Marine Patrol, Friday Night (4rth) at Weirs

Mr. Moyer · 07-08-2008, 06:50 AM

I must agree with jrc on this matter. I for one am very pleased with the MP on Winnie, but have to admit that I am not for eliminnating my rights to random checks. As mentioned in my last enry, I did deserve to get pulled over, due to a safety light which was burned out. I deem this a reason to be pulled over and well they are discussing the infraction, to pull the saftey check, registrataion pull and the such. The one thing I am against is unannounced bui checks and random stops. This a major deterent yes, but can serve a greater harm to the community.
We have discussed on numerous threads how the local economy is hurting. I ask any retail/ restaurant business owner to answer honestly if they want dui/bui/safety checkpoints in front of their establishment. The obvious answer is no. This will deter customers from coming. Yes I agree that the drunk patrons are not needed by any establishment and in my opinion anyone operating drunk on the lake should be ashamed of themselves knowing the dangers. The problem is those law abiding citizens, who go out for a beer or dinner and just don't want to be hassled, by random stops or the consequential safety check.

I'll give an example. Last week I was going to go to lunch in Wolfboro both days. After the first day, I was approached by someone at the docks and was told be careful, MP was doing random safety checks all weekend. Since I wasn't sure if my fire extinguisher was charged or that all of my safety equip was up to date, I hottailed it out of there and decided not to risk it the next morning. Turns out it was a voluntary safety chech from a helpful group on the lake and not MP, but the point is that I didn't go back and spend $75-$100 at the dock area the next day, we stayed at the cabin instead.
It turns out from my MP stop the next weekend that all of my info was up to date and my extinguisher was charged.
This is a factor that I haven't seen mentioned by anyone. I'm assuming no one owns a retail business where theyre have been a history of DUI stops or even police in the area. There was actually a lawsuit in FLA around a routine weekend dui stop that put a restaurant out of business. Don't have the link, but something to think about. As mentioned earlier, I would think there are so many great stories about the MP on this lake. They seem to get it, I think the reason for this thread was to alert anyone to the concerns of random stops on numerous fronts. just my 10 cents worth.

Kona Family · 07-08-2008, 09:29 AM

Sounds like everyone agrees MP should be very active pulling over violators. However, do they still have the right to pull over any boater without reason? I know last year they could pull over any boat, any time whether you did something wrong or not and proceed to inspect your vessel, safety equipment, etc.

kchace · 07-08-2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kona Family

Sounds like everyone agrees MP should be very active pulling over violators. However, do they still have the right to pull over any boater without reason? I know last year they could pull over any boat, any time whether you did something wrong or not and proceed to inspect your vessel, safety equipment, etc.

This is my understanding. If its different now, I'd like to know the details and the source - not hearsay.

Ken

NightWing · 07-08-2008, 09:50 AM

Marine Patrol has the authority to perform safety checks anytime. Past practice has been that a boat will not be stopped just for an inspection but every boat stopped will be inspected.

If you still question the NHMP policy, why not call them and ask a supervisor?

293-2037

Rattlesnake Guy · 07-08-2008, 07:41 PM

I am happy to say that we have never been stopped. Now that the boys are older and more likely to be out alone than not, I should remind them where all the stuff is that they would get asked about if stopped.

Is my list complete of what they will ask for?

Boat Registration
Boater Education Certificate
Life Vest for every passenger
Throw-able Ring or Cushion
Fire Extinguisher
Horn or Whistle

Anything else they ask for???

Thanks and safe boating

jrc · 07-08-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

I am happy to say that we have never been stopped. Now that the boys are older and more likely to be out alone than not, I should remind them where all the stuff is that they would get asked about if stopped.

Is my list complete of what they will ask for?

Boat Registration
Boater Education Certificate
Life Vest for every passenger
Throw-able Ring or Cushion
Fire Extinguisher
Horn or Whistle

Anything else they ask for???

Thanks and safe boating

If you are in a motor boat over 26'
You need two fire extinguishers, one can be fixed in the engine space
You also need a bell and a whistle, hand, mouth or powered (I think your boat horn counts as a powered whistle)

If you are in a motor boat over 40'
You need three fire extinguishers, one can be fixed in the engine space
You still need a bell and a powered whistle (again, I think your boat horn counts)

Plus they can check that the lights work. They have to work even if you never plan to go out at night.

Mike M. · 07-13-2008, 04:35 PM

Has anyone confirmed whether the MP can legally stop you without a reason? Any links would be appreciated.

