How might the Marine Patrol enforce Speed Limits?

[Airwaves]

That would stand up in court?

There are two obvious ways, radar with certified radar operators and a chase in which the Marine Patrol determines the speed via GPS.

How else? Remember this has to meet the standards of a court of law, not just gathering statistical data.

I doubt they could use the visual of timing a boat as it passes through a measured mile. The angle of observation would be too great to determine the boats position against the start or stop of the measured mile and if the boat deviates from a straight line it will through off the measurement.

Any thoughts?

[Bear Islander]

It doesn't have to be part of a chase, they can match speeds with your boat, then their speed is yours.

I believe a visual estimate by law enforcement is also valid.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

That would stand up in court?

There are two obvious ways, radar with certified radar operators and a chase in which the Marine Patrol determines the speed via GPS.

How else? Remember this has to meet the standards of a court of law, not just gathering statistical data.

They could track up to 24 targets at a time on their Raymarine C80 radar displays. These show bearing and speed accurately, regardless of the angle of incidence. Bet they won't though.

[Chris Craft]

Originally Posted by Dave R

They could track up to 24 targets at a time on their Raymarine C80 radar displays. These show bearing and speed accurately, regardless of the angle of incidence. Bet they won't though.

Lots of boats will not have enough signature to show up on those things especially at the higher speeds. Would be interesting to see. We tried to get them to radar us in a different lake and even passing at 15 feet from them (at their request) they could not get a read off the boat of ANY speed from 20 mph up to almost 100. The police were in the cruiser in the second picture.

Please note that we are wearing a lot of safty gear.

[2Blackdogs]

Results from other lakes don't count.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander
It doesn't have to be part of a chase, they can match speeds with your boat, then their speed is yours.

I believe a visual estimate by law enforcement is also valid.

I don't believe a visual estimate by law enforcement without supporting data under HB847 would stand up in court. The legal burden of proof is on the Marine Patrol.

Matching speeds/chase, just a play on words, still using GPS chasing a boat.

Originally posted by Dave R
They could track up to 24 targets at a time on their Raymarine C80 radar displays

Yep, that would be radar.

[winnilaker]

The law states it's prima facie.

"...the speed of any vessel in excess of the limit specified in this subparagraph shall be prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable or prudent and that it is unlawful:..."

As Skip can probably add value here and this has been discussed elsewhere. if you choose to fight it, MP will have to prove more than just the speed limit was broken and you have the ability to prove that your speed was reasonable and prudent. Going fast in the broads in a boat designed to go fast will probably not get you a ticket. Going fast in Weirs bay probably will. Either way, fighting it will be your best choice to keep it off your driving record.

[Skip]

....Both Winnilaker and Airwaves have correctly interpreted the law in the above posts....no need to reiterate the backgound as Winnilaker points out it has been explained several times before in other threads.

But as always, please feel free to PM me off-line if you would like further supporting information or as always, call the NHMP HQ during regular business hours and have the good folks in Gilford give you the straight dope right from the enforcing officers themselves!

Safe Boating,

Skip

[Airwaves]

Actually the question I posed initially is still unanswered, or maybe it is?

Outside of radar or GPS how can the Marine Patrol enforce HB847 that can successfully be used in a court of law?

[Evenstar]

Originally Posted by winnilaker

The law states it's prima facie.

"...the speed of any vessel in excess of the limit specified in this subparagraph shall be prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable or prudent and that it is unlawful:..."

As Skip can probably add value here and this has been discussed elsewhere. if you choose to fight it, MP will have to prove more than just the speed limit was broken and you have the ability to prove that your speed was reasonable and prudent. Going fast in the broads in a boat designed to go fast will probably not get you a ticket. Going fast in Weirs bay probably will. Either way, fighting it will be your best choice to keep it off your driving record.

Thats not the definition for prima facie in my law books:

"adj. Latin for "at first look," or "on its face," referring to a lawsuit or criminal prosecution in which the evidence before trial is sufficient to prove the case unless there is substantial contradictory evidence presented at trial. A prima facie case presented to a Grand Jury by the prosecution will result in an indictment."

What this means is that any speeds above the speed limit are automatically rated as "not reasonable or prudent" and therefore are unlawful ... the burden would be on the defendant to prove otherwise.

I posted this way back on March 1, 2006 in the Collisions and Speed thread

Note that the same prima facie language is used for NH highway speed limits.

[sky_nh]

To find out how the Marine Patrol will determine who is speeding, my advice is that once the law is in effect, that you speed across the Broads as fast as you can in your gas-guzzling power boat and wait until you get caught. At that point, you will no doubt learn how they intend to catch boaters breaking the speed limit. Perhaps when you contest your fine in court, there will be other details that you will learn about.

