...eeek.....it's back.....eek....oh-no!

[Evenstar]

Dave:

Some of the boats that we were very concerned about were traveling well in excess of 45mph, including one that came within 50 or 60 feet of us, as we were heading out of Center Harbor – at least we know that the operator saw us, because he was staring at us and grinning. When we crossed large stretches of open water (between islands), we often saw boats that were going faster than 45, some never got very close, some got closer than we liked, and some slowed way down as soon as they got anywhere near us.

A couple of the jet skis in Center Harbor were going pretty fast, but maybe not over 45 – mostly they were annoying, because they kept circling us – trying to get a better look as they showed off (we weren’t impressed). That was my partially own fault – it was a very hot day and I wearing a bikini.

It is impossible to tell exactly how fast someone is going on the water, but I spend so much time on Squam, where the 40mph speed limit gives me a pretty good idea of what that speed looks like, that it’s pretty easy to tell if a boat is going way faster than that.

My point about Governor’s Island was in response to the comment that the lake was a “ghost town” during the week. We didn’t encounter any boats traveling at high speed until we were well away from that traffic.

Squam has a lot of powerboats on it on weekends – it can be a real pain at times just to get to the river connecting Squam with Little Squam. In my opinion the 40 mph speed limit is what makes Squam feel safe to paddle, not the number of powerboats. Crossing large stretches of open water is not nearly as intimidating when powerboats are approaching you at slower speeds.

I live near a 10 mile lake and that can be a scary place to paddle on some weekends, not because there are so many boats (because the lake is not crowded), but because so many of the operators seem to think that their boats only have two speeds – stop and go (at full throttle).

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Dave:

\It is impossible to tell exactly how fast someone is going on the water, but I spend so much time on Squam, where the 40mph speed limit gives me a pretty good idea of what that speed looks like, that it’s pretty easy to tell if a boat is going way faster than that.
(at full throttle).

I respectfully agree with your first part of the paragraph and disagree with the last part.

I was in my ski boat in MA in a small lake. We like to go there because we are usually the only boat on the lake and it makes for perfect water skiing. There is a speed limit on all inland lakes in MA (45mph). I never went over 40mph all day as I knew that there were police watching us all day. When I went to pull my boat out of the water the police came and paid me a visit. They said that I was traveling in excess of 60 mph. They said that they knew that based on the rooster tail that my boat was putting up. The problem with their observation is that when this boat goes slower it puts out a larger rooster tail. Something that they did not understand. They after a nice discussion with them asked me to prove it. So I made a pass at 45 and another at 80. They thanked me after the demonstration and said that they were truly deceived. Now these are trained officers that do this for a living not just the summer. As has been said most boats are not capable of the speeds that you think that they are. Most on GPS will top out at about 40mph. Keck my Formula speed boat tops out at 55 . I am sure that it looks like it is going a lot faster but it is not.

My other issue is that my windsurfers travel well in excess of 45 mph. I have been clocked on one at 64mph. So I risk getting a ticket on one. Kind of takes the fun out of it if ya know what I mean....

I wish that I could agree with your assertion that you will be safer with people traveling a little slower but I can't. The accident rate has dropped faster in NH that any other state and that includes states that have implemented speed limits. The facts just do not seem to point towards your point except for the noise issue. As for that the manufacturers have made a HUGE effort to quite their boats. I think that you would be surprised at how well you can see in front of you at speed.

Hang in there everyone it is going to be a LONG winter

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Dave:

Some of the boats that we were very concerned about were traveling well in excess of 45mph, including one that came within 50 or 60 feet of us, as we were heading out of Center Harbor – at least we know that the operator saw us, because he was staring at us and grinning. When we crossed large stretches of open water (between islands), we often saw boats that were going faster than 45, some never got very close, some got closer than we liked, and some slowed way down as soon as they got anywhere near us.

A couple of the jet skis in Center Harbor were going pretty fast, but maybe not over 45 – mostly they were annoying, because they kept circling us – trying to get a better look as they showed off (we weren’t impressed). That was my partially own fault – it was a very hot day and I wearing a bikini.

It is impossible to tell exactly how fast someone is going on the water, but I spend so much time on Squam, where the 40mph speed limit gives me a pretty good idea of what that speed looks like, that it’s pretty easy to tell if a boat is going way faster than that.

My point about Governor’s Island was in response to the comment that the lake was a “ghost town” during the week. We didn’t encounter any boats traveling at high speed until we were well away from that traffic.

Squam has a lot of powerboats on it on weekends – it can be a real pain at times just to get to the river connecting Squam with Little Squam. In my opinion the 40 mph speed limit is what makes Squam feel safe to paddle, not the number of powerboats. Crossing large stretches of open water is not nearly as intimidating when powerboats are approaching you at slower speeds.

I live near a 10 mile lake and that can be a scary place to paddle on some weekends, not because there are so many boats (because the lake is not crowded), but because so many of the operators seem to think that their boats only have two speeds – stop and go (at full throttle).

