luxury tax for out-of-staters

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Don't focus on the taxes, focus on the spending.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

So long as people look for "the rich", and not themselves, to pay the way then it's awfully hard to control the spending side of things.

Exactly, increased property values do not cause property taxes to go up (unless you have been under taxed due to faulty assessment) as a rule, there are always exceptions, but we should be able to agree on the basic premise. Taxes go up to cover increased spending. These politicians need to be held accountable for this, unfortunately most people don't pay attention and focus on the slick campaign ( "Together we can" comes to mind) and not the background and intentions of the candidate. This is why it is so important to pay attention and watch these guys.

Whether you have an $800,000 house or $800,000 stuffed in your mattress you are still at least $745,000 better off than half of the population in the US, way better off, in fact they would consider you filthy rich. That wealth needs to be managed or you will lose it. The more taxes you wish for and get, the quicker it will disappear unless you figure out how to keep it.

Maybe someone could give Ted Kennedy a call for information on how to avoid taxes on inheritances, he's done very well.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by ITD

Taxes go up to cover increased spending. These politicians need to be held accountable for this, unfortunately most people don't pay attention and focus on the slick campaign ( "Together we can" comes to mind) and not the background and intentions of the candidate. This is why it is so important to pay attention and watch these guys.

ITD I couldn't have said it better..... I have no issues when Taxes legitimatly having to go up. But the issue facing NH and many states is that Taxes are going up because of a shortage of funds, which is do to POOR MANAGEMENT of the current income of the states and towns. The government at any level is wasteful, and the time has come where people need to make the government officals responsible for there wastefulness.... But insted a vast majority of the public sits and watchs, and complains, insted of reacting....People need to question there elected officials, and when they are caught with there hands in the till so to speak FIRE THEM....not re-elect them.... There are many politicians out there that people complain about, but they never get removed from office, because the complainers never vote. And as long as old school politicians remain in office the new politicians will learn the old ways. Once the politicians find out that they have to prove themsleves and live up to there promises then things will change.

[Little Bear]

The problem is really not between residents and non-residents of the State, but rather the problem is between residents and non-residents of the Town. Non-residents of the Town have no voting rights and no say whatsoever on how their tax dollars are spent within that Town. To me, this is a major problem that should be causing an uprising. It would be interesting to compare the tax revenues from the non-residents versus the residents from any one of the towns surrounding Winnipesaukee.

[Paugus Bay Resident]

People need to question there elected officials, and when they are caught with there hands in the till so to speak FIRE THEM....not re-elect them

I think this was clearly demonstrated at the polls last month. Hopefully, the message will stick.

[boathousegirl]

As I've said before, my property taxes in Belmont on Winnisquam are almost $23,000 dollars a year. That's $442.00 a week. If they try to charge me a luxury tax I'm in big trouble. Rest assured I am not rich. I work very hard to be able to keep the home that has been my dream.

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Don't focus on the taxes, focus on the spending.

Something we all seem to agree on here. Part of the problem is that the spending is dependent on OPM so the incentive to look at this more closely isn't there as much as it should be.

Originally Posted by JDeere

Only in America can we complain that our “investment” has done well. There are plenty of options open to FL and your parenst from reverse mortgages, donating his/thier home to Massachusetts etc….. That will allow him to live out his days without having to worry about the bills.

JDeere, this is at the heart of my argument. It ISN'T an investment. It's a home. There's a BIG difference. I know it will never happen, but they'd gladly give up the "investment" gains in return for reducing their tax bill and knowing that their children and grandchildren could continue to enjoy a legacy that's helped keep the family very close. Reverse mortgages and the other avenues mentioned still result in the same end, the loss of the property.

I also fail to see how this becomes an out of state argument (other than for the folks who will take any opportunity to make it one) I'm talking about NH residents living in a NH home.

In the end the discussion isn't about tax bills. As has been mentioned, the tax bills will be there and will need to be paid. It is a discussion of how to more fairly allocate those taxes to those most able to pay.

Obviously I believe that those working are most able to pay, and those on fixed incomes are not. Not the "NH Way". But that would be my vote.

As for taxing non-residents more, didn't King George try that?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Merrymeeting

Something we all seem to agree on here. Part of the problem is that the spending is dependent on OPM so the incentive to look at this more closely isn't there as much as it should be.

