How might the Marine Patrol enforce Speed Limits?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Bear Islander, I applaude you for your work as the director of a camp for underprivileged children!

Now, in the context of what we are discussing, what lake are you referencing when you write;


I would like to see how you were able to eliminate excessive speed (sorry, that doesn't exist without speed limits, right?) without either Marine Patrol support or banning certain types of watercraft?

See my link above to the Marine Patrol Restricted Bodies of Water in NH!

KonaChick seems to know of what lake you speak, so why not share it?

In my political activist youth, Judd Gregg and I petitioned the Department of safety for restrictions on Sunset Lake in Greenfield. There was a hearing, we presented our case, and won the day. I gave up politics but Judd went on the be a Congressman, Governor and Senator.

The speed limit worked. It still works today. The camp has closed, but the other lake residents want to keep the speed limit.

Sorry, but there is nothing about what happened on Sunset lake that argues against HB847, quite the contrary. I have seen boating speed limits work fist hand.

[Airwaves]

So let me get this straight just so I understand it correctly.

You are comparing the success of "speed limits" and the lack of enforcement of those "speed limits" on a 30 acre pond, to that of Lake Winnipesaukee?

Just to make sure we're talking about the same examples:

Sunset Lake (aka Gould Pond) - Greenfield
SAF-C 402.78 - (a) No person shall operate a motorboat on Sunset Lake in Greenfield at a speed exceeding 10 MPH. However, this restriction shall not apply between 4:30 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. or sunset, whichever occurs first, on Monday through Saturday, both inclusive, and further provided during the restricted hours, motorboats shall not be operated at a speed exceeding 30 MPH.
(b) All waterskiing on Sunset Lake shall be in a counter-clockwise direction during the unlimited hours.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Fish...greenfield.pdf
Sunset Lake, Greenfield. 33 acres, NO PUBLIC ACCESS, Residents only, canoe/cartop launch next to beach.

What happens on Sunday, no boats allowed at all or is that when the GFBL boats show up to ski counter clockwise and create a big flushing whirlpool sound?

http://www.winnipesaukee.org/watershed-facts.htm
Lake Winnipesaukee, Surface Water
Lake Winnipesaukee
44,586 acres

So Sunset Lake (Gould Pond) is the benchmark for Lake Winnipesaukee that you keep talking about as a camp director?

No Public Access and still the waterfont owners had to be forced by you (and Judd Gregg) to slow down to something you thought was reasonable?

Is there even that much surface water (33 acres) in the no wake zone near your camp on Bear Island?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

So let me get this straight just so I understand it correctly.

You are comparing the success of "speed limits" and the lack of enforcement of those "speed limits" on a 30 acre pond, to that of Lake Winnipesaukee?

Just to make sure we're talking about the same examples:


What happens on Sunday, no boats allowed at all or is that when the GFBL boats show up to ski counter clockwise and create a big flushing whirlpool sound?



So Sunset Lake (Gould Pond) is the benchmark for Lake Winnipesaukee that you keep talking about as a camp director?

No Public Access and still the waterfont owners had to be forced by you (and Judd Gregg) to slow down to something you thought was reasonable?

Is there even that much surface water (33 acres) in the no wake zone near your camp on Bear Island?

First. its a lake not a pond, the name it had in antiquity was erroneous. Second. it has public access with two beaches and a launch ramp.

The size of the lake is very small, not a good match for comparison to Winnipesaukee. What can be taken from it is that speed limits can and do work. And that people are, for the most part, law abiding.

The reason I bought it up was to illustrate that even a scofflaw that ignores the limit will change his ways after a law enforcement officer explains the situation to them.

You seem to think the MP will watch impotently while a boat cruises around the lake at 75 mph. That just is not going to happen.

[Hottrucks]

not to be a wise guy or anything but how does a boat that goes 50 mph catch a boat going 75 mph and if they do all I want to know is who is going to get the ticket???? you who may have been ridding in the boat me who may have been driving it or gramma who is on the pourch cooking hot dogs??who may have been out there herself???

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander
First. its a lake not a pond, the name it had in antiquity was erroneous. Second. it has public access with two beaches and a launch ramp.

You may classify it as a lake, but to me it's a large swimming hole! You could put 23 of similar size "lakes" onto Bear Island itself!

If there is public access it is apparently news to the New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife folks who make available this map to visitors who want to fish. Note that it clearly says NO PUBLIC ACCESS, RESIDENTS ONLY!

Originally posted by Bear Islander
The size of the lake is very small, not a good match for comparison to Winnipesaukee. What can be taken from it is that speed limits can and do work. And that people are, for the most part, law abiding.

