Hb 847 Meeting In Concord.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

What evidence do you have that the proponents did this survey?

Do you have evidence that the proponents paid for this survey as you claim?

http://www.winnfabs.com/StatewidePoll.htm

ARG did the survey and they do not work for free.

WINNSFABS is using the data.

Who else would have paid for it??

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it is a duck!!


R2B

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

http://www.winnfabs.com/StatewidePoll.htm

ARG did the survey and they do not work for free.

WINNSFABS is using the data.

Who else would have paid for it??

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it is a duck!!


R2B

Sounds like pretty solid evidence to me! Hard to deny that.

[Just Sold]

News Article in Fosters today:

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...805/-1/CITNEWS

[Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Sounds like pretty solid evidence to me! Hard to deny that.

If you call that "solid" evidence, please don't go out on the lake ice.






And from a REPUBLICAN Representative in a Winnipesaukee town.
Rep. Alida Mill ham, R-Gilford, agreed, saying that New Hampshire lawmakers are always hesitant to pass laws that impact people's freedoms, but she said certain issues reach a "tipping point" where action is necessary.

"I think New Hampshire is at that point," said Millham.

Millham said she has had two close calls while boating on the lake where speed played a part in a safety concern.

Can anyone explain why this boating Legislators opinion does not count?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Islander

..."I think New Hampshire is at that point," said Millham.

Millham said she has had two close calls while boating on the lake where speed played a part in a safety concern.[/COLOR]

Can anyone explain why this boating Senators opinion does not count?

I can.

She is not a Senator, she is a member of the House from Belknap County (Republican from Gilford).

The House has already had its say....

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Skip

I can.

She is not a Senator, she is a member of the House from Belknap County (Republican from Gil ford).

The House has already had its say....

She is a republican that is familiar with the lake. Therefore she must be hiding a secret hatred of performance boats. It can't really be about safety.

Why no correction about the American Research Group?

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Islander

...Why no correction about the American Research Group?...

I've never placed much stock in what "Dick" Bennett and his Group has had to say....

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Islander

She is a republican that is familiar with the lake. Therefore she must be hiding a secret hatred of performance boats. It can't really be about safety.

The term RINO jumped into my thoughts....

Being a sponsor of the Bill might explain her wordage...

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Islander

And from a REPUBLICAN Representative in a Winnipesaukee town.
Rep. Alida Mill ham, R-Gilford, agreed, saying that New Hampshire lawmakers are always hesitant to pass laws that impact people's freedoms, but she said certain issues reach a "tipping point" where action is necessary.

"I think New Hampshire is at that point," said Millham.

Millham said she has had two close calls while boating on the lake where speed played a part in a safety concern.

Can anyone explain why this boating Legislators opinion does not count?

I was there, she had no idea what she was saying. She never said the word speeding, she said "excessive speed" twice. Which again can be 10 MPH when two vessels are within 150' of each other and more than likely what her two close calls were. I could almost read that in her testimony. When the chairman asked her what this "tipping point" was, she fumbled for words and threw a very incoherent sentence and explanation together. Also I don't have to count her opinion, she doesn't represent me.

Those who were in favor of HB847 kept using the phrase "excessive speed" to make their points and in some cases very sheepishly as if to make us believe excessive speed means over 45 MPH when in fact it's doesn't

[Islander]

Originally Posted by EricP

I was there, she had no idea what she was saying. She never said the word speeding, she said "excessive speed" twice. Which again can be 10 MPH when two vessels are within 150' of each other and more than likely what her two close calls were. I could almost read that in her testimony. When the chairman asked her what this "tipping point" was, she fumbled for words and threw a very incoherent sentence and explanation together. Also I don't have to count her opinion, she doesn't represent me.

Those who were in favor of HBO kept using the phrase "excessive speed" to make their points and in some cases very sheepishly as if to make us believe excessive speed means over 45 MPH when in fact it's doesn't

That was a direct quote from the article Just Sold posted.

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...805/-1/CITNEWS

Hazelnut - The wheels are coming off the opposition bus amid false accusations about WinnFABS and you come up with "crumbling"? You are losing touch, wait for the vote.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Islander

That was a direct quote from the article Just Sold posted.

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll...805/-1/CITNEWS

The article is not accurate, he apparently used the word "speed" instead of "excessive speed", which are effectively the same thing anyway, but exactly what she said. I wonder if the hearing is recorded and if we can get copies of it, I know what she said because it annoyed me. I'll say it again and ask you to address this comment, a simple agree or disagree is all that is required: "10 MPH is excessive speed when within 150' of pretty much anything else out there"

There is no way you can disgree with that statement and IMHO is really what her problem was at whatever incidents happened. Had those incidents she cited happened with boats going over 45 MPH she would have said speeding, or traveling over 45 MPH, or something to that affect, but she didn't and I suggest that is because it was really 150' violations and she was spinning them into the speed limit arguement. I hardly think a speed limit would have affected those situations.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Islander

If you call that "solid" evidence, please don't go out on the lake ice.

And from a REPUBLICAN Representative in a Winnipesaukee town.
Rep. Alida Mill ham, R-Gilford, agreed, saying that New Hampshire lawmakers are always hesitant to pass laws that impact people's freedoms, but she said certain issues reach a "tipping point" where action is necessary.

"I think New Hampshire is at that point," said Millham.

Millham said she has had two close calls while boating on the lake where speed played a part in a safety concern.

Can anyone explain why this boating Legislators opinion does not count?

So then, please enlighten us with who actually ordered and paid for the survey?

Actual speed is a matter of opinion unless being measured electronically. Not everyone can look at a vessel under way and estimate with a fair level of accuracy at what speed it is traveling. "Speed played a part in safety" does not mean that a boat was necessarily speeding. Probably an infringement of the 150' rule.

