Advice Wanted - Sell the Lakefront House or Keep it in the Family?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by longislander

Putting emotion aside, if the deed is in the parents name, inheritance may not be the main issue when selling the real estate.

Selling the property as a married couple will avoid some taxes. If single and have lived in a house for two of the previous five years, you owe no taxes if you make $250,000 or less in profit. For married couples filing jointly, if both of you have lived in the house for two of the previous five years, then the limit is $500,000 in profit; note profit, not sell price.


Gift tax (while living): If the parents sell the property, they, presently, can each give $15,000 annually ($30,000). Amount will probably, periodically, go up as it has been doing. The gift tax is not considered income, to the recipient. No tax to the parents for that amount.

I do not believe NH has an inheritance tax.

Estate tax may not be a factor. An estate tax is a tax on the right to transfer property when you die. The IRS exempts estates of less than $11.4 million from the tax in 2019 and $11.58 million in 2020, so few people actually end up paying it. Plus, that exemption is per person, so a married couple could double it.

A trust could be set up to avoid probate for the disposition of the asset.

If the house is "willed" to all three, especially with a trust, joint ownership of the house may be an option. Any future disposition of the house would be up to the three siblings, presuming they are still all living. Maybe the siblings can accommodate a downsizing, in conjunction with the trust.

These are just some issues that quickly come to mind, and the suggestions to seek professional advice are good suggestions.

Pretty sure that if you leave the place to your kids, then they will pay no tax on the gain that occurred during your lifetime--all the assets get marked up on your death, tax-free (except if there is an estate tax).

[JEEPONLY]

This is a more than useful thread.

Your original post, clearly/concisely/personally expressed, has struck an obvious chord for many of us.

I, too, am now experiencing similar circumstances. It is a mentally draining process and a familially destructive pill.

As each scenario presents its own problems there is, of course, no one size fits all solution. The thoughts/information being discussed here are immensely interesting and thought provoking.

Geez!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Pretty sure that if you leave the place to your kids, then they will pay no tax on the gain that occurred during your lifetime--all the assets get marked up on your death, tax-free (except if there is an estate tax).

Our accountant told us this exact thing yesterday. We sold the parent homestead in March after my dad passed in February, so the "gain" will be calculated in that time, not from when they bought.

That being said, if someone were to have inherited property a couple years ago, there would still be a ton of gains?

Finally, the number we heard in terms of estate tax was $1M. Anything over begins to be taxed.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Mr. V]

It would probably be helpful to provide the name of an experienced attorney who has substantial experience setting up trusts to keep lakefront property in the family.

[mneck1814]

I guess our family is in the minority for making joint ownership work. Our camp was originally our family homestead, built in 1814, and has been passed down through 7 generations and used only seasonally since 1971. My mom and her siblings are the first generation to own the properties as a group and since they took over in 1997, things have run fairly smoothly.

I think there are several contributing reasons why things have worked. The first being they all genuinely care about the house and its place in our family history for the last 2 centuries.

Another being that before my grandmother gave her kids the house she invested a significant amount of money into it (new siding, windows, roof, foundation work, etc) to make sure that it did not become an immediate burden to her children. Additionally, when my grandmother passed a few years later, some money was put aside to help with expenses.

When the siblings took over, an extensive list of rules was put in place to define everything from how you schedule your time at the lake to what is turned off or left on when you leave. This has been very helpful to reduce potential conflict points.

I think the most difficult decision was how to fund operations. The siblings worked through many different scenarios, and ultimately decided that they would set a budget for the upcoming year and everyone would be assessed to same dues, regardless of their usage. They also decided that renting it out would not be an option to raise funds.

I think the rule that creates the most tension is that the "cousins generation" (spanning in age from 31-53) is not allowed to occupy the camp overnight without an owner present. 20 years ago this was rooted more in nobody wanting their children/nieces/nephews having huge parties at the lake, these days it has more to do with the owners being retired and each wanting as much time as they can have at the lake and don't want to be competing for scheduling with the next generation. For our branch, this isn't an issue as we enjoy being their with my parents for our vacation weeks and weekends - we are also close with our Aunts and Uncles and get invitations to join them regularly. My feeling is they pay the bills they should get first dibs for use.

One sibling (my mom) is the manager and collects all of the dues, pays the bills, schedules and coordinates maintenance, and keeps the master calendar.

I do think there will be some issues when it comes to deciding who it gets left to in the next generation. But, not everyone has an interest in the house/lake or the means to support it. Thankfully I have never heard anyone, in either generation, talk about camp as a financial asset, in fact, one sibling who didn't use the property signed off and gave his siblings his portion.