I also fail to see how this becomes an out of state argument (other than for the folks who will take any opportunity to make it one) I'm talking about NH residents living in a NH home.

Merry Meeting This is an issue for everyone you are correct. I myself am trying not to make this a in state out of state argument....but there have been some point raised, such as I am an out of state property owner and therefore don't vote in NH. So it is hard for me to vote out bad politicians. But I can try and make sure the people I know, that feel the way I do get there buts to the polls. And I have met many people that feel like I do and are NH residents and they don't vote even with encouragement. My point is this in state and out of state land owner's are all this together.... Its time that the politicians are made accountable

[Woodsy]

Now for something REALLY unpopular!!

I think that some of you guys have it all wrong…

NH has one of the LOWEST tax burdens in the U.S.!! I am a NH resident and I fervently hope it stays that way.

Does NH have a funding problem with regards to education…YUP! Is a new tax the answer…NOPE! I agree with Siksukr, never in the history of the United States has new tax reduced an existing tax burden… NEVER EVER!

The solution as a few here have pointed out is watching the spending… For the most part I think the elected officials in NH do a pretty good job managing the money.

Let me preface the following paragraph. I am not picking on FLL at all. He put the numbers I used out there. I don’t know him and I hope it’s not taken personally as I am just using him as an example.

That being said, I really don’t have any sympathy for FLL or anyone else who is whining about their property tax bill. FLL stated his house was valued at $801,000 and his tax bill was approximately $10,000. Meredith’s 2006 tax rate is $10.74 per $1000. If you do the math $801 x 10.74 = $8602 or approximately 1.1% of the assesed value. Poor FLL… doesn’t want to pay an approximate 1.1% tax on his almost 1,000,000 home!! I am pretty sure state law in MA limits your taxes to 2.5% of the value, and most towns run right 2.5% and few have voted in overrides. This is in addition to the 5.3% income tax and 5% sales tax. Now you want to bring that madness to NH?? No thanks, no need to sell crazy here!! We have enough!

It is not NH's fault that your property values have skyrocketed. You have no one to blame but out of state residents such as yourselves who drove the value of property in NH thru the roof! It’s the simple laws of supply and demand. The demand far exceeded the supply so prices/property valuation went up. In Meredith, the tax rate per $1000 dropped almost $5 because of the revaluation. No doubt the drop in the tax rate benefited some while hurting others.

You can call it a home or an investment, in the end it all boils down to the fact that Real Estate is a taxable asset. An increase in the value of that asset results in an increase in taxes. It is not any different than a stock market portfolio or a bank account.

I do feel bad for families who feel like they are being forced out of their property because they can’t afford the taxes. However, nobody is forcing them to live there. There are plenty of options… They can sell the property, pocket a bunch of $$$ and live happily ever after, (albiet not in thier dream home) they can tell their kids to help out with the property tax and thus protect some of their inheritance, or they can take out a reverse mortgage.

Woodsy

[jetskier]

I think that the issue is that other states get more of their tax base based upon other tax mechanisms. New Hampshire is reliant upon property tax, but that does not mean that it should be disproportionately apportioned more so to nonresident owners. That is the basis of this thread. It is no longer clear what the property values are as the market has weakened to the point that valuations are questionable. If the state places more of the tax load on the out of staters, they will invariably lose as there is a definitive threshold of pain here. If the market is flooded with more homes and people don't come in to support the local economy, then the towns lose.

I do not agree with your math here...my house in MA is assessed much higher than my house in NH, yet my taxes to NH are much higher. The percentages don't hold up. In addition, most people I know do not consider their home a monitary investment IT IS A LIFESTYLE INVESTMENT. I love this...we hear about fire chiefs taking $167,000 in deferred vacation accrual and then talk about dispropotionate allocation of the tax burden. Let's hope more rationale heads prevail.

Jetskier

[rander7823]

Vote the people that are spending you into oblivion out of office and replace them with people who won't

OH I forgot you are one of those red states aren't you.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by jetskier

I do not agree with your math here...my house in MA is assessed much higher than my house in NH, yet my taxes to NH are much higher. The percentages don't hold up. In addition, most people I know do not consider their home a monitary investment IT IS A LIFESTYLE INVESTMENT. I love this...we hear about fire chiefs taking $167,000 in deferred vacation accrual and then talk about dispropotionate allocation of the tax burden. Let's hope more rationale heads prevail.

