Wolfeboro Tax Rate

[nightrider]

I'm just climbing back up off the floor after receiving my 2nd half of the year tax bill. The rate increased by nearly a dollar a thousand, most of it being in the Local-School portion. How is the town justifying this huge increase for schools?? Assessment and tax rate increases have increased taxes by roughly 75% in the last 10 years in Wolfeboro. It seems the Town would prefer long time residents on fixed incomes who can't afford the tax increases, to move to make way for wealthy people from Massachusetts with their money, mindset and attitude. Good luck Wolfachusetts.

[Major]

Originally Posted by nightrider

I'm just climbing back up off the floor after receiving my 2nd half of the year tax bill. The rate increased by nearly a dollar a thousand, most of it being in the Local-School portion. How is the town justifying this huge increase for schools?? Assessment and tax rate increases have increased taxes by roughly 75% in the last 10 years in Wolfeboro. It seems the Town would prefer long time residents on fixed incomes who can't afford the tax increases, to move to make way for wealthy people from Massachusetts with their money, mindset and attitude. Good luck Wolfachusetts.

It's for the children! Get used to it. NH's value system is being hijacked from transplants from Massachusetts. At first, they love the fact that there are no income or state taxes, but then they realize that beyond schools, roads, police and firefighting services, there isn't a lot of money left over for all of the services they were used to receiving in Mass. NH is now a blue state. Look forward to bigger government and taxes. I suggest you move to Moultonborough, which has a lot of water properties so a lower tax rate.

[Rusty]

The school and town budget was dicussed many times before finally being approved by the residents of Wolfeboro, so why are you so surprised about the increase??

[Descant]

For most towns, the school and Town meeting (voting) is the second Tuesday in March. The budget Committee and the School Board are developing next year's budget right now. Go to their meetings and run for a seat on one of those boards.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Rusty

The school and town budget was dicussed many times before finally being approved by the residents of Wolfeboro, so why are you so surprised about the increase??

Old people don't like to pay for schools because they don't have kids in school anymore but education is the back bone of the country. Without it we are all doomed to mediocrity.
I'm not sure if Wolfeboro has it but some towns give seniors citizen home owners a discount on their taxes which helps ease the pain. They should do that in all cities and towns, IMO.

[garysanfran]

Like those in CA (or MA), you're screwed.

"Give me a log to sit on and Aristotle as my teacher and I'll have the best school in the world"...

or something like that...

[FlyingScot]

nightrider/Major--it's all good sport for you to blame "wealthy people from Massachusetts" for increasing your tax bill. But let's remember that wealthy people from Massachusetts are subsidizing the lake school systems with huge property values for their second homes which do not include any children in the school system.

I'm not suggesting that the tax appraisals be different, only pointing out that if you're a year-rounder, you're getting a much better deal than the Mass people you blame.

[Major]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

nightrider/Major--it's all good sport for you to blame "wealthy people from Massachusetts" for increasing your tax bill. But let's remember that wealthy people from Massachusetts are subsidizing the lake school systems with huge property values for their second homes which do not include any children in the school system.

I'm not suggesting that the tax appraisals be different, only pointing out that if you're a year-rounder, you're getting a much better deal than the Mass people you blame.

I think your post is a little misguided. I never blamed "wealthy people" from Mass. The amount of people who have moved to NH from Mass over the past 20 years is staggering. Most of them live in southern NH, not in central NH. In fact, the population from the Lakes Region north has been stagnant over the past 20+ years.

I grew up here. "Live Free or Die" is not just a motto but was a way of life. Self-reliance and liberty were core values in NH. Those values have changed with the influx of people from Mass. It is their expectation of government that is creating the high property taxes. Instead of going to schools, roads and police/fire protection, our money is now being spent on social programs, rehabilitation facilities, Section 8 housing, local jails, etc.

[Merrymeeting]

Consider yourself lucky. Wolfeboro has one of the lowest tax rates in the state.