Your post above makes a few great points that bolster the fact that a speed limit is not necessary. If a boat is traveling 50-60 feet from you at running speed, close enough that you can pick out a grin on the idiot drivers face then they have already broken an important, existing law, the 150' limit. If the driver never breaches the 150' rule you will never get hit. Period.

The people on the PWC had the right to circle around at speed as long as they are not breaching the rule as well. It may be annoying but unless they were within 150' of each other or you they were not breaking the law. No speed issue here.

I do have to beg to differ about estimating speed on water, it is no as easy as one would think. How do you truly know that those boats on Squam are doing 40mph just because there is a speed limit? The difference between 45mph and 55mph on water of an object that is a good distance away cannot be pinpointed by just looking at it...Unless that kayak of yours has a radar gun built in I would not make guesses, because without one they are just guesses.

I will say however that bikinis look better at distances closer than 150' and at slower speeds, so maybe some pictures would help the arguement.

Maybe a lake-wide dress code?

[secondcurve]

Codeman:

Sometimes bikinis look better at distances of further than 150 feet, which quite possibly applies here.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Codeman:

Sometimes bikinis look better at distances of further than 150 feet, which quite possibly applies here.

Ok, so what did I do to deserve that comment?????

For the record I'm a 6-foot tall strawberry-blonde - who played on my college's woman's volleyball team last year - and I'm in great shape - and I do fill out my bikini top.

[Dave R]

Some folks just want a speed limit, regardless of the need. There's no statistics to back up a speed limit, it's all about feelings for these folks and there's nothing wrong with that. I would not expect to change any minds.

I'd be for a speed limit if I could see a need.

Regarding the fear of boats being irrational, post an accurate statistic showing high speed (45+ MPH) boat collisions with Kayaks on NH lakes and you'll change my mind. It just does not happen. Fear of something that does not occur is rational? Statistically, you're vastly more likely to drown in a kayak from your own mistakes.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Regarding the fear of boats being irrational, post an accurate statistic showing high speed (45+ MPH) boat collisions with Kayaks on NH lakes and you'll change my mind. It just does not happen. Fear of something that does not occur is rational? Statistically, you're vastly more likely to drown in a kayak from your own mistakes.

I've already explained the main reason why kayakers are not getting getting hit by powerboats - it's because most are staying off the main lake - because they don't feel safe out there with boats traveling at high speeds. Basically padders have been pushed off the larger bodies of water in NH.

Island Life brought up a good point:

The number of paddlers is down significantly from what it was many years ago. And that is not because there are fewer paddlers out there - instead the sport is growing fast. The few I saw came by mostly in the early morning or mid-week when the boat traffic was low.

I tried to explain this last year on this same forum - compared with other lakes, winni has a very small percentage of kayakers. And, from my own personal experience very few ever venture out of the coves or away from the shore very far - hardly any go on out on the main lake.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Ok, so what did I do to deserve that comment?????

For the record I'm a 6-foot tall strawberry-blonde - who played on my college's woman's volleyball team last year - and I'm in great shape - and I do fill out my bikini top.

I guess the proof is in the picture...

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I guess the proof is in the picture...

Codeman this is bordering on creepy...with all due respect..stop please...you're turning this "forum" into another kind of "forum" and enough is enough. Thank-You.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Codeman this is bordering on creepy...with all due respect..stop please...you're turning this "forum" into another kind of "forum" and enough is enough. Thank-You.

Do people have no sense of humor? Obviously not you...

Why don't you comment on the topic at hand instead of harrassing me for making a lighthearted comment in line with a joke that was already running with a few other posters. I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

I thought Codeman was a lecherous old man . . . now I realize he's 9.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island Life

I thought Codeman was a lecherous old man . . . now I realize he's 9.

Your post probably doesn't warrant a response but I will do so anyway. No, I am not a lecherous old man, nor am I 9. I made a joke which did not seem to bother Evenstar anywhere as much as it did unrelated posters. If it did she is welcome to PM me and I will apologize however I will not apologize publicly for injecting a bit of humor into a serious discussion. Judging by other responses some people were able to comprehend a bit of humor and rolled with it. Judging by the responses of Evenstar I think it rolled off just fine, in fact she answered with a bit of humor back at me.

This is a serious matter and should be taken so as it will affect many people, boaters, paddlers, businesses, etc.. But let's keep it real, we all share this wonderful body of water together and need to find a solution to get along. Hopefully we all will have something to smile about at the end of this.

Back to the topic at hand:

As much as I hate the thought of it and am opposed to it I do believe that this time around the Winnfabbs crew may get what they asked for. What will be funny though is a year from the decision and implementation of it the "I told ya so" 's that will be flying when things do not change. There will still be close calls, there will still be BWI, there will still be many unexperienced uneducated boaters roaming the lakes, and there still be overcrowding. Other than a few speeding tickets issued which will not offset the costs involved what will really change?

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Your post probably doesn't warrant a response but I will do so anyway.

Just having a little joke with KonaChick and hoping she's one-tough-New-Hampshire-woman who is not deterred by your rude and "off-topic" response to her post:

Originally Posted by codeman671

Do people have no sense of humor? Obviously not you...

