Housing Market (& Mea Culpa)

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Could also be that the buyers don't want to take possession of it as a rental with tenants living there. I know I wouldn't.

It's been contingent for 2 months now. Recently it's only been weekenders so I'm not sure that's it but I don't know. I would have thought it would have passed by now but something is holding it up.
It's the only rental in my neighborhood so I'm hoping it goes through.

[gillygirl]

Originally Posted by Biggd

It's been contingent for 2 months now. Recently it's only been weekenders so I'm not sure that's it but I don't know. I would have thought it would have passed by now but something is holding it up.
It's the only rental in my neighborhood so I'm hoping it goes through.

It’s difficult to know what’s going on without firsthand knowledge. I’ve seen contingent on properties which eventually closed within the reasonable time period of sales. Two months isn’t unreasonable. My property was under agreement for six weeks. I didn’t get final papers to sign until two days before closing. While it seemed like an eternity for me, with the volume of real estate changing hands, it was reasonable.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Biggd

It's been contingent for 2 months now. Recently it's only been weekenders so I'm not sure that's it but I don't know. I would have thought it would have passed by now but something is holding it up.
It's the only rental in my neighborhood so I'm hoping it goes through.

So finally got notification that the house on my street just passed at $1,084300 a year after it was purchased for $720,000.
I know for a fact the the people that sold it made no improvements in the year that they owned it and it was rented pretty consistently on FRBO at $300 a night. Quite a profitable investment!
Of course I'm thrilled as it won't be a rental any longer.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Biggd

So finally got notification that the house on my street just passed at $1,084300 a year after it was purchased for $720,000.
I know for a fact the the people that sold it made no improvements in the year that they owned it and it was rented pretty consistently on FRBO at $300 a night. Quite a profitable investment!
Of course I'm thrilled as it won't be a rental any longer.

Puts those tax assessments in a certain perspective, doesn't it?

[8gv]

In FL they have a property tax mitigation program called "Save Our Homes".

If you own the property as your primary residence you can reduce the tax escalation to 2% a year.

The program allows continuance as the owner sells and buys another primary residence which has had its tax increases controlled in this manner.

If the property is sold to an owner who has not been eligible for the program continuance the taxes go to the current market level.

This helps people stay in their homes.

Here in NH, rising real estate values don't really help you until you sell.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Biggd

So finally got notification that the house on my street just passed at $1,084300 a year after it was purchased for $720,000.
I know for a fact the the people that sold it made no improvements in the year that they owned it and it was rented pretty consistently on FRBO at $300 a night. Quite a profitable investment!
Of course I'm thrilled as it won't be a rental any longer.

How do you know it won't be a rental anymore?
$300/night doesn't seem like much for a $1MM vacation property.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Speculating on Real Estate while the real estate market is rising (and very hot) can be a good thing.

But, alas, all good things do come to an end at some point. Think of all those poor folks who purchased Real Estate back in 2006 and 2007 before the bottom fell out.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Descant

How do you know it won't be a rental anymore?
$300/night doesn't seem like much for a $1MM vacation property.

I don't, but I find it hard to believe that they would pay that much and rent it out.
The people that owned it before were from NH. I saw a Tesla in the driveway yesterday with a Mass plate so I'm assuming that is the new owner that drove up to pass on the property but they are gone today. I guess I won't know for sure until I meet the new owners, hopefully soon.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I don't but I find it hard to believe that they would pay that much and rent it out.
The people that owned it before were from NH. I saw a Tesla in the driveway yesterday with a Mass plate so I'm assuming that is the new owner that drove up to pass on the property but they are gone today. I guess I won't know for sure until I meet the new owners, hopefully soon.

So, in a few months, Covid will taper off and the market bubble will burst. The new owners will go back to NJ or CT or where ever because it is too long a drive, and it will be rental again because previous tenants will keep calling to renew. Tough cycle to break. Good luck.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Descant

So, in a few months, Covid will taper off and the market bubble will burst. The new owners will go back to NJ or CT or where ever because it is too long a drive, and it will be rental again because previous tenants will keep calling to renew. Tough cycle to break. Good luck.

That’s not what’s going to happen.

