Can't decide on property, we want our cake and eat it too

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

The new property on Squam isn't likely to happen.

We just got the septic site assessment and it was a pretty harsh report I didn't expect.

The lot was small (1/3 of acre) but narrow long dimension being further away from the lake. With leach field at the furthest distance away (lot is 209 feet deep).

Septic was 3 Bedroom (450 gal/day) and "newish" installed 2002 or something under current "State Approved" guidelines, but house was on lake water at that time. So that was all good. They installed a brand new well within the last year or two. So I thought state approved, way back from water and brand new well, all good.

However, they put the well within the 75 foot radius of the leaching field, almost the whole leaching field is inside the 75 foot well radius (starting at 50 ft).

The site assessment down rated the septic to a 1-Bedroom. From 450 gallon/day down to 125 gallon/day (so as not to contaminate the well).

We wanted the option of possibly rebuilding. And it would have probably been 1.5 story (currently 1 story) 3 Bedroom (same as now) all within the same existing foot print. Which is 1416 sq feet, which would be very spacious by moving two bedrooms up.

There are tons of rules of where the well, septic tank, house, lake and leaching field can be. There was room to keep leaching field outside the 75ft but that would place it closer to the Septic Tank and house. The 75ft radius also encroaches on both neighbors land as well by quite a lot (50 ft on one, also small lots). I think the Septic Tank needs to be some higher grade in order for well to be closer to it. Still puzzles me why they put the well where they did (there might have been not better place than where they did).

They could have also sleeved the well to increase the effective distance of the well from the leach field. But they didn't. That can get very expensive though and that sleeve would have to be really deep I think (~60 ft I think).

Functionally I know it's probably fine. But getting approvals / waivers is a bit of a crap shoot. And if we ever needed to sell (for what ever reason) before any potential new work that *might* get past all this, it could severely limit resale.

Are we being stupid or smart walking away? We were paying over asking.

For the record, we've been through this Septic sh$t before. Our last home we got because the previous buyers backed out due to non state approved septic. The house only 7 years old, including septic when we bought it. But it was classified as 2 bedroom septic and not "State Approved". So if it failed you'd have to find another way, lot was narrow along the lake. The Well, House, Septic and Leech were all on close quarters. When we went to sell we had a buyer at near asking price all lined up. We got the site assessment and it labeled it as "2-Bedroom seasonal". Buyers ran so fast the door didn't hit them on the way out. Next buyers were fine with it, but also a little bit lower selling price. I think this is all partly why I trapped myself into confirming we HAD to sell it.

Yuck! Sorry to read that on multiple levels. I hope you find a great place soon.

We experienced exactly the same thing when we almost bought a place on Squam. Four bedrooms, including a guest cottage that was charming but falling down slowly, and a recent second floor addition to the main house. On inspection we discovered the lot dimensions were impossible for anything more than 2.5 bedrooms, and a clever ploy was the only thing that enabled them to add the second floor. So, just as in your case, a ticking time bomb of septic failure and/or responsibility, and also risk that rebuilding cottage would not be allowed.

Squam is a magnificent lake, but the price is often a fundamentally flawed house.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Yuck! Sorry to read that on multiple levels. I hope you find a great place soon.

We experienced exactly the same thing when we almost bought a place on Squam. Four bedrooms, including a guest cottage that was charming but falling down slowly, and a recent second floor addition to the main house. On inspection we discovered the lot dimensions were impossible for anything more than 2.5 bedrooms, and a clever ploy was the only thing that enabled them to add the second floor. So, just as in your case, a ticking time bomb of septic failure and/or responsibility, and also risk that rebuilding cottage would not be allowed.

Squam is a magnificent lake, but the price is often a fundamentally flawed house.