There have certainly been squabbles and bumps along the way, but, so far they have been able to work it out.

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by mneck1814

I guess our family is in the minority for making joint ownership work. Our camp was originally our family homestead, built in 1814, and has been passed down through 7 generations and used only seasonally since 1971. My mom and her siblings are the first generation to own the properties as a group and since they took over in 1997, things have run fairly smoothly.

I think there are several contributing reasons why things have worked. The first being they all genuinely care about the house and its place in our family history for the last 2 centuries.

Another being that before my grandmother gave her kids the house she invested a significant amount of money into it (new siding, windows, roof, foundation work, etc) to make sure that it did not become an immediate burden to her children. Additionally, when my grandmother passed a few years later, some money was put aside to help with expenses.

When the siblings took over, an extensive list of rules was put in place to define everything from how you schedule your time at the lake to what is turned off or left on when you leave. This has been very helpful to reduce potential conflict points.

I think the most difficult decision was how to fund operations. The siblings worked through many different scenarios, and ultimately decided that they would set a budget for the upcoming year and everyone would be assessed to same dues, regardless of their usage. They also decided that renting it out would not be an option to raise funds.

I think the rule that creates the most tension is that the "cousins generation" (spanning in age from 31-53) is not allowed to occupy the camp overnight without an owner present. 20 years ago this was rooted more in nobody wanting their children/nieces/nephews having huge parties at the lake, these days it has more to do with the owners being retired and each wanting as much time as they can have at the lake and don't want to be competing for scheduling with the next generation. For our branch, this isn't an issue as we enjoy being their with my parents for our vacation weeks and weekends - we are also close with our Aunts and Uncles and get invitations to join them regularly. My feeling is they pay the bills they should get first dibs for use.

One sibling (my mom) is the manager and collects all of the dues, pays the bills, schedules and coordinates maintenance, and keeps the master calendar.

I do think there will be some issues when it comes to deciding who it gets left to in the next generation. But, not everyone has an interest in the house/lake or the means to support it. Thankfully I have never heard anyone, in either generation, talk about camp as a financial asset, in fact, one sibling who didn't use the property signed off and gave his siblings his portion.

There have certainly been squabbles and bumps along the way, but, so far they have been able to work it out.

You are clearly blessed with a wonderful family and the fact that this has extended through so many generations for over two hundred years is hard to comprehend. Great story.

[September]

I'm one of three siblings who inherited family camp after parents passed. It's been 11 years and we have shared it quite amicably. Two of us use it all summer and one might spend a weekend now and then, so we split the taxes, insurance and any MAJOR repairs (new roof, new septic) 3 ways. The day-to-day stuff are shared by the two of us who do use it. And while this isn't in anything written/legal, our parents asked us before they died to plan for an eventuality of one or two wanting to sell and one or two wanting to keep. They had us promise (verbally) that there would be two appraisals completed, and averaged to one price. The the buyer(s) would be able to buy out the seller(s) at half of that price. So it depends on your relationship with your brothers, I guess. We are very fortunate to have the property still in the family; none of us would ever be able to afford to buy. I'd keep it.

[Grant]

Our family had the same place for nearly 70 years in Tuftonboro, and we were forced to sell when one of the second-gen owners demanded to be bought out. At the time (2012), I had 3 kids in college, and my brother is a school teacher. So coughing up half the price of a place with 200 feet of shoreline, a boathouse, and 3+ acres was out of the question.

So it sold.

I could see this coming, and although it didn't lessen the pain, it helped me put it in perspective. My four kids, who, like me, grew up there and always considered it a constant, were devastated. Personally, I still grieve the loss. And I know it was a contributing factor in my dad's demise. He'd been there all his life. It was central to his being.

Fast-forward, and after a few years of renting here and there, camping, and learning how very different life on the Lake can be without owned waterfront, or a boat, we've found a wonderful spot that we rent for 2-3 weeks between July and September. The pros: we don't pay the taxes, don't need to do the maintenance, and don't lie awake in January wondering if that big old oak tree is going to smash the main beam of the house during an ice storm. The cons: no guaranteed home base. The loss of the family gathering spot. Sunsets on the dock. Scheduling the annual "opening up" long weekend in early May, and the closing in the fall. The tenuous nature of renting...not knowing if the new place you've grown to love will be sold, developed, etc. The heartache of knowing that my kids' kids will not know the same privilege (that I think we often took for granted).

One other "pro" -- and a big one, which was not foreseen: Proceeds from the sale enabled my mother to spend her final few years in the continuing care/assisted living facility that she *wanted* to be in. It was very nice and afforded a quality of life that just wouldn't have been possible without those funds.