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.htm

[tis]

A few weeks ago a GWRSD meeting was held with selectmen attending from the towns of the district. The selectmen were asking the school board to consider a budget committee just as the towns had. Obviously the school board didn't much like the idea. Most of the selectmen felt that there wasn't much oversight for the school district because nobody bothers to attend the meetings. (And even if they did, I don't know how much good it would do.) I think the school budget for the district is around fifty million a year. The schools are the biggest part of the property tax. But watch out. Last year Cordella and others filed a bill to have the richer towns pay a lot more. Tuftonboro and Wolfeboro would have been hit really hard. Moultonboro too, but not quite as much as the other two.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by tis

A few weeks ago a GWRSD meeting was held with selectmen attending from the towns of the district. The selectmen were asking the school board to consider a budget committee just as the towns had. Obviously the school board didn't much like the idea. Most of the selectmen felt that there wasn't much oversight for the school district because nobody bothers to attend the meetings. (And even if they did, I don't know how much good it would do.) I think the school budget for the district is around fifty million a year. The schools are the biggest part of the property tax. But watch out. Last year Cordella and others filed a bill to have the richer towns pay a lot more. Tuftonboro and Wolfeboro would have been hit really hard. Moultonboro too, but not quite as much as the other two.

It wasn't the GWRSD that held the meeting, it was the GWRSB Finance commitee that held the meeting. Therefore the GWRSD does have a budget committee which is called the Finance Commitee.
Here are the minutes of the meeting of the Finance Commitee:

GWRSB Finance Committee Meeting Notes
Time, Date and Location of Meeting
7:00 pm – September 6, 2018 – Lakes Region Technology Center
Attending
GWRSB Finance Committee: Jack Widmer – Team Leader, Bridge Edwards, Dr. James Manning,
Stacy Trites. Administration: Superintendent Kathy Cuddy-Egbert, Business Administrator Kathy
O’Blenes. Selectmen: Brookfield- Rich Zacher; New Durham- David Swenson; Ossipee- Richard
Morgan; Tuftonboro- Lloyd Wood; Wolfeboro- Linda Murray, Brad Harriman, Paul O’Brien.
Community Members: Ernie Brown, Tim Eldridge, Jonathan Smith, Deborah Yeaton, Ed Comeau
- Government Oversite, Peter Pijoin - Wolfeboro Community TV, Elissa Paquette - Granite State
News.
Note Taker: Linda Murphy, School Board Secretary
Subject Matter
Overview of the School District budget process and School District cooperative formula.
Discussion/Decisions
Mr. Widmer explained the budget process. A budget sheet was distributed; the same format that is
published in newspapers and printed in the bulk mailing. Over 75% of the budget is people driven
with fixed costs. Mr. Morgan said his frustration is that the tax rate increases each year due to the
school portion and there was discussion as to why the Ossipee portion increased. Mr. Morgan said
the District needs to look at what the towns offer their employees for health insurance He said the
District contributes toward health insurance needs to change and such changes are usually phased in
over time. He said he would like to see a District Budget Committee. Mr. Swenson said the budget
has exceeded CPI for the last couple of years and with a declining enrollment this does not make
sense to him. Mr. Zacher asked how people can access the line items. Rather than having to call the
SAU Office he said he would like the report available on-line. Discussion on the budget lasted for
approximately one hour. It was decided that the towns would have a representative attend finance
committee meetings to provide suggestions and input. They will send a name to the SAU Office so
they can be added to the meeting notice list.
The cooperative formula was discussed. It is based on a 75/25 formula; 75% is determined by
average daily membership and 25% is equalized valuation. Tuition students were discussed and Mr.
Zacher asked how they impact the formula which is an increase in revenue and decreases what
needs to be raised in taxes. Each year there increase goes up by the same percentages as the general
fund. Mr. Woods asked about the savings on the bond last year. Mr. Widmer said the interest on the
bank bond was renegotiated to a lower rate (savings of $90,000 this year and going forward). Mr.
O’Brien asked how the District was able to reduce the energy budget and asked if the numbers are
trackable and real. Mr. Widmer and Mr. Brown said the District performed and energy audit and
energy conservation work over the years. He is interested in outcomes on the energy savings,
student teacher head count trends and ratios, and data on our students outcome.
Adjournment Recorded By
8:24 pm
Linda Murphy, School Board Secretary
Approved by Finance Committee 9/17/18

[8gv]

While I admittedly have no dog in this fight...can the abbreviations be decoded please?

