...eeek.....it's back.....eek....oh-no!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Island Life

Hmmmm . . . could it perhaps be, just perhaps of course, that the rest of us are being hyper-vigilant in our attempts to avoid potential collisions because it's sometimes such a mess out there. I know of many boaters who give way or change course when there are fast boats around because of bad experiences they've had with high-performance boats not giving way.

Now, that could happen with any size boat, of course (not giving way). My point is that some people are driving more defensively and this could contribute to fewer accidents.

So your solution to the "mess" would be to institute speed limit and do away with defensive "driving"? I LIKE that other boaters operate in a "hyper-vigilant" manner, that's how anyone operating a boat should be; keeps us from hitting kayaks and such. I don't think a speed limit should stop us from being hyper-vigilant, boats are dangerous machine when operated carelessly.

Other than in a collision avoidance move, if a boater gives way when they are the stand on vessel, they are breaking the law. Perhaps it's these boaters who give way when they should stand on, solely due to the type of boats around them, that are the cause of the "mess".

If by "mess", you mean congestion, a speed limit will do nothing to relieve it.

[Island Life]

No, Dave, you know I don't mean to do away with defensive driving. Don't twist words into ridiculous conclusions to serve your own point.

What I'm saying is that sometimes we have to slow down and give way to high-performance boats because they are going to cross in front of our bow whether they have the right of way or not, simply because they have the horse-power to do it. That is what I mean by driving-defensively: collision avoidance. I've seen several boats slow down to a near stop to avoid colliding with a fast, give-way that had gunned it across their bow. If they hadn't done so, they would have passed within feet of the other boat (at best). And what if the faster boat had slowed down as it was crossing the slower boat's bow? Collision.


These boaters were not causing the problems, they were avoiding otherwise inevitable accidents - and, I believe, this is what we were discussing: why there are fewer accidents even though it sometimes like the Wild West out there.

[jeffk]

Boating is, by nature, significantly more complicated than driving a car because it involves operating on a largely unrestricted 360 degree surface. Even though the rules say you are primarily responsible for a smaller range where you are the give way vessel, it would be foolish not to be aware of all vessels anywhere around you. As pointed out, it would be foolish, and illegal, not to take action to avoid an anticipated collision. Defensive boating undoubtedly contributes to keeping the accident numbers down in the state.

That said, in the case where a vessel is operating as described, they have already violated the right-of-way regulations and also safe passage if they had come within a few feet of another boat. Since the operator is clearly a law breaking bonehead, what difference would the existence of a speed limit make? Would the "slower" boat have felt so secure that a speed limit would protect him that he would take no defensive action? I hope not. Would the bonehead realize that he was violating the speed limit although he is oblivious and unconcerned about the other laws he was breaking? I doubt it. Would the marine patrol, now armed with the mother of all laws, the speed limit, magically arrive to pull the scofflaw over. It would shock the heck out of me.

I have been boating on Winni for 12 years, longer than some, far less than others. I would note that the scenario described has indeed happened to me, multiple times every year, with one difference. I have never had it happen with a performance boat. All sorts of other boats, yes, even some unpowered ones. I don't deny that some performance boat operators might fall victim to the same lack of judgment that obviously infects so many boat operators on the lake, however it's not the type of boat that causes the problem, its the ignorance of the operator.

We have all the regulations we need to maintain safe boating. We need to continue to educate boaters, try to instill a sense of responsibility and boating courtesy, and enforce the laws we have. I'm not saying it's an easy or quick fix but in the long run it's the only thing that will really make a difference.

[Woodsy]

Regardless of who is the stand on boat or the give way boat, the captains of both boats are ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for the safety of thier boat and are REQUIRED to do everything possible to avoid a collison. This means that on occasion, the stand on boat will need to give way. When in doubt of the other boats intentions, assess the situation, and if neccesary slow down or stop.

As far as some of the arguments presented by the pro-speed limit folks, the reality is we have more boats using the lake than ever, yet our accident rate is down. There have been no fatalities since 2002 as the result of a collision between boats. We can argue if its because of boater education or just better vigilance, but the fact remains... more boats, less accidents!

Woodsy

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I don't think a speed limit should stop us from being hyper-vigilant, boats are dangerous machine when operated carelessly. I LIKE that other boaters operate in a "hyper-vigilant" manner, that's how anyone operating a boat should be; keeps us from hitting kayaks and such.

1) Psychologists say hyper-vigilance is exhausting: add sun, waves, wakes, alcohol, and inadequate hydration, and you have a recipe for tragedy.

2) Powerboating, at least, shouldn't be physically draining. Describing your own boat as "twitchy" at 50 mph, I'd sure hope the operator—and any boaters nearby—would be hydrated, sober, and attentive to those on the edge of control.

Originally Posted by Mee'n'Mac

Amazing, how did that happen ? I mean with no speed limits and all them dangerous boats out there creating all that anarchy, I'd have thought we'd have dozens of collisons each and every year.

1) The boating public has no access here to Marine Patrol report Boating Accidents 2002-2006.

Opponents credit education with the sudden accident downturn; however, on-line testing has been discontinued by the NHMP, citing their own poor administration of the test.

We see only what NHRBA opponents want us to see. (As previously cited, NHRBA has that report in hand).

2) IMHO, any reduction in accidents can be credited to Mother Nature:

For 2006, more rained-out weekends than I can ever remember.
For 2005, Mee'n'Mac opines fewer Winni boaters than in 2004. Or here.
For 2004, Fish & Game reported a "rainy and cool" summer.
For 2003, The state experienced a "rainy" summer.
For 2002, Our wakeup call. And dry summer. An extremely dry summer.
For 2001, FLL opined that attitude-change WILL take place:

365 days after FLL's post, letters appeared in print saying a fatality was inevitable—IF the Marine Patrol continues to allow lake anarchy. Two subsequent letters agreed—written even while unaware that a 4½-ton boat had crushed a Winnipesaukee retiree on his "small" 22-foot boat. It was not a good weekend.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...As far as some of the arguments presented by the pro-speed limit folks, the reality is we have more boats using the lake than ever..."

Citation needed. (Citations always needed at Woodsypedia.)

Originally Posted by Woodsy

"...We can argue if its because of boater education or just better vigilance..."

The best vigilance has been by NH on their own on-line Boater Education. Even though initiated and authorized by NH, they discounted their real value last year.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

...more boats, less accidents...

Woodsypedia again: citation needed.

If fewer accidents have resulted, inclement weather is a greater factor in fewer boats on the lake.

Higher gas prices would produce fewer miles traveled per boat.

Originally Posted by jrc

"...Does it make sense to hash all this over again? Too bad there isn't a short FAQ or primer to help out the newbies..."

Primer for 2002:

Angry boater: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44802
Blame MP: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44788
Blind MPs: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44792
Get serious: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44838
Out of Control: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/oldforu...mes;read=44854

Phew!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

1) Psychologists say hyper-vigilance is exhausting: add sun, waves, wakes, alcohol, and inadequate hydration, and you have a recipe for tragedy.

2) Powerboating, at least, shouldn't be physically draining. When you describe your own boat as "twitchy" at 50 mph, I'd sure hope the operator—and any boaters nearby—would be hydrated, sober, and attentive to those on the edge of control.

Your ability to correlate the mental illnesses of war veterans with operating a boat on Winnipesaukee is a bigger stretch than inferring "twitchy" means "on the edge of control".

Quoting sources from a site called "Dementia.com" explains it perfectly though...

[jrc]

APS

Reading the tragic story of that night as it unfolds is a good reminder of what the number one problem was and still is, booze.