Thank you

Mr. Moyer · 07-13-2008, 05:27 PM

KJ bath,

As I'm sure you read in my post, I was stopped the following day and had all of my appropriate equiptment on board. The concern I have is that some obsure rule or a new ordinance, or whatever costs me a couple of hundred dollars that i would rather not spend for the MP college fund. I'm pretty good about trying to upkeep the boat, but it is by far not my largest priority in life. I am in the midst of rehabbing a house in Alton, so some things get missed.
I don't have anywhere near the faith that you do in our MP's intentions. They are having a slow year, so they are more likly to pull over boats. This is a quote of an MP officer to my fiend who got stopped sat on his way from rattlesnake to west alton marina because of speed in a pontoon boat whose max speed is 35 mph. Ironically he also had out of state registration. My concern is not that I'm doing anything wrong, but that I missed something by accident etc. and it costs me hard earned money.

Would you feel the same if a cop pulled you over randomly to check to see if your registration was up to date without just cause. I don't think you would, but I don't know you personally. I can only speak for myself and my response to that is, leve me alone unless I'm doing something illegal or dangerous or both.

As you recall the stop was justified (my nav lites were out), so I certaintly don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with harrassing stops, to accomplish quotas or to justify the mp time spent on the water. I think the only justification needed is that all stay safe. I will rarely chastise the MP, because I do appreciate their efforts and think there job in most case is thankless.
Hope you all had a great weekend on the lake, I certaintly did and looking foreward to nice weather next weeknd. see you all out there,

NightWing · 07-13-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike M.

Has anyone confirmed whether the MP can legally stop you without a reason? Any links would be appreciated.

Thank you

You don't need a link. It has been posted here dozens of times. If you can't find the answer or don't believe it, make the call.

293-2037

Mike M. · 07-13-2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

You don't need a link. It has been posted here dozens of times. If you can't find the answer or don't believe it, make the call.

293-2037

It has nothing to do with believing what I'm reading, my confusion is because I have just read multiple responses to my question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kchane

Actually, the rules for pulling over a car and a boat are completely different. The MP (or Coast Guard et al) do not need ANY reason at all to stop a boat and check it out. Here is one RSA that I found that mentions the matter. There are federal laws as well that essentially say the same thing that apply when in Coast Guard patrolled waters.

270-D:6 Inspections. – All vessels afloat on public waters may be inspected by the commissioner or his duly authorized representative, to determine their seaworthiness and safety equipment at any time. No person shall allow any vessel which fails to pass such inspection to be used or operated on the waters of this state until brought into compliance.

Notice that it says "at any time" and that there are no prerequisites.

Here is a link to the CG rule:

http://uscgboating.org/safety/fedreqs/law_board.htm

Ken

and...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

I believe a recent NH Supreme Court decision said that was incorrect. NH police including NHMP need probable cause for stops. No more random "safety inspections" was the main result. It's possible they can do BWI check-points the same as land police do for DWI, and they have been accused of "forcing" '150ft rule' violations to justify a stop.

Once they stop your boat for anything they can then do a safety check and if they observe behaviors that indicate intoxicaton, or turn up other violations, they can act. This is probably something a good lawyer could get thrown out if you can afford to fight it through apeals. I'm sure our legal expert, Skip, will clarifiy this if I'm too far off the mark. Still it's safer to behave than trust the court will see it your way.

So I guess I’m just confused because of my ignorance of the law.

States should have jurisdiction over federal law, but clearly federal law is enforced in states that have deemed some federal laws unconstitutional.

So if NH supreme court upholds our constitutional rights but there is a federal law allowing the coast guard to inspect any boat, does that mean you could potentially be stopped and searched in NH waters by the coast guard 'legally'?

I guess I will just give them a call tomorrow to find out.

Airwaves · 07-13-2008, 09:53 PM

Mike M
This took me a while to understand as well.

1. Lake Winnipesaukee is NOT a federal waterway. Therefore Coast Guard rules and regulations do not apply.

2. While the Coast Guard can stop a vessel at any time for any reason especially now under Homeland Security Rules there are no Coast Guard vessels on Lake Winnipesaukee.

3. If you are stopped by a NH Marine Patrol boat ask them, nicely, why they are stopping you. If they say a "routine safety check" then I would (again nicely) question their authority to stop you for a "routine safety check" by contacting THEIR SUPERVISOR FIRST via Cell or VHF.

4. If you can not contact their supervisor then submit to the routine safety check, write down the officer's name(s), note the time, possition and exactly what happened in your log.

Did you know all boats are supposed to carry logs and record their voyages? Not many boaters keep a log on Lake Winnipesaukee but it certainly comes in handy in cases like this.

I believe in NH you can record the stop on video but NOT NOT NOT audio so turning on your cellphone video function is NOT a good idea!

Then question what happened with someone knowledgeable about these things....a lawyer you know casually, show them your log.

If you (everyone on Lake Winnipesaukee) don't keep a log on your boat I'd start today since next year the new law HB847 take effect and will impact your drivers license.