Spin away...

[Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

So then, please enlighten us with who actually ordered and paid for the survey?

Actual speed is a matter of opinion unless being measured electronically. Not everyone can look at a vessel under way and estimate with a fair level of accuracy at what speed it is traveling. "Speed played a part in safety" does not mean that a boat was necessarily speeding. Probably an infringement of the 150' rule.

Spin away...

I don't know who paid for the poll. I have been told the American Research Group did it on their own. Perhaps you guys should known the answer before you blame WinnFABS.

I don't know the details behind the representatives encounters on the lake. But no matter what happened, one of our elected leaders thinks it's a problem that needs to be addressed.

[hazelnut]

Wow kinda feels like it's crumbling for the supporters side. Hope so Who knows until the votes are counted though. Does anyone know when the official voe takes place?

[Skip]

While the current legislation we are discussing is not specifically mentioned in this op-ed piece, I thought that this particular opinion is both timely and relevant to the discussion at hand.

Charlie Arlinghause in this morning's Union Leader.

[chase1]

Originally Posted by Islander

If you call that "solid" evidence, please don't go out on the lake ice.

And from a REPUBLICAN Representative in a Winnipesaukee town.
Rep. Alida Mill ham, R-Gilford, agreed, saying that New Hampshire lawmakers are always hesitant to pass laws that impact people's freedoms, but she said certain issues reach a "tipping point" where action is necessary.

"I think New Hampshire is at that point," said Millham.

Millham said she has had two close calls while boating on the lake where speed played a part in a safety concern.

Can anyone explain why this boating Legislators opinion does not count?

I thought she first stated that she had been boating on the Lake for 56 yrs or something to that effect. Two close calls in 56 yrs is nothing that concerns me. Sorry............who is to say she was not at fault in those situations.

Chase1

[ApS]

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...APS - duuuuude, looks like you have no surfing experience either, huh!?! ..."

Several forum members know that my younger years were spent at Lanakai Beach, Oahu, Hawaii—YES, I have surfing experience. (Just no "duuuuude" experience)

Boaters in the mix were not a problem—but they are now—and are being banned in several places.

Originally Posted by EricP

"...I have had close calls on my PWCs at slow speeds and none with boats at high speeds. All were 150' infractions..."

PWCs have close calls too? Now empathize with the boater who doesn't have an engine in order to swerve. Sailboats and kayaks can't swerve.

BTW, All collisions are 150' infractions: If your PWC is damaged and needs less than $2000 to repair, a report to NHMP is unnecessary. (A recent change for NH boaters—upped from $500).

...but the statistic is lost: The Coast Guard estimates that only 10% of non-fatal collision reports make it to their desk.

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

"...The NH general population...should stay away from micromanagement of how to drive a boat - especially since the rules already define safe boating.

Managing boaters traveling at 70 to 130+ is not micromanaging: it's managing protected inland waters from the criss-crossing of boats traveling at wide-open (and insane) speeds. IMHO.

Originally Posted by chipj29

"...Except for when the jet ski was riderless going down the wave..."

Hmmm...riderless?

The quantity of "incidents" with riderless and overpowered 4½-ton boats are legion. Long Lake's "driver-free ride" last year endangered lake dwellers 130 feet up from the shoreline. (Not a record, BTW...500 feet is a recent record.)

Originally Posted by EricP

"...this is the first year that boating certification is mandatory so I think we should let it bake...,"

1) Director Barrett's "Temporary Speed Limit" soothed the waters last season.

2) Certification with reciprocity is deeply flawed for New Hampshire—and a two year sunset provision is a good test, and Not Forever.

3) I think the governor will sign it. Who would want the ramifications of the next incident on his hands?

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Several forum members know that my younger years were spent at Lanakai Beach, Oahu, Hawaii—YES, I have surfing experience. (Just no "duuuuude" experience)

Boaters in the mix were not a problem—but they are now—and are being banned in several places.


PWCs have close calls too? Now empathize with the boater who doesn't have an engine in order to swerve. Sailboats and kayaks can't swerve.

BTW, All collisions are 150' infractions: If your PWC is damaged and needs less than $2000 to repair, a report to NHMP is unnecessary. (A recent change for NH boaters—upped from $500).

...but the statistic is lost: The Coast Guard estimates that only 10% of non-fatal collision reports make it to their desk.


Managing boaters traveling at 70 to 130+ is not micromanaging: it's managing protected inland waters from the criss-crossing of boats traveling at wide-open (and insane) speeds. IMHO.


Hmmm...riderless?

The quantity of "incidents" with riderless and overpowered 4½-ton boats are legion. Long Lake's "driver-free ride" last year endangered lake dwellers 130 feet up from the shoreline. (Not a record, BTW...500 feet is a recent record.)
How many "riderless" incidents have there been on Winnipesaukee? You posted a picture of a riderless jet ski going down the face of a 12 foot wave. What does that have to do with a speed limit on Lake Winni?
1) Director Barrett's "Temporary Speed Limit" soothed the waters last season.

2) Certification with reciprocity is deeply flawed for New Hampshire—and a two year sunset provision is a good test, and Not Forever.

3) I think the governor will sign it. Who would want the ramifications of the next incident on his hands?

The governor has stated in the past that he will not sign it.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chipj29

The governor has stated in the past that he will not sign it.

That is not what the Governor said.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

That is not what the Governor said.

What has he said?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chipj29

What has he said?

"MANCHESTER, N.H. -- Gov. John Lynch said Thursday that he's not sure he'd sign a plan to set overall boat speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee

The House on Wednesday approved setting speed limits for a two-year trial period. The bill that now goes to the Senate would set limits of 45 mph during the day and 25 mph at night.