[nightrider]

A tax increase of $800 to $1,000 every year is excessive any way you look at it.

[kawishiwi]

All the tax loving liberals in Wolfeboro just voted for Republicans for Governor & U.S. Representative.
This appears to be true for all of the other (Winni) lakeside towns.

[tcoffey]

Originally Posted by Merrymeeting

Consider yourself lucky. Wolfeboro has one of the lowest tax rates in the state.



https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.htm

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[Descant]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Old people don't like to pay for schools because they don't have kids in school anymore but education is the back bone of the country. Without it we are all doomed to mediocrity.
I'm not sure if Wolfeboro has it but some towns give seniors citizen home owners a discount on their taxes which helps ease the pain. They should do that in all cities and towns, IMO.

In NH , Towns can only modify taxes if the legislature gives permission. You can get a small break, if Town Meeting allows it, for being a veteran, for example. Not much else. Every session, there are bills to ease the burden for this group or that, but easing it for one adds to the burden for another. Bill fails.

[tis]

Rusty, you are right, however they are part of the existing school board. And they had the meeting because of all the talk of overseeing coast rises. And the selectmen's point (especially imo, the selectmen from Ossipee) is that theyreally would like a separate budget committee that is independent. My feeling (and i watched the whole meeting) was that the school board said feel free to come to our meetings but we don't want to have a committee watching over us.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Descant

In NH , Towns can only modify taxes if the legislature gives permission. You can get a small break, if Town Meeting allows it, for being a veteran, for example. Not much else. Every session, there are bills to ease the burden for this group or that, but easing it for one adds to the burden for another. Bill fails.

Most towns give a break to seniors citizen home owners but to get it you have to basically be old and poor. The limits of how much money you can have in the bank is very low.

[mcdude]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

If the teacher's pensions are ...Like those in CA (or MA), you're screwed.

As a retired Massachusetts educator I can tell you that you are incorrect. Mass teacher pensions are totally self-funded by teacher contributions from every pay check throughout their career. Not one cent of any teacher pension comes from your taxes. The Mass. Teacher Retirement System has nothing to do with the pensions of state workers.


Teachers "contribute" 9% of their income plus 2% on earnings over $30,000/year


" the Massachusetts Teachers’ Retirement System is the largest of the Commonwealth’s 104 contributory retirement systems."


https://mtrs.state.ma.us/about/

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by 8gv

While I admittedly have no dog in this fight...can the abbreviations be decoded please?

I think this is what your looking for:

Governor Wentworth Regional School Board.

District covers at least Wolfeboro, New Durham, and I believe Tuftonboro, at a minimum.

Dave

[tis]

Oh sorry, 8. I didn't realize you were talking to me. Thanks for the reply Up. Wolfeboro, Tuftonboro, Ossipee, Effingham, Brookfield, New Durham and Middleton is tuitioned in.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by tis

Rusty, you are right, however they are part of the existing school board. And they had the meeting because of all the talk of overseeing coast rises. And the selectmen's point (especially imo, the selectmen from Ossipee) is that theyreally would like a separate budget committee that is independent. My feeling (and i watched the whole meeting) was that the school board said feel free to come to our meetings but we don't want to have a committee watching over us.

There is a separate "overseeing" of the school budget, it's called the voters of Wolfeboro.
If they don't attend meetings to keep a check on costs or vote down the continuing increases each year than nothing will change.

Thanks for bringing up the GWRSB Finance Committee meeting, it sheds a lot of light on what is wrong with the oversight of the budget.

[C-Bass]

Come to Moultonborough, my taxes actually went down, $7.72 now. It does appear that is community center is back on the table again. Looks another vote in March. We will see how long the low rate last.

