Sailboat Tubing

[jrc]

Finally got to see a Mac 26 in person, at the West Alton sandbar on Sunday. If you read any other boating forums you'll know that this boat model is controversial. Basically some people contend it's more powerboat than sailboat.

http://www.macgregor26.com/table.htm

[DRH]

We've actually seen this boat pulling a water skier before, but I couldn't get the camera out in time to take a picture. I think this MacGregor has about a 50 hp outboard motor. For comparison, our 22' sailboat has a 6 hp "kicker" outboard, which we use only when the wind dies to get back home.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by jrc

Finally got to see a Mac 26 in person, at the West Alton sandbar on Sunday. If you read any other boating forums you'll know that this boat model is controversial. Basically some people contend it's more powerboat than sailboat.

http://www.macgregor26.com/table.htm

Thanks for the link, twas interesting reading ! I was pretty much of the same opinion as a lot of the reviewers; power-sailboats are ducks that won't quack. But now this has stirred some neurons so let me ask a question if I may. Given the ballast is primarily there to counteract the rolling forces of the wind on sail (?), I might ask if there's yet another way to skin this cat. Could one use foils below the water line to exert counter-acting forces? This would be less weighty and perhaps even less drag (same foils could also tend to lift the now lighter hull out of the water). If I'm not totally missing something (entirely likely as my sailing experince is mostly windsurfing), I think this could work. Perhaps has already been done ?? Anyway just some musings for your consideration ...

[trfour]

What are these?

From the 1920s

Over eighty feet long, held the water speed record from 1920, into the early sixtys, for this size boat! Twinn V 12 aircraft engines, with dual ignition systems, Lets do the math here.....,, 48 spark plugs... and so on! "Not a cheap tune up, even at VIP's prices!".... Are you listening, FLL!?.... and the wooden props that propelled her, were disigned by the inventer, him self. This Boat would have sailed sooner, the boat was ready, 1900, but the inventer had to work with the US Gouvernment on the design of the engines, as well.

Does hydrofoil, come to mind?

Guess who!

A. G. Bell.

Thank you Don,.... I owe you one!


and don't be surprised, if you see some of these photos at, Waldo Peppers.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by trfour

Over eighty feet long, held the water speed record from 1920, into the early sixtys, for this size boat! Twinn V 12 aircraft engines, and the wooden props that propelled her, were disigned by the inventer, him self. This Boat would have sailed sooner, the boat was ready, 1900, but the inventer had to work with the US Gouvernment on the design of the engines, as well.
Does hydrafoil, come to mind?

Funny how it looks like the Russian ekranoplans mentioned earlier in this year on this forum I did a little research on my musing above and while the idea wasn't explicitly found there was a concept similar enough. Sailing hydrofoils abound and use their lifting foils to sail w/less heeling and more speed. I had imagined a single non-lifting foil in place of a center or dagger -board. Because the foil would counter act the heeling forces you wouldn't need the extra ballast weight and so be "truer" to the Mac26 concept. Of course the problem is that a sailboat must handle both port and starboard tacks and so a normal foil shape won't do. I was envisioning some complex ways of reshaping the foil in real-time but the (already extant) idea of using a trim tab on the -board does the same thing (conceptually). As I always say 99% of ideas are useless and 99% of the remaining 1% have already been done

[trfour]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Funny how it looks like the Russian ekranoplans mentioned earlier in this year on this forum I did a little research on my musing above and while the idea wasn't explicitly found there was a concept similar enough. Sailing hydrofoils abound and use their lifting foils to sail w/less heeling and more speed. I had imagined a single non-lifting foil in place of a center or dagger -board. Because the foil would counter act the heeling forces you wouldn't need the extra ballast weight and so be "truer" to the Mac26 concept. Of course the problem is that a sailboat must handle both port and starboard tacks and so a normal foil shape won't do. I was envisioning some complex ways of reshaping the foil in real-time but the (already extant) idea of using a trim tab on the -board does the same thing (conceptually). As I always say 99% of ideas are useless and 99% of the remaining 1% have already been done

I was only trying to support a long time friend out here in, "Don Hughes."

Where are you going?

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by trfour

I was only trying to support a long time friend out here in, "Don Hughes."
Where are you going?

Apparently in circles .... Not being a sailor I was wondering what that wierd watercraft I saw last Sun was and bam ! .... D.H. puts up a post w/a pic of said boat. Reading the Mac26 articles made me wonder if there was a another way to achieve the principle behind the boat, light weight for power-boating (and trailering) while still retaining "sailability". Instead of taking on ballast to counteract healing I wondered if something more modern could be done and of course it's been done (tabs on centerboard = my under water foil musing).