It turns out the new well was put in 100% conforming. They added a 40 foot sleeve which essentially reduces the required set back proportionally depending how deep the sleeve is. All town approved. I thought for sure the assessor didn’t know it was sleeved and would adjust the load capacity back up to the original septic design. They specifically call out the new well as the reason for reduced load capacity. But they would not adjust it. It’s just to much money to risk what some board will approve or not approve some day. Everything was done by the book. I feel bad for the seller. But there are enough uneducated buyers out there that it will probably sell for the same money quickly.

[ApS]

My lawyer/neighbor's new winterized three story place shares a septic system with a neighbor and had a shared dug well OK'd within 60 feet of the leachfield. Their "garage" became a huge bedroom within days of moving in.

What are you doing wrong?

[winterh]

I am a bit confused by this and have a situation that may be similar. A small (.40 acres) lot that currently gets water from lake. If I do a well it will have to be within 75 ft of my state approved 4 br septic. I was told it would not be an issue if they added a sleeve. Are you saying that although I may be able to put the well closer to the leach field than 75 ft I am in danger of losing my 4 br designation should I need to replace the septic?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by winterh

I am a bit confused by this and have a situation that may be similar. A small (.40 acres) lot that currently gets water from lake. If I do a well it will have to be within 75 ft of my state approved 4 br septic. I was told it would not be an issue if they added a sleeve. Are you saying that although I may be able to put the well closer to the leach field than 75 ft I am in danger of losing my 4 br designation should I need to replace the septic?

Please check what I write with a septic expert, this stuff is really arcane:

Your septic "is what it is"--if your lot is too small for a 4 BR septic, a diligent buyer will uncover your problem regardless of the system itself. This was the case for me--the system was sound, but the lot was too small for a 4 BR septic to be designated for 4 BR. The required lot size is subject to multiple constraints that are too complex for an amateur

So I would just go with the best septic and the best well that I could, without regard for designation.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Please check what I write with a septic expert, this stuff is really arcane:

Your septic "is what it is"--if your lot is too small for a 4 BR septic, a diligent buyer will uncover your problem regardless of the system itself. This was the case for me--the system was sound, but the lot was too small for a 4 BR septic to be designated for 4 BR. The required lot size is subject to multiple constraints that are too complex for an amateur

So I would just go with the best septic and the best well that I could, without regard for designation.

I have a 2br septic but I have 4br's in the house. It's only my wife and I unless we have family or friends up so the septic doesn't really get overly taxed. But when I go to sell it it has to be listed and valued as a 2 bedroom home, which I'm fine with.

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I have a 2br septic but I have 4br's in the house. It's only my wife and I unless we have family or friends up so the septic doesn't really get overly taxed. But when I go to sell it it has to be listed and valued as a 2 bedroom home, which I'm fine with.

About 7-8 years ago our septic crapped out (Ha Ha!)! During replacement (not cheap) we were told it was too small for the three bedroom house (35 years old- didn't someone mention somewhere about contractors cutting corners?). I don't expect we'll sell anytime soon, but I hear what you're saying.

OK- next size up!

Like others, it's just the two of us full-time. Reading other threads on this forum made us change from three year cleaning to five year cleaning.

I admit, waiting for Spring (the first five-year clean) started to make me a bit nervous.

Butt- All's well!

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by JEEPONLY

About 7-8 years ago our septic crapped out (Ha Ha!)! During replacement (not cheap) we were told it was too small for the three bedroom house (35 years old- didn't someone mention somewhere about contractors cutting corners?). I don't expect we'll sell anytime soon, but I hear what you're saying.

OK- next size up!

Like others, it's just the two of us full-time. Reading other threads on this forum made us change from three year cleaning to five year cleaning.

I admit, waiting for Spring (the first five-year clean) started to make me a bit nervous.

Butt- All's well!