Similarly, when the Laconia Police department, stops and fines me for speeding on Route 11, I learn a great deal about the methods they use to determine that I was speeding. It is a wonderful, if not expensive, learning experience.

I can't believe you guys are asking these questions! How about not speeding?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by sky_nh

I can't believe you guys are asking these questions! How about not speeding?

I bet most of the responders on this thread don't typically travel faster than 30 MPH in boats.

[jrc]

Realistically, the MP will have to set up radar speed traps just like the land based police do. They will be forced to do this politically, the people that run the MP wil not risk their careers by not visibly enforcing a new law.

Now the MP are not stupid, and what they don't know about the speed traps, they can learn from other NH LEOs. They will set up the traps in spots where they can get a clear radar shot at offending boats and where they will find offending boats. For politcal reasons they will set them up in areas where people complain about fast boats. They don't really care if going fast in that area is dangerous. Look at where land based speed traps are, usually in places where we drivers feel that it's safe to go above the posted speed.

They will give out tickets, they have to. If this Safety boss doesn't his replacement will. Now, will they hold up in court? The MP really doesn't care. As someone said the process is part of the punishment. You have to take time off from work to fight this. At first everyone will fight them and maybe break the system, but eventually a lot of people will just send in the money.

Here is the real question, will they ever see a boat going faster than 45 MPH?

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by jrc

At first everyone will fight them and maybe break the system, but eventually a lot of people will just send in the money.

Did you forget the part about points?

Seems some politicans decided to provide a reason to go to court...

[B R]

Originally Posted by sky_nh

I can't believe you guys are asking these questions! How about not speeding?

I'll be testing the enforceability of this law as soon as possible. I don't believe these tickets have a chance of holding up in court.

One way this thing dies in two years is if it adds too many court costs and it's proven over and over again that the law cannot be enforced. The other is voting out the Senators who voted for this law (See "Payback Time" thread)

[Aquadeziac]

Who says you have to look on the water for speed traps? There were two instances in the recent past where cars were clocked speeding.....one at 135 MPH,,,FROM THE AIR!! If that Cessenna can track the speed of a car at 10,000 ft up and it stands up in court, do you really think it won't work on the water? I can see it now.....you think youre soooo cool, going soooo fast, but the MP is at your destination before you are with a printout of your speed and an 8 X 10 glossy to boot! Then we will watch your dream team flush your wallet with one hand while slapping you on the back with the other telling you "We got'em right where we want them now, you'll be winning any day now, not much longer, we're wearin' 'em down, only a few hundred more dollars"
I just don't understand why some people just refuse to believe the technology is out there. Just because you don't understand it, it must not exist. Thats elementary school mentality.
Just look at some of the technology you do believe in and ask yourself if you would have believed 25 years ago that this would be possible in 25 years.
I personally am looking forward to sitting back and watching the first one that gets nailed next year.

[jrc]

You do realize that airborne speed measurement rely on lines painted in the breakdown lane and stopwatches? not really high tech.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by jrc

You do realize that airborne speed measurement rely on lines painted in the breakdown lane and stopwatches? not really high tech.

Saw them painting lines every 1/4 mile the other day. Special paint from 3M sticks to the water.....

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Saw them painting lines every 1/4 mile the other day. Special paint from 3M sticks to the water.....

Only you!

That was the best laugh I've had all day....thanks!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Aquadeziac
Who says you have to look on the water for speed traps? There were two instances in the recent past where cars were clocked speeding.....one at 135 MPH,,,FROM THE AIR!! If that Cessenna can track the speed of a car at 10,000 ft up and it stands up in court, do you really think it won't work on the water?

I actually did consider using aircraft as an example of what might stand up in court in my original example, except to my knowledge the NH Marine Patrol does not own either a rotary or fixed wing aircraft and the expense makes it prohibitive so it's not a realistic scenario IMHO.

Originally posted by This'nThat
Hmmmm. A boat measured at 100mph but yet not going in a straight line? Let's do an example. Suppose the boat was at a 30-degree angle off the "straight line"? Then the actual speed of the boat would be 115mph [100/Cosine(30)], meaning that the measurement would actually be an understatement -- much to your advantage if the MP doesn't compensate for the angle.

Much more complex example than I was thinking of, I was just thinking he made a couple of turns, maybe to avoid waves, debris or a marker but the result is the same however we still have the problem about the determination of when the suspect boat enters the start and exits the stop of the measured mile.

So, we have Radar, GPS and Aircraft. All of which will require crews and funding, what else could withstand the burden of proof?

Originally posted by Rattlesnake Guy
Saw them painting lines every 1/4 mile the other day. Special paint from 3M sticks to the water.....

So THAT's what all that yellow is in the water!!!!

[jrc]

You guys are crazy, they will paint the lines on the bottom of the lake. They're just waiting for DES permits.

