Proposed Law

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Bear Islander...

I think Siksukr used a bad analogy... however the point remains that the LAW requires the operator of ANY vehicle, car, truck, boat, pwc, bicycle, kayak, etc to keep a proper lookout for potential hazard.


Perhaps a better analogy would be your impending (hopefully) space flight. Using your own logic, I could argue that civilian "tourist" spaceflight should be banned. Flying to the edge of space as a passenger on a rocket doesn't make you an astronaut any more than flying at Mach 2 on the Concorde makes you a fighter pilot. Why should a bunch of wealthy thrill seekers (it cost $200,000 per ride for approx 4 minutes of weightlessness) be allowed to outrageously pollute the atmosphere and quite possibly scatter toxic debris over hundreds of square miles just to satisfy thier inner adrenaline junkie? What/whom gives them the right? (Oh wait... its not a right, but a personal freedom!) Spaceflight is obviously fraught with peril to you, others flying with you and to people on the ground. There have been many people killed. One just has to look at the fateful mission of STS-107 Columbia (foam failure on launch), or the explosion they had over at Scaled Composites (Burt Rutan's Co.) that killed 3 people while doing testing of the Virgin Galactic rocket's nitrous/solid fuel propulsion system. This project hasn't flown yet and it is already killing people!

Woodsy

PS: I am just pointing out the flawed logic that Bear Islander is using to justify HB-847 and applying that same logic to ban something that he wants to do. I think civilian spaceflight is a great idea (environmental concerns aside)and I am all for it.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO DATA SUPPORTING THE THEORY THAT SPACEFLIGHT IS DANGEROUS!

Full disclosure requires me to explain that I am only considering accidents that are rocket-to-rocket, occur in the stratosphere, under moonlight, carry six passengers and involve air launched, liquid fueled rockets.

I am distressed to learn that my flight does not meet the NHRBA definition of the word astronaut. I will console myself with the knowledge it does meet NASA's.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

There is ABSOLUTELY NO DATA SUPPORTING THE THEORY THAT SPACEFLIGHT IS DANGEROUS!

Full disclosure requires me to explain that I am only considering accidents that are rocket-to-rocket, occur in the stratosphere, under moonlight, carry six passengers and involve air launched, liquid fueled rockets.

I am distressed to learn that my flight does not meet the NHRBA definition of the word astronaut. I will console myself with the knowledge it does meet NASA's.

Finally... a sense of humor! I don't care who you are thats funny!

Bear Islander... Don't you think turn about should be fair play? I figure if you want to use boating accidents that occurred all over the country and apply them to laws that you think we should have here in NH, even though here in NH we have only had 1 fatal accident in the last 5 years. I figure I should be able to use that same argument to ban you from enjoying a personal liberty!

I am not going to say your lying, but to be truthful, while you may meet Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic definition of Astronaut, your flight does NOT meet the definition of Astronaut according to the NASA website.

The pilots of the rocket may meet the definition of astronaut, (see my paragraph below) however, you as $200,000 passenger/cargo do not.

http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/astronaut_worldbook.html

"The term astronaut also has a meaning that is not connected with NASA activities. In the 1960's, the United States Department of Defense AWARDED the rating of astronaut to military and civilian pilots who FLEW aircraft higher than 50 miles (80 kilometers). Seven test pilots received this rating for flights in the X-15 rocket plane. Flights of the X-15 ended in 1968."

To think that because you can afford to to pay $200,000 you should be able to have the same title as Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, Alan Shepard, etc is absolutely absurd! It is an absolute insult to those who EARNED thier right to call themselves ASTRONAUT by being the best of the best!

Woodsy

[Bear Islander]

According to Websters I am an astronaut already.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/astronaut

I wonder what Neil, Buzz and Alan think of Lisa Nowak being called an Astronaut.

Anyway it's just a name. Doing it is what's important.

[Cal]

BI,
If you want your $200,000 thrill to last a lot longer , go buy a nice performance boat and see what it's all about

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

According to Websters I am an astronaut already.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/astronaut

I wonder what Neil, Buzz and Alan think of Lisa Nowak being called an Astronaut.

Anyway it's just a name. Doing it is what's important.

Not to split hairs.... You claimed to meet NASA's definition. Webster's Dictionary is not NASA.

Woodsy

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Not to split hairs.... You claimed to meet NASA's definition. Webster's Dictionary is not NASA.

Woodsy

Sorry, you took me to seriously. I was contrasting NHRBA and NASA. The first human in space, Yuri Gagarin, is not an astronaut by NASA's bureaucratic definition. However people like Ed Givens are, despite the fact they never flew to space.

I spent some time with a couple of your "real astronauts" last week during training and they were very gracious in using the term with reference to Virgin Galactic clients.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Sorry, you took me to seriously. I was contrasting NHRBA and NASA. The first human in space, Yuri Gagarin, is not an astronaut by NASA's bureaucratic definition. However people like Ed Givens are, despite the fact they never flew to space.

I spent some time with a couple of your "real astronauts" last week during training and they were very gracious in using the term with reference to Virgin Galactic clients.