So...personal experience says keep it all costs. The practical side says you never know what the future holds, and sometime those tough choices just can't be avoided.

But we're still here, and always will be!!

Good luck.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Grant

Our family had the same place for nearly 70 years in Tuftonboro, and we were forced to sell when one of the second-gen owners demanded to be bought out. At the time (2012), I had 3 kids in college, and my brother is a school teacher. So coughing up half the price of a place with 200 feet of shoreline, a boathouse, and 3+ acres was out of the question.

So it sold.

I could see this coming, and although it didn't lessen the pain, it helped me put it in perspective. My four kids, who, like me, grew up there and always considered it a constant, were devastated. Personally, I still grieve the loss. And I know it was a contributing factor in my dad's demise. He'd been there all his life. It was central to his being.


Fast-forward, and after a few years of renting here and there, camping, and learning how very different life on the Lake can be without owned waterfront, or a boat, we've found a wonderful spot that we rent for 2-3 weeks between July and September. The pros: we don't pay the taxes, don't need to do the maintenance, and don't lie awake in January wondering if that big old oak tree is going to smash the main beam of the house during an ice storm. The cons: no guaranteed home base. The loss of the family gathering spot. Sunsets on the dock. Scheduling the annual "opening up" long weekend in early May, and the closing in the fall. The tenuous nature of renting...not knowing if the new place you've grown to love will be sold, developed, etc. The heartache of knowing that my kids' kids will not know the same privilege (that I think we often took for granted).

One other "pro" -- and a big one, which was not foreseen: Proceeds from the sale enabled my mother to spend her final few years in the continuing care/assisted living facility that she *wanted* to be in. It was very nice and afforded a quality of life that just wouldn't have been possible without those funds.

So...personal experience says keep it all costs. The practical side says you never know what the future holds, and sometime those tough choices just can't be avoided.

But we're still here, and always will be!!

Good luck.

Grant, that is a very moving post. You have painted both sides of the canvas , and presented pros and cons of the issue in a compelling way. As the “seniors” in this dilemma, we are hoping our two heirs will be fair when decision time comes for keeping the place here on the lake or selling it. We would love to see the memories live on for generations, as so many here on the forum have described.

[Sammy]

Speaking from experience, don't ever sell.
You'll regret it for the rest of your life...

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Grant, that is a very moving post. You have painted both sides of the canvas , and presented pros and cons of the issue in a compelling way. As the “seniors” in this dilemma, we are hoping our two heirs will be fair when decision time comes for keeping the place here on the lake or selling it. We would love to see the memories live on for generations, as so many here on the forum have described.

The failure in most of these posts is looking at only the next generation. The successful pass downs have dealt with giving it to grand children and a generation after that. The stories related to parents and the kids are stories of people who waited too long to make plans.

Oldsters who want to do something for their kids are reacting to old age. Oldsters who want to do something for grandchildren and those unborn, are planning.

As noted earlier, it took us 30-40 years to get the plan (financially) in place. It isn't just sitting down with a lawyer and signing the papers.

[mswlogo]

I’m definitely in the regret we sold camp. And rebuying hoping we’ll heal.

But a couple things that confuse me are. Are we emotionally attached to the property / lake / location or the memories themselves?

I feel like we are acknowledging and reviewing the memories when we sold it. Memories we can relive.

We get choked up when we sold our 20 year old rusted out Jeep and replacing it with a shiny new one. My daughter grew up having that Jeep and we went hiking with it and it got us to the lake and back reliably year after year. Clearly the new Jeep will be better, safer etc. than the old one. But we are still sad.

Should we have kept the old one forever? Isn’t it the same thing?

[8gv]

To everything a season.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

But a couple things that confuse me are. Are we emotionally attached to the property / lake / location or the memories themselves?

I feel like we are acknowledging and reviewing the memories when we sold it. Memories we can relive.

When I jump into the water at my current place, I relive the memories of other lakes and waterfronts from my childhood. So as long as you love your Squam house, I think it will remind you of your last house.

[jbolty]

My only comparison would be when my parents sold my childhood home. Of course I had moved out long ago and had my own house but it really hit hard, for about a month. Then it was all new again helping my parents move into a new house and it no longer mattered much. It was just a place. I drive by once in a while but friends told me the inside was all remodeled and I have never had any desire to go inside again.

But, having said all that the financial consideration of being able to buy back in at the lake would be my main reason for keeping it if you can swing it. Which is a point already made above.

