And just like that BOOM

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Virtually every responsible scientist and every government in the world has agreed that we must electrify.

While electrification might be the end game... until we get clean energy generation AND more importantly, clean battery/storage technology it is all for naught. Those lithium batteries in your EV are beyond hazmat! At best they can only recover 50% of the lithium when they are recycled... this will lead to a huge toxic waste management issue as EV's become more popular.

No matter what people say, there is no such thing as "green" energy. They all have serious downsides.... and a huge potential for unintended consequences.

As XCR pointed out, hydrogen is promising, but not there yet. IMHO, SMR's are coming, but they aren't quite there yet either. Will they get here soon enough to help? Doubtful. If we don't get India, China & Pakistan and most 3rd world countries on board... nothing we do is going to matter.

No matter what side of any issue you are on, there is an upside, a downside and worse yet... unintended consequences.

Woodsy

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

While electrification might be the end game... until we get clean energy generation AND more importantly, clean battery/storage technology it is all for naught. Those lithium batteries in your EV are beyond hazmat! At best they can only recover 50% of the lithium when they are recycled... this will lead to a huge toxic waste management issue as EV's become more popular.

No matter what people say, there is no such thing as "green" energy. They all have serious downsides.... and a huge potential for unintended consequences.

As XCR pointed out, hydrogen is promising, but not there yet. IMHO, SMR's are coming, but they aren't quite there yet either. Will they get here soon enough to help? Doubtful. If we don't get India, China & Pakistan and most 3rd world countries on board... nothing we do is going to matter.

No matter what side of any issue you are on, there is an upside, a downside and worse yet... unintended consequences.

Woodsy

Better stated than from me!

Thanks.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

While electrification might be the end game... until we get clean energy generation AND more importantly, clean battery/storage technology it is all for naught. Those lithium batteries in your EV are beyond hazmat! At best they can only recover 50% of the lithium when they are recycled... this will lead to a huge toxic waste management issue as EV's become more popular.

No matter what people say, there is no such thing as "green" energy. They all have serious downsides.... and a huge potential for unintended consequences.

As XCR pointed out, hydrogen is promising, but not there yet. IMHO, SMR's are coming, but they aren't quite there yet either. Will they get here soon enough to help? Doubtful. If we don't get India, China & Pakistan and most 3rd world countries on board... nothing we do is going to matter.

No matter what side of any issue you are on, there is an upside, a downside and worse yet... unintended consequences.

Woodsy

Well, at least we agree that electrification is the end game.

In the meantime, there's a group of people doing everything they can to get us to electrification as fast as possible. And also a group of people dragging their heels with all sorts of lame excuses to stick with oil while the planet is warming.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Well, at least we agree that electrification is the end game. In the meantime, there's a group of people doing everything they can to get us to electrification as fast as possible. And also a group of people dragging their heels with all sorts of lame excuses to stick with oil while the planet is warming.

While Woodsy and XCR-700 do well to remind us of the environmental problems with current alternative energy sources, we still all need to get on board with the effort to support these other sources. The sooner we do so, the sooner scientists will have the support they need to improve existing energy technologies and discover new ones. The current imperfect state of our knowledge and technology is not a reason to condemn or avoid electrification; it's a reason to support it so we can move forward. This should have been done decades ago.

[John Mercier]

Sail... That isn't really the problem...
Electricity has been generated from fossil fuels since the beginning.
We move from one source to another based largely on cost.

Natural gas is cheaper than coal (pipelines are more efficient than trains proven by Rockefeller)... and NG has a better thermal signature.

The reason that we have moved from gasoline in small tools is due to the fact that the first battery tools were corded - there were no gasoline versions of them.
Once on a platform, it just makes since to use that platform more and more. Add to that the gasoline doesn't have the greatest shelf life with ethanol, and anything that sits for long periods becomes even more convenient to use the battery platform that you have already invested in.

[ishoot308]

The best thing about this thread is the return of Major...

Welcome back!