My interest in 'foils comes about as part enginerdness plus part cheapness (foil efficiency = less $$ spent on gas) I often wonder if it's an old (as your pics show) idea whose time as come (given modern, cheap control systems). Imagine faster boats using less gas, indifferent to the chop and leaving little to no wake. If only I was; a) smart and b) had degrees in aeronautical engineering instead EE. Oh well

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

My interest in 'foils comes about as part enginerdness plus part cheapness (foil efficiency = less $$ spent on gas)...Imagine faster boats using less gas, indifferent to the chop and leaving little to no wake. If only I was; a) smart and b) had degrees in aeronautical engineering instead EE. Oh well

You might like to browse these foil sites:
http://www.foils.org/yourown.htm (Pedal-powered)
http://wingo.com/dakh/ (Add-on foils by DAK)

"DAK Hydrofoils is bringing out hydrofoil kits and plans for yachts weighing from one to several tons. Can you imagine you and your friends flying smoothly across the seas at speeds of 20 to 30 knots or more, in a moderate tradewind or afternoon onshore breeze? They should add: "And always be the 'stand-on' boat".

Although sailing analog foilers (Rave) can be bought off-the-shelf for about $8,000, there's a hard landing for the skipper -- after the thrill -- should he hit a mush-boater wake at 30 MPH.

I doubt that foils will ever become sail-marketable again: too steep a learning curve, and too prone to damage from debris, storms, and large water critters.

What's the point anyway, when a standard sail catamaran crossed the Atlantic last month at 30 Knots average speed, and a faster stepped-hull sail catamaran is again in the works!

Foil engineers (which include a few EEs) design around sailboats because everything on a sailboat IS a foil: Sails, keel, rudder, hull.

BTW: Aren't all EEs unemployed nowadays?

[trfour]

Don Hughes, is a wonderful and long time inventer here, just check out all of his photos!

I thaught it befitting to add another great inventer, to one of his posts!

I realy don't think that he would mind the compliment!



http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...er_Graham.html


Thank you Don, for all that you do for us all!

[madrasahs]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...My interest in 'foils comes about as part enginerdness plus part cheapness (foil efficiency = less $$ spent on gas) I often wonder if it's an old (as your pics show) idea whose time as come (given modern, cheap control systems). Imagine faster boats using less gas, indifferent to the chop and leaving little to no wake. If only I was; a) smart and b) had degrees in aeronautical engineering instead EE. Oh well."

Hydrofoils seem to work best at speeds up to 35MPH; otherwise, there's too much cavitation at the foils, preventing higher speeds. Hydrofoils therefore lend themselves best to sailing speeds. One of the world's fastest non-foil sailboats (40+ Knots) just sold for $2M, which is a cheap way to sail fast.

There's lots of activity in Europe and Australia with sailing hydrofoils. This site has an "artsy photo" too large to post:

http://www.hydroptere.com/ (It's an aerial photo showing a 60-foot trimaran with hydrofoils, which are the large surfaces towards the top of the photo). Note the size of the crewman on the bow.

Here's one from US Navy engineers (the "Monitor"):

Another from the June issue of "Yachting World" (UK magazine -- 2004 Nationals). The boat is airborne, but is a little difficult to see, as the water is a very dark blue:

(This one is best sailed "solo").

[GWC...]

Some interesting pictures and video of the WindRider Rave, a hydrofoil assisted trimaran.

[upthesaukee]

Yep, just we need...a sailboat that can go faster than I can in my 19 ft bowrider, can out maneuver me, and I have to give way to it!!!! time to get out the Rugged Rubber Baby Bumpers and put them around the boat.

[madrasahs]

Yes, GWC has made my day.

However, in multi-hull sailing, there's plenty of thrills-per-minute -- without hydrofoils.

The Rave video shows course-corrections just for the relatively small wake of the videographer's boat. (Where the crew get wet).

Videos were available for the Hobie Tri-Foiler (no longer on the market).


Fast enough, but at 22 feet long, and 18-feet wide, @ 35Knots, upthesaukee would need to put away the fenders and stay home. The Tri-Foiler would use up too many of "Winnipesaukee acres-per-minute" -- and the Tri-Foiler would be the "stand-on" boat!

Here's mostly motorized hydrofoil development from the 50s: http://www.foils.org/gallery/1950.htm

The site even has some hydrofoilgeek for Mac. For reasons unknown, hydrofoils seem to be the realm of geezers.

"...We knew this from the start but installed the feeler/incidence controlled system while developing an electronic autopilot with zero spatial anticipation and a coordinated turn and bank that worked very well...The system was later further developed by Marine Systems Corp. If you do use a mechanical control system with surface feelers, I highly recommend...control flaps and not incidence of the foil."

There's Marine Corps landing craft on foils -- even a DUKW on foils: 35 Knots!