COVID opened the eyes of employers and employees that they can be more productive working from home.

Lot’s of people are moving out of the city, for good.

COVID also put a damper on public transportation, for long after the worst of COVID is over. Another reason to bail commuting to the city and just going remote. It’s also gonna make traffic worse for the ones that drive into the city.

A lot of people on the edge of retirement, decided to retire early.

It may not be as crazy as it was but I suspect the bubble won’t pop.

The people buying these homes are not the ones that lost their jobs due to COVID either.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

That’s not what’s going to happen.

COVID opened the eyes of employers and employees that they can be more productive working from home.

Lot’s of people are moving out of the city, for good.

COVID also put a damper on public transportation, for long after the worst of COVID is over. Another reason to bail commuting to the city and just going remote. It’s also gonna make traffic worse for the ones that drive into the city.

A lot of people on the edge of retirement, decided to retire early.

It may not be as crazy as it was but I suspect the bubble won’t pop.

The people buying these homes are not the ones that lost their jobs due to COVID either.

I agree that this trend will continue for long into the future. The office building market will have a glut of vacancies because, as stated above, employers found out that working from home, works well. And, there are no snow days!

People working from home are enjoying sleeping a little later and finding that they are putting substantially fewer miles on their cars and saving on gasoline.

This is a national movement of people getting away from the big cities and that lifestyle. It is estimated that 970 people a day are permanently moving to Florida. The Florida furniture stores and building material stores are having difficulty keeping enough inventory to meet the demand.

Real estate in the Lake's Region continues to be hot. A property listed for $550,000 two weeks ago in Gunstock Acres had 10 offers and sold for over $700,000 in a matter of days.

It’s not surprising that the most significant growth areas are in the South and Southeast, especially Houston and Dallas in Texas, Florida and the Carolinas.

[Biggd]

If there is a bubble to burst there will be a lot of people on the losing end.
You just never know what the next recession will bring. There will be one, we just don't know when. I'm just glad I'm retired.
Most of these young workers have not experienced a recession in their working lifetime yet. My son is 33 and it's been nothing but up since he graduated from College. How they handle a down turn will be a new experience.

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

ThatÂ’s not whatÂ’s going to happen.

COVID opened the eyes of employers and employees that they can be more productive working from home.

LotÂ’s of people are moving out of the city, for good.

COVID also put a damper on public transportation, for long after the worst of COVID is over. Another reason to bail commuting to the city and just going remote. ItÂ’s also gonna make traffic worse for the ones that drive into the city.

A lot of people on the edge of retirement, decided to retire early.

It may not be as crazy as it was but I suspect the bubble wonÂ’t pop.

The people buying these homes are not the ones that lost their jobs due to COVID either.

No one really knows what's going to happen. I work for a large commercial real estate firm and a lot of time and effort is spent trying to project near and long-term trends. What folks in my business generally agree on now is that the pandemic has accelerated previously obscure trends and we are, in 2021, where many thought we could be five or ten years from now - more willing to embrace technology to give us new workplace options. Where companies were experimenting gingerly with remote working prior to COVID, they have in one year been literally forced to implement it.

Keep in mind that up until COVID, there was a long trend toward moving back into cities. An aging population in the suburbs didn't need the big home, maintenance was tiresome, commutes required to do anything were inconvenient, socially distanced neighborhoods were unattractive, there was a lack of entertainment and, in some parts of the country, less proximity to quality healthcare. A lot of this hinged on baby boomers entering their retirement years and young workers looking for opportunity and adventure. These dynamics haven't really changed in my mind and I give it a fair chance that the tide will turn post-COVID and people will once again gravitate toward cities for what they provide - social interaction and amenities that aren't readily available in the suburbs. Also, these cities will be plotting strategies to attract people back - chiefly I believe by becoming more environmentally conscious and by focusing on personal wellbeing. Humans are social creatures and I believe it's easier for cities to meet that need by fine tuning what they currently have versus suburbs having to reinvent themselves from scratch. I just don't see people in mass permanently leaving the excitement of the city for the calm of a suburb.