Dan

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

While Woodsy and XCR-700 do well to remind us of the environmental problems with current alternative energy sources, we still all need to get on board with the effort to support these other sources. The sooner we do so, the sooner scientists will have the support they need to improve existing energy technologies and discover new ones. The current imperfect state of our knowledge and technology is not a reason to condemn or avoid electrification; it's a reason to support it so we can move forward. This should have been done decades ago.

At this very moment in time, electrification as its happening in the US is not better/greener than a middle east petro solution, its just a different set of problems.

Now make no mistake about it, land based crude oil extraction is cleaner and safer than ocean based drilling, and middle east crude oil based in sand is easier than pulling oil out from many parts of the US, but ALL lithium battery technology and solar panels are BAD business!

If you want a clean power example, you can look to Iceland who is using geothermal to create hydrogen, this is about as green as you will get today!

New nuclear power plants could be a very big step forward soon, but they will be VERY expensive and should not be entrusted to business that run them for profit, because just as soon as you start talking dollars and profit, corners will be cut. They also should not be build any where near populated areas, not because of fear of failure, but because of the threat of being targets for madmen like we have seen with Putin and Ukraine.

Sorry, Green is complicated,,,

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Well, at least we agree that electrification is the end game.

In the meantime, there's a group of people doing everything they can to get us to electrification as fast as possible. And also a group of people dragging their heels with all sorts of lame excuses to stick with oil while the planet is warming.

Warming is good, this is a lush hot planet where we grow things to eat and the plants make oxygen to allow is to breath and live.

An ice age by comparison would be a certain death for most of us.

The arrogance of anyone to think we can fine tune the planets temperature is either hype of ignorance, but I can assure you its nonsense.

Your single biggest contribution to planetary problems, population growth. So unless you are going to stop human births, then its better to embrace warmer than colder, or everyone will starve or freeze. But again, any belief we can perfectly tune the planet to some magic number some kook scientist tells you is nonsense.

In my lifetime I have seen such rubbish promoted and dispelled time and time again. Pesticides are good, they allow us to grow more plants/food, agent orange is safe to spray on the troops, DDT is ok to fog kids with, Thalidomide is 100% safe for pregnant woman, MTBE is much better than tetraethyl lead and is harmless, GMOs are the future, lithium batteries are green.

You can accomplish more greening of the planet by simply reducing your personal consumption and reusing your current products to their maximum possible life cycle. And the cost to you NOTHING.

Spend less time worrying about Mr. Kennedy and more time on reducing your personal usage of everything and you will accomplish far more.

Good Luck, ready set go!

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

While electrification might be the end game... until we get clean energy generation AND more importantly, clean battery/storage technology it is all for naught. Those lithium batteries in your EV are beyond hazmat! At best they can only recover 50% of the lithium when they are recycled... this will lead to a huge toxic waste management issue as EV's become more popular.

No matter what people say, there is no such thing as "green" energy. They all have serious downsides.... and a huge potential for unintended consequences.

As XCR pointed out, hydrogen is promising, but not there yet. IMHO, SMR's are coming, but they aren't quite there yet either. Will they get here soon enough to help? Doubtful. If we don't get India, China & Pakistan and most 3rd world countries on board... nothing we do is going to matter.

No matter what side of any issue you are on, there is an upside, a downside and worse yet... unintended consequences. Woodsy

Woodsy, I think this is well stated, but the question then becomes, if it appears we're doomed---because we can't develop green energy fast enough to save the planet---what should we do? I feel like "nothing we do is going to matter" is just too pessimistic. We can't just keep living the way we "want" to live, driving unnecessarily large gasoline vehicles and burning oil to heat unnecessarily large homes, etc. Every one of us can do something to mitigate the climate crisis. Studies of mass movements (e.g. Ghandi) have shown that in order to get a large movement going, you actually don't need to convince more than 50% of the population to get on board. It's more like 30%, which feels doable. Convincing 30% of citizens, lawmakers, corporations, etc. to take action on the climate crisis feels doable to me. I believe that everything we do matters, every small action. It all adds up.