Why don't you comment on the topic at hand instead of harrassing me for making a lighthearted comment in line with a joke that was already running with a few other posters. I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

By the way, KonaChick, thanks.

[secondcurve]

Island Life & Konachic:

I am sorry that each of you were apparently offended by some of the comments in this thread. Codeman, myself and Evenstar were simply enjoying a little good natured banter. I don't think anyone crossed the line, so please don't take our comments too seriously. Remember, we are talking about recreational boating, not bypass surgery! Life is short and I for one don't want to die with a scowl on my face and you ladies shouldn't either.

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Island Life & Konachic:

I am sorry that each of you were apparently offended by some of the comments in this thread. Codeman, myself and Evenstar were simply enjoying a little good natured banter. I don't think anyone crossed the line, so please don't take our comments too seriously. Remember, we are talking about recreational boating, not bypass surgery! Life is short and I for one don't want to die with a scowl on my face and you ladies shouldn't either.

SC: I was not offended by the borish bikini jokes. But notice, Evenstar has not been back.

A more careful read of my last post shows, rather, that I didn't like the way one forum member made fun of another forum member's positive and appreciative comment. It reminded me of something a little kid would do; the only thing missing was the word "duh."

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am sure you must be able to come up with something better than "Wow...Bravo!"

If I were a thin-skinned person, such a judgmental response to one of my posts might keep me from posting again. I was merely lending my support to KC and hoping she's not a thin-skinned person and we'll keep hearing from her.

No scowl on this face.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Island Life

SC: I was not offended by the borish bikini jokes. But notice, Evenstar has not been back.

A more careful read of my last post shows, rather, that I didn't like the way one forum member made fun of another forum member's positive and appreciative comment. It reminded me of something a little kid would do; the only thing missing was the word "duh."




If I were a thin-skinned person, such a judgmental response to one of my posts might keep me from posting again. I was merely lending my support to KC and hoping she's not a thin-skinned person and we'll keep hearing from her.

No scowl on this face.

My response was to two back to back posts by KC, one which was directly slamming me. Can we all just move on? This is getting a bit too melodramatic for my taste. Bravo to SC for trying to put this behind us, can we PLEASE move on now before the real topic gets shut down?

Damn this is going to be a long winter...Any signs of ice out?

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by codeman671

My response was to two back to back posts by KC, one which was directly slamming me. Can we all just move on? This is getting a bit too melodramatic for my taste. Bravo to SC for trying to put this behind us, can we PLEASE move on now before the real topic gets shut down?

Damn this is going to be a long winter...Any signs of ice out?

He's like the energizer bunny...he goes on and on and on and on and on

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Codeman:

Sometimes bikinis look better at distances of further than 150 feet, which quite possibly applies here.

Hilarious!!!

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Your post above makes a few great points that bolster the fact that a speed limit is not necessary. If a boat is traveling 50-60 feet from you at running speed, close enough that you can pick out a grin on the idiot drivers face then they have already broken an important, existing law, the 150' limit. If the driver never breaches the 150' rule you will never get hit. Period.

How does the fact that some boaters are breaking one law negate the need for a totally different law? The way that I see it, the very fact that the 150' rule is being broken is a strong point for the need of a speed limit. Since powerboats are coming closer than 150' to me, my chances of being hit increases as their speed increases, since higher speeds = less time to avoid me.

I have spent enough time out on the water to know when a boat is going way faster than 40 or 45 mph.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

How does the fact that some boaters are breaking one law negate the need for a totally different law? The way that I see it, the very fact that the 150' rule is being broken is a strong point for the need of a speed limit. Since powerboats are coming closer than 150' to me, my chances of being hit increases as their speed increases, since higher speeds = less time to avoid me.

I have spent enough time out on the water to know when a boat is going way faster than 40 or 45 mph.

Do you think that if someone is breaking a 150' law that they will obey the speed limit? If they obey the law that is on the books there is no issue, you will not get hit. While on topic before I start thinking of springtime and bikinis do you have any data to show the number of accidents in NH where a paddler was run down by a powerboat? I would be wiling to bet that more paddlers (canoe, kayak, rowboat, etc) die each year on their own than by being run down.

Enforcement of current laws is the answer. There was countless times last year that I witnessed 150' infringements, honestly dozens per day spent on the water. I sit on my dock and watch them right in front of the house, I don't even have to travel to witness it

I would have to guess that no more than 10-15% of the boats on the lake do over 50mph. Based on the dealers on the lake and what they are selling, most lines sold build boats that do 50mph or less.

So do you really think that adding a speed limit is really going to make a difference in your safety? Just another useless law targeting a very small percentage of boaters that I do not believe are the majority of the offenders. Only once last summer did I witness a performance boat (2 actually, racing by) that were pushing the realm of reasonable speed and distance. The average offender was the 21'-25' family boat that makes up the bulk of the boats on the lake.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by codeman671

...Enforcement of current laws is the answer.

I've personally talked with a number of marine patrol officers, and guess what? The all were in favor of having a speed limit. And guess why? So that they would have something concrete to enforce. I was told that it's really hard to prove reckless operation, and it's not that easy to catch someome breaking the 150' rule (and even harder to prove).