Speaking on WGIR, Lynch said he doesn't think overall boat speeds are the most egregious problem on Lake Winnipesaukee. He said there are other problems, such as boats going too fast while too close to other boats or to shore.

He said he would consider the proposed limit if it gets to his desk."

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

"MANCHESTER, N.H. -- Gov. John Lynch said Thursday that he's not sure he'd sign a plan to set overall boat speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee

The House on Wednesday approved setting speed limits for a two-year trial period. The bill that now goes to the Senate would set limits of 45 mph during the day and 25 mph at night.

Speaking on WGIR, Lynch said he doesn't think overall boat speeds are the most egregious problem on Lake Winnipesaukee. He said there are other problems, such as boats going too fast while too close to other boats or to shore.

He said he would consider the proposed limit if it gets to his desk."

Sorry, I was mistaken. He certainly didn't specifically say he would not sign it. However, this doesn't sound like he is too confident that he would sign it..."Gov. John Lynch said Thursday that he's not sure he'd sign a plan to set overall boat speed limits on Lake Winnipesaukee".

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by article

Speaking on WGIR, Lynch said he doesn't think overall boat speeds are the most egregious problem on Lake Winnipesaukee. He said there are other problems, such as boats going too fast while too close to other boats or to shore.

Glad to hear that there is some common sense in Concord.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chmeeee

Glad to hear that there is some common sense in Concord.

Does that hold even if he signs it?

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Does that hold even if he signs it?

Not sure why he'd sign a speed limit bill when he himself says that "speed is not the problem..."

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chmeeee

Not sure why he'd sign a speed limit bill when he himself says that "speed is not the problem..."

That was not the question. What if he does sign it?

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

That was not the question. What if he does sign it?

Then there is no common sense in Concord. Shesh that wasn't hard to figure out.

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Then there is no common sense in Concord. Shesh that wasn't hard to figure out.

^^ What he said.

[Airwaves]

So, beyond Bear Islander, no member of the speed limit crowd has commented on my proposal at a compromise, adopt Rule 6.

The question has been raised whether Governor Lynch will sign the bill or not, I don't know. Politics is a funny thing.

But to come back to previous posts;

Originally posted by APS
Managing boaters traveling at 70 to 130+ is not micromanaging: it's managing protected inland waters from the criss-crossing of boats traveling at wide-open (and insane) speeds. IMHO.

Here again, the New Hampshire Marine Patrol research, conducted on Lake Winnipesaukee (in New Hampshire just so that you don't have to go searching far and wide) did not show that to be true. It showed that fewer than 1 percent of the boats clocked by radar, done in much the same way the Marine Patrol will conduct radar posts if this bill becomes law, were traveling over 45 and as I recall off the top of my head the highest speed recorded was in the low 60's.

Originally posted by Evenstar:
First Skip digs up something that happened 25 years ago, which has nothing at all to do with the speed limit. I'm not even sure what you're getting at, other than to use this tragedy to poke fun at me.

I don't think, although I can't speak for everyone, that people are poking fun at you, just your thought process. At the same time you lament a kayak accident from 25 years ago being dragged up, the speed limit crowd points to an accident involving a Cigarette Boat nearly 40 years ago!

So an accident 25 years ago is not germain, but one 40 years ago is? Neither accident is relavent and that was the point.

Originally posted by APS:

1) Director Barrett's "Temporary Speed Limit" soothed the waters last season.

2) Certification with reciprocity is deeply flawed for New Hampshire—and a two year sunset provision is a good test, and Not Forever.

3) I think the governor will sign it. Who would want the ramifications of the next incident on his hands?

1) Director Barrett's research was just that, research. Bear Islander openly accused the Marine Patrol of fudging the results of that research. I disagree! The Marine Patrol conducted the research in the same way that I expect they will set up radar posts if this bill becomes law. I also expect the same results because speed is not a problem on Lake Winnipesaukee

2) This is the first year all powerboaters in New Hampshire are required to have a NASBLA approved safe boating certificate.
As Evenstar's former Coast Guard Station Commander from Florida wrote, paraphrasing here, As boater education increases, accidents decrease. Lake Winnipesaukee has one of the best safety records in the area, if not the best! Speed has not been blamed in any accident on Winnipesaukee in years! So since this is the first year safe boating certificates are required for all powerboaters, this would be the time for the two year "sunset test"!

In the 1970's when the Cigarette Boat accident in Gilford happend (still waiting for any kind of a link or PDF file from a newspaper article) nothing was required, as a matter of fact I believe there was still an on the water event involving sailboats going from point to point, landing on town docks, going to a bar, throwing back a drink, then going to the next point race. I don't recall what they called it but alcohol and driving, on land and on water, were not looked upon as a bad thing back in those days! Times have changed, and for the better I might add!


3) Will Governor Lynch sign this bill if it's approved? That's the wildcard. I don't know the inside politics of NH so I can only speculate on two points.

A. Is the bill necessary? Even Governor Lynch questions the need.
B. The bill would require either additional funding for the Marine Patrol or cutback in the services currently provided, either way I doubt Governor Lynch would approve.

So the wildcard is politics and on that point I don't know.

[Neanderthal Thunder]

jrc wrote:

You think we should have a law in place that's sole purpose is to provide the police an opportunity to violate the 4th amendent?

Weren't you surprised to see in the transcript that Skip provided, that a police officer saw Littlefield's condition on land? Nothing happened.

Even roadblocks were found legal under the 4th Amendment by the US Supreme Court. A Winni stop could be intended for a written warning, while allowing the officer to observe the boater's ability to function.