[Biggd]

I'm back in the same house I grew up in 66 years ago in Ma. I have fond memories of growing up in this house but those will always be with me. The area has changed and I'm done with the house. I want to move on but my wife has trouble letting go even though she didn't grow up here.
She just has trouble with change in general where I just feel every new home is a chance to start fresh even now at 66.
I embrace change where my wife dreads it. So moving is an emotional process for her.
I'm on my 3rd lake house on 3 different lakes and although I have fond memories of the first two I love the one I have now.
Everyone is different so you have to take that into consideration when there are multiple siblings involved.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I'm back in the same house I grew up in 66 years ago in Ma. I have fond memories of growing up in this house but those will always be with me. The area has changed and I'm done with the house. I want to move on but my wife has trouble letting go even though she didn't grow up here.
She just has trouble with change in general where I just feel every new home is a chance to start fresh even now at 66.
I embrace change where my wife dreads it. So moving is an emotional process for her.
I'm on my 3rd lake house on 3 different lakes and although I have fond memories of the first two I love the one I have now.
Everyone is different so you have to take that into consideration when there are multiple siblings involved.

I think one of the hardest parts of a home change (vacation or primary) is letting go of old friends and making new friends, especially as you get older. It takes some work.
And with COVID it can slow that process down.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I think one of the hardest parts of a home change (vacation or primary) is letting go of old friends and making new friends, especially as you get older. It takes some work.
And with COVID it can slow that process down.

Just think of it as adding more friends. You're not that far away from your old friends that you can't get together.

[map]

This was published in NH magazine back in January. We moved to N.H. from NY in February. Brings a tear to my eye when I read it.

https://www.nhmagazine.com/home-no-more/

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Our accountant told us this exact thing yesterday. We sold the parent homestead in March after my dad passed in February, so the "gain" will be calculated in that time, not from when they bought.

That being said, if someone were to have inherited property a couple years ago, there would still be a ton of gains?

Finally, the number we heard in terms of estate tax was $1M. Anything over begins to be taxed.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

Joey may want to double check my answers here:

The house should be valued at time of death, so gains the past two years would be taxed. But I would guess there is a fair bit of judgement involved about when the gains occurred, so you can probably argue the lion's share occurred earlier.

Some states have inheritance taxes (I don't know which ones, but I don't think the list includes Mass), but a married couple can transfer $23MM or so to their kids, tax free from the Feds.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Joey may want to double check my answers here:

The house should be valued at time of death, so gains the past two years would be taxed. But I would guess there is a fair bit of judgement involved about when the gains occurred, so you can probably argue the lion's share occurred earlier.

Some states have inheritance taxes (I don't know which ones, but I don't think the list includes Mass), but a married couple can transfer $23MM or so to their kids, tax free from the Feds.

From mass.gov......

If you're responsible for the estate of someone who died, you may need to file an estate tax return. If the estate is worth less than $1,000,000, you don't need to file a return or pay an estate tax. Massachusetts estate tax returns are required if the gross estate, plus adjusted taxable gifts, computed using the Internal Revenue Code in effect on December 31, 2000, exceeds $1,000,000.

[tis]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

From mass.gov......

If you're responsible for the estate of someone who died, you may need to file an estate tax return. If the estate is worth less than $1,000,000, you don't need to file a return or pay an estate tax. Massachusetts estate tax returns are required if the gross estate, plus adjusted taxable gifts, computed using the Internal Revenue Code in effect on December 31, 2000, exceeds $1,000,000.

Sad that if you live in Mass. you have to pay an estate tax on property in NH. Because their is no estate tax (state) in NH if it is passed on to children. If it is passed on to others NH does have an estate tax.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by tis

Sad that if you live in Mass. you have to pay an estate tax on property in NH. Because their is no estate tax (state) in NH if it is passed on to children. If it is passed on to others NH does have an estate tax.

I don't believe NH has an inheritance tax however I do believe that in the case of ownership change even within the same family it may be subject to the NH real-estate transfer tax unless there is some way to skirt that. Can you add an additional owner on the fly at any time and not trigger this?

Mass doesn't distinguish if assets of the "estate" are within the borders on MA or not. My guess is if you are a resident it doesn't matter. They have no problem assessing income tax on income not earned in MA so why would and inheritance be looked at any different?

[tis]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

I don't believe NH has an inheritance tax however I do believe that in the case of ownership change even within the same family it may be subject to the NH real-estate transfer tax unless there is some way to skirt that. Can you add an additional owner on the fly at any time and not trigger this?

Mass doesn't distinguish if assets of the "estate" are within the borders on MA or not. My guess is if you are a resident it doesn't matter. They have no problem assessing income tax on income not earned in MA so why would and inheritance be looked at any different?