I would have to guess that no more than 10-15% of the boats on the lake do over 50mph. Based on the dealers on the lake and what they are selling, most lines sold build boats that do 50mph or less.

Ok, so why are we letting 10-15% of the boaters keep others from feeling safe on our lakes?

I've brought this up many times: From the perspective of a kayaker, who has spent time out on both lakes in the middle of the summer - Squam, NH's 2nd largest lake, feels much safer than Wnnipesaukee. And the proof is in the number of paddlers out on Squam. If a speed limit has no effect, then why does Squam have so many more paddlers?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

I've personally talked with a number of marine patrol officers, and guess what? The all were in favor of having a speed limit. And guess why? So that they would have something concrete to enforce. I was told that it's really hard to prove reckless operation, and it's not that easy to catch someome breaking the 150' rule (and even harder to prove).

Funny, the many that I have talked to are against it. Guess what? Even the director of Marine Patrol has publicly stated that it is not the answer.

Guess what? Marine Patrol who is already spread thin can go in search of the small percentage of speeders who probably aren't endangering anyone, but when needed for an emergency non-speed related situation they will take longer to respond, putting others at risk.

Let's put a registration law in place for all kayaks, canoes, etc to help fund this resource sucking monster which you are trying to create. I am sure the complaints will fly then... I have always found it ridiculous that power boaters end up footing the bill for all while the paddlers get a free ride.

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Let's put a registration law in place for all kayaks, canoes, etc to help fund this resource sucking monster which you are trying to create. I am sure the complaints will fly then... I have always found it ridiculous that power boaters end up footing the bill for all while the paddlers get a free ride.

What free ride? Paddling happens to be a real work out - rent a kayak sometime and I'll take you out on a lake and show you how much of free ride it is.

There's a couple of pretty good reasons: The marine patrol doesn't spend much time chasing down kayakers who are breaking laws. And kayakers are not polluting our public waters.

But I personally would have no problem with a reasonable registration fee for my kayak (and I've stated that before) - but I would then expect to be able to park in public boat launch areas, that are currently only open to trailers.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

What free ride? Paddling happens to be a real work out - try it some time and see how much of free ride it is.

I was clearly talking about money. Registrations.

And I have tried it. I prefer my boats to have engines. Not because I am lazy or opposed to exercise, because I do not get enjoyment from paddling around. I am not downing it, or downing those that do it, its just not my taste. I prefer grabbing a dozen or so friends and family and heading out for an afternoon or evening cruise.

As are you I am passionate about boating, just a different type. I grew up on the water, my family is well tied into the boating industry. I own 4 boats + 2 pwc and spend countless hours on the lake. I am on the lake before ice out is declared in the spring and boat until the week of ice-in in the winter. Call me crazy but it was quite fun to see the looks on peoples faces Saturday when I boated down the Weirs Channel during the Derby.

[Evenstar]

I was only trying to make a joke (which is not something that I am very good at - sorry).

I do respect your type of preferred boating - and I have nothing at all against most powerboaters (just the ones that scare me). I just prefer kayaking, and I love the workout (I'm a bit hyper). I'm on the water in April just as soon as the ice is off in my area and I have kayaked well into November. I paddled over 500 miles over the past two years - so I also spend a great deal of time on the water.

I did address the registration idea in my last post - in all fairness a registration fee for non motorized boats should be a very small fee, since we have a much smaller impact, as far as any costs go.

[Island Life]

I have to hand it to you for staying in the fight, Evenstar, but I don't know why you bother. I get what you're saying and completely agree - really fast boats are scary to kayakers because you don't know if there will be enough time for them to react once they finally see you. But you're never going to change the minds of most of these people.

Everyone enjoys the Lake in their own way. Personally, I do enjoy speeding around in my boat once in a while (it's an old beater and probably can't top 45 or so on a good day). When I'm doing that, though, my experience is more about going fast and being outdoors with the wind through my hair; the fact that I'm on the lake is - for me - almost secondary at these times. But the Lake . . . the Lake I soak into my soul every day when I paddle quietly around the island, sit on my dock at night, listen to the loon, fish. These are the experiences I couldn't live without. I was a more serious paddler a few years back and I know how important it can be to your entire being to be out there, powering yourself through the water swiftly and gracefully. It's addictive. And people who don't do it, don't get it. And they have little idea of what the Lake looks like from that perspective - and what might be a rational or irrational fear.

I've spent part of every summer of my life on the Lake. So did my dad, and his dad, and his dad. And oh yeah, his dad too. Same place. 120 years. Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing. But, obviously, some people do - that's okay. We have to put up with them, and they have to put up with us. Don't let them bully you, tell you you're a hazard or try to drive you away to another lake. And for godsake, don't give them any more fodder for their rude comments about your body. Grow up boys, those comments say a lot about you as people.

Keep on paddling, Evenstar. We'll be watching out for you.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by DaveR

"...There's no statistics to back up a speed limit..."

True enough: nobody's seen any statistics on breaking Winnipesaukee's speed limit.