To a layperson, this thread's defense of a drunk boater by overserving, not on plane, 3 mph, etc., makes the speed limit appear to be more urgently needed, not less. Few drunk arrests are recorded on NH waters statewide, much less Winni. Even the most famous Winni drunk doesn't have a BWI on his rap sheet. A night speed limit gives law enforcement the only tool in the drawer against overserved, or just plain drunk, Winni boaters.

It was a drunk who decided that 28 mph was the speed that served his needs that night. Now we've decided that the boating drunks who think their going slow shouldn't be in charge of making those decisions. Drivers who aren't thinking at all, in the case of Long Lake, definately won't be trailering to a lake with a night speed limit.

[Bear Islander]

If Lynch refuses to sign I will have even more respect for him. It would be a gutsy thing for him to do.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If Lynch refuses to sign I will have even more respect for him. It would be a gutsy thing for him to do.

Not sure what you mean? Are you referring to the executive manuever where the gov doesn't sign it, doesn't veto it, but just lets it sit on his desk for ten days, and thus becomes a passed law without his signature.

There must be a political name for that legislative sidestep. "Whoopsie, yes it is now law, but don't blame me because I did not sign it."

[Grady223]

When is the bill to go for a Senate vote?

[Wolfeboro_Baja]

Originally Posted by Grady223

When is the bill to go for a Senate vote?

One way would be to keep an eye on the most recent Senate calendar (NOT the journal) at this link, http://gencourt.state.nh.us/scaljourns/.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

...but the statistic is lost: The Coast Guard estimates that only 10% of non-fatal collision reports make it to their desk.

Wh is this? Because damages ranging between $500-$2000 are not serious and certainly nothing that a speed limit will prevent. Anything serious would be reported, a boat hitting a rock and not sinking or a few boats bumping at a dock are of no concern to the CG.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...Wh is this? Because damages ranging between $500-$2000 are not serious and certainly nothing that a speed limit will prevent..."

If you ran over any one of my four sailboats (each not reaching a value of $2000)—and it sank out of sight forever—I would not need to report that loss to the NHMP/Coast Guard. (If the boat's occupants remained unkilled, uncrushed, and undrowned, that is.)

Conversely, if your $2200 purple-and-yellow-plastic graphics decal got damaged in the collision, you'd need to file a report. (You have 24-hours to report any of the boat's occupants killed, crushed, or drowned).

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...Anything serious would be reported, a boat hitting a rock and not sinking or a few boats bumping at a dock are of no concern to the CG..."

A boat hitting a rock is not a collision: dock bumps seldom do $2000 damage.

Rock-striking would be "running aground" or "striking a fixed object". Each is a separate category in CG statistics, and which receive full Coast Guard statistical attention IF reported to the NHMP.

New Hampshire recorded only two full-season BUIs and two "Running Agrounds" in recent years—statewide!

California, for example, still requires reports of >$500 damage, which makes California "look" more hazardous to boaters.

Conversely, New Hampshire reports so few Winnipesaukee damage reports—the threshold being $2000—it instantly assumes a "statistically safer" lake over California's lakes.

Pret-t-y smart of our tourist-state's Legislators, huh?

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Several forum members know that my younger years were spent at Lanakai Beach, Oahu, Hawaii—YES, I have surfing experience. (Just no "duuuuude" experience)

Er - first off it's Lanikai Beach in O'ahu - and just because you've been to the North Pole, doesn't make you Santa Claus.

I've been to more than one of the Hawaiian islands but I don't claim to be to be King Kamehameha!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

http://www.winnfabs.com/StatewidePoll.htm

ARG did the survey and they do not work for free.

WINNSFABS is using the data.

Who else would have paid for it??

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it is a duck!!


R2B

It's very easy to deny evidence that is not evidence at all.

What makes you believe that the ARG does not work for free?

Yes, WinnFABS is using the data. Would the opposition use the data if it supported their position?

The ARG has been taking what they call the "New Hampshire Poll" on current events, quarterly for more than 30 years. It is my understanding that the speed limit questions were part of that poll. If there is evidence to the contrary I would appreciate someone producing it.

I have quoted that study many times, but would not have done so if I thought it was paid for by one side.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

...What makes you believe that the ARG does not work for free?...

Almost overlooked this.

Anyway, the poll was commissioned and paid for by the NH Lakes Association, a supporter of WINNFABS and a solid proponent of speed limit legislation:



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: Nancy Christie,
NH Lakes Association
(603) 226-0299


NEW STATEWIDE POLL INDICATES STRONG SUPPORT FOR 45 MPH DAYTIME /25 MPH
NIGHTTIME SPEED LIMITS ON STATE’S PUBLIC WATERS

Concord, NH (February 16, 2006) – According to a recent poll of New Hampshire
registered voters, 63 percent favor a state law that would place a 45 mph
daytime and a 25 mph nighttime speed limit on all inland public waters – lakes,
ponds and rivers. Only 9% opposed the idea. The study was commissioned by
the New Hampshire Lakes Association, a statewide, non-profit organization whose
mission is to protect the Public Trust, and conducted by the American Research
Group of Manchester, NH......

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Skip

Almost overlooked this.

Anyway, the poll was commissioned and paid for by the NH Lakes Association, a supporter of WINNFABS and a solid proponent of speed limit legislation:



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: Nancy Christie,
NH Lakes Association
(603) 226-0299


NEW STATEWIDE POLL INDICATES STRONG SUPPORT FOR 45 MPH DAYTIME /25 MPH
NIGHTTIME SPEED LIMITS ON STATE’S PUBLIC WATERS

Concord, NH (February 16, 2006) – According to a recent poll of New Hampshire
registered voters, 63 percent favor a state law that would place a 45 mph
daytime and a 25 mph nighttime speed limit on all inland public waters – lakes,
ponds and rivers. Only 9% opposed the idea. The study was commissioned by
the New Hampshire Lakes Association, a statewide, non-profit organization whose
mission is to protect the Public Trust, and conducted by the American Research
Group of Manchester, NH......

