West Alton Sandbar - Marine Patrol Trouble

[jrc]

Re: checking registration numbers

Just guessing, but I think if you got a "please move" and no ticket on Saturday and come Sunday you're are back in the same spot, you'll be sorry.

Just like that warning the State Police gave me on Thursday on RT 93. Next time I'll be paying.

[John A. Birdsall]

I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there?

When I was a young man, many years ago, I had friends their their parents owned that beach, and have since sold peice's of it off. Recall that the state owns up to high water mark. My friends came from Reading Mass.

[Lakewinniboater]

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall

I'm not sure who owns that beach, there doesn't seem to be a house associated with it. What other property is bothered by the boats rafting there?

When I was a young man, many years ago, I had friends their their parents owned that beach, and have since sold peice's of it off. Recall that the state owns up to high water mark. My friends came from Reading Mass.

The owners of the Marina own the beach and land on BOTH sides of the channel and much of the Mauhaut Shores area.

[upthesaukee]

This area has been a no rafting zone since before my Dad passed away, and that was in 1988. I'm guessing that it would have been more in the early to mid 80's. When on vacation, we would go down to the "Sand Bar" and would have anywhere from 2 to as many as 8 or 10 boats rafted together. Everyone had kids or grandkids, no stereos blaring, and a respect for each others boats and the neighboring boats and landowners. When the no rafting came in, the marine patrol would come by on a regurlar basis, and were quite firm but fair, and tell you if it appeared the boats were too close. They didn't particularly care who was there first, just wanted to see the proper space between boats. Most boaters would be accommadating, a few gave out the lip service, and got repaid with a ticket.

We keep our boat at West Alton, and aside from an early in the day swim, or very late in the evening, we prefer to go out to deeper water and swim. A little more difficult with the grandkids, but we make do. Don't have to put up with someone trying to run over your anchor rope that way.

[jrc]

I don't think there is any question that there has been a no rafting zone there for many years and that the MP have the right and duty to enforce that.

My only question of the MP is priorities. Police are always balancing where to use their limited resources. Was this the best place to use five boats and ten officers on a busy weekend afternoon? There was almost zero chance of someone being injured due to rafting. Was that choice made because of a squeaky wheel land owner?

Most of my criticism and curiosity is about no rafting zones in general. What is there purpose, is there a safety rational or is just an annoyance factor? How is it decided where to put them? How do the extra rules get added? Can the zones be removed? Can the rules be changed? It's one thing to have a no rafting zone, it's another to use that law to invent a no anchoring zone.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

My concern is the inconsistent (seemingly arbitrary) enforcement of regulations. I've been going to Small's Cove for a long time. One week the MP will cruise through the sandbar (last year on a Jet Ski) and not do anything. The next week they bring in an armada. Sometimes I get the feeling that even they aren't sure what they're enforcing.

I think one of the MPs biggest issues is credibility. The inconsistencies don't just apply to Smalls Cove, but enforcement on the lake in general. It also doesn't seem that resources are being deployed in a way that maximizes safety on the lake. My HO, your's may vary.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by jrc

Most of my criticism and curiosity is about no rafting zones in general. What is there purpose, is there a safety rational or is just an annoyance factor? How is it decided where to put them? How do the extra rules get added? Can the zones be removed? Can the rules be changed? It's one thing to have a no rafting zone, it's another to use that law to invent a no anchoring zone.

I would bet that the purpose is just to avoid a disturbance of the peace and I'm certain there is a history of loud and obnoxious raft-ups that led to the rules.

While the ends are acceptable, the means kinda stink, in my opinion. NRZs "punish" everyone indiscriminately. To me, the ability for the MP to tell me that I cannot allow two boats to safely and quietly tie up to my boat in certain areas is preposterous. I doubt the NRZ rules would stand up in court if one were to push it. Maybe I should ask my Senator to sponsor a bill. Perehaps we could tackle the absurd "no overnight anchoring" rule as well...

My thoughts: If you plan to hang out at a NRZ sandbar, get there early, anchor legally, and take digital photos of the space around you. That way, if the MP shows up and hassles you for being to close to other boats, you can show them you were there first. May not work, but it's better than just getting angry about someone just trying to enforce the law.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by Dave R

{snip} I doubt the NRZ rules would stand up in court if one were to push it. Maybe I should ask my Senator to sponsor a bill. Perehaps we could tackle the absurd "no overnight anchoring" rule as well...

If you can regulate parking and public gatherings on land I can't see any legal reason you can't do the equivalent on the water. Like I've said on this topic before the existing NRZ rules try to balance the desires of the boating public and the shorefront owners. Neither comes out a clear winner IMO. I'd worry your Senator might follow prior thoughts re: making the entire lake a NRZ.