Yuri Gagarin was not an American, but Russian and as such he would be called a Cosmonaut. I am not sure what the Russian definition translates to as I need to bone up on my Cyrillic. Gagarin also didn't pay for his trip... He was the best of thier best... Not some rich guy with $200K to burn.

Those Astronauts had better gracious in using the term used by Virgin Galactic.... they are being paid by Virgin Galactic! The reality is you are doing nothing more than buying a very expensive plane ticket to just beyond the edge of the atmosphere. I think its great that you means and the opportunity to do that, but to call yourself an Astronaut tarnishes the term.

Woodsy

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Yuri Gagarin was not an American, but Russian and as such he would be called a Cosmonaut. I am not sure what the Russian definition translates to as I need to bone up on my Cyrillic. Gagarin also didn't pay for his trip... He was the best of thier best... Not some rich guy with $200K to burn.

Those Astronauts had better gracious in using the term used by Virgin Galactic.... they are being paid by Virgin Galactic! The reality is you are doing nothing more than buying a very expensive plane ticket to just beyond the edge of the atmosphere. I think its great that you means and the opportunity to do that, but to call yourself an Astronaut tarnishes the term.

Woodsy

The term you should be trying to keep untarnished is "NASA Astronaut". As far as the general term astronaut goes the ship has already sailed. The FAA regulates commercial spaceflight and they have determined that anyone flying higher than 92.6 kilometers is an astronaut. We will be receiving FAA Astronaut Wings.

None of this has anything to do with speed limits.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The term you should be trying to keep untarnished is "NASA Astronaut". As far as the general term astronaut goes the ship has already sailed. The FAA regulates commercial spaceflight and they have determined that anyone flying higher than 92.6 kilometers is an astronaut. We will be receiving FAA Astronaut Wings.

None of this has anything to do with speed limits.

Bear Islander...

I can't believe you don't research before you post....

You are wrong yet again... well at least your wrong according to the Virgin Galactic website.

http://www.virgingalactic.com/htmlsite/index.php

http://www.virgingalactic.com/htmlsi...Picture&src=26

"Will I officially become an Astronaut?
Yes. The term Astronaut is a derived from Greek words Ajstron ("star") and nautes ("sailor"). The criteria for determining who has achieved human spaceflight vary. In the United States, people who travel above an altitude of 50 miles (80 km) are designated as astronauts. The FAI defines spaceflight as over 100 km (62 miles).Virgin Galactic passengers will receive their Virgin Galactic astronaut wings and may recieve FAA astronaut wings as well."

The key there is "may recieve". The FAA has only awarded 2 people with Commercial Astronaut Wings, and they were the pilots in command of the spacecraft. I highly doubt the FAA is going to award wings to hundreds of people just because they were wealthy enough to afford a $200,000 space ticket. Of course for $200K Virgin Galactic should give you a little gold trinket!

Have fun with those Virgin Galactic Wings!

Woodsy

[Bear Islander]

You can check the FAA site.

But I think yesterdays vote has more to do with your posts than anything else.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You can check the FAA site.

But I think yesterdays vote has more to do with your posts than anything else.

D' oh too soon to gloat Bear. Not sure I'd want to be a passenger in that craft's first, or even second or third mission.

[Silver Duck]

Bear Islander

Even though I'm not real happy with anyone associated with WinnFabs at the moment, I, for one, commend (and envy) your upcoming adventure on Virgin Galactic!

IMHO, if mankind is ever going to spread beyond this planet, space travel will need to transition into the realm of a commercial venture. You and others like you with the bucks and guts to support the earliest steps in that direction will play an important role in that transition!

Silver Duck

[DoTheMath]

Guns don't kill people - people kill people! And it's not the boat - it's the operator, plain and simple. Be it a 38' boat that can go 100mph or a 20' that can go 60mph, or a 13' Whaler that can go 25mph. All can be dangerous in the wrong hands - I am 100% opposed to the speed limit and 100% in favor of boater education and the use of COMMON SENSE! Come on people - think about it, rules in place or not - you shouldn't pass another boat (of any kind) at speed inside a safe distance - currently stated at a resonable 150'. As PM203 said - coming out of the channel I do the same thing as he does, get WELL clear of the NWZ and other boats and then get up and going. HeII - we are boating, where's the fire - what's the hurry - enjoy the lake, enjoy your boat and the people you are with and relax. And, at the end of the day - if I want to head out to the broads and rip it up for a quick blast at speed - so-be-it! I see FAR MORE bone-head moves over the course of a summer by people in "family" boats - bow-riders and cruisers - than I do in "performance boats". You can't judge a whole group (or a "cult" as APS referred to us as... ) by one individual who made a poor choice one night! (operator error - not the boats fault). Water on the water, beer on the pier - be smart, use your head and we'll all be better off for it.

[SS-194]

Would'nt it be nice if we could teach COMMON SENSE. If everyone had common sense would we need any laws at all? I'am sorry but bone heads come in every size boat out there. But I would be more afraid of one going 100 mph than one going 25 mph. Can you tell me why anyone has to go that fast? I don't need a law to tell me not to drive drunk that is "COMMON SENSE" but hello lots of people drive drunk. So until everyone passes the common sense test i think we need some laws to help keep the bone heads in check. How can it hurt?