Ya but Skip, it doesn't specifically say that they paid for the poll...
More spin coming in T-minus 3....2....1....

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Skip

Almost overlooked this.

Anyway, the poll was commissioned and paid for by the NH Lakes Association, a supporter of WINNFABS and a solid proponent of speed limit legislation:



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: Nancy Christie,
NH Lakes Association
(603) 226-0299


NEW STATEWIDE POLL INDICATES STRONG SUPPORT FOR 45 MPH DAYTIME /25 MPH
NIGHTTIME SPEED LIMITS ON STATE’S PUBLIC WATERS

Concord, NH (February 16, 2006) – According to a recent poll of New Hampshire
registered voters, 63 percent favor a state law that would place a 45 mph
daytime and a 25 mph nighttime speed limit on all inland public waters – lakes,
ponds and rivers. Only 9% opposed the idea. The study was commissioned by
the New Hampshire Lakes Association, a statewide, non-profit organization whose
mission is to protect the Public Trust, and conducted by the Amknerican Research
Group of Manchester, NH......

Thanks Skip, so it was NOT WinnFABS that paid for the study! Nice how you try and tar with the same brush, obviously the NHLA and WinnFABS are not the same, not even in the same ballpark. However if you support speed limits you must be part of the same "vast left wing conspiracy".

However from the dates that looks like the second study done in 2006. Who paid for the "New Hampshire Poll" done in the spring of 2005?

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Thanks Skip. Glad you got to the bottom of that. I can connect the dots and follow the $$ trail. Chipj29, you are right, it does not claim WinnFabs paid for the poll but others can connect the dots too. The $$ might not make any difference if the poll is not biased.

It's been explained before but let me try to explain it this way:

If my dear elderly aunt were still alive (her family were long time residents of Manchester) she might have been one of those polled. She would have been misled and answered the questions under false assumptions. The poll taker would probably say who he was and that he was conducting a telephone poll.

Then he starts the poll. The bias starts with the set up statement - it is not properly worded

The Script for the poll wording starts:

"Do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats on large lakes in New Hampshire?"

(so there is no confusion, I have stopped quoting and now present my brief summary of the 4 questions and my comments)

That set-up makes it sound like there are NO speed limits on the lake(s) and nothing in the law about reasonable speeds or the 150' law. Only a small percentage of those polled might know what is already in place. Laws are already in place about reasonable speed. What is Marine Patrol having trouble enforcing and how would a 45/25 speed limits help the MP? Not mentioned to those polled.

There were 3 answer choices: Favor, Oppose, Undecided.

The 4 questions all specify a 45mph day and 25 mph night speed limit for boats. The questions:
Do you favor a 45/25 limit? Do you BELIEVE 45/25 will make lakes safer, make lakes more enjoyable, help MP enforce boating laws.

My elderly aunt would sure want safer and friendlier lakes. Help Marine Patrol enforce the law, who wouldn't want that? Sure she would tend to FAVOR the best sounding of the ONLY CHOICES PRESENTED to her. She wouldn't know that there were already speed limits and laws regarding reasonable speed on the big lake.

Obviously do you favor or oppose a law that would impose speed limits for boats MUST mean that speed is not currently addressed. A FALSE assumption to start with. It would HELP the Marine Patrol to impose 45/25 mph speed limits. Did the MP ever say they were in need of this limit to "help" them or is this all an attempt at adding bias to the response to the poll questions?

The funding, the wording - is this really an unbiased poll?

Thanks again Skip. And Chipj, I'm gonna get dizzy from all the upcoming spinning

Sigh... let them vote already and get this over with!

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

Sigh... let them vote already and get this over with!

On that, I think we ALL agree!!

[Bear Islander]

Hi Skip

Good to see we have finally sucked you into the fight!

My post referred to the New Hampshire Poll taken in June 2005. This is the one that started all the POLL controversy. I see you have found that the later poll with more questions was ordered by NHLA.

Do you know if the New Hampshire Poll was paid for? It looks like it is part of their ongoing public opinion polls.

"The New Hampshire Poll is an independent poll that has surveyed New Hampshire residents on social, political, and economic issues on a regular basis since 1976"

They say it is "independent" to my way of thinking that means not paid for by one side. Do you think this is not true?

http://americanresearchgroup.com/nhpoll/

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Hi Skip

Good to see we have finally sucked you into the fight!

My post referred to the New Hampshire Poll taken in June 2005. This is the one that started all the POLL controversy. I see you have found that the later poll with more questions was ordered by NHLA.

Do you know if the New Hampshire Poll was paid for? It looks like it is part of their ongoing public opinion polls.

"The New Hampshire Poll is an independent poll that has surveyed New Hampshire residents on social, political, and economic issues on a regular basis since 1976"

They say it is "independent" to my way of thinking that means not paid for by one side. Do you think this is not true?

http://americanresearchgroup.com/nhpoll/

So you think that they just did this poll for the heck of it? It does not fit into their regular topics. We already found who asked for it!

Quarterly results:
NH Business Conditions
Personal Finances
NH/US in a Recession
Lynch Job Ratings
Bush Job Ratings in NH

Non-quarterly surveys:
Shaheen/Sununu
Guinta/Lynch
4-Year Term
Civil Unions
Smoking Ban
Boat Speed Limits
Income Tax
Kelo Amendment
2004 Democratic Tracking
2004 Democratic Presidential Preference
December 1976

Return to ARG home

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

So you think that they just did this poll for the heck of it? It does not fit into their regular topics. We already found who asked for it!