A properly maintained "ship's" log can be considered a legal document but something hit and miss won't be considered. Every time you leave the dock write it down and keep it on board. (notebook is fine) Departure date and time, weather, destination, I'd suggest listing POB but perhaps a number of POB is better than names in some cases?, arrival, departure, arrival if you get a cell call note the time (not necessarly from whom or why) and especially anything unusual.

Do it beginning today faithfully and until the day you sell the boat and even note the sale of the boat! Keep the log and your "ship's" log is a legal document. If you only do it now and again or only when you're stopped...it won't help at all.

kjbathe · 07-14-2008, 09:15 AM

With all due respect, step 3 amounts to the inverse golden rule. You start being a jerk by questioning the officer's authority to make the stop and the officer will gladly oblige -- as is human nature -- and return in kind. I've known too many law enforcement officials to know anything other than if you help them do their job, they'll help you. But start being a pain about it and wasting their time, and any incentive to be helpful will be lost. That's the point where you get the summons or fine and they just move on. Life's too short for any of us to be dealing with jerks at work. MP is no different.

And I can't believe I'm really reading a suggestion on this forum that we should keep ships logs on the lake, make sure they are legally up to snuff, potentially engage counsel and, IMO, foster an adversarial us vs. them mentality with Marine Patrol.

If you're doing what you're supposed to be doing then MP just becomes another boater out there, the only difference being they have a light bar and we don't. Golden rule, folks. Golden rule....

NightWing · 07-14-2008, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

3. If you are stopped by a NH Marine Patrol boat ask them, nicely, why they are stopping you. If they say a "routine safety check" then I would (again nicely) question their authority to stop you for a "routine safety check" by contacting THEIR SUPERVISOR FIRST via Cell or VHF.

Marine Patrol has the authority to stop any vessel at any time to perform a safety inspection. That has been posted here before.

However, their policy has been not to stop a boat for an inspection, but to inspect every boat that is stopped. That has also been posted before.

The officer should tell you the reason for the stop. Shortly thereafter, he/she will begin a safety check.

For some reason, that initial conversation is forgotten by many posters here and all they can remember is the safety inspection....and that evolves into a statement that they were stopped for a safety inspection which is not the case.

If anybody doubts the policy, call NHMP. 293-2037

jrc · 07-14-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

Marine Patrol has the authority to stop any vessel at any time to perform a safety inspection. That has been posted here before.

And refuted here before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

However, their policy has been not to stop a boat for an inspection, but to inspect every boat that is stopped. That has also been posted before.

And refuted here before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

If anybody doubts the policy, call NHMP. 293-2037

Always good advice

Airwaves · 07-14-2008, 12:55 PM

Where did I tell anyone to be a jerk? I said nicely! There are ways to do step number three without being a jerk!

As for questioning authority, I believe I read on this forum over the past couple of years the story of a NHMP officer stopping one of our members for violation of the safe passage law in which the NHMP officer told the forum member that 150 feet was the length of THREE FOOTBALL FIELDS!

Earlier this summer someone posted that the NHMP told them his 16 year old was required to wear a life jacket.

They make mistakes and if you call HQ to question their decision there should be no problem as long as you're not a jerk.

As for my suggestiong about carrying and maintaining a ships log, do what you want but if something happens and I'm not just talking about a run in with the NHMP a properly maintained log can be helpful.

Mee-n-Mac · 07-14-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

Marine Patrol has the authority to stop any vessel at any time to perform a safety inspection. That has been posted here before.
{snip}

If anybody doubts the policy, call NHMP. 293-2037

I suggest you make that call. If I understand it properly, in NH v McKeown the Supreme Court ruled that the defendant had been "stopped" and therefore normal operating procedures, consistent with the laws of NH, must be applied. From the link below .... (emphasis added my me)

"SOP 2010 requires that "Marine Patrol Officers must operate in a uniform manner, consistent with applicable statutes and case law in conducting routine operations relating to stopping and detaining boaters on public waters." The SOP instructs officers that "boats shall not be stopped on the public waters for purely discretionary reasons." It further provides, in relevant part, that "[t]here must exist in the opinion of the Marine Patrol Officer, at a minimum, an articulable suspicion that the operator, or other occupant of the boat is in violation of some criminal or boating law, rule, or regulation; . . . or that the boat lacks the required safety equipment." As defined by the SOP, articulable suspicion includes, but is not limited to, "visual, audible, tactile, or other sensations experienced by the officer, which give rise to an apprehension on the officer’s part, that the conditions" set forth above exist."

http://www.nh.gov/judiciary/supreme/...4/mckeo073.htm

Whether you agree (or not) that the PFD inquiry was a "stop" or whether there was sufficient cause to be "stopped", the law stands that you can't be stopped unless there's good reason to suspect you're in violation of some rule or regulation.