Originally Posted by Dave R

My thoughts: If you plan to hang out at a NRZ sandbar, get there early, anchor legally, and take digital photos of the space around you. That way, if the MP shows up and hassles you for being to close to other boats, you can show them you were there first. May not work, but it's better than just getting angry about someone just trying to enforce the law.

This is an interesting thought. If you're ticketed for being too closely spaced how does anyone know it was you that initiated the offending action ? It's one thing to be ticketed for anchoring too close to shore, that's entirely under your control, but if someone else encroaches on "your space" in an NRZ ?? I wonder what the court ruling would be if such a ticket were contested. Time to form that PAC (R.O.A.R.) I guess. Usually I think the MP just tells the boats to move rather than issue tickets in these cases.

[Alton Bay Resident]

Here's a thought… on any popular sandbar, establish mooring balls for the season. Properly spaced for between boats and from shore. If you don't get to the sandbar early enough, you have to wait till a 'spot' opens up. It's along the same lines as getting a public dock on the lake, limited number of spaces.

This e would avoid someone coming late and encroaching in your space. It would also take all the guesswork our for boaters and let everyone relax.

[SIKSUKR]

Great idea on the moorings.A friend was ticketed once in Braun for the exact same scenario after being there before others.I believe he wrote a letter and the ticket was dropped.I found a similar situation at the parking meters in front of my building.There were several motorcycles parked in one spot and in another a car was obviously parked in the spot first and then a motorcycle parked behind it.I asked the meterlady if she would ticket them and she said no because they could not prove who was there first.Sounds like the MP would have to have the same thought process and just have people move apart.

[Phantom]

If I'm not mistaken -- having mooring balls out is EXACTLY what they do at Lake George, NY. No Ball - No Anchoring!

[Jonas Pilot]

Good Idea on the mooring balls A Bay Res!

[Airwaves]

The down side to mooring balls that I can see are:

Who puts them out, takes them in and maintains them? $$$

What happens when someone ties up to the mooring ball in front of your cottage that you have a permit for and use for your own boat?

[jrc]

Although I love the idea of mooring balls, it will never happen. Airwaves is right, there is no financial reason for mooring balls at a sandbar. The towns build docks because it helps the local business.

[secondcurve]

I have a question for those on the board who want more marine patrol officers to "control" the go fast boaters, mooring balls to solve the rafting issues and more money spent to keep the lake water clean, and so forth. How are we to pay for these services?

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

This thread reminds me of a similar enforcement effort at Braun Bay during the 2000 season.

For those interested, here's a link to the thread starter and some interesting reading from the OLD forum archives:

MP Invades Braun Bay

At the time I had many of the same questions I see posted in the current thread. What does happen when I'm at anchor and someone makes a raft closer than 50 feet to my boat? We are both in violation.

As for mooring balls: Orange balls are supposed to be in the NRZ in Braun Bay to mark the 75 foot distance from shore you can anchor - not to use as a mooring but to mark the distance. One year they had signs out at Braun Bay with the NRZ rules. I believe the signs were placed 75 feet from shore. The rules for the WAM area sandbar are a little different.

Somewhere around here I have a few pictures of a Marine Patrol boat on routine patrol passing close to NRZ violators in Wentworth Cove - not interested in NRZ enforcement.

[Mee-n-Mac]

I also think public mooring balls in certain NRZs is an interesting idea. The question raised is cost and perhaps they could be combo mooring balls and parking (?mooring?) meters. I half jest but then again maybe there's an easy way to do this. If the balls can be made to pay for themselves (or nearly so) then the only question is whether people who use them would be willing to pay the price. So what's it cost to install and maintain a mooring field ? Instead of heavy duty mooring balls, could you have anchoring balls ? These wouldn't hold a boat in place but rather just indicate where a boat can anchor ... perhaps less $$ to install & maintain. With the success of such things at the Alton Sand Bar and Braun Bay then we could be well on the way to ring the Witches (and perhaps other places), converting navigation hazards in boating hot spots. Pepper could open a floating stand and then ... darn dropped my Prozac ... will get right back to you with more on this ...

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

I also think public mooring balls in certain NRZs is an interesting idea. The question raised is cost and perhaps they could be combo mooring balls and parking (?mooring?) meters. I half jest but then again maybe there's an easy way to do this. If the balls can be made to pay for themselves (or nearly so) then the only question is whether people who use them would be willing to pay the price. So what's it cost to install and maintain a mooring field ? Instead of heavy duty mooring balls, could you have anchoring balls ? These wouldn't hold a boat in place but rather just indicate where a boat can anchor ... perhaps less $$ to install & maintain. With the success of such things at the Alton Sand Bar and Braun Bay then we could be well on the way to ring the Witches (and perhaps other places), converting navigation hazards in boating hot spots. Pepper could open a floating stand and then ... darn dropped my Prozac ... will get right back to you with more on this ...