Quarterly results:
NH Business Conditions
Personal Finances
NH/US in a Recession
Lynch Job Ratings
Bush Job Ratings in NH

Non-quarterly surveys:
Shaheen/Sununu
Guinta/Lynch
4-Year Term
Civil Unions
Smoking Ban
Boat Speed Limits
Income Tax
Kelo Amendment
2004 Democratic Tracking
2004 Democratic Presidential Preference
December 1976

Return to ARG home

Skip found a different poll done a year later.

And Yes, I believe the "New Hampshire Poll" is done as part of their ongoing independent surveys.

In any event a responsible person would know the answer BEFORE posting that it was WinnFABS. If you post without knowing and later find out your guess was right that is luck, not vindication.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Skip found a different poll done a year later.

And Yes, I believe the "New Hampshire Poll" is done as part of their ongoing independent surveys.

In any event a responsible person would know the answer BEFORE posting that it was WinnFABS. If you post without knowing and later find out your guess was right that is luck, not vindication.

Come on BI!

Your side is doing all it can to buy a law that restricts the personal freedom of a group of people that your side does not want on the lake. That is clearly what you folks are doing through your very-well financed, professional campaign.

Your side has stooped to no limit in doing this. Baised surveys, misinformation about things on other lakes in other states that do not have our 150' rule and photos that create false messages are what you folks are all about. To me, your activities are very un-American and completely shameless. You all should be thinking about your devious role in a free society.

This has just been completely proven by many posters who care about freedom and the rights of American citizens who like to boat on a lake that your side thinks they own.

Your recent post shows the behavior of a child that just got caught with his or her hand in the cookie jar.

R2B

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

Come on BI!

Your side is doing all it can to buy a law that restricts the personal freedom of a group of people that your side does not want on the lake. That is clearly what you folks are doing through your very-well financed, professional campaign.

Your side has stooped to no limit in doing this. Baised surveys, misinformation about things on other lakes in other states that do not have our 150' rule and photos that create false messages are what you folks are all about. To me, your activities are very un-American and completely shameless. You all should be thinking about your devious role in a free society.

This has just been completely proven by many posters who care about freedom and the rights of American citizens who like to boat on a lake that your side thinks they own.

Your recent post shows the behavior of a child that just got caught with his or her hand in the cookie jar.

R2B

I don't belong to a "side". I am just me, not a member of any movement.

Both sides can get carried away in heated argument. If you don't like what WinnFABS has done complain to them or complain about them. I am only responsible for me. I disagree with WinnFABS on some key points, in general I support what they do, speed limits.

You have made another claim "well financed" I think you are guessing again. Financed by who? The deep pockets seem to be on your side of the argument. I can tell you I have not seen a penny.

Perhaps when this is all over you will consider that a person can believe in freedom, America AND speed limits.

[Island Lover]

Hi Resident 2B

Will you please try and make your posts less personal.

[Resident 2B]

BI,

I have no problem with any speed limit law that is or was passed after careful and thoughtful consideration with proponents and opponents presenting honest and fair arguments. The policing power's opinion should also be given consideration when passing any law.

It is not the law itself that got me so involved in this discussion, it is the tactics of the proponents, which are clearly the over-the-line in so many areas in this discussion.

I would guess this law has a better than 50% chance of being enacted, but the tactics used by the proponents to get the job done is full of lies, misinformation and unfairly biased surveys. This will be remembered by many in a lasting impression of unfair advantage.

The misinformation was so bad that I felt I had to point these things out. I know others feel the same. I remain firm in my position that the tactics used by the porponents are tactics from the McCarthy era of our history and as such are un-American and have no place in a great state who's motto is "Live Free or Die".

That is all from me on this subject. Enough is enough!

Back to discussions on weather and things on the lake that make me love this place.

Best regards,

R2B

[Bear Islander]

A little follow up on the WinnFABS=NHLA theory. Below are some laws the NHLA have initiated. At the moment they are working on...

Requiring notification of a failed septic system at a purchase and sale agreement of waterfront property.

You may agree or disagree with some of their initiatives, however it seems clear they are a major force in improving our lakes.



NH LAKES initiated the following legislation:

Commission to study the leasing of state-owned shorefront property (2007)

Licensing rental agents of motorized watercraft (2007)

Permanent funding beginning in 2008 for milfoil prevention and research program (2006)

The Volunteer Lake Assessment Program (VLAP) and Coordinator position created in statute (2005)

Comprehensive Shoreland Protection Act Commission (2005)

The 'Render Assistance' Amendment to Conduct - After - An - Accident (2004)

Milfoil Prevention & Research Grant Program (2002)

Enhanced Comprehensive Shoreland Protection Act (2002)

Boater Safety (2000)

Increased Funding for Marine Patrol (1999)

Lead Sinker Bill (1998)

Funding for the Comprehensive Shoreland Protection Act (1994)

Low Phosphate Household Detergents (1994)

[DoTheMath]

Ok, so - how about a show of hands... who was there on Monday - at the State House - for the hearing? I was - I sat through the whole thing, listened to both sides and found everyone's testimony to be lucid and (for the most part) well thought out. At one point - one of the members of the Transportation Comm. asked the person speaking to address a question of "balance" on the lake. Paraphrased, the question was something like "do you feel that there is a way to compromise, or strike a balance between both sides of this issue"? Basically, how do we not impose a speed limit that would chase away the opponents of the bill, but at the same time keep those that are "frightened" to go out on the lake during the weekend from being chased off and feeling slighted?