I just did mine a few years ago because I bought the place 6 years ago and there was no info on when it was last done. I bought it with no home inspection because I made an offer at a steep discount so I took the risk, a big risk.
The cleaning and inspection was fine but every 5 years is what I will do from here on in. My system is also 35 years old. If I ever decide to sell I will deal with the septic testing at that time but I've had no issues so far.
What I was told is it's not a bedroom unless it has a closet, not sure if that's legally true.
When I bought the place the room on the first floor was called an office because it had no closet. Then I finished the attic over the garage, into what I call a bunk room, which also has no closet.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Please check what I write with a septic expert, this stuff is really arcane:

Your septic "is what it is"--if your lot is too small for a 4 BR septic, a diligent buyer will uncover your problem regardless of the system itself. This was the case for me--the system was sound, but the lot was too small for a 4 BR septic to be designated for 4 BR. The required lot size is subject to multiple constraints that are too complex for an amateur

So I would just go with the best septic and the best well that I could, without regard for designation.

I totally agree with this.

Your lot size and how much it covered has a lot to do with the gallon / day rating. But the assessment specifically calls out the new well as being the reason why they rated it as 1/3 the capacity it was rated for.

I think what they might be doing is subtracting the area occupied by the well from the acreage to calculate how much septic flow the property can support. Regardless of where the well is legally located.

[mswlogo]

Independent of locations and set backs.

I’m curious how large a lot has to be to support:

A well (with entire 75ft radius) within property boundaries.
A home (say 40x40ft foot print)
A 2 car garage
A deck/screen porch
A driveway (maybe)
A walk way (maybe)
A 3-4 bedroom septic

I bet it comes to .75 acres or more.

Anything below 0.50 acres will probably need exceptions granted.

Even though not every square inch of a property can be used for some things I think it all still counts on total acreage. Maybe only any wetland might also be subtracted.

[winni83]

When we built on Winnipesaukee in 2012, we were able to construct a 2,600 finished square foot two story home with a full unfinished basement on a lot of .41 acres in size with a new well and a new three bedroom septic system with an attached 2 car garage, with decks, glassed and screen in porch, paved driveway and some walkways. Because we did not want a "Box", the footprint of house is irregular with lots of angles. No variances, exceptions or waivers, but our well 75 foot radius does extend onto the abutting property and we had to sign and have recorded an acknowledgement of that fact. Our engineer, architect, septic designer and well person were comfortable with the well radius issue. Given the topography of the abutting lot, it is unlikely in the extreme that the abutter could or would put a septic within that portion of the well radius extending onto that lot. I will say that it was a somewhat tight fit with the side setbacks, such that our engineer was out three times to measure and locate the foundation (excavation, footings and frost walls) so there were no surprises later on and then an as built. Well location came down to the practical issue of where the drilling rig could reasonably get to.

[tis]

You can build a pretty good sized house on a half acre. You might have to move the well etc. but it can be done as long as the soil supports a septic system. You need to get somebody who really knows what they are doing to figure it out for you. Unless it is grandfathered you have to be 50ft. from the lake and need to leave part of the land untouched. In any event it can be done, but bottom line is you need a good professional to get the most out of the lot.

At one point we bought a half acre lot that had an existing 4 bedroom septic. If we remodeled the (two) little houses we didn't need a new septic but we wanted to put a new septic in because it was old and by doing so we were reduced to 2. I'm not sure why but it wasn't a big deal to us. But I do know people who have 3 on a half acre.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by tis

You can build a pretty good sized house on a half acre. You might have to move the well etc. but it can be done as long as the soil supports a septic system. You need to get somebody who really knows what they are doing to figure it out for you. Unless it is grandfathered you have to be 50ft. from the lake and need to leave part of the land untouched. In any event it can be done, but bottom line is you need a good professional to get the most out of the lot.

At one point we bought a half acre lot that had an existing 4 bedroom septic. If we remodeled the (two) little houses we didn't need a new septic but we wanted to put a new septic in because it was old and by doing so we were reduced to 2. I'm not sure why but it wasn't a big deal to us. But I do know people who have 3 on a half acre.

The lot in question is only 0.36 Acres. And the abutters are similar size.

I’ve seen buyers run from septic assessment that wasn’t as bad.