Jetskier

Jetskier... Property tax is the only tax we pay here. Now take your property tax on your house, then add in your income tax, and then add in the sales tax on everything you buy (except food) and you will see that the tax burden here in NH is very low, I think only Tennesee is lower.

It really doesn't matter how people percieve thier property, be it investment or lifestyle or home. All of the states in the Union view property as a taxable assest and tax property at varying rates. In NH we rely soley on property tax and want to keep it that way.

Woodsy

[Paugus Bay Resident]

New Hampshire has the 2nd lowest state tax burden, 7.3% of per-capita income. The lowest tax burden is Alaska (6.4%). This compares to the national average of 10.6%

Here's an interesting link http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/335.html

[fatlazyless]

We all know that the NH house, senate, governors council, governor, and both congressional seats are now all held by Democrats for the first time together since 1874. In the next election, it is very likely that Governor Jeanne Shaheen will be a very strong challenger for incumbent Senator John E Sununu.

Here's my question. Was the big New Hampshire Democratic win due mostly to a dislike for President Bush and the war in Iraq, or was it due to state wide unhappiness with increasing property taxes which are increasing faster than people's income?

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Here's my question. Was the big New Hampshire Democratic win due mostly to a dislike for President Bush and the war in Iraq, or was it due to state wide unhappiness with increasing property taxes which are increasing faster than people's income?

NH is no longer a republican state. Why? Gee I wonder where all of its new residents are coming from? That crowd will not be happy until we have an income, sales, and excise tax. I am sure there are other taxes that I a missing. I think that explains the vote better then anything else.

[TomC]

my heading got cut off. I was going to say "pay relatively high property tax as an out-of-stater?"

Originally Posted by JDeere

NH is no longer a republican state. Why? Gee I wonder where all of its new residents are coming from? ...

yep

get an in-state rate on fishing license? nope
get an in-state rate on ORV reg? nope
get an in-state rate on hunting license? nope
get a real say in budget decisions in town? nope
get an in-state rate on tuition in University system? nope
get a tax break for being a veteran? nope - have to be a resident

get hosed with an out-of-state luxury tax on property? "we're thinking about it"!

Many on the forum say: "Don't like it? Get lost or move here".... well, if the system incentivizes vacation property owners to eventually establish their residence in NH, and they do so, the votes (and political leanings) naturally come with them..

Throw the no income and no sales tax reality on top of it and that's the icing on the cake, practically making it a no-brainer to move to NH come retirement time...

[Felix]

New Hampshire may have high tax rates, but look what's happening on Cape Cod. The town of Barnstable now has two property taxes rates. One rate for registered voters and one for non-voters. Guiess whose rate is higher?

[Paugus Bay Resident]

It seems strange to compare NH's tax burden to income

It's per capita income. Last time I checked, many NH residents had income.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by TomC

get an in-state rate on fishing license? nope
get an in-state rate on ORV reg? nope
get an in-state rate on hunting license? nope
get a real say in budget decisions in town? nope
get an in-state rate on tuition in University system? nope
get a tax break for being a veteran? nope - have to be a resident

get hosed with an out-of-state luxury tax on property? "we're thinking about it"!

.

Please demonstrate how if I a New Hampshire resident bought a second home in Mass. or any other state that those issues would change. All this whining with no facts to show that your home state acts differently towards non-residents.

[TomC]

Originally Posted by JDeere

Please demonstrate how if I a New Hampshire resident bought a second home in Mass. or any other state that those issues would change. All this whining with no facts to show that your home state acts differently towards non-residents.

I'm not whining, and it does nothing to bolster your argument...except diminish its credibility.

second, who is claiming my (or anyone's) state acts differently..?

i was trying to get at two points in this thread: #1, what do people think of looking to add a higher property tax (luxury) to non-residents and extending the two-tiered treatment based on residency? #2, point out the irony of NH residents creating a tax and fee system that encourages out-of-staters to declare their residency in NH as soon as they can - and then complain about the politics they bring when they do!

if my home state designed a system like this, i wouldn't wonder why a political shift was brought about by wave of people moving in - it would be a clear case of cause and effect.

You can't say "oh my god, we're turning into Massachusetts" when the NH system is two-tiered and encourages residency (from a tax and fee standpoint), or "if you don't like it sell" and then lament the type of people and politics that do the buying..