It still leaves a big big question, in a lake that massive...I mean pond that small how is it that you found the NEED to deal with lawmaking rather than just meet with your neighbors and talk it out?

Originally posted by Bear Islander
The reason I bought it up was to illustrate that even a scofflaw that ignores the limit will change his ways after a law enforcement officer explains the situation to them.

Actually you have been very clear that the speed limit bill won't cost money and now we know how you have come to that very erronious conclusion. Didn't cost any money on Gould Pond, right?

Originally posted by Bear Islander
You seem to think the MP will watch impotently while a boat cruises around the lake at 75 mph. That just is not going to happen.

Now to take a quote from any one of a number of posts by Bear Islander. I never said that! What I have said is that the LEGAL BURDEN OF PROOF is on the Marine Patrol, and without the expense of radar, GPS or aircraft tracking the Marine Patrol can NOT MEET THEIR BURDEN OF PROOF and if they can I'd like to know how!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

You may classify it as a lake, but to me it's a large swimming hole! You could put 23 of similar size "lakes" onto Bear Island itself!

If there is public access it is apparently news to the New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife folks who make available this map to visitors who want to fish. Note that it clearly says NO PUBLIC ACCESS, RESIDENTS ONLY!


It still leaves a big big question, in a lake that massive...I mean pond that small how is it that you found the NEED to deal with lawmaking rather than just meet with your neighbors and talk it out?


Actually you have been very clear that the speed limit bill won't cost money and now we know how you have come to that very erronious conclusion. Didn't cost any money on Gould Pond, right?


Now to take a quote from any one of a number of posts by Bear Islander. I never said that! What I have said is that the LEGAL BURDEN OF PROOF is on the Marine Patrol, and without the expense of radar, GPS or aircraft tracking the Marine Patrol can NOT MEET THEIR BURDEN OF PROOF and if they can I'd like to know how!

You sure know how to take the long way around the barn to make a useless point!

First there is, and has been, a public ramp on Sunset Lake. It is however limited to Greenfield residents.

Second, we didn't have trouble with the lake residents, they were a great bunch of neighbors. It was people that trailered in that caused the problems. In particular the boat from Camp Winamac that trailered in every day and skied for hours. They didn't like to water ski on their own lake because it screwed up their small boating.

Thirdly, they will do it by matching speeds or some other method. Your "they can't stop me" bravado is laughable!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Bear Islander
Thirdly, they will do it by matching speeds or some other method. Your "they can't stop me" bravado is laughable!

In case you missed it, the entire point of this thread is to accertain, without use of Radar, GPS or Aerial observation, HOW THE MARINE PATROL CAN MEET THE BURDEN OF PROOF of HB847 IN A COURT OF LAW!

or some other method

What other method? You in particular and a number of speed limit advocates have been saying this bill comes at no cost. I want to see exactly how you think the Marine Patrol will enforce this bill so that it meets the legal burden of proof. Explain what "Some other method" is exactly.

a public ramp on Sunset Lake. It is however limited to Greenfield residents.

Then that would not make it a "public" ramp would it?

So you didn't like someone from "away" coming onto you pond to waterski? How horrible that must have been!

Kind of interesting how a camp director not necessarily a property owner, got this law passed imposing restrictions on property owners of the pond, then the camp director and the camp left the pond!

A 33 acre pond is Not Lake Winnipesaukee, enforcement needs and COSTS are something that should have been taken into account before this crusade was launched. If there aren't enough Marine Patrol crews to handle the 150 foot rule then cutting those numbers to set up radar posts is going to make things less enforceable all around.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

That is how the law works. I had restrictions placed on them many years ago, and now I am having restrictions placed on you.

"I" am having restrictions placed on you.Pretty much sums up the arrogant demeanor behind the actions from some of these supporters.

[Squam Friend]

That single quote by "BearIslander" in siksukr's post above prompted me to join this forum, I was so appalled by the sheer audacity. "That is how the law works," as if whenever someone does something you don't like, you can get a law passed to stop them. Who do you think you are, BearIslander? I see that you must have edited the original post, but not before your true egotism and condescending attitude showed its face. You make it sound like you had a restraining order passed by claiming "I am having restrictions placed on you." I have to ask again, who do you think you are?

Having been a lifetime boater and resident on Squam Lake I would like to see a single piece of evidence that a speed limit "worked" to "solve a problem," and the same goes for the proposed limit on Winnipesaukee. The only actual non-anecdotal data I have seen does not support the need for a limit on speed. I sincerely hope Governor Lynch hears both sides of this issue and makes a reasonable decision, based on facts, on whether to sign this bill into law. That being said, I am not categorically against speed limits on lakes, but I am against legislation that is based on anecdotes, and not a real demonstrated need for a law to make a social change.