NH doesn't have an inheritance tax IF you leave it to your children. If you leave it to other relatives or friends, it is taxed. I don't believe there is a real estate transfer tax for children either.

[tummyman]

Please check the laws...my reading is that NH does not have an estate or inheritance tax now. But one can aways be introduced as it is up to the legislature. If you are a MA resident, they tax ALL your assets regardless of state, except they do give you a dollar credit for any estate taxes you pay to another state. So being a resident of MA would certainly bring any NH property into the estate tax calculation, including any other assets in NH or elsewhere. Makes little sense to be a MA resident.... MA is one of the few states with an estate tax now. Please note..this reply is not tax or legal advice. Seek qualified professionals to guide you.

[loonguy]

Anyone residing in a high tax state, but having a second residence in NH, should consider making NH their principal residence when their circumstances permit the transition. In our case, the state tax savings by transitioning our principal residence to NH after I retired more than offset the carrying costs of our NH home. We kept our other state residence as a vacation home for Winter and family visits with our kids and grandchildren who still live there. To make it work from a tax perspective, we spend more time in NH than in our other state and use healthcare and other professionals mostly located in NH, which are among the factors analyzed by the tax authorities in our other state. Of course, you should check the tax laws of your own state to determine what you need to do for a successful transition. To bring this back on topic, the potential tax savings from a transition to NH residency at some point might facilitate one or more in the next generation to take over ownership of our NH lake home, which we love and hope will be available to future generations.

[BroadHopper]

Property been in the family since 1892. Prime view of the Broads. Welch, Long, Sandy, Cow and Diamond Island. The Ossipees and Mt Washington. I can see sunny side of WV glistening with snow late season.

Countless memorable family vacations/reunions and weekends made it difficult to comprehend. 'On Golden Pond' style cottages are becoming non existance. Daily sight of the Mt Washington was our way of keeping time. Being on the Southern end of the lake, the huge trees kept the sun from roasting the cottage.

It was tough decision to sell. Situated on a fairly steep slope, Dad had a difficult time climbing stairs. Because of 'view tax' regulation, property tax nearly six-folded.

With 3 kids heading off to college, I couldn't afford to take over so we sold it in 1998. The money was used to buy a condo on Winnisquam, less maintenance, flat landscape, great view so my dad can enjoy his last days.

We didn't regret the move, but we miss the spot! Current owner built a Macmansion and completely ruin a beautiful campy atmosphere.

Still have the Winnisquam property and enjoying the peace and quiet the Winnipesaukee now lacks. It's all about timing, moving forward. You will miss but won't regret.

[BroadHopper]

Property been in the family since 1892. Prime view of the Broads. Welch, Long, Sandy, Cow and Diamond Island. The Ossipees and Mt Washington. I can see sunny side of WV glistening with snow late season.

Countless memorable family vacations/reunions and weekends made it difficult to comprehend. 'On Golden Pond' style cottages are becoming non existance. Daily sight of the Mt Washington was our way of keeping time. Being on the Southern end of the lake, the huge trees kept the sun from roasting the cottage.

It was tough decision to sell. Situated on a fairly steep slope, Dad had a difficult time climbing stairs. Because of 'view tax' regulation, property tax nearly six-folded.

With 3 kids heading off to college, I couldn't afford to take over so we sold it in 1998. The money was used to buy a condo on Winnisquam, less maintenance, flat landscape, great view so my dad can enjoy his last days.

We didn't regret the move, but we miss the spot! Current owner built a Macmansion and completely ruin a beautiful campy atmosphere.

Still have the Winnisquam property and enjoying the peace and quiet the Winnipesaukee now lacks. It's all about timing, moving forward. You will miss but won't regret.

Put the property in a trust fund. Transfer within the trust fund. When you die the trust fund 'transfers' to the trustees avoiding all tax liens.

[rick35]

If you are considering a transfer find a lawyer who specializes in this. Gifting is complex and could have future ramifications. A life estate could mean financial surprises years from now if your parents go into long term care and you suddenly need to pay for it because of a parent's ownership interest.

[tis]

It seems the NH inheritance tax for other than children was repealed. I guess I had forgotten that.

[Pineedles]

Same date as Broadhopper, 1892, but luckily we still occupy our Center Harbor bay lake cottage. As we are several generations from our founder we of course have increased the number of owners. However, my parents’ generation made the excellent decision to establish a trust and lockin the number of voting shares. This has allowed us to make decisions on expenditures for upgrades and repairs without having to deal with a myriad of opinions. Memories can be too fleeting so we have documented in diaries, photo albums, and genealogical charts each generations fondest times, greatest challenges, and even our slack time sitting on the front porch watching sunsets.

Hope this helps in your decision.