Perhaps we'll settle into some sort of hybrid end-state - one where we separate 'city' from 'workplace' and understand that they aren't necessarily inextricably linked. I believe many people will return to cities because there are countless reasons to enjoy living in one. And, yes, in those cities people will work - but they will do so from their apartment or condo or the park or corner café - and then occasionally head into a company's strategically consolidated office space for meetings and employee collaboration (which most agree is important for a healthy organization). Of course, these people will still need the periodic escape to the lake for a change of pace and perhaps in the new normal, they'll stay for a good deal longer than they would have in the past.

[GsChinadoll]

Originally Posted by Winilyme

No one really knows what's going to happen. I work for a large commercial real estate firm and a lot of time and effort is spent trying to project near and long-term trends. What folks in my business generally agree on now is that the pandemic has accelerated previously obscure trends and we are, in 2021, where many thought we could be five or ten years from now - more willing to embrace technology to give us new workplace options. Where companies were experimenting gingerly with remote working prior to COVID, they have in one year been literally forced to implement it.

Keep in mind that up until COVID, there was a long trend toward moving back into cities. An aging population in the suburbs didn't need the big home, maintenance was tiresome, commutes required to do anything were inconvenient, socially distanced neighborhoods were unattractive, there was a lack of entertainment and, in some parts of the country, less proximity to quality healthcare. A lot of this hinged on baby boomers entering their retirement years and young workers looking for opportunity and adventure. These dynamics haven't really changed in my mind and I give it a fair chance that the tide will turn post-COVID and people will once again gravitate toward cities for what they provide - social interaction and amenities that aren't readily available in the suburbs. Also, these cities will be plotting strategies to attract people back - chiefly I believe by becoming more environmentally conscious and by focusing on personal wellbeing. Humans are social creatures and I believe it's easier for cities to meet that need by fine tuning what they currently have versus suburbs having to reinvent themselves from scratch. I just don't see people in mass permanently leaving the excitement of the city for the calm of a suburb.

Perhaps we'll settle into some sort of hybrid end-state - one where we separate 'city' from 'workplace' and understand that they aren't necessarily inextricably linked. I believe many people will return to cities because there are countless reasons to enjoy living in one. And, yes, in those cities people will work - but they will do so from their apartment or condo or the park or corner café - and then occasionally head into a company's strategically consolidated office space for meetings and employee collaboration (which most agree is important for a healthy organization). Of course, these people will still need the periodic escape to the lake for a change of pace and perhaps in the new normal, they'll stay for a good deal longer than they would have in the past.

I think that most of these people will come to the decision that they would rather work from home but closer to the city amenities. Driving 45 minutes to shop or go to the hospital or whatever gets old quickly for most young people. few choices of t\restaurants open off-season, no ballparks close by, whatever. At least, I hope so, we wish to sell our place in southern NH and buy near the lake but since nothing is available I'm hoping these people go back to where they came from and put their properties up for sale soon!

[Biggd]

Rents are going down in the city. We could have a case where these people live in the lakes region and rent a place in the city for the few days a week that they have to go in. It may even be a case where they coop the appartment with other workers and alternate their days in the city.

Originally Posted by GsChinadoll

I think that most of these people will come to the decision that they would rather work from home but closer to the city amenities. Driving 45 minutes to shop or go to the hospital or whatever gets old quickly for most young people. few choices of t\restaurants open off-season, no ballparks close by, whatever. At least, I hope so, we wish to sell our place in southern NH and buy near the lake but since nothing is available I'm hoping these people go back to where they came from and put their properties up for sale soon!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[BillJohn]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I don't, but I find it hard to believe that they would pay that much and rent it out.
The people that owned it before were from NH. I saw a Tesla in the driveway yesterday with a Mass plate so I'm assuming that is the new owner that drove up to pass on the property but they are gone today. I guess I won't know for sure until I meet the new owners, hopefully soon.

I know some people who bought a house for 1.5 million and then put in another 500K who then advertise the property for rent and that it sleeps 20! Why someone would do that is a mystery to me.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by BillJohn

I know some people who bought a house for 1.5 million and then put in another 500K who then advertise the property for rent and that it sleeps 20! Why someone would do that is a mystery to me.