That's not such a crazy idea M&M.When I sailed around Tortola in the BVI,A lot of the mooring balls were fee based.You would hook on to a ball and later on someone would come by to collect the $20 fee.I'm not sure anyone would pay this kind of fee on Winni for a few hours usage.Granted,these moorings were really used for overnite use.The next morning it was off to the next island and harbor to find a mooring ball and a fun night ashore.

[Lakewinniboater]

I have to admit.... this year, since we have bought our home and have a large beach.... I am not at any of the sandbars or coves very often.

HOWEVER, I really beieve that the use of resources on that type of issue is REDICULOUS!!

Go after the Captain Boneheads that almost run us over daily!

I was near the Varney's at about 7pm yesterday (A MONDAY NIGHT!), with no one around we were going fairly slow and captain bonehead in his overfilled bow rider came up quickly on my right. He LITERALLY almost ran up over us. HELLO, I had the right of way!!!

Put the MP (who i do have respect for.... but not spending so many resources in the sandbars) on point to find the idiots that break the 150 and right of way issues!!!!

[Rayhunt]

Its getting rediculous .. A MP boat comes over to the area were we are anchored and fires up his loud hailer which feeds back and splits everyones ears , to tell us that the island were anchored off is a loon sancuary and not to go ashore.. Well first of all the opposite side of this island is a LS not where we were , nor are there any loons or nest in this area..And noone was going ashore... But hey thanks for making all our day that much less enjoyable.. You mean to tell me there was nothing going on in any of the busy places like the wiers etc he had to venture out to this remote area to stir the pot ???

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

That's not such a crazy idea M&M.When I sailed around Tortola in the BVI,A lot of the mooring balls were fee based.You would hook on to a ball and later on someone would come by to collect the $20 fee.I'm not sure anyone would pay this kind of fee on Winni for a few hours usage.Granted,these moorings were really used for overnite use.The next morning it was off to the next island and harbor to find a mooring ball and a fun night ashore.

And that's another way to go about it. Hire a college kid to be the "mooring master" and collect fees from all the boats that use the mooring balls. Give him/her a free mooring and float whilst on the job and you might get find some applicants Course this further drives up the cost of running the feild but maybe it's cheaper than meters (probably not but certainly more practical). In any case secondcurve, jrc and Airwaves make a good point in that unless there's a real problem that this solves or somehow makes $$ for the State, there won't be any interest. Certainly the boaters who presently use the sand bar or Braun Bay gain little and lose something. That's why I suggested other, presently unused, places become, as APS put it, DRZ's with mooring balls. Moving some people away from the home owners so both parties can, well, party to their own music (so to speak) while bringing in some $$ to the State (or at least allowing some Rep to drone about summer job creation) and increasing the boating things-to-do, places-to-go quotient of the lake (meet ya at DRZ2 for rock snorkeling) and then further add in that in that the MP won't have to play "Nanny" anymore .... the idea might have enough appeal to catch on. Well, maybe* Certainly there have got to be other places than just the Witches which could make viable mooring sites. Not every raft-up needs to be at a beach or be able to touch bottom with your toes.

So again what does it cost to "run" a mooring field and then what $$/hr would have to be charged to break even ? Would anyone pay this amount ?? Let's take a cut at it. I figure there's maybe 15 useable weekends in a season, add in a few holidays and you get 33 days where you'd charge for the mooring. Charge between the hours of 7am and 7pm and you've got 396 hrs/ball/season. Charge, I dunno, $2/hr and figure an 65% occupancy rate and you've got ~$500/ball/season. Amortize the initial cost of the mooring over ? 10 ? years and figure an average feild size of ? 20 ? balls (to spread the mooring master's pay across) and could it come close to working financially ? Would people pay more $/hr ?? Y'all tell me.


*pigs do fly, really, I've seen them. Just nowhere near as good as Warthogs or Falcons.

[Joanna16]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

This thread reminds me of a similar enforcement effort at Braun Bay during the 2000 season.

.

MP was in Braun Bay Saturday too - 'round 4:15 3 boats.
Are there real violations and water safety issues to be addressed?

[WINNOCTURN]

If this is all for Revenue Enhancement they are really missing the “boat”. All the need to do is permanently station these three boats at the new “NO WAKE ZONE” between Governors Island and Eagle Island. Yah, it has made a big difference so far this season, NOT!


WINNOCTURN