Originally Posted by Island Life

"...Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing.

OK: You're old-fashioned.

Looks like you missed the GFBL with the name "Crowd Pleezah" on its flanks blasting by. Whom were they kidding?

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

"...My other issue is that my windsurfers travel well in excess of 45 mph. I have been clocked on one at 64mph..."

Beware the Winnipesaukee sailor setting the World's Record for windsurfers!

Originally Posted by Second Curve

"...most parts of Winnipesaukee are unfit for small watercraft and this isn't going to change...The good news is that there are many smaller lakes and ponds in the area that are perfect for small watercraft.

Boating-to-excess' answer to Lake Winnipesaukee's smaller boaters is eminent domain?.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Originally Posted by Island Life

"...I have to hand it to you for staying in the fight, Evenstar, but I don't know why you bother. I get what you're saying and completely agree - really fast boats are scary to kayakers because you don't know if there will be enough time for them to react once they finally see you. But you're never going to change the minds of most of these people..."

Evenstar, let the State proceed with the will of the voters—many of whom won't accept the risks imposed by boating's status quo on Lake Winnipesaukee.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Beware the Winnipesaukee sailor setting the World's Record for windsurfers!

Have seen two that definitely were traveling faster than 45 mph - they tend to prefer venturing out when the wind is really blowing - not exactly fair-weather sailors.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Evenstar, let the State proceed with the will of the voters—many of whom won't accept the risks imposed by boating's status quo on Lake Winnipesaukee.

The will of the voters or the will of the political elite?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by GWC...

"...Have seen two that definitely were traveling faster than 45 mph - they tend to prefer venturing out when the wind is really blowing - not exactly fair-weather sailors..."

Agreed that windsurfers pick the windiest days, but it's odd that you think that windsurfers are traveling as fast as 45 mph. The world's record is 46 knots, and is regularly attempted at one of only two sites: Australia and Port St. Louis, France.

The waves at both locations are minimal due to a low, protective, berm of sand. The waves that slow these craft are kept down, whereas the wind remains the same.

You'll appreciate this French invitation to windsurf in 75 knot hurricane winds : http://www.internationalwindsurfing....29&newsid=1026

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...There have been ZIP/ZERO/NADA accidents since 2002 that have occured at a speed GREATER THAN 45MPH...!

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

Why, I don't know, but I'm sure you will tell us, even if you don't know.

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Agreed that windsurfers pick the windiest days, but it's odd that you think that windsurfers are traveling as fast as 45 mph. The world's record is 46 knots, and is regularly attempted at one of only two sites: Australia and Port St. Louis, France.

The waves at both locations are minimal due to a low, protective, berm of sand. The waves that slow these craft are kept down, whereas the wind remains the same.

You'll appreciate this French invitation to windsurf in 75 knot hurricane winds : http://www.internationalwindsurfing....29&newsid=1026

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant

There's a river by Mt Hood east of Portland, OR, I think it's the Columbia river, where they do some serious windsurfing, the wind there is always high and I'd bet they get some good speeds recorded there as well. I've seen as many as 100 windsurfers out there and it's a pretty cool site.

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

What speed was the 4-ton Formula going that flipped and sank in Tuftonboro waters in 2005?
What speed was the 4-ton Cigarette going that flipped and sank in 2004?
What speed was the 5-ton Fountain going that flipped and sank in Chestnut Cove in 2003?
What speed was the 5-ton boat going that flipped and sank in 1998?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving. The boat had very little damage to it proving this. The boat weights 7200 pounds.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ITD

Why, I don't know, but I'm sure you will tell us, even if you don't know.

Nobody truly knows at what speeds those "flipped-and-sank" accidents occurred. NHRBA posted that they had acquired the NH Marine Patrol's 2002-2006 Accident Reports—wouldn't it be edifying to this discussion to disclose the factual speeds here?

http://wolfeboro.net/option,com_joom...limitstart,60/

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

"...I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving..."

Sorry, Jon, but an anecdote is not a FACT.

(I'd very much like to read, "it rolled over" in an official MP report, too!)

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

World Record runs are your average run over 500 meters. There are times of speeds WELL in excess of record speeds and then well below and the average is...... My run was a instantanious burst radared by a State Policeman in very similiar contitions to what you listed behind the Seabrook Power Plant.

Radar? Reading a windsurfer?

Jon, are you speaking to the same effectiveness of radar over water as this post?

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=101

We ran a radar trap for a Poker run in upstate NY. They were unable to get a read off ANY of our boats. That included one run that they asked us to go with in 30 feet of their boat. The radar was run by a certified officer and he could not make it work. So how do you measure speed on the water?

Jon

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

I can not speek for the other accidents but I am very familiar with the Cigarette accident as a friend of mine purchased that boat after it rolled over. The boat was traveling WELL below 45 miles per hour. The operator made a mistake while driving. The boat had very little damage to it proving this. The boat weights 7200 pounds.