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by tis

Rusty, you are right, however they are part of the existing school board. And they had the meeting because of all the talk of overseeing coast rises. And the selectmen's point (especially imo, the selectmen from Ossipee) is that theyreally would like a separate budget committee that is independent. My feeling (and i watched the whole meeting) was that the school board said feel free to come to our meetings but we don't want to have a committee watching over us.

TIS, can you provide a pointer to the link to watch these meetings? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Rusty

There is a separate "overseeing" of the school budget, it's called the voters of Wolfeboro.
If they don't attend meetings to keep a check on costs or vote down the continuing increases each year than nothing will change.

Thanks for bringing up the GWRSB Finance Committee meeting, it sheds a lot of light on what is wrong with the oversight of the budget.

Minor tweak to your point: The voters of all seven towns in the district vote on the budget, not just Wolfeboro.

[bigpatsfan]

So, let me understand this: Every time taxes go up it is because of all the people from Massachusetts!

We feel free making this statement without even taking the time to investigate what is driving the cost increases or even seeing how many of those horrible tax loving people from Massachusetts have moved to Wolfeboro… SAD

I would prefer an informed complaint. For example: We have to many teachers, we pay them to much, we need to cut funding for sports, music, math, english…. Something that shows that you took the time to pull up and review the school budget not just bitch that you are paying too much in taxes.

I am thinking that none of us enjoy paying taxes no matter how small or large our tax bill is or how much we make in income.

Get involved… pull the town and school reports… make suggestions on how they can save money. If it has increased by 75% then there are reasons... take the time to find out.

[Biggd]

The real estate market is primed for another slow down so we should see tax increases level off as the building boom slows over next few years.

[bigpatsfan]

How does the real estate market slowing down result in tax increases leveling off?

The town determines the cost to run the School and the Town. This is done via Town Meetings and Town votes. Then they then submit this information to the State and the State uses the current valuations of homes, land, business building..etc to determine the tax rate per thousand of assessed value. This amount brings the exact amount of money to the Town to pay for the budgets that the Town submitted... there is no extra money being collected.

With that said, a lot of Towns will have a line item in their budget to set aside money so that when they need to do a major spend (new buildings, major road repair...etc) they can use that money to offset the large cost.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by bigpatsfan

How does the real estate market slowing down result in tax increases leveling off?

The town determines the cost to run the School and the Town. This is done via Town Meetings and Town votes. Then they then submit this information to the State and the State uses the current valuations of homes, land, business building..etc to determine the tax rate per thousand of assessed value. This amount brings the exact amount of money to the Town to pay for the budgets that the Town submitted... there is no extra money being collected.

With that said, a lot of Towns will have a line item in their budget to set aside money so that when they need to do a major spend (new buildings, major road repair...etc) they can use that money to offset the large cost.

More housing being built means more money is needed for the influx of people for increased services. I think many people saw their taxes go down slightly during the last recession.
Now you're seeing the result of an expanding economy and increasing home values. I'm not saying taxes are going down but if the real estate market slows then so will the tax increases.
I'm seeing it in my business, for quite a few years prices were stagnant. Everyone was afraid to go up because business was slow. Now everything is going up and they say there's no inflation. That's a bunch of B/S.

[Major]

Originally Posted by bigpatsfan

So, let me understand this: Every time taxes go up it is because of all the people from Massachusetts!

The culture has changed. The size of government is the problem. Prior to the influx of outsiders (of course they are not all from Massachusetts), we did not look to government to solve our problems. Government leaders were tasked with the responsibility to reduce the size of government, not grow it.

You want an example, here's one.

When I was in 7th grade at Memorial Middle School in Laconia, we had the following as overhead (administration):

Principal - Mr. Harding
Vice Principal - Mr. St. Lawrence
Guidance Counselor - Mr. Jacques
Guidance Counselor - Mr. Wittum
Phys. Ed. - Mr. Fitzgerald
Music Teacher
Spanish Teacher (part time)
French Teacher (part time)
Librarian
Nurse
Secretary

That's it. Each class had two teams, so there were an additional total of 6 Math Teachers, 6 English Teachers, 6 History Teachers and 6 Science Teachers that serviced Grades 6, 7 and 8. The total amount of adults running Memorial Middle School was 35. This was to service 600 students.