There are a lot of group investors that do this through an LLC. They buy a waterfront property or multiple properties, rent them out, take a few weeks out of the year for themselves, and hope that it increases in value. At the same time they all get the right off's as a partner of the LLC investments.
I hope that's not the case with the house in my neighborhood.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by BillJohn

I know some people who bought a house for 1.5 million and then put in another 500K who then advertise the property for rent and that it sleeps 20! Why someone would do that is a mystery to me.

It's all about numbers and returns. If the numbers work then some consider it a worthwhile investment.

Personally? I don't think I would sleep very well at night.....

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

It's all about numbers and returns. If the numbers work then some consider it a worthwhile investment.

Personally? I don't think I would sleep very well at night.....

It's your return on equity and potentially a major tax write off in depreciation against your earned-income while also getting to use the property (there are uhhhh, IRS restrictions).

I've owned rental property in San Francisco for 40 years. Never a problem so severe I could not handle it while 3,200 miles away. The key is great tenants (proper screening) and a good building in a great location. And a reliable stable of contacts to do repairs, is a must.

Establishing a WOW! factor upon first sight creates demand and competition when showing the units. I've worked with a lot of landlords who owned Sect. 8, etc. in marginal neighborhoods. The rent is guaranteed but the wear-and-tear is more severe because Sect. 8 people are home more often, even during non-COVID times. More tenants per/unit. Usually less educated. However, choosing and screening wisely, it's a great deal.

Short-term rental is handled differently. The ability-to-pay is not the issue since most rent is paid ahead of time. The problem becomes spotting potential behavior problems...Loud partying, unwarranted guests, pets, etc.

[TiltonBB]

GarySF. Exactly that.

I have had rentals since 1978. In many situations I did not do enough investigation of prospective tenants, and I have the court cases to prove it. I took a chance on people and sometimes (too often) I was wrong.

One other thing about section 8 is the repairs. People who are getting something for nothing seem to have very little respect for the property. One tenant locked herself out, so she poked holes in every window screen to see if any of the windows were unlocked. When the state does the annual inspection guess who has to make all the repairs to the tenant damage?

My experience has been that 90% of the section 8 tenants are scamming the system. They often work for cash so that it doesn't show up on the books and take advantage of every free government program there is.

As Howie Carr says: "The safety net has become a hammock." I couldn't agree more.

[ApS]

One issue I would never want is "sub-letting"!

[garysanfran]

For many years I owned a credit reporting agency that tracked the performance of residential and commercial renters. My screening process was beyond what most landlords could do on their own... Way beyond a credit report and a few reference checks.

One important item that does not show on a credit report, is a prior eviction, or more important...An eviction in process. This action, in New Hampshire, is called a "Landlord-Tenant Writ".

Unless there is a money judgement. Evictions aren't on your Experian, Equifax or Transunion credit reports.

Evictions are an issue of possession of property, not money. Even if it's money owed. So, because credit reports deal with monetary issues, a possession of property won't show.

After the writ-of-possession, the landlord can get a money judgement and if successful, that will show on a credit report a few months after the fact...But not as an eviction. You may not know what this public record is for.

So what we did...

The filing of an eviction complaint, is a public record. We hired a network of data-gatherers that went into every court house throughout California (and other states) from every day, to once every two weeks to gather Unlawful Detainer (eviction) complaints at the point of filing. So, we knew of an eviction "in process" before the tenant started looking for another apartment, while using his Uncle Freddy as a phony landlord reference.

Plus, the same laws that allowed banks to report your handling of debt to credit reporting agencies, our clients could report objective rental issues into our database...Good and bad....Bounced checks, property damage...Great tenant, had unauthorized pets, etc.

In San Francisco, for instance, there are approx. 12,000 Unlawful Detainer complaints filed every year. While these people are being evicted, they're looking for new places to live using fake landlord references... and we knew!

The courts had to provide us access to their files and a place to work.

A local newspaper ran a business article on us. A local TV station then ran a news story that was seen by the director of one of the local public housing authorities who then hired us to exchange data between housing agencies...So we became the screening agency for HUD, privately owned public housing (Sec. 8), and publicly owned public housing...San Francisco, Oakland, Contra Costa, Los Angeles Housing Authorities as well as thousands of conventional landlords and large property management companies.