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by TomC

second, who is claiming my (or anyone's) state acts differently..?

i was trying to get at two points in this thread: #1, what do people think of looking to add a higher property tax (luxury) to non-residents and extending the two-tiered treatment based on residency? #2, point out the irony of NH residents creating a tax and fee system that encourages out-of-staters to declare their residency in NH as soon as they can - and then complain about the politics they bring when they do!

if my home state designed a system like this, i wouldn't wonder why a political shift was brought about by wave of people moving in - it would be a clear case of cause and effect.

..

Ok, I surrender because I have no idea what you are talking about. You run off a list of things that you feel are unfair and then say that is not my point?

The likelihood of the luxury tax going anywhere is slim at best.

Many states tax non-residents at a higher property tax rate then it does its residents. I don’t agree with that and would not make such a place my second home. At this time NH is not one of them.

Moving to NH because of its tax status only works if you live and work in NH.

If you are retired it may or may not be the best state to retire in because of the dividend and interest tax as well as the high property tax.

NH is my home and I am proud of it. To listen to some folks whine about how unfair it is when they do not get to vote in 2 states is absurd. Understand the frustration but if you like NH then come up and enjoy and stop complaining.

[fatlazyless]

I'm no expert on New Hampshire constitutional law, for sure, but a state-wide tax like the state school property tax has to be equally applied as required by the NH constitution. A sales or income tax that is set at one rate, like 3% or 4%, is equal by definition. A two tier property tax system on a state wide level would not pass the rules of the NH constitution.

In order to make the state school property tax equal, a few requirements have been set up by the state as a results of several law suits that went up to the NH Supreme Court. These include costly town-by-town reevaluations every five years, oversight by the state, and having assessed values fall between 90 & 100% of actual value. Recently, Sanborton was cited for not meeting these requirements and will probably have to redo their expensive assessment.

If people are not happy with their taxes, they can vote for someone else in the next election. It's safe to say that the NH Republicans would prefer to cut off their right hand before they would agree to a broad based tax, and everyone knows this.

[Silver Duck]

It might not be wise to give the MA legilature the idea of setting up a two-tiered tax system based on the premise that "there's a whole batch of people out there that we can gouge just because there's nothing they can do about it".

It's bad enough that citizens of both states get stuck with the full tax burden appropriate to receiving the full range of services, without getting very much in return. Starting a "range war" by gouging each other's citizens extra because there's not much they can do about it would not be a good thing!

Silver Duck

[TomC]

I have heard (but do not know for sure) that Maine will even tax a spouse's income earned in NH if there is family income earned in Maine - even for NH residents... can this be true?

I heard about this during the argument over what state the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard is in... i believe it is considered in Maine, but of course has lots of NH residents working there - whose incomes earned there are taxed by the state of Maine. As I understood it (hopefully incorrectly) that these workers' spouses also owe Maine state income tax on their earnings even if it comes from NH jobs....

Is is possible that some forum readers find themselves in this situation and can comment?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by TomC

I have heard (but do not know for sure) that Maine will even tax a spouse's income earned in NH if there is family income earned in Maine - even for NH residents... can this be true?

Maine does not tax the income of the spouse that works in New Hampshire (using your given example). However, the income earned by the spouse that worked in Maine is taxed in the tax bracket of the combined income of the two spouses. So if you live in New Hampshire but work in Maine while your significant other works in New Hampshire Maine taxes you not on the combined income of both of you, but only you at the higher tax bracket.

Of course Maine's sales tax & income tax have done little to alleviate the angst caused by its cities & towns property taxes. Living here on a border community with Maine I get to read at election time each year the anger just across the border by many Maine residents over their sky rocketing property taxes in addition to their sales & income taxes!

[islandAl]

Originally Posted by JDeere

Please demonstrate how if I a New Hampshire resident bought a second home in Mass.

Why would anyone living in NH want to have a second home anywhere else. You already have the best.

[snowbird]

Originally Posted by Paugus Bay Resident

New Hampshire has the 2nd lowest state tax burden, 7.3% of per-capita income. The lowest tax burden is Alaska (6.4%). This compares to the national average of 10.6%

Here's an interesting link http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/335.html

It seems strange to compare NH's tax burden to income when NH's income is not part of the tax picture. How about rating tax burden as a percentage of property value?