I see both sides of the speed limit issue, which is why I have stayed quiet for the most part.... But um you are judging speed by the amount of damage.... that is not a fair assumption.... just because the boat didn't sustain what you would call major damage, doesn't mean it wasn't going fast....watch offshore racing sometime, I have seen some boats go through some pretty wild accidents and be ok on the other end. Well others have sank when you didn't see anything wrong........

There are two sides to this, and people have choosen their sides, and we will never all agree.... so lets admit to that....

[Weirs guy]

I see a lot of people posting about various accidents around the lake and wondering if they were caused by excessive speed, even going so far as to inferring that a speed limit could have prevented them.

I assume we will need to buy radar guns and train the MP on how to use them? Since I've seen radar guns clock pine tree's at 7 MPH (the tree later failed a field sobriety test as well), and anyone who's ever fought a speeding ticket knows that the police will admit they are inaccurate, then your 45 MPH speed limit becomes more like a 50 - 55 MPH enforceable limit. Is there a study or other FACTUAL information that shows a 50 - 55 MPH limit on Winni will prevent accidents?

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent on enforcing a speed limit, wouldn't it make sense to determine if a speed limit will prevent accidents?

[Gavia immer]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Is there a study or other FACTUAL information that shows a 50 - 55 MPH limit on Winni will prevent accidents?

My guess would be, that is pocket-change stuff to be overlooked. Doubling or tripling your numbers would put speeds into some awful serious territory.

[Woodsy]

The debate rages on!! Oh joy.....

WinnFabs picked 45MPH because thats what they have for a speed limit in MA and over on Lake George NY. There isn't ANY statistical data to support that 45 is a good number, its just an arbitrary number. One also has to remember that Lake George is a State park and you have to pay a fee to boat there. Niether Lake George nor MA has a 150' Safe Passage Rule... I can LEGALLY go by you 1 foot from your gunwale as long as I don't exceed 45MPH. Talk about not safe for canoeist & kayakers!!! Evenstar care to chime in on this??

FACTS we need to remember...

1. Boating registrations are UP while the accident rate is down! Safe Boater Education is WORKING!

2. There have been less than 180 reportable boating accidents that resulted in personal injury between 2002 and 2006. The primary source of these personal injuries is a result of individuals being pulled behind a vessel, such as water skis, wakeboards and/or tubes along with PWC’s. The State of New Hampshire has not had a boating fatality as the result of a collision in the last four years!!

3. NH has an average of 44 boating accidents that result in personal injury every year. Not too bad considering the 100,000+ boats we have registered in the state and god only knows how many day trippers from out-of-state!

Speed is not the issue here, and really it never was. The issues here are reckless operation or ignorance of the 150' Safe Passage Rule, and noise. Both problems we already have laws on the books for!

Woodsy

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Gavia immer

My guess would be, that is pocket-change stuff to be overlooked. Doubling or tripling your numbers would put speeds into some awful serious territory.

If one was going double the limit, there'd be no point stopping. The MP has no boats that can catch a boat that fast, the roostertail will obscure the name on the transom, and there's no way anyone's gonna be able to read 3" high bow numbers at that speed. Custom paint, like a big "look at me" name on the side of the boat, might be a problem though...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent on enforcing a speed limit, wouldn't it make sense to determine if a speed limit will prevent accidents?

This argument didn't work last year, can't imagine it will this year either. The State Senate voted down HB162 because it was "unenforceable", if memory serves, not because it was a bad idea.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Island Life

Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing. But, obviously, some people do - that's okay. We have to put up with them, and they have to put up with us.

Nor I. My boat has never been over 50 in Winnipesaukee (not enough power) and we typically cruise at 28 to 32 MPH. I find high performance boats a bit too one dimensional for my needs and too expensive for my budget.

I've spent countless hours in human powered boats and have never once feared power boats. The worst I've dealt with is excessive wakes from boats going too slowly. Winnipesaukee is wonderful for boating of all types. There's far more courtesy there than in many other places I've been.

Being a part-time paddler, I cannot imagine why anyone would ever want to paddle in big open areas of lake, even if there's not a single power boat in sight. It's much more fun to meander along the shore in areas where propeller driven craft hit rocks. That said, I'm not slamming people for wanting to paddle out in the open; like high performance boats, I just don't get it.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Island Life

I have to hand it to you for staying in the fight, Evenstar, but I don't know why you bother. I get what you're saying and completely agree - really fast boats are scary to kayakers because you don't know if there will be enough time for them to react once they finally see you. But you're never going to change the minds of most of these people.

Everyone enjoys the Lake in their own way. Personally, I do enjoy speeding around in my boat once in a while (it's an old beater and probably can't top 45 or so on a good day). When I'm doing that, though, my experience is more about going fast and being outdoors with the wind through my hair; the fact that I'm on the lake is - for me - almost secondary at these times. But the Lake . . . the Lake I soak into my soul every day when I paddle quietly around the island, sit on my dock at night, listen to the loon, fish. These are the experiences I couldn't live without. I was a more serious paddler a few years back and I know how important it can be to your entire being to be out there, powering yourself through the water swiftly and gracefully. It's addictive. And people who don't do it, don't get it. And they have little idea of what the Lake looks like from that perspective - and what might be a rational or irrational fear.