NightWing · 07-14-2008, 04:04 PM

M&M, please don't take that out of context. I posted the fact that boats are not stopped just for inspection, even though the authority exists. The post was in reply to those countless questions and remarks about being stopped for an inspection. No, there must be a valid reason to stop the boat and once stopped and the violation discussed, the boat will be inspected.

HomeWood · 07-14-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Mike M

3. If you are stopped by a NH Marine Patrol boat ask them, nicely, why they are stopping you. If they say a "routine safety check" then I would (again nicely) question their authority to stop you for a "routine safety check" by contacting THEIR SUPERVISOR FIRST via Cell or VHF.

I also suggest doing this if you really want a ticket for some reason.

Nightwing is right, call if you don't believe it. This thread is getting a little repetitive with the "Can the MP really stop you at any time?" questions. Like in court....asked and answered.

I suggest being polite and cooperative the entire time even if you disagree and even if you get a ticket. Calling a supervisor for any questions is done AFTER the stop, not during. Then again....what do I know?

Airwaves · 07-14-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Homewood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves
Mike M

3. If you are stopped by a NH Marine Patrol boat ask them, nicely, why they are stopping you. If they say a "routine safety check" then I would (again nicely) question their authority to stop you for a "routine safety check" by contacting THEIR SUPERVISOR FIRST via Cell or VHF.

I also suggest doing this if you really want a ticket for some reason.

Nightwing is right, call if you don't believe it. This thread is getting a little repetitive with the "Can the MP really stop you at any time?" questions. Like in court....asked and answered.

I suggest being polite and cooperative the entire time even if you disagree and even if you get a ticket. Calling a supervisor for any questions is done AFTER the stop, not during. Then again....what do I know?

The only thing I have to say about that is that I understand from reading past posts that you're in law enforcement.

It's a pretty sad indictment against your own profession to suggest that every officer that stops you is petty and vendictive enough to punish someone for politely going to a more knowledgeable superior officer for a ruling. If that is the norm then something is very very wrong with the hiring practices of that community/agency.

Silver Duck · 07-14-2008, 07:09 PM

Here's a slightly different spin on this question. I know darned well that I'll pass a standard safety check. But, I think that we all know that the legal requirements are somewhat "minimalistic".

I'd be very interested in discussing, with one of the "old pros" that have been in the MP for a while, what other safety-related items that it would be a real good idea to have along but which I haven't thought of.

So, is it possible to arrange such a discussion without fouling up and getting stopped?

Silver Duck

HomeWood · 07-14-2008, 11:46 PM

Yup, you figured it out, I am. Do whatever you want if you are stopped, but starting off a legal stop with an argument (however polite it might be) will never be in your favor. Here's a general rule in the world of policing for us. If an officer makes a perfectly legal traffic or boat stop and the driver starts arguing over the legality of it or they argue that they didn't do whatever it was, the officer will 99.9% of the time write a ticket to cover his or her own behind (I do). If they don't write a ticket and the person complains, it can make the officer look bad in different ways. I would love to host a public forum for a Q & A session about how policing really works. I enjoy your posts Airwaves and I'm sure your a great person. But when I see (in my opinion) poor advice, I like to speak up and hopefully save somebody a ticket. That's right, SAVE somebody from getting one. I'm not a power tripping, trigger happy, "book 'em Danno" kind of cop you might think I am. It's just my opinion and I respect yours.

HomeWood · 07-14-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Duck

So, is it possible to arrange such a discussion without fouling up and getting stopped?
Silver Duck

Absolutely, I'm sure they would be more than happy to inspect your boat or go over a list of required items. If you voluntarily go ask for their help on what you need to be legal and if they were to find something wrong....I bet you'd get a friendly reminder and gold star on your safety certificate for trying to be a responsible and safe boater.

JDeere · 07-15-2008, 06:27 AM

I was "stopped" by MP in a different state. Well not stopped I was broken down. MP came by and asked what was wrong and asked for my registration. Wouldn't you know it..........I forgot my registration...grabbed the wrong keys. He explained why I had just broken the law. Then he went on to explain why he could not tow me to the docks. Actually he must have told me 10 times why he could not do it.

Told him that I understood and that I would not even dream of asking him.

Guess what? A few minutes later he tows me back to the docks with a smile and gives me a friendly reminder to make sure I have my registration with me.

I honestly did not expect or ask for a tow AND I did expect a ticket on the registration issue but I was nice and he was nice...funny how that goes.

Wolfeboro_Baja · 07-15-2008, 08:57 AM

JDeere, it's nice to hear about the pleasant interactions with police or MP in situations like yours. Frequently, we only hear about the bad. Sounds like his PR ratings went up alot that day!!