As everyone stood and presented their side, it was clearly divided - one side wants speed limits for various reasons, and one side does not for various reasons. But no one really and truly addressed a possible "balance" of the two. Someone got up and stated the balance was the speed limit - clearly that is not a balance, regardless of what anyone on that side might think. Much like an insurance company runs on statistics, and they use actuaries to determine the rates and so on using those stats... the speed limit bill needs to focus on the facts. Facts such as - how many accidents really occurred as a DIRECT result of speed, on the big lake and / or in the state over the last year, or the last 5 or 10? Not how many "close calls" there were or how many times (as stated by one speaker in favor of the limit) they felt "threatened" by a "fast boat" passing too close? Speed on the water is amazingly deceptive - standing on a dock and looking out on to open water, I have had people say to me "wow, look how fast that boat is going!" At which point, I try a little experiment - I hop in my boat and head out and make that same pass (safely of course and following all of the lakes current laws ) and make a pass at 40 mph. I come back to the dock and ask "how fast do you think that was"? I will typically get anywhere from 55 - 65 mph as an answer, (every so often I get 70+ from someone that is a bit "green" on boating) when I tell them 40mph - they don't believe it! My point!? People that got up Monday to speak in favor of the bill stated all they (thought) they knew about how fast boats went by them "too fast" in their kayak, or row boat or sail boat - but in actuality, no one had a radar gun or knowledge of how fast they were really going. So, what is too fast!? Too fast for the conditions, too fast for the area, or too fast just because it looked like it was too fast? Few had ever been in a boat at 45mph, let alone above that speed and yet - they felt 45mph is "fast enough" for our 27 mile-long lake!? I know the first time I ever went fast in a boat, (as a passenger) it was overwhelming - sensory overload - and it is a euphoric feeling. The first time I ever drove a boat fast, I did it far away from any one or any boat, had someone with me that had lots of experience and I worked my way up based on comfort and skill. I talked to a lot of people with experience and learned how to it it safely, and ALWAYS considered all my surroundings, water conditions, congestion, my equipment etc... Trust me, "fast" feels different - and is very subjective - the first time you do it - because you have never been there before, there have been studies that show what happens to the body in times like that. Your adrenaline kicks in, like on a roller coaster and you just get that feeling of "wow". Performance boats look fast just tied to the dock, painted all fancy and racy - and when going along at 30 or 40 mph, can look like they are going 2x as fast. Once up on plane, a 38' performance boat gives off about the same wake as a 23' bowrider will at the same speed - say 35 mph - so, is the performance boat more of a threat as it passes by? No. By design a performance boats bottom - what it rides on through the water - is designed to turn, run and react quicker then your average "family boat" will. Thus, in the event of having to avoid a situation, will handle that maneuver far better and more successfully than your average boat would.

I own a "performance boat" that will do well over 45mph, I own a 17' Boston Whaler that will do about 43mph, and I own a 12' aluminum boat with an 8hp o/b that will do < 15mph. I have been on the big lake my entire life, since I was 10 mo. old - I'm 39 now - and have seen MANY changes. Boats got bigger, houses got bigger and yes, the area has been developed. We own a house on the water on the west end of the lake and I can't think of a better place to spend my time, esp. now that we have a 3 year old son to share it with. One of the big misconceptions surrounding all of this is that people that own fast boats drive them fast all the time, tearing up the lake recklessly and with careless abandon. As an owner of one, and having many friends who also own them - I can assure you this is NOT the case! We are hard-working family people - with kids - and we go out and enjoy our boating like everyone else, we just choose to do it in a particular style of boat. I don't look down on the guy with a 16' bowrider, or the pontoon boat, or the sail boat, that is their choice as to how they want to enjoy the lake. That is the beauty of this country - freedom of choice - you choose to buy what suits your budget, style of boating and your families needs. And if you are fortunate enough to be able to be out in a boat - on the lake - then ya, consider yourself fortunate! Every weekend, weekday or whenever I can be out there - sharing my time on the water with my family and friends - I consider myself fortunate, as does my wife and our friends.

Growing up, I was taught right from wrong - as most of us were - and with that eventually came an inherent level of common sense. If the stove top is hot, don't touch it - you will get burned and that is not enjoyable. You are told not to touch it, and if you had to find out the hard way just for your own satisfaction - you touched it and learned why, and more than likely - never did it again. I was also taught growing up - by my dad - how to drive a boat, and with that - he taught me how to be a "good boater". How to navigate and do so safely, and how to use the common sense god - and your parents - gave you to enhance that skill! For example, if you see a boat with the hatch up, or dead in the water in the middle of a well-traveled area, stop and ask them if they need help. As an adult, I have been fortunate enough to own many boats of all types, fast, slow, big, small and each boat is suitable for different types of boating. My common sense tells me - taking my 12' aluminum boat out for a ride on a nice sunny Saturday in July with my 3 year old son and venturing across the lake over to Shep Browns for some fuel... really not a good idea! Much like jumping on my mountain bike and heading out for a ride on Rte. 93 on a busy Friday afternoon is not a good idea either. No more would you find me trying to take my "performance boat" into a shallow tiny little cove to go fishing with my son and expecting to not hit anything - like a rock or the bottom, that's what my 12' dingy is for. All boats were designed with a specific range of use as part of that design - a ski boat was not designed to mount outriggers on and go out trawling for tuna. I don't hammer nails with a pipe wrench, I use a hammer - I don't eat tomato soup with a fork, I use a spoon.... I use the right tool, the right utensil for the task at hand, it's just common sense. All these people that "fear for their lives" on the lake - need to stop and think about what they are doing. Are you the guy or gal riding your mountain bike on rte. 93 during the Friday afternoon rush!? Are you trying to eat your peas with a butter knife and wondering why it doesn't work for you like it does in the cartoons!? Are you trying to cross a busy section of the lake in your kayak on a Saturday and not giving it a second thought, and then wondering why you possibly feel "unsafe"!? Are you carrying 500lb propane tanks on a 17' boat across to an island - as stated by one speaker Monday - and wondering why you feel "threatened" by passing boaters!? BTW - is that smart - let alone even legal to do, shouldn't there be something to regulate that kind of reckless transport?!? Hey, how's that overloaded floating time-bomb you are driving!? Maybe use a big barge to carry a load like that next time - a bit more suitable, don't you think!?