I've spent part of every summer of my life on the Lake. So did my dad, and his dad, and his dad. And oh yeah, his dad too. Same place. 120 years. Call me old-fashioned, but I just don't get the whole performance boat thing. But, obviously, some people do - that's okay. We have to put up with them, and they have to put up with us. Don't let them bully you, tell you you're a hazard or try to drive you away to another lake. And for godsake, don't give them any more fodder for their rude comments about your body. Grow up boys, those comments say a lot about you as people.

Keep on paddling, Evenstar. We'll be watching out for you.

Wow...Bravo! Couldn't have said it better if I tried!

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

What free ride? Paddling happens to be a real work out - rent a kayak sometime and I'll take you out on a lake and show you how much of free ride it is.

There's a couple of pretty good reasons: The marine patrol doesn't spend much time chasing down kayakers who are breaking laws. And kayakers are not polluting our public waters.

But I personally would have no problem with a reasonable registration fee for my kayak (and I've stated that before) - but I would then expect to be able to park in public boat launch areas, that are currently only open to trailers.

Unfortunately hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent each year trying to find people that die in Canoe and Kayak related accidents. Usually caused by their own doing not speed of other boats.

One such accident caused the start of this bill in MA. http://www.vse.cape.com/~harborm/cih...smissing2.html

A quote from this bill:

The Firestone tires on Ford Explorers killed 200 people in rollovers between 1993 and 2002. During that same period, canoes and kayaks took a thousand US victims.**

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

There's a couple of pretty good reasons: The marine patrol doesn't spend much time chasing down kayakers who are breaking laws. And kayakers are not polluting our public waters.

But Fish & Game expends lots of time, money and resources trying to find missing or drowned kayakers and canoeists.... I would love to know what the bill was for the search for the kayaker that drowned during the Alstead flood....

Woodsy

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

But Fish & Game expends lots of time, money and resources trying to find missing or drowned kayakers and canoeists.... I would love to know what the bill was for the search for the kayaker that drowned during the Alstead flood....

Woodsy

Who knows...perhaps comparable to the investigation into that boat (that must have been going at pretty high speed) that crashed into I think it was Eagle Island last year? The one driven by teenagers if i recall correctly.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Who knows...perhaps comparable to the investigation into that boat (that must have been going at pretty high speed) that crashed into I think it was Eagle Island last year? The one driven by teenagers if i recall correctly.

How "high" is pretty high ? The boat was a Crownline cruiser whose top speed is about 48 mph. Too high for drunk teenagers but do we want drunk teenagers setting the standard for what the rest of us can and can't do ?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

do we want drunk teenagers setting the standard for what the rest of us can and can't do ?

They would probably be about as equally unqualified to decide what's safe on the lake, and what's not, as the sponsors of the latest speed limit bill (is it a bill yet?)

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Who knows...perhaps comparable to the investigation into that boat (that must have been going at pretty high speed) that crashed into I think it was Eagle Island last year? The one driven by teenagers if i recall correctly.

Sorry KC, got to call you on this one. Not much of an investigation in that incident. The primary factor in that accident was alcohol. Speed was not a factor. If you are trying to fan the fire on the speed limit issue, use facts not assumptions or embellishments.

[overlook]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

Sorry KC, got to call you on this one. Not much of an investigation in that incident. The primary factor in that accident was alcohol. Speed was not a factor. If you are trying to fan the fire on the speed limit issue, use facts not assumptions or embellishments.

Speed was a factor, he should have been under 6 mph when he crashed.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by overlook

Speed was a factor, he should have been under 6 mph when he crashed.

What he should have been, quite simply, was not drunk.

Seems to me that there already is a law to cover that situation.

Perhaps you overlooked that minor detail...

[WeirsBeachBoater]

Originally Posted by overlook

Speed was a factor, he should have been under 6 mph when he crashed.

Why was he supposed to be at 6 mph? Because he was within 150 ft of shore? That is correct, however he was Supposed to be SOBER, and he wasn't supposed to be out in mom and dads boat with out permission. Try all you want to make that accident about speed. Its not, its about sobriety and lack of respect for all laws. I would like to see a report from MP that attributes the incident to speed. Then I will recant my position.

[KonaChick]

I think the original question was about cost...you know the exact dollar amount spent on the investigation WiersBeachBoater?? Is this information public? I'd love to read up on it....oh i see you haven't seen a report about the incident as you stated you'd like to see one that attributes the accident to speed. I guess we are back where we started then..perhaps the investigation into the drowing in Alstead could equal this one.

[WeirsBeachBoater]

KC, you are missing my point. Pro speed limit people bring out these stories about terror, and fear. Well I hate to break it to everyone. The public has caught on. The sky is not falling! There are no hard facts to prove that speed is directly related to issues on the lakes. The only facts are that boat registrations are up and accidents are down. The education is working.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by WeirsBeachBoater

KC, you are missing my point. Pro speed limit people bring out these stories about terror, and fear. Well I hate to break it to everyone. The public has caught on. The sky is not falling! There are no hard facts to prove that speed is directly related to issues on the lakes. The only facts are that boat registrations are up and accidents are down. The education is working.