[COWISLAND NH]

Originally Posted by Squam Friend

That single quote by "BearIslander" in siksukr's post above prompted me to join this forum, I was so appalled by the sheer audacity. "That is how the law works," as if whenever someone does something you don't like, you can get a law passed to stop them. Who do you think you are, BearIslander? I see that you must have edited the original post, but not before your true egotism and condescending attitude showed its face. You make it sound like you had a restraining order passed by claiming "I am having restrictions placed on you." I have to ask again, who do you think you are?

Having been a lifetime boater and resident on Squam Lake I would like to see a single piece of evidence that a speed limit "worked" to "solve a problem," and the same goes for the proposed limit on Winnipesaukee. The only actual non-anecdotal data I have seen does not support the need for a limit on speed. I sincerely hope Governor Lynch hears both sides of this issue and makes a reasonable decision, based on facts, on whether to sign this bill into law. That being said, I am not categorically against speed limits on lakes, but I am against legislation that is based on anecdotes, and not a real demonstrated need for a law to make a social change.

THANK YOU -THANK YOU -THANK YOU!!!!! I personally don't like all the little blow boats zig zagin around across from our camp causing a traffic jam, but I wouldn't consider a ban on them bc of it.
By the way has any one seen the NH Marine patrol boating accident reports for 2007????

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Squam Friend

That single quote by "BearIslander" in siksukr's post above prompted me to join this forum, I was so appalled by the sheer audacity. "That is how the law works," as if whenever someone does something you don't like, you can get a law passed to stop them. Who do you think you are, BearIslander? I see that you must have edited the original post, but not before your true egotism and condescending attitude showed its face. You make it sound like you had a restraining order passed by claiming "I am having restrictions placed on you." I have to ask again, who do you think you are?

Having been a lifetime boater and resident on Squam Lake I would like to see a single piece of evidence that a speed limit "worked" to "solve a problem," and the same goes for the proposed limit on Winnipesaukee. The only actual non-anecdotal data I have seen does not support the need for a limit on speed. I sincerely hope Governor Lynch hears both sides of this issue and makes a reasonable decision, based on facts, on whether to sign this bill into law. That being said, I am not categorically against speed limits on lakes, but I am against legislation that is based on anecdotes, and not a real demonstrated need for a law to make a social change.

Well... I'm glad you joined the forum.

My post was a joke, and SIKSUKR only posted part of it. When I realized some people would not understand my particular brand of humor, I deleted the entire thing.

I did not write or sponsor HB847 and can take no credit for it. I have no authority to place restrictions on Airwaves or anyone else.

I'm sorry you got so worked up over the incomplete copy of a misunderstood joke. I will be more careful in the future. My apologies.

I can assure you that the speed limit on Sunset Lake was a god send that solved a very real problem. The underprivileged children from Nashua that attended the camp compliments of the United Fund were unable to go out in boats at all when there was water-skiing on our small lake. And that happened almost every afternoon and some mornings. The speed limit on that lake changed things dramatically and instantly.

That kind of success does not translate well to a large lake like Winnipesaukee. However the problems of the camps lakes are very real, and will be helped by HB847 in my opinion. The New Hampshire Camp Directors Association supports HB847.

[Squam Friend]

In any case, I did read the entire original post when you first posted it, and was not even going to respond but I felt that another voice of reason would be useful in this forum. While it may have been a joke, it was not only in bad taste but also represents the attitude of some people who are supporters of the speed limit. I simply want to see the lakes be a safe, enjoyable place for all; not to have laws written without good, sound research and a demonstrated need for the government to step in, whether it's on Winnipesaukee, another lake, or in any other area of the public domain. As I said above, anecdotal evidence simply does not demonstrate a need for a law on its own. I would like to know that the camp directors are confident that the boats that are bothering them are traveling at speeds well over the proposed limits and that the enforcement would be serious enough that the law would help these camps safely enjoy the lake. A loud boat traveling by at 31 mph 250 feet away may be intimidating but the proposed speed limit won't change that.

[B R]

Joke or not, it takes an incredible amount of arrogance to write something like that.

[Squam Friend]

B R - well said.

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by B R

I predict Bear Island will see a significant increase in boat traffic.

B R, when you posted that was it an actual threat of reprisals due to passage of HB847, or was it a joke in VERY bad taste?

[B R]

First off, what does that statement have to do with the current topic?

Secondly, a lot of people associate Bear Island with the pro-speed limit crowd. certainly, on this forum, residents of bear island have posted 90% of pro speed limit posts.

thirdly, it wasn't a threat and certainly wasn't a joke. i know i've made a few extra trips past the island this year; so what. if you feel threatened by that, you need some help.