So, there isn't a scam I have not seen or heard of. I could write a book.

I sold my company in 1998. Similar companies are still out there, including mine with an office in Tewksbury, MA.

The problem today, is that almost all of these companies purchase stale eviction data. It was expensive to gather "live" evictions. So today they purchase packaged "eviction data". However, it's packaged after judgement, so an eviction-in-process is more difficult to uncover.

I also used questions to uncover fraud during reference checking...For example...

The applicant says he's paying $1,200/month rent. I call his landlord "reference" and ask if the landlord can verify that the applicant was paying $1,000/month rent and paid on time? If the answer is yes?

"Oh...I'm so sorry. I made a mistake. The applicant says $1,200/month. Why did you confirm $1,000?" Listen to them squirm!

And if the applicant is using a phony Social Security number? Most people don't know they're geographically coded. If you come from a New England state, it begins with a 0...New Hampshire, Maine a double 00. Chicago a 3. California mostly a 5. And if you're from NY, 050-134.

So your applicant says he just arrived from Korea and gives you a SS# beginning with 580, you ask him when he was in Puerto Rico?

It was fun...

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Very interesting post, garysanfran! Most of that information is new to me. Thanks.

[Descant]

I've done evictions in small claims court where I also got a judgement for money. Unfortunately, there really wasn't much success in collecting on that. If they didn't have the money to pay the rent, they certainly didn't have the money to pay a new landlord and me. I've only had a couple of section 8 people. They worked out very well. In each case, NHHFA only paid part of the rent, tenant paid some amount that increased over time until they got off the program. No damage other than normal wear and tear. Just the way the program is supposed to work.

[Biggd]

A buddy of mine had professional rent scammers in his building. They wouldn't move out and wouldn't pay rent during Covid even though they were both working. He actually paid them a months rent to move out.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Biggd

A buddy of mine had professional rent scammers in his building. They wouldn't move out and wouldn't pay rent during Covid even though they were both working. He actually paid them a months rent to move out.

That is the problem. People who were still working took advantage!!

[gwhite13]

A late good friend of mine had a ingenious method to remove squatters back in the 70's. His buddy was a very large scary fella, he would bust in the door around dinner time, announce that he was moving in on thursday and for them to be gone on wednesday. Worked every time, only cost a door jamb. Probably too dangerous to try in these days.

[garysanfran]

Not a scam I've not heard of. I've had to step through yellow tape and over a dead body to get into one appointment at a public housing project in Oakland. Gangs shot a security guard through the walls of his office with automatic weapons about 20 mins. before I arrived.

One 92 yr. old woman told me that she and her, now deceased, husband bought a good 2-unit owner-occupied building in a good neighborhood 60 yrs. before the neighborhood changed and she got a bad actor who didn't pay his rent for almost a year. His electricity got shut-off for non-payment so, without her knowing, he cut a hole through their common wall and he tapped into the back of one of her outlets. So she paid for his electricity unkonwingly. And he tapped into her cable TV, so she paid for the cable also. I told her what to do and she got him out in two months.

I busted one of the largest Nigerian fraud rings on the west coast. A guy posed as a landlord wanting to screen people through my company. I had suspicions and found him in my database as a past tenant who had an eviction filing that had been dismissed. I knew where he was and started my own investigation. I past the results on to The Secret Service and they nailed his ass. They had been looking for him for a long time, and couldn't find him. Got him and 15 family members.

I came across a Craigslist rental fraud in the Lakes Region last year when I needed to rent a place for a month while my place on the lake was rented out. They said COVID prevented them from showing it in person. I could drive by and look at photos. I Googled-Earthed the address and saw a sign with the phone # of the apartment community, I called the manager and she told me it was a fraud.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by tis

That is the problem. People who were still working took advantage!!

Our tax dollars hard at work!

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Biggd

A buddy of mine had professional rent scammers in his building. They wouldn't move out and wouldn't pay rent during Covid even though they were both working. He actually paid them a months rent to move out.

A friend bought a nice single family home but there were renters (well, tenants who didn't pay) still living there. He stopped by the house and told them he had bought the house and they needed to leave. They laughed at him so the next day he hired a lawyer.

