedited Application the filing fee is $100. While some people may not want to put up money for a permit before they actually need it. Other may think it is worth it to know that if anything (walls, docks, pilings...) is damaged over the next five years they already have the permit in place and can simply find someone to do the work. It can really cut down on your stress level when the time comes. Once you have done the application it is very easy to copy the information and renew it again when it expires in 5 years. Please note that you can not do this for beach replenishment. All permits for beach replenishment carry a specific condition stating they can only be used for sand [B]once.[B] The Permit by Notifcation and MInimum Expedited Application have the same fee and require all the same information. Other than the timeframes for processing by the state there is only one difference between them. If you file the Notification you receive a letter stating that your Notification was accepted. If you file the Expedited Application you get an actual permitl. If time is not a factor, I personally prefer to have a permit in hand. Having that piece of paper in hand or on site can put a stop to unnecessary problems before they get started. Also a permit is more easily recorded with the Registry of Deeds (this is required for all dock permits and nofications). Having the recorded permit verifying that the structures are all legal can also be very helpful if you ever decide to sell the property. This is something that more and more realtors seem to be looking for these days. If you have a permit for a new seasonal, hinged pier, the concrete pad is supposed to be reccessed into the bank. This isn't just for the purpose of keeping fill out of the lake...It also makes it far less likely that the ice will "grab" onto it and relocate it. this will save you some sreious headaches in the future. Sparrow Hawk please keep in mind that for many people their lake property is not their home and that home may be far enough away to preclude checking on their property immediately after ice out. Every dock on the lake is at risk of ice damage, circulator or not. Most people don't realize their dock has been damaged until the first time they come in for vacation, which is seldom before Memorial Day. Unfortunately this year we had an extreme flood event before Memorial Day. Docks which were already weakened by this winter's ice couldn't stand up to the high water and waves hitting them from angles they just couldn't practically be designed to handle. I'm sure that in many cases the owners of the docks would have made necessary repairs to their structures had they had they opportunity, but they just didn't get the chance. On the other hand, there is a small percentage of people who are in fact, just plain negligent. As for annual inspections... Just who is going to volunteer to pay for that program?

06-04-2006, 05:12 PM	#7
Just Sold Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Suncook, NH, but at The Lake at Heart Posts: 2,615 Thanks: 1,083 Thanked 434 Times in 210 Posts	Helpful Links Here is the link to the dock and other waterfront regulations: http://www.des.state.nh.us/factsheet...ands/wb-12.htm I find it to be very informative and helpful for my clients when questions arise. Here are a few others that are helpful: New Hampshire Watersheds: http://nhwatersheds.unh.edu/quality.html UNH Center for Fresh Water Biology: http://cfb.unh.edu/ New Hampshire Shoreland Protection Act: http://www.des.state.nh.us/cspa/cspa_rulelaws.htm New Hampshire Official List of Public Waters: http://www.des.state.nh.us/asp/cspa/official.asp NH Restrict Bodies of water (Partial List): http://www.state.nh.us/safety/ss/bodies.html New Hampshire Fish and Game: http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Fishing/fishing.htm __________________ Just Sold At the lake the stress of daily life just melts away. Pro Re Nata

06-04-2006, 07:47 PM	#8
Weekend Pundit Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Gilford Posts: 362 Thanks: 26 Thanked 70 Times in 43 Posts	In The Mean Time... I still plan to keep to headway speed even when we're more than 600' from shore until the lake level comes close to the normal full level. I too saw many wakes traveling much farther than 600'. Friends of mine in Alton Bay had quite a bit of damage done to their dock by wakes generated by boats more than 600 feet from the shore. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the piece of dock shown in RG's picture belonged to them!

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06-03-2006, 06:10 PM	#2
Sparrow Hawk Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So if the permitting process isn't that difficult, my hypothesis about negligent dock owners is probably accurate. I know that the majority of owners do a good job of keeping their structures maintained, but even if only 20% of owners are negligent, there can be a very big problem such as the one that exists today. Based upon this, I think that requiring annual inspections would be a good idea.

06-04-2006, 04:28 PM	#6
Gavia immer Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 193 Thanks: 21 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	When would "annual" inspections be carried out? In Summer, when it's too early? Or at Ice-out, when it's too late?