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by B R

First off, what does that statement have to do with the current topic?

Secondly, a lot of people associate Bear Island with the pro-speed limit crowd. certainly, on this forum, residents of bear island have posted 90% of pro speed limit posts.

thirdly, it wasn't a treat and certainly wasn't a joke. i know i've made a few extra trips past the island this year; so what. if you feel threatened by that, you need some help.

So in retaliation for a few Bear Island residents supporting speed limits you plan to harass the island this summer.

You have made "extra trips past the island" and you are planning to continue this. And you think I need help?

I will keep a copy of this for the Marine Patrol if needed.

Bear Islander apologized for his post, you have done the opposite.

[B R]

Remember the handicap parking in wolfboro thread. you stated you were going to park there anyway as a matter of protest. am i not allowed to protest in my own, marginally petty way?

[Island Lover]

Originally Posted by B R

Remember the handicap parking in wolfboro thread. you stated you were going to park there anyway as a matter of protest. am i not allowed to protest in my own, marginally petty way?

I don't think "marginally petty" is the correct term. Your telling us about it is threatening in my opinion. Your actually doing it is called harassment or even stalking.

New Hampshire has a stalking law, perhaps you should look it up and see if it might apply. I will tell you your revelation scares me, I have a small child.

What result are you hoping to get from your behavior. To intimidate islanders? Is this payback? If you are not looking to enact punishment then why do it.

[chipj29]

Since when is driving past an island harrassing or even stalking? Public waters, no?
If he maintains a safe distance from shore, how could that be construed as threatening, harrassing or stalking? Fisherman routinely cast their lines under peoples docks. Is that considered stalking?

I think the MPs would laugh at you if you called them to say that a boat is going past your property more times than you think is right. How much is too much, anyway?

[B R]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

I don't think "marginally petty" is the correct term. Your telling us about it is threatening in my opinion. Your actually doing it is called harassment or even stalking.

New Hampshire has a stalking law, perhaps you should look it up and see if it might apply. I will tell you your revelation scares me, I have a small child.

What result are you hoping to get from your behavior. To intimidate islanders? Is this payback? If you are not looking to enact punishment then why do it.

i find it therapeutic.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

...I will tell you your revelation scares me, I have a small child...

This is the silliest thing that I've heard in a long time.

BR has a right to be marginally petty, the hurdle for stalking or harrassment is pretty high.

BTW I usually take all my guests by the BI PO and to see the "bear" on bear island. If I also point out the guy who hiked to both poles, spent $200K for a "space" ride, and then said "That is how the law works. I had restrictions placed on them many years ago, and now I am having restrictions placed on you", am I being petty?

[KonaChick]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

I don't think "marginally petty" is the correct term. Your telling us about it is threatening in my opinion. Your actually doing it is called harassment or even stalking.

New Hampshire has a stalking law, perhaps you should look it up and see if it might apply. I will tell you your revelation scares me, I have a small child.

What result are you hoping to get from your behavior. To intimidate islanders? Is this payback? If you are not looking to enact punishment then why do it.

Oh gosh...riding by BI is stalking? So what if someone decides to ride around BI 100 times in a row, as long as they obey boating laws how is that stalking? I go by BI ten times a day and to think this whole time I've been stalking..who woulda thunk.

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Island Lover

So in retaliation for a few Bear Island residents supporting speed limits you plan to harass the island this summer.

You have made "extra trips past the island" and you are planning to continue this. And you think I need help?

I will keep a copy of this for the Marine Patrol if needed.

Bear Islander apologized for his post, you have done the opposite.

Island Lover...

You really should be careful what you wish for...

I have traditionally gone around the long way (around Welch Is) from my slip in the Weirs to Braun Bay or Center Harbor or other points North just because @ 55-60 MPH its faster and alot less aggravating than cutting between Bear Is and Meredith Neck due to the large amount of boat traffic and the two bottlenecks.

However, given the outrageous price of fuel and the impending speed limit. I will be taking the shortest route possible between two points. Unfortunately for you, this means yet another boat adding to the congestion in that stretch of water...

But dont worry, my 26' Donzi cruises just fine @ 45 MPH... just a little bigger wake thats all... and @ 25 MPH its ALOT bigger wake...

I know more than few people that have changed thier driving habits accordingly due to the high price of gas and the impending speed limit. I might just find it easier to trade the Donzi in on a "cruiser" type boat. I am not a big fan of them, but no sense in having an "impractical" speedboat that might attract unwanted attention. I can fit more friends on a cruiser, and they can help defray the cost of fuel. I wonder what type of wake that 27 Rinker with the small motor will make? No doubt ALOT bigger than my Donzi does...

Woodsy