I've not yet been stopped by MP for anything (not that I'm looking to be stopped but I've probably just cursed myself now!) but I've had a couple of brief conversations when I've seen them tied up at a public dock. I've always found them to be polite, courteous and a wealth of information.

Mike M. · 07-16-2008, 01:08 PM

Airwaves, thank you for the response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

3. If you are stopped by a NH Marine Patrol boat ask them, nicely, why they are stopping you. If they say a "routine safety check" then I would (again nicely) question their authority to stop you for a "routine safety check" by contacting THEIR SUPERVISOR FIRST via Cell or VHF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomeWood

I also suggest doing this if you really want a ticket for some reason.

Nightwing is right, call if you don't believe it. This thread is getting a little repetitive with the "Can the MP really stop you at any time?" questions. Like in court....asked and answered.

I suggest being polite and cooperative the entire time even if you disagree and even if you get a ticket. Calling a supervisor for any questions is done AFTER the stop, not during. Then again....what do I know?

HomeWood - If you pulled me over for speeding and I simply said "Officer, what is the reason for the stop?" You would be more likely write me a ticket for asking a question?

I did call Marine Patrol head quarters to verify what you said. I strongly disliked the response I received. I just can't believe in the "live free or die" state my 4th amendment is waived at their discretion.

NightWing · 07-16-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike M.

I did call Marine Patrol head quarters to verify what you said. I strongly disliked the response I received. I just can't believe in the "live free or die" state my 4th amendment is waived at their discretion.

So, what was the response you received?

Mike M. · 07-16-2008, 02:46 PM

I was told by the MP Officer:
They have the right to pull over any boat...

I was assured they do not exercise that authority.

NightWing · 07-16-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike M.

I was told by the MP Officer:
They have the right to pull over any boat...

I was assured they do not exercise that authority.

And that is exactly what has been posted previously. Why did you take offense at that? They can but don't.

jrc · 07-16-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWing

And that is exactly what has been posted previously. Why did you take offense at that? They can but don't.

How could a US and NH citizen not take offense? A member of the NH Marine Patrol states that he has powers that the NH Supreme Court and the MP's own standard operating procedures clearly say that he doesn't.

From the posted appeal link:

"At trial, Officer Cook testified:

When I - - when I come by and I raise my life jacket, my fluorescent orange PFD, and the person doesn’t either pull one out and do something, that gives me articulable suspicion that he doesn’t have one on board or he can’t find it. So I wait in time, I do not stop - - I do not stop people, I drive by until they show that they don’t have it. Or they can’t find it. That’s when I pull over."

So the officer admits he needs articulable suspicion to make a stop. Now this case was tossed because of his little trick. The state tries to say that the person was free to leave without answering the officers request, but clearly the officer would have used that as a reason to stop and search.

Think about living in a world where refusing to answer questions from the police was enough evidence to allow them to search you and your belongings.

Mike M. · 07-16-2008, 03:55 PM

I take offense that they can, I appreciate that they don’t.

The reason I find that offensive is pretty simple, it is making the assumption that you are guilty of something until you have proven yourself innocent...

NightWing · 07-16-2008, 05:47 PM

Get past that. Driveby canoe and kayak checks used to be fairly common since a number of drownings in the spring and fall resulted from capsizing or falling out of a canoe. PFDs were not always found. However, it isn't done anymore as far as enforcement goes. And yes, the authority to stop at any time still exists.

It seems that many people equate their own experience with MP with that court case which has been beaten to death. They feel that their rights have been violated when stopped "for no reason." Well, there was a reason and it was a legitimate one or you wouldn't have been stopped. Pay attention to what the officer says when he or she first comes alongside. Whatever the infraction was, the boat will still get a safety inspection, regardless of any action taken on the reason for the stop.

Remember, there are many reasons to stop a vessel other than safe passage, as there are many reasons to stop a motor vehicle other than speeding.

Enjoy the lake, enjoy your boat. Nobody is out to get you and your rights are not being infringed upon. (generic statement not aimed at anyone.)

Mee-n-Mac · 07-16-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike M.

I take offense that they can, I appreciate that they don’t.

The reason I find that offensive is pretty simple, it is making the assumption that you are guilty of something until you have proven yourself innocent...

Oooo oooo let me play Constitutional Lawyer for a bit. I agree with you and I suspect that such a stop, if contested all the way to the Supreme Court, would result in a finding that such a broad power is contrary to the SCOTUS prior rulings on the 4'th and 14'th amendments. Even in a Terry Stop the officers must have some suspicion that wrongdoing is afoot. There's probably a reason why SOP2010 is on the books and I'll opine it's not because of some overwhelming concern for your Constitutional rights.

HomeWood · 07-16-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike M.