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

So, we have Radar, GPS and Aircraft. All of which will require crews and funding, what else could withstand the burden of proof?

You keep forgetting that speed limits are enforced on other lakes in NH. This isn't going to be a problem. Boats will go 5, 10 even 15 over the limit and get away with it. Just like on our highways, and who cares!

If some boat goes around the lake at 75 mph the MP will stop them (with or without Radar) and have a conversation with them. After that conversation the boat will either slow down to a more reasonable speed, or continue to scoff the law. If they continue the second boat stop will be a lot less pleasant. Do you think the MP are going to let someone continue to break the law in an open and in your face manner? Hey, these are cops, you are not going to beat them at their own game! You can piss them off, but in the end, they will win! Plus its not like the highways, you can't disappear or hide, they will find you sooner or later, probably sooner.

And no funding is required. Funding requires an appropriation by the state. The MP budget is not going to be increased because of HB847. An officer taking along a Radar unit while on Patrol and checking a few boat speed is not going to require a major MP shakeup. This just isn't that big a deal.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Island Lover
And no funding is required. Funding requires an appropriation by the state. The MP budget is not going to be increased because of HB847. An officer taking along a Radar unit while on Patrol and checking a few boat speed is not going to require a major MP shakeup. This just isn't that big a deal.

You're right that HB847 does NOT increase funding for the Marine Patrol, but pretty much wrong about everything else.

AN officer isn't just going to throw a radar unit in the boat and check a few boats now and again.

The use of radar requires the operator of the radar unit be certified and the unit calibrated. It also requires a crew of two officers in the boat. Certification costs money, the second officer in the boat costs money, replacing that second officer on another boat costs money, court time costs money. This would be true for every radar post stationed on the lake, one isn't going to do it.

So the first MP boat stops your boat he thinks is going too fast and has a conversation, you continue on your way and run into the second MP boat that was alerted by the first and you're stopped again. Then what? If there was no use of radar, GPS and you were not tracked by aircraft then nothing, that's what. The MP might conduct a safety check looking for violations but as far as a citation for speeding? Not going to happen.

An officer's estimated speed based on what he/she visually observed is not enough for a conviction in a court of law under HB847.

So short of Radar, GPS and Aircraft (all of which will cost additional money) how will the Marine Patrol be able to enforce this law on a 72 square mile lake?

Where speed limits are in force on small lakes it involves prohibiting different types of watercraft and/or limiting horsepower. Not Marine Patrol enforcement.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Where speed limits are in force on small lakes it involves prohibiting different types of watercraft and/or limiting horsepower. Not Marine Patrol enforcement.

Many years ago I was involved with placing a speed limit on a small New Hampshire lake. There were a few violations the first year it was in effect and I called the Marine Patrol. An officer arrived in a car and waited for the boat to return to shore. They didn't speed again.

There is no prohibiting of boat types on smaller lakes. Just speed limits that work.

If someone thinks they are going to operate their boat at 75 mph on Winni and the Marine Patrol will be helpless, then they don't know much about cops.

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Many years ago I was involved with placing a speed limit on a small New Hampshire lake. There were a few violations the first year it was in effect and I called the Marine Patrol. An officer arrived in a car and waited for the boat to return to shore. They didn't speed again.

There is no prohibiting of boat types on smaller lakes. Just speed limits that work.

If someone thinks they are going to operate their boat at 75 mph on Winni and the Marine Patrol will be helpless, then they don't know much about cops.

BI did you have a place on that lake? You seem to be the superman of speed limits on lakes around the globe!!!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Chris Craft

Lots of boats will not have enough signature to show up on those things especially at the higher speeds. Would be interesting to see. We tried to get them to radar us in a different lake and even passing at 15 feet from them (at their request) they could not get a read off the boat of ANY speed from 20 mph up to almost 100. The police were in the cruiser in the second picture.

Please note that we are wearing a lot of safty gear.

I don't see a radar antenna on that cruiser. The Raymarine gear I was referring to is not police speed radar, it's vastly more sophisticated and the newer MP boats have it.



The big white thing on top of the superstructure is a radar antenna with a 24 nautical mile range. It's connected to a display that can show the speed and bearing of boats within 24 nautical miles of the patrol boat. Park that boat in the middle of the broads and they can detect the speed of any boat in the broads.

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

...if the boat deviates from a straight line it will through [throw] off the measurement.

Any thoughts?

Hmmmm. A boat measured at 100mph but yet not going in a straight line? Let's do an example. Suppose the boat was at a 30-degree angle off the "straight line"? Then the actual speed of the boat would be 115mph [100/Cosine(30)], meaning that the measurement would actually be an understatement -- much to your advantage if the MP doesn't compensate for the angle.

[John A. Birdsall]

Rattlesnake guy, your mistaken, that was pollen floating in the water not paint. I know it can be misleading.