The lawyer told him to offer them $5,000 to leave. He said "You didn't understand me. I now own the house" The lawyer said yes, I understand you but if you want to move into the house in the near future go pay the "tenant" (It usually takes about 4 months to get rid of deadbeat tenants and you never collect the back rent.)

He did, and they left.

[tis]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

A friend bought a nice single family home but there were renters (well, tenants who didn't pay) still living there. He stopped by the house and told them he had bought the house and they needed to leave. They laughed at him so the next day he hired a lawyer.

The lawyer told him to offer them $5,000 to leave. He said "You didn't understand me. I now own the house" The lawyer said yes, I understand you but if you want to move into the house in the near future go pay the "tenant" (It usually takes about 4 months to get rid of deadbeat tenants and you never collect the back rent.)

He did, and they left.

Pretty sad isn't it how twisted this country has become.

[MAXUM]

Yes it is considering all we hear on the news these days is due to job losses, the pandemic and so on that renters should be able to live rent free. There is little if any concern about the owner, whether that be a business, an investment trust or an individual. Why are they any different than the renters? Why should they get screwed? The general consensus seems to be that they can "afford" it, when in reality many owners, or investors are no different than the renters, just average every day folks trying to carve out a living.

[tis]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Yes it is considering all we hear on the news these days is due to job losses, the pandemic and so on that renters should be able to live rent free. There is little if any concern about the owner, whether that be a business, an investment trust or an individual. Why are they any different than the renters? Why should they get screwed? The general consensus seems to be that they can "afford" it, when in reality many owners, or investors are no different than the renters, just average every day folks trying to carve out a living.

Exactly! Most people that rent apartments do it for a reason not for fun.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

A friend bought a nice single family home but there were renters (well, tenants who didn't pay) still living there. He stopped by the house and told them he had bought the house and they needed to leave. They laughed at him so the next day he hired a lawyer.

The lawyer told him to offer them $5,000 to leave. He said "You didn't understand me. I now own the house" The lawyer said yes, I understand you but if you want to move into the house in the near future go pay the "tenant" (It usually takes about 4 months to get rid of deadbeat tenants and you never collect the back rent.)

He did, and they left.

That's a good lawyer! Most would take as much money from you first and after they sucked you dry they would tell you this.
I bought a Mobil franchise back in the 90's and when I brought the 2" thick lease to my lawyer he laughed.
He said, "you're going to pay me a lot of money to read this and then I'm going to tell you not to sign it". "These leases are written by teams of lawyers so the company never loses".
It's all about cost analysis verses risk. So I bit the bullet and signed it.

[Dad207]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

A friend bought a nice single family home but there were renters (well, tenants who didn't pay) still living there. He stopped by the house and told them he had bought the house and they needed to leave. They laughed at him so the next day he hired a lawyer.

The lawyer told him to offer them $5,000 to leave. He said "You didn't understand me. I now own the house" The lawyer said yes, I understand you but if you want to move into the house in the near future go pay the "tenant" (It usually takes about 4 months to get rid of deadbeat tenants and you never collect the back rent.)

He did, and they left.

I am a business and real estate lawyer and I have given similar advice before. Evictions are messy and expensive (though less than $5,000), a related issue is that a bad tenant will trash your place before they leave. You may have a security deposit, but that won't cover the damage and going after a dead-beat tenant for cash (if they had money, they'd pay the rent) is useless. Better to pay them to go away and not trash the place. Most folks pay if they can, a few, are just plain deadbeats. Pay the tenant to go away, often cheaper than the lawyer.

[garysanfran]

Although fiction, the movie "Pacific Heights" is a real example of dealing with a bad tenant.

When screening an applicant, you are trying to determine two goals. Establishing their ability to pay the rent, and, much more difficult, trying to spot behavioral problems.

Financial capability is easily achieved by checking employment, pay stubs, bank records, credit reports, etc. It's usually a well papered trail you follow to a conclusion.

Behavior is much more difficult. You have to interpolate data, i.e. - read between the lines. A current landlord could lie to get rid of a problem. During an interview, almost anyone can behave well for a few minutes.