HomeWood - If you pulled me over for speeding and I simply said "Officer, what is the reason for the stop?" You would be more likely write me a ticket for asking a question?

This is the last comment I'll make on this because it's an endless debate, but asking that specific question alone will not get you a ticket. If you question the officers legal authority to stop you for speeding and then ask for a supervisor to verify it...I think it's safe to say that a pink copy would be issued. Like I say, Mr. John Q. Public always knows best

kjbathe · 07-08-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Moyer

Since I wasn't sure if my fire extinguisher was charged or that all of my safety equip was up to date, I hottailed it out of there

I appreciate and share the concerns folks have about protecting their individual rights and making sure searches are legal, but the quote above has me shaking my head.

If you're not sure your equipment is up to snuff, then you should just check it and find out before you go out. Not going to dinner or avoiding MP is missing the point. MP and operators both have the same goal here -- to make sure you have a functional fire extinguisher on board if, God forbid, you should ever need it. That way, he gets to tow in "Annoyed but safe Mr. Moyer" vs. "Charcoal Briquette Mr. Moyer."

I guess it's just perspective. I view MP as being able to confirm what I already know vs. being out to nab me for something I may have missed. I know I'm compliant with the law, but if MP wants to spend 30 minutes to validate my ability to operate and ensure the safety of my vessel, my passengers and those with whom I share the lake, welcome aboard! I know it sounds a little odd, but it's nice to have the second pair of eyes and sanity check that things are as they should be.

07-13-2008, 05:27 PM	#8
Mr. Moyer Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 49 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i find it hard to belive KJ bath, As I'm sure you read in my post, I was stopped the following day and had all of my appropriate equiptment on board. The concern I have is that some obsure rule or a new ordinance, or whatever costs me a couple of hundred dollars that i would rather not spend for the MP college fund. I'm pretty good about trying to upkeep the boat, but it is by far not my largest priority in life. I am in the midst of rehabbing a house in Alton, so some things get missed. I don't have anywhere near the faith that you do in our MP's intentions. They are having a slow year, so they are more likly to pull over boats. This is a quote of an MP officer to my fiend who got stopped sat on his way from rattlesnake to west alton marina because of speed in a pontoon boat whose max speed is 35 mph. Ironically he also had out of state registration. My concern is not that I'm doing anything wrong, but that I missed something by accident etc. and it costs me hard earned money. Would you feel the same if a cop pulled you over randomly to check to see if your registration was up to date without just cause. I don't think you would, but I don't know you personally. I can only speak for myself and my response to that is, leve me alone unless I'm doing something illegal or dangerous or both. As you recall the stop was justified (my nav lites were out), so I certaintly don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with harrassing stops, to accomplish quotas or to justify the mp time spent on the water. I think the only justification needed is that all stay safe. I will rarely chastise the MP, because I do appreciate their efforts and think there job in most case is thankless. Hope you all had a great weekend on the lake, I certaintly did and looking foreward to nice weather next weeknd. see you all out there,

07-13-2008, 09:53 PM	#11
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Mike M This took me a while to understand as well. 1. Lake Winnipesaukee is NOT a federal waterway. Therefore Coast Guard rules and regulations do not apply. 2. While the Coast Guard can stop a vessel at any time for any reason especially now under Homeland Security Rules there are no Coast Guard vessels on Lake Winnipesaukee. 3. If you are stopped by a NH Marine Patrol boat ask them, nicely, why they are stopping you. If they say a "routine safety check" then I would (again nicely) question their authority to stop you for a "routine safety check" by contacting THEIR SUPERVISOR FIRST via Cell or VHF. 4. If you can not contact their supervisor then submit to the routine safety check, write down the officer's name(s), note the time, possition and exactly what happened in your log. Did you know all boats are supposed to carry logs and record their voyages? Not many boaters keep a log on Lake Winnipesaukee but it certainly comes in handy in cases like this. I believe in NH you can record the stop on video but NOT NOT NOT audio so turning on your cellphone video function is NOT a good idea! Then question what happened with someone knowledgeable about these things....a lawyer you know casually, show them your log. If you (everyone on Lake Winnipesaukee) don't keep a log on your boat I'd start today since next year the new law HB847 take effect and will impact your drivers license. A properly maintained "ship's" log can be considered a legal document but something hit and miss won't be considered. Every time you leave the dock write it down and keep it on board. (notebook is fine) Departure date and time, weather, destination, I'd suggest listing POB but perhaps a number of POB is better than names in some cases?, arrival, departure, arrival if you get a cell call note the time (not necessarly from whom or why) and especially anything unusual. Do it beginning today faithfully and until the day you sell the boat and even note the sale of the boat! Keep the log and your "ship's" log is a legal document. If you only do it now and again or only when you're stopped...it won't help at all. Last edited by Airwaves; 07-13-2008 at 10:40 PM. Reason: paragraph