Silly me...I thought we were talking about dollars and sense.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by KonaChick

Silly me...I thought we were talking about dollars and sense.

True enough, the topic was cost and then did revert back to the OP. But based on last year, are we now going to start discussing the cost of swimming in the lake ?

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by codeman671

.

Let's put a registration law in place for all kayaks, canoes, etc to help fund this resource sucking monster which you are trying to create. I am sure the complaints will fly then... I have always found it ridiculous that power boaters end up footing the bill for all while the paddlers get a free ride.

Gosh not only people in canoes etc. but what about people who use our roads to bicycles or even tricycles on no reason they should get off free either. I think you should contact your rep. and demand they introduce a bill to stop this flagrant abuse. Maybe a smaller fee for a canoe since the only use one paddle but a kayaker with the double paddle should pay more!!! We must stop this type of abuse!

I think someone needs to chill.
>>
Oh…………I forgot to mention.
>>
The speed limit is coming!!! Hip Hip Hoooooraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy.
>>

[Chris Craft]

APS: To get a read with my windsurfer I had to strap TWO licence plates to my boddy to make it work. Prior to that we were getting VERY erratic readings. So should I brace for a licence plate bracket requirement on my boat now

APS I think that you and I will have to agree that we will not see the same side of this issue. While I love a good debate I know that the owner of the site does not want these wars to go on so I am going to respectuflly bow out of any debate with you. It has been fun

[Woodsy]

If the speed limit comes, and nothing changes, then what?? What will the new complaint be?? Call the MP, that boat was going faster than 45MPH!

We will still have congested areas, we will still have 150' violations, we will still have noisy boats, we will still have reckless operators... we can just add one more complaint to the list, we will still have speeding boats...

It is truly amazing to me the complete willingness of some to take away somebody's civil liberty just because you don't like them.

Woodsy

[Island Life]

Originally Posted by JDeere

Gosh not only people in canoes etc. but what about people who use our roads to bicycles or even tricycles on no reason they should get off free either. I think you should contact your rep. and demand they introduce a bill to stop this flagrant abuse. Maybe a smaller fee for a canoe since the only use one paddle but a kayaker with the double paddle should pay more!!! We must stop this type of abuse!

I think someone needs to chill.

Don't forget all those darn pedestrians. Sometimes I actually have to stop my big, fast moving car to let them cross the road. What hazards they are!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by JDeere

Gosh not only people in canoes etc. but what about people who use our roads to bicycles or even tricycles on no reason they should get off free either. I think you should contact your rep. and demand they introduce a bill to stop this flagrant abuse. Maybe a smaller fee for a canoe since the only use one paddle but a kayaker with the double paddle should pay more!!! We must stop this type of abuse!

I think someone needs to chill.
>>
Oh…………I forgot to mention.
>>
The speed limit is coming!!! Hip Hip Hoooooraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy.
>>

Chill? Honestly I am more upset about my tax bill than a speed limit coming. It will really not have much if any effect on me, my boats barely break 50mph. Do I want one? Hell no. It is a useless, unwarranted law that has yet to be proven necessary, started by a group with what I believe to be hidden agendas hiding behind a pitch of fear and claims of safety issues on the lake.

Let it come, we shall be hearing a lot more from WINNFABS when nothing changes. What's next?

As far as registrations for non-powered vessels my intent was to touch in the fact that this new law will cost $$$, extra equipment, more manpower, etc to attempt to enforce. Looking at how MP is funded the people asking for this should also consider the costs involved to put it in place, and should have a plan to help fund it. Spreading it out a bit so that not only the power boaters are sucking up the cost would be good. If this is truly about safety then I would think that users of non-powered vessels who "will benefit" from this should help fund it.

Maybe those big, fast moving cars should slow down. There are speed limits ya know...

the lecherous energizer bunny

[fatlazyless]

'Worry is a Misuse of Your Imagination.'

What am I talking about? Drove by the Lakeport Landing Marina on Union Ave, Laconia yesterday, and was surprised to see that message on their big signboard. In the past, it has said 'Governor Craig Benson' and more recently it said 'Senator Robert Boyce.' Today, it says 'Worry is a Misuse of Your Imagination.'

Lakeport is the only Winnipesaukee Formula dealer and Formula is the one brand that Lakeport carries.

Translation from New Hampshire-speak to American English-speak = 'Don't Worry - Be Happy!'

Hey, after Governor Craig Benson and Senator Robert Boyce it's terrific to see that Lakeport Landing is getting a new attitude adjustment and lightening up here. From Craig Benson to "Worry is a Misuse of Your Imagination." Get it? So, why are they saying this?

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Evenstar

I've brought this up many times: From the perspective of a kayaker, who has spent time out on both lakes in the middle of the summer - Squam, NH's 2nd largest lake, feels much safer than Wnnipesaukee. And the proof is in the number of paddlers out on Squam. If a speed limit has no effect, then why does Squam have so many more paddlers?

Umm, because a much bigger lake is right down the road and so that's where the boaters go