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by SS-194

I don't need a law to tell me not to drive drunk that is "COMMON SENSE" but hello lots of people drive drunk. So until everyone passes the common sense test i think we need some laws to help keep the bone heads in check. How can it hurt?

You need to reread your own post.You just said we you don't need a law to tell you not to drive drunk but lots do anyway and then imply that speed limits will stop fast boats.You just countered your own argument.

[SS-194]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

You need to reread your own post.You just said we you don't need a law to tell you not to drive drunk but lots do anyway and then imply that speed limits will stop fast boats.You just countered your own argument.

The point is you can't teach common sense. So we do need laws. Of course laws are not 100 %. But something is better than nothing. Also no one has explained to me why anyone has to go 100mph on a small body of water. And yes at 100mph Winnipesaukee is very small. One great thing about N.H. is we have a coast line with a huge ocean GO FOR IT.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by SS-194

Would'nt it be nice if we could teach COMMON SENSE. If everyone had common sense would we need any laws at all? I'am sorry but bone heads come in every size boat out there. But I would be more afraid of one going 100 mph than one going 25 mph. Can you tell me why anyone has to go that fast? I don't need a law to tell me not to drive drunk that is "COMMON SENSE" but hello lots of people drive drunk. So until everyone passes the common sense test i think we need some laws to help keep the bone heads in check. How can it hurt?

Sorry - but by "boneheads" - whom would you be referring to!? The guy in the 40' cruiser plowing along at 15 mph and letting up a HUGE wake resulting in all kinds of near-by vessel and / or shore-line damage!? (yep, see it all the time). Or the person out in the kayak or row boat at night, paddling along at 3 mph, with no lights thinking this is safe and ok!? Oh, wait - maybe you mean the woman driving the 23' bowrider leaving the channel and mashing the throttle forward when there are 2 or 3 other boats within 50' of her!? Yep, I have seen all of this stuff - live and in person - and it just blows my mind. I agree - common sense can't be taught, but I still don't see how a speed limit will cure anything, esp. a "problem" that doesn't exist! Last time I checked - the most recent "bone head" move on the lake with catastrophic results occurred at 28 mph!?!? Let's enforce the laws we have that will really make a difference - not institute new ones that will just tax the current system and fix nothing!

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

Guns don't kill people - people kill people! And it's not the boat - it's the operator, plain and simple. Be it a 38' boat that can go 100mph or a 20' that can go 60mph, or a 13' Whaler that can go 25mph. All can be dangerous in the wrong hands - I am 100% opposed to the speed limit and 100% in favor of boater education and the use of COMMON SENSE! Come on people - think about it, rules in place or not - you shouldn't pass another boat (of any kind) at speed inside a safe distance - currently stated at a resonable 150'. As PM203 said - coming out of the channel I do the same thing as he does, get WELL clear of the NWZ and other boats and then get up and going. HeII - we are boating, where's the fire - what's the hurry - enjoy the lake, enjoy your boat and the people you are with and relax. And, at the end of the day - if I want to head out to the broads and rip it up for a quick blast at speed - so-be-it! I see FAR MORE bone-head moves over the course of a summer by people in "family" boats - bow-riders and cruisers - than I do in "performance boats". You can't judge a whole group (or a "cult" as APS referred to us as... ) by one individual who made a poor choice one night! (operator error - not the boats fault). Water on the water, beer on the pier - be smart, use your head and we'll all be better off for it.

This post is DEAD ON! Seriously this should be the mantra for the lake. Slow down and enjoy yourselves. However, I do not begrudge those of you who want to rip it across the broads for a little kick. I don't have a fast boat but I've been in a few and it is a real kick. All the times I've been in them I've found the operators to be among the best and most considerate boaters.

[Rose]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I wonder what Neil, Buzz and Alan think of Lisa Nowak being called an Astronaut.

From the Wiki entry for Lisa Nowak

"...received a BS degree in aerospace engineering from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1985. Nowak received a Master of Science degree in aeronautical engineering, and a degree in aeronautical and astronautical engineering in 1992 from the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California."

"Nowak received her commission from the U.S. Navy in 1985, and became a naval flight officer in 1987. After her postgraduate studies, Nowak entered Aerospace Engineering Duty and the U.S. Naval Test Pilot School. She logged over 1,500 hours of flight in over 30 different aircraft during her career in the Navy, and obtained the rank of captain."

"Nowak was selected to be an astronaut in 1996 and entered the NASA Astronaut Corps at Johnson Space Center in August of that year. She qualified as a mission specialist in robotics, and was assigned to mission STS-118. After schedule changes, she instead went into space on July 4, 2006 as a member of the STS-121 crew to the International Space Station. Nowak served as mission flight engineer, operated the shuttle's robotic arm during several spacewalks, and logged almost 13 days in space."

It's highly likely that Neil, Buzz and Alan take no issue with her being called an astronaut based on her credentials...I doubt anyone here knows how her personal problems may have affected their opinion of what kind of astronaut she was or what kind of person she is.