07-14-2008, 09:15 AM	#12
kjbathe Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 281 Thanks: 3 Thanked 21 Times in 11 Posts	Are you serious? With all due respect, step 3 amounts to the inverse golden rule. You start being a jerk by questioning the officer's authority to make the stop and the officer will gladly oblige -- as is human nature -- and return in kind. I've known too many law enforcement officials to know anything other than if you help them do their job, they'll help you. But start being a pain about it and wasting their time, and any incentive to be helpful will be lost. That's the point where you get the summons or fine and they just move on. Life's too short for any of us to be dealing with jerks at work. MP is no different. And I can't believe I'm really reading a suggestion on this forum that we should keep ships logs on the lake, make sure they are legally up to snuff, potentially engage counsel and, IMO, foster an adversarial us vs. them mentality with Marine Patrol. If you're doing what you're supposed to be doing then MP just becomes another boater out there, the only difference being they have a light bar and we don't. Golden rule, folks. Golden rule....

07-15-2008, 08:57 AM	#24
Wolfeboro_Baja Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Hopkinton NH Posts: 395 Thanks: 88 Thanked 80 Times in 46 Posts	JDeere, it's nice to hear about the pleasant interactions with police or MP in situations like yours. Frequently, we only hear about the bad. Sounds like his PR ratings went up alot that day!! I've not yet been stopped by MP for anything (not that I'm looking to be stopped but I've probably just cursed myself now!) but I've had a couple of brief conversations when I've seen them tied up at a public dock. I've always found them to be polite, courteous and a wealth of information. __________________ Cancer SUCKS!

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07-08-2008, 06:50 AM	#1
Mr. Moyer Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 49 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I must agree with jrc on this matter. I for one am very pleased with the MP on Winnie, but have to admit that I am not for eliminnating my rights to random checks. As mentioned in my last enry, I did deserve to get pulled over, due to a safety light which was burned out. I deem this a reason to be pulled over and well they are discussing the infraction, to pull the saftey check, registrataion pull and the such. The one thing I am against is unannounced bui checks and random stops. This a major deterent yes, but can serve a greater harm to the community. We have discussed on numerous threads how the local economy is hurting. I ask any retail/ restaurant business owner to answer honestly if they want dui/bui/safety checkpoints in front of their establishment. The obvious answer is no. This will deter customers from coming. Yes I agree that the drunk patrons are not needed by any establishment and in my opinion anyone operating drunk on the lake should be ashamed of themselves knowing the dangers. The problem is those law abiding citizens, who go out for a beer or dinner and just don't want to be hassled, by random stops or the consequential safety check. I'll give an example. Last week I was going to go to lunch in Wolfboro both days. After the first day, I was approached by someone at the docks and was told be careful, MP was doing random safety checks all weekend. Since I wasn't sure if my fire extinguisher was charged or that all of my safety equip was up to date, I hottailed it out of there and decided not to risk it the next morning. Turns out it was a voluntary safety chech from a helpful group on the lake and not MP, but the point is that I didn't go back and spend $75-$100 at the dock area the next day, we stayed at the cabin instead. It turns out from my MP stop the next weekend that all of my info was up to date and my extinguisher was charged. This is a factor that I haven't seen mentioned by anyone. I'm assuming no one owns a retail business where theyre have been a history of DUI stops or even police in the area. There was actually a lawsuit in FLA around a routine weekend dui stop that put a restaurant out of business. Don't have the link, but something to think about. As mentioned earlier, I would think there are so many great stories about the MP on this lake. They seem to get it, I think the reason for this thread was to alert anyone to the concerns of random stops on numerous fronts. just my 10 cents worth.

07-08-2008, 09:29 AM	#2
Kona Family Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sounds like everyone agrees MP should be very active pulling over violators. However, do they still have the right to pull over any boater without reason? I know last year they could pull over any boat, any time whether you did something wrong or not and proceed to inspect your vessel, safety equipment, etc.

07-08-2008, 09:50 AM	#4
NightWing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 410 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Marine Patrol has the authority to perform safety checks anytime. Past practice has been that a boat will not be stopped just for an inspection but every boat stopped will be inspected. If you still question the NHMP policy, why not call them and ask a supervisor? 293-2037

07-08-2008, 07:41 PM	#5
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	I am happy to say that we have never been stopped. Now that the boys are older and more likely to be out alone than not, I should remind them where all the stuff is that they would get asked about if stopped. Is my list complete of what they will ask for? Boat Registration Boater Education Certificate Life Vest for every passenger Throw-able Ring or Cushion Fire Extinguisher Horn or Whistle Anything else they ask for??? Thanks and safe boating