[jetskier]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Jetskier... Property tax is the only tax we pay here. Now take your property tax on your house, then add in your income tax, and then add in the sales tax on everything you buy (except food) and you will see that the tax burden here in NH is very low, I think only Tennesee is lower.

It really doesn't matter how people percieve thier property, be it investment or lifestyle or home. All of the states in the Union view property as a taxable assest and tax property at varying rates. In NH we rely soley on property tax and want to keep it that way.

Woodsy

The tax revenue is clearly based upon property taxes. Clearly! However, as an out of state property owner, I don't benefit from the lack of income tax. In addition, my contribution to overall cost is much lower than a full time resident...that has been discussed in this thread extensively. As such, it makes no sense to consider higher taxes for out of state owners. In addition, if you are going to run a state with a low tax burden, spending prudence is extremely important. As such, the deferred vacation payout previously mentioned is rankling. I believe that out of state owners carry their fair share of the tax burden. Nuff said.

Jetskier

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by jetskier

The tax revenue is clearly based upon property taxes. Clearly! However, as an out of state property owner, I don't benefit from the lack of income tax. In addition, my contribution to overall cost is much lower than a full time resident...that has been discussed in this thread extensively. As such, it makes no sense to consider higher taxes for out of state owners. In addition, if you are going to run a state with a low tax burden, spending prudence is extremely important. As such, the deferred vacation payout previously mentioned is rankling. I believe that out of state owners carry their fair share of the tax burden. Nuff said.

Jetskier

One could counter that it makes no sense to own taxable property where you cannot vote too... Out of state owners carry (willingly) way more than thier fair share. They can always stop buy selling or moving to NH permanently. I live in NH and (willingly) work in MA; comparitively I get nothing for my money, I could quit, but I like my job.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The solution as a few here have pointed out is watching the spending… For the most part I think the elected officials in NH do a pretty good job managing the money.

Lets see Schools, Marine Patrol, and Fish and Game, and those are just the government programs that are mentioned here.....I am not sure NH is doing a "pretty good job" but let me further back things up.....

Originally Posted by Woodsy

No thanks, no need to sell crazy here!! We have enough!

It is not NH's fault that your property values have skyrocketed.

No it is not NH's fault that prices have skyrocketed. What is crazy here though is this. As the prices have skyrocketed Tax rates have remained constant. Now if X * Y = Z and all though Y (tax rate) stays constant, if X (property value) gets larger, then Z (Tax income) gets larger. Having said that even if the only thing that has changed is property value the math shows the state is getting more money, so why are there funding issues......POOR MANAGEMENT.....not just at the state level but at the local level as well.......

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

I am pretty sure state law in MA limits your taxes to 2.5% of the value, and most towns run right 2.5% and few have voted in overrides.

Not quite right Woodsy, my property tax in MA runs right about at that 1.2 % mark. The 2.5 % number that's confusing you is actually a limit on the amount the tax levy (total collected) in a town can be raised before new growth is added. ( New growth would be a lot that had a house or bldg added to it, raising it's tax, that doesn't count toward the 2.5%) If the politicians want to raise taxes beyond that 2.5 %, they have to go to the voters and get, at least in our town, a 2/3 majority to agree with the increase. It does happen occasionally, sometimes the voters feel the increase is justified, sometimes they don't. I think this would be a great system for NH to adopt, you people in state should check it out.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

It is not NH's fault that your property values have skyrocketed. You have no one to blame but out of state residents such as yourselves who drove the value of property in NH thru the roof!

Nope, I don't buy this statement, most of my summertime neighbors are from NH. Plus you let the builders and the people selling off the hook. The people (probably some of which complain mightily about the taxes) who squeeze and gouge every last penny out of the properties they sell.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

In Meredith, the tax rate per $1000 dropped almost $5 because of the revaluation. No doubt the drop in the tax rate benefited some while hurting others.

I would guess that everyone saw their tax bill go up, the tax rate is adjusted based on the new valuation plus any increase approved. The only people who might see decrease are those whose assessment was wrong and had it fixed. Once again I'm sure there are a few exceptions.

The balance of what you said is spot on.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

..{snip}.. NH has one of the LOWEST tax burdens in the U.S.!! .. {snip} .. Meredith’s 2006 tax rate is $10.74 per $1000. {snip}

I agree with you there Woodsy on NH having one of the lowest tax burdens. I wish my property tax was as low as $10.74 per $1000 AND I pay sales tax and income tax on top of that.