The balance is to boat smarter - not slower! Use your head when you go out there and boat for the conditions that are present. Just because things have changed over the last 50, 70, 100 years... doesn't mean that time should be meant to stand still, and we should revert back to 1962. Everyone should be free to enjoy the lake with whatever type of boat their budget and life-style dictates, so long as they use it in a reasonable and prudent manner for the prevailing conditions at that time. That covers the type of boat, the water and traffic conditions, the elements, etc... All you need to do is think - put the brain in gear before the boat, (or before the paddle hits the water) and consider what you are about to do. You wouldn't take a Ferrari out in a snow storm as you know it wasn't designed for that - and thus, probably won't have positive results. So, why would you load your kids, your dog, a cooler and a set of skis into your boat and head out to the channel between Meredith Neck and Bear Island on a busy summer Saturday and say "ok, who's going to get in and go for a ski first!?" When you could be smart about it, take 5 min. and drive over to the back side of Beaver Isl. and do the same with little to no traffic to worry about and be much safer!?

At the end of the day - you can't teach common sense - but you can teach people to be better / safer / smarter boaters! We are doing that through the safe boating certificate program now, and it is working very well! We need to continue that program and support it's goals and we will continue to be amazed at the positive results, many of which we have seen already!!

Be safe - be smart and all will benefit from it!

[Airwaves]

So let me get this straight. The speed limit crowd is quoting from a survey done by a firm with a questionable reputation, conducted in an area away from the lake, and with an unknown number of people that have experience on Lake Winnipesaukee?

But they call the Marine Patrol research, conducted on the lake in much the same manner in which they will have to set up radar posts if this bill becomes law, flawed?

The ARS survery, as I understand it would be like conducting a poll for the Republican Presidential Primary but including Democratic voters in the results!


In the spirit of compromise, and this is mainly directed toward any Senator or State Rep that happens to be lurking. I would propose the following that would solve most of the problems raised by the folks truely concerned about safety (none of the issues raised by people who want performance boats gone) and at the same time I believe it would be acceptable to many of the folks that oppose HB847.

Substitute the language in HB 847 with the USCG Navigation Rule 6. Here are the benefits.

1. It would give Marine Patrol greater flexibility in deciding what is an unsafe speed for the conditions that exist.
2. The could enforce this law visually, without the need for radar.
3. Without having to rely on radar they don't have to divert resources currently used for safety patrols.
4. No additional funds need be spent for radar certification.
5. Rule 6 spells out exactly what criteria is used in its enforcement.
6. It would not establish arbitrary numbers allowing boats to travel at speeds that are safe above or below 45 given existing conditions.
7. It actually addresses safety issues.

I would back the adoption of Rule 6 100%.

[Bear Islander]

So in the spirit of compromise, you are will to accept what the opposition has wanted all along. This is the kind of "compromise" that will give you 45/25 everywhere.

For a second I thought you might be talking real compromise, like 45/25 except in the broads.

[Island Lover]

My recollection is that the first poll was done independant with only one question. The anti speed limit group said there were not enough questions (and other complaints). NHLA would not sign onto HB162 then because it was only for Winnipesaukee. The next year NHLA had American Reesearch do a more detailed study.

The only poll that counts is done in the State House.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

The only poll that counts is done in the State House.

Yahoo!!!

And don't forget the Governor's desk!!!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

...Hi Skip

Good to see we have finally sucked you into the fight!...

Hi Richard,

Nope....not suckered in just yet, was only dipping my big toe...when the "stuff" starts to pile up deeper than my waders, I'll do that on occasion!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Skip

Hi Richard,

Nope....not suckered in just yet, was only dipping my big toe...when the "stuff" starts to pile up deeper than my waders, I'll do that on occasion!

Watch out Skip , here it comes

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Islander

Thanks Skip, so it was NOT WinnFABS that paid for the study! Nice how you try and tar with the same brush, obviously the NHLA and WinnFABS are not the same, not even in the same ballpark. However if you support speed limits you must be part of the same "vast left wing conspiracy".

However from the dates that looks like the second study done in 2006. Who paid for the "New Hampshire Poll" done in the spring of 2005?

The article was written in Feb 06 and mentions a previous study, I don't think it is unrealistic that they could be talking abut the 05 study, especially if the results were only released later in the year.

It was commissioned by a clear supporter of Winnfabs, people that are probably members of Winnfabs as well. Basically the same people! A pretty basic way of putting just enough distance between the two so that it is not so obvious that Winnfabbs is behind it. No conspiracy theory needed...

The solid fact here is that it was started by a supporter of the speed limit. That is hard to deny. If this was to be a real survey it should have been conducted by a neutral party and with a group that had solid knowledge of the lake instead of people that may not have ever even been here. Your group claims that the MP speed study was tainted but don't think this one is? Give me a break!!!

At this point I don't really care what happens. I think that it is a pathetic campaign that the supporters have concocted to push this through. Fear, lies and misconceptions are all that this is based on. It won't affect me either way.

I hope you get what you wish for, the end result many not be as pleasant as you think...