[tis]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

The lot in question is only 0.36 Acres. And the abutters are similar size.

I’ve seen buyers run from septic assessment that wasn’t as bad.

You know, I agree with you. Why go through the hassle and fights with the town and state? Just find something with a bigger lot. It's not like you have to buy that one.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by tis

You know, I agree with you. Why go through the hassle and fights with the town and state? Just find something with a bigger lot. It's not like you have to buy that one.

Agreed. That's a lot of money to spend to jump through hoops AND take the risk.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[Susie Cougar]

Yes, it seems like a money pit. I would run very fast from this one, especially at $1.2 million for a seasonal camp.

Something that I also find very curious is that you mention there is not even one closet in the entire house . It almost seems to me like they did it on purpose because of the septic issue.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Susie Cougar

Yes, it seems like a money pit. I would run very fast from this one, especially at $1.2 million for a seasonal camp.

Something that I also find very curious is that you mention there is not even one closet in the entire house . It almost seems to me like they did it on purpose because of the septic issue.

Economics on Squam are skewed in a couple of ways. First, prices are dramatically higher than on Winni (I know, seems impossible). So I was not surprised at the $1.2MM camp. Second, even at those higher prices, there is almost never anything for sale. If you google squam real estate at any particular point in time, you're likely to see fewer than 5 for sale on the entire lake--one in the $1-2MM range, one in the $3-5MM range, one above that. So even if you can afford it, and you find a home in your price range, there is only one of them, so you are going to be living with a serious drawback or two.

When we were in the market 5-6 years ago, just for example--There was the house I described before with 2.5 beds of septic for $1.3MM, and there was a $1.7MM teardown on land that was good but not great.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Susie Cougar

Yes, it seems like a money pit. I would run very fast from this one, especially at $1.2 million for a seasonal camp.

Something that I also find very curious is that you mention there is not even one closet in the entire house . It almost seems to me like they did it on purpose because of the septic issue.

They did it to squeeze more space out for rental. Tenants tend not to use them. They rented it since they remodeled it. As far as anyone knew there was no septic issue until they hit the assessment back. And for some people there is no septic issue.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by winterh

I am a bit confused by this and have a situation that may be similar. A small (.40 acres) lot that currently gets water from lake. If I do a well it will have to be within 75 ft of my state approved 4 br septic. I was told it would not be an issue if they added a sleeve. Are you saying that although I may be able to put the well closer to the leach field than 75 ft I am in danger of losing my 4 br designation should I need to replace the septic?

That’s exactly what happened. This is a similar size lot.

The wording is, that if your septic fails, the state *might* only grant a 2 bedroom rated septic. But chances are if it had a reasonable 3-4 bedroom septic they would allow replacing it.

As mentioned above, lots of waivers are granted. Like for like systems granted etc. all the time.

It all gets fuzzy too that you might even be allowed to (re)build a 3 bedroom with a 2 bedroom septic. Or just build a 2 bedroom with a den that has closets and a bathroom. And never have an issue.

My biggest concern is resale. Because it has this ugly comment of only 125 gal/day limit which equates to a 1 bedroom.

It makes no sense to me why the septic was rated down to 125 because a of a properly installed (town approved and sleeved) well. Well company basically said “you should be good, we do things right”. So your drill guy will say you are fine.

We might be overreacting on these technical labels.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

It turns out the new well was put in 100% conforming. They added a 40 foot sleeve which essentially reduces the required set back proportionally depending how deep the sleeve is. All town approved. I thought for sure the assessor didn’t know it was sleeved and would adjust the load capacity back up to the original septic design. They specifically call out the new well as the reason for reduced load capacity. But they would not adjust it. It’s just to much money to risk what some board will approve or not approve some day. Everything was done by the book. I feel bad for the seller. But there are enough uneducated buyers out there that it will probably sell for the same money quickly.

I hope you find something but at this point in the summer I would be patient. Maybe things will slow down when the cold weather hits and you won't have to compete with the summer shoppers.