07-13-2008, 04:35 PM	#7
Mike M. Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 40 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Has anyone confirmed whether the MP can legally stop you without a reason? Any links would be appreciated. Thank you

07-14-2008, 12:55 PM	#15
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Where did I tell anyone to be a jerk? I said nicely! There are ways to do step number three without being a jerk! As for questioning authority, I believe I read on this forum over the past couple of years the story of a NHMP officer stopping one of our members for violation of the safe passage law in which the NHMP officer told the forum member that 150 feet was the length of THREE FOOTBALL FIELDS! Earlier this summer someone posted that the NHMP told them his 16 year old was required to wear a life jacket. They make mistakes and if you call HQ to question their decision there should be no problem as long as you're not a jerk. As for my suggestiong about carrying and maintaining a ships log, do what you want but if something happens and I'm not just talking about a run in with the NHMP a properly maintained log can be helpful.

07-14-2008, 04:04 PM	#17
NightWing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 410 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	M&M, please don't take that out of context. I posted the fact that boats are not stopped just for inspection, even though the authority exists. The post was in reply to those countless questions and remarks about being stopped for an inspection. No, there must be a valid reason to stop the boat and once stopped and the violation discussed, the boat will be inspected.

07-14-2008, 07:09 PM	#20
Silver Duck Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica, MA Posts: 364 Thanks: 40 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Here's a slightly different spin on this question. I know darned well that I'll pass a standard safety check. But, I think that we all know that the legal requirements are somewhat "minimalistic". I'd be very interested in discussing, with one of the "old pros" that have been in the MP for a while, what other safety-related items that it would be a real good idea to have along but which I haven't thought of. So, is it possible to arrange such a discussion without fouling up and getting stopped? Silver Duck

07-14-2008, 11:46 PM	#21
HomeWood Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Clayton,NC / Sanbornton,NH Posts: 611 Thanks: 126 Thanked 137 Times in 75 Posts	Yup, you figured it out, I am. Do whatever you want if you are stopped, but starting off a legal stop with an argument (however polite it might be) will never be in your favor. Here's a general rule in the world of policing for us. If an officer makes a perfectly legal traffic or boat stop and the driver starts arguing over the legality of it or they argue that they didn't do whatever it was, the officer will 99.9% of the time write a ticket to cover his or her own behind (I do). If they don't write a ticket and the person complains, it can make the officer look bad in different ways. I would love to host a public forum for a Q & A session about how policing really works. I enjoy your posts Airwaves and I'm sure your a great person. But when I see (in my opinion) poor advice, I like to speak up and hopefully save somebody a ticket. That's right, SAVE somebody from getting one. I'm not a power tripping, trigger happy, "book 'em Danno" kind of cop you might think I am. It's just my opinion and I respect yours.

07-15-2008, 06:27 AM	#23
JDeere Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 295 Thanks: 74 Thanked 52 Times in 25 Posts	I was "stopped" by MP in a different state. Well not stopped I was broken down. MP came by and asked what was wrong and asked for my registration. Wouldn't you know it..........I forgot my registration...grabbed the wrong keys. He explained why I had just broken the law. Then he went on to explain why he could not tow me to the docks. Actually he must have told me 10 times why he could not do it. Told him that I understood and that I would not even dream of asking him. Guess what? A few minutes later he tows me back to the docks with a smile and gives me a friendly reminder to make sure I have my registration with me. I honestly did not expect or ask for a tow AND I did expect a ticket on the registration issue but I was nice and he was nice...funny how that goes.

07-16-2008, 02:46 PM	#27
Mike M. Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 40 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I was told by the MP Officer: They have the right to pull over any boat... I was assured they do not exercise that authority.

07-16-2008, 03:55 PM	#30
Mike M. Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 40 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I take offense that they can, I appreciate that they don’t. The reason I find that offensive is pretty simple, it is making the assumption that you are guilty of something until you have proven yourself innocent...

07-16-2008, 05:47 PM	#31
NightWing Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 410 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Get past that. Driveby canoe and kayak checks used to be fairly common since a number of drownings in the spring and fall resulted from capsizing or falling out of a canoe. PFDs were not always found. However, it isn't done anymore as far as enforcement goes. And yes, the authority to stop at any time still exists. It seems that many people equate their own experience with MP with that court case which has been beaten to death. They feel that their rights have been violated when stopped "for no reason." Well, there was a reason and it was a legitimate one or you wouldn't have been stopped. Pay attention to what the officer says when he or she first comes alongside. Whatever the infraction was, the boat will still get a safety inspection, regardless of any action taken on the reason for the stop. Remember, there are many reasons to stop a vessel other than safe passage, as there are many reasons to stop a motor vehicle other than speeding. Enjoy the lake, enjoy your boat. Nobody is out to get you and your rights are not being infringed upon. (generic statement not aimed at anyone.)