Now look at Laconia Middle School. http://lmslaconia.weebly.com/staff-directory.html. 61 staff members (didn't include custodian or kitchen staff), of which there are only 21 teach Math, English, History and Science. 40 overhead positions! All to teach approximately 350 students. Proportionally, there should only be 16 Math, English, History and Science teachers.

We could eliminate half of the positions at Laconia Middle School and not miss a beat. Perhaps "services" may suffer, but I don't think the results would be any different.

All of government is like this. I could go through the same exercise with city hall, police, fire, etc. They have all expanded over the past 30 years, all for a population that has remained essentially the same - 16,000.

Hope this helps.

[Biggd]

It's not just government that's growing bigger it's everything. More people means more services are needed. That's how the economy grows.
Every state has an increase in population. If they didn't then they are doing something wrong. It means no one wants to live there or visit there.
You can't pick and choose who you want to let into the state because they don't fit your profile of a worthy person.
The Lakes Region is a resort area and it's population is always going to have wide seasonal fluctuations.
I will agree with you, Laconia is a poorly managed city.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Biggd

It's not just government that's growing bigger it's everything. More people means more services are needed. That's how the economy grows.
Every state has an increase in population. If they didn't then they are doing something wrong. It means no one wants to live there or visit there.
You can't pick and choose who you want to let into the state because they don't fit your profile of a worthy person.
The Lakes Region is a resort area and it's population is always going to have wide seasonal fluctuations.
I will agree with you, Laconia is a poorly managed city.

But in my example, there are less people (600 vs. 350). Our mindsets have changed. 41 years ago we had 35 people servicing 600 students. Today we have 61 people servicing 350 students. There are "services" now that weren't even contemplated 30/40 years ago. Do we need them? Do they make a difference?

You're right, we can't nor do we want to pick and choose who lives in the state. It is after all America. However, if we didn't offer such "services" then perhaps we would attract the people who will help us grow our economy and pay taxes to fund necessary government services instead of people looking to us to pay for their services.

[Biggd]

Or maybe Laconia needs to build a wall.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Or maybe Laconia needs to build a wall.

In South Down/Long Bay, we have a gate! Is that good enough?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Major

I grew up here. "Live Free or Die" is not just a motto but was a way of life. Self-reliance and liberty were core values in NH. Those values have changed with the influx of people from Mass. It is their expectation of government that is creating the high property taxes. Instead of going to schools, roads and police/fire protection, our money is now being spent on social programs, rehabilitation facilities, Section 8 housing, local jails, etc.

I think your misguided some yourself Major... Most of the Social programs rehabilitation facilities, section 8 housing, local jails etc. is not the Massachusetts effect.... Most of this is federally mandated.....

NH has to stop trying to point the finger at whom they want to blame for the problems that the state has financially... The problem is all within the state and local government... Education was never properly funded in NH.... Niether were many other things...

Why do you think NH gave up on the little license plates for boats, and exclusive NH non-reciprocal boat registration???
If you look into that you find that the federal government was going to pull funding for all sorts of things if NH, didn't fall in line...The funding the federal government was going to pull, included funding for fish and game initiatives, federal grants awarded to the Marine Patrol to help subsidize coastal waterway patrols etc.....

New Hampshire's live free or die attitude has backed them into a corner... the fear of additional taxes has made it even worse... NH continues to burden the people that make its economy function... the Tourism and second home owners..... eventually the burden will become to much.

[Major]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I think your misguided some yourself Major... Most of the Social programs rehabilitation facilities, section 8 housing, local jails etc. is not the Massachusetts effect.... Most of this is federally mandated.....

I disagree. Federal mandates did not require the Laconia City Council to invest in Section 8 housing. Investors who chose to construct such housing received Federal funding, which the City doesn't receive. The City approves Section 8 housing strictly for the property tax revenue. It could have shot down such requests. The Federal government didn't require drug treatment facilities on every corner of downtown Laconia. Again, the City approved the facilities for the property tax revenue. The Federal government didn't require the Taj Mahal local jail to be built. The Belknap County Sheriff's department didn't like working in the facility, they relentlessly complained, and the City Council and County Commission caved in to build the new facility. Jail and/or prison isn't supposed to be nice. The taxpayers would have appreciated a modest remodel.

Sometimes the Federal government offers money in exchange for hiring more teachers, police or firefighters. But guess what, the money typically sunsets, and who's stuck with the recurring expense? The taxpayers! Salary, benefits and most importantly pensions! We don't have to take advantage of these wonderful programs, we can simply turn down the money.

My point is that NH had a different approach to government, and that has changed. It's changed because of the influx of out-of-staters. Look at the election results of the most recent election to elections 20, 30, 40 years ago. Of course, the divide between Democrats and Republicans is as wide as ever. Years ago, there wasn't much of a divide.

[Biggd]

I know, build the wall to keep out the Democrats.🤣

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[Lakeboater]

Originally Posted by mcdude

As a retired Massachusetts educator I can tell you that you are incorrect. Mass teacher pensions are totally self-funded by teacher contributions from every pay check throughout their career. Not one cent of any teacher pension comes from your taxes. The Mass. Teacher Retirement System has nothing to do with the pensions of state workers.


Teachers "contribute" 9% of their income plus 2% on earnings over $30,000/year


" the Massachusetts Teachers’ Retirement System is the largest of the Commonwealth’s 104 contributory retirement systems."


https://mtrs.state.ma.us/about/

Not just teachers put in 9% plus 2%...cops, fireman, DPW. That's where the 104 number you referenced comes from. The teachers system is the largest due to the fact that in most communities the school system has the most employees and biggest department budget. The way you wrote your statement made it seem like just the teachers had those contributions.

[BlackcatBoater]

Originally Posted by nightrider

A tax increase of $800 to $1,000 every year is excessive any way you look at it.

If my assumption is correct- if your tax rate went up $1 per thousand, that would mean it is an $800,000 to $1,000,000 property. If that extra $1,000 per year hurts, maybe sell down and live normally like the rest of us?

[8gv]

Sometimes a property is owned by a family for many years.

High income folks from away often drive up real estate values as they compete for properties.

As the value of similar properties increases, so follow the taxes.

This can result in the family needing to sell because they can no longer afford to pay the taxes.

In Florida they have a system in place which mitigates this.

As long as your Florida home is your primary residence, your assessment and thus the annual tax bill, can only increase by a nominal rate which I believe to be 2%.

This protects the owner from the tax escalation that results from a very hot real estate market.

Once the property is sold the assessment and therefore taxes increase to what the current market reflects.

I believe this law was passed under the name "Save our homes."

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by nightrider

A tax increase of $800 to $1,000 every year is excessive any way you look at it.

Thank you for keeping my taxes low. You rich guys are paying 75% of the Wolfeboro total taxes.

[The Real BigGuy]

Why is it people only complain about taxes (tied to property value) going up when they pay them and never about the sale price due to appreciation? How else do people suggest that localities cover the cost of operational increases (i.e., salaries, infrastructure, etc.). Do yo deny employee increases? You would never accept that in your own life. Do you not fix roads, buildings, etc? I can hear the uproar now. Do you not buy new police cars, fire trucks, etc. when they wear out? I don’t think so.

Stop complaining and get involved in government. Run for office. Do something, don’t just sit on your but and complain. If you have time to sit and bitch, you have time to participate.

I love the Florida model or some form of it. Sad to see old timers have to sell because they can’t pay the property tax.


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[tis]

At a public meeting quite a few years ago, David Booth called the people who live on the lake the "cash cows". It's always ok to spend as long as it is the "other guy" who is paying for it.

Merrymeeting, you might be able to find it somewhere. Or maybe Rusty will find it for you. When I get a chance I will hunt for a link too.

[tis]

Merrymeeting, try this:

http://www.governmentoversite.com/schoolboard/gwrsd/

[mcdude]

Originally Posted by Lakeboater

Not just teachers put in 9% plus 2%...cops, fireman, DPW. That's where the 104 number you referenced comes from. The teachers system is the largest due to the fact that in most communities the school system has the most employees and biggest department budget. The way you wrote your statement made it seem like just the teachers had those contributions.

Thanks Lakeboater. Good to know. I was not aware of how it worked for other municipal workers. I'm always amazed at how many people think we are getting some kind of a free hand-out.

[Major]

Originally Posted by mcdude

Thanks Lakeboater. Good to know. I was not aware of how it worked for other municipal workers. I'm always amazed at how many people think we are getting some kind of a free hand-out.

It's not free, but it's certainly subsidized. New Hampshire's retirement system is less generous than Massachusett's retirement system, which in turn is less generous than Rhode Island's retirement system. In all fairness, I don't know much about NH's and Mass's retirement systems, but I know a lot about Rhode Island's, since my wife was part of the system. I don't think the concepts are too disparate though.

Since Forum members like facts, I'll give you an example. My mother-in-law retired from Rhode Island in 1999 at the age of 54. Her pension is approximately $70,000. Since retirement, she has collected $1,250,000+. If she lives until age 85, she will collect a total of $2,500,000. How much did she contribute to her pension? $90,000! The state contributed another $90,000. So for a grand total of $180,000, and a personal contribution of $90,000, my mother-in-law gets a lifetime salary of $70,000. Not a bad deal! All of this information is online and verifiable.

I do not fault her for this. It was the deal she made and we should abide by it. However, the math doesn't work. Pensions are not sustainable. That is why the dreaded private sector moved away from pensions 30+ years ago. Pensions may have made sense when public sector workers made less than private sector workers, but that has changed.

As stated above, NH and Mass aren't as generous as RI, but I am certain that taxpayers subsidize pensions. We should get out of the pension business and move toward individual retirement accounts.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Major

It's not free, but it's certainly subsidized. New Hampshire's retirement system is less generous than Massachusett's retirement system, which in turn is less generous than Rhode Island's retirement system. In all fairness, I don't know much about NH's and Mass's retirement systems, but I know a lot about Rhode Island's, since my wife was part of the system. I don't think the concepts are too disparate though.

Since Forum members like facts, I'll give you an example. My mother-in-law retired from Rhode Island in 1999 at the age of 54. Her pension is approximately $70,000. Since retirement, she has collected $1,250,000+. If she lives until age 85, she will collect a total of $2,500,000. How much did she contribute to her pension? $90,000! The state contributed another $90,000. So for a grand total of $180,000, and a personal contribution of $90,000, my mother-in-law gets a lifetime salary of $70,000. Not a bad deal! All of this information is online and verifiable.

I do not fault her for this. It was the deal she made and we should abide by it. However, the math doesn't work. Pensions are not sustainable. That is why the dreaded private sector moved away from pensions 30+ years ago. Pensions may have made sense when public sector workers made less than private sector workers, but that has changed.

As stated above, NH and Mass aren't as generous as RI, but I am certain that taxpayers subsidize pensions. We should get out of the pension business and move toward individual retirement accounts.

Generally when you take a state or city job you make less money than the private sector so you give up the "pay me now" for the "pay me later". In the case of your mother in law, she's getting the pay me later. Good for her!

In my younger days I had the chance to take a government job at $11.00 an hour and working the night shift as opposed to the private sector where I made $16.00 an hour working normal day time hours. I choose the private sector because I was a hard worker and I knew I would make a lot more money for my family at that moment.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Generally when you take a state or city job you make less money than the private sector so you give up the "pay me now" for the "pay me later". In the case of your mother in law, she's getting the pay me later. Good for her!

In my younger days I had the chance to take a government job at $11.00 an hour and working the night shift as opposed to the private sector where I made $16.00 an hour working normal day time hours. I choose the private sector because I was a hard worker and I knew I would make a lot more money for my family at that moment.

I don't think that's the case now. With benefits, I think a person makes as much in the public sector as in the private sector. However, this may be skewed since in the Washington DC area, public sector employees make more than private sector employees, and since so many people work in Washington, this may effect the overall numbers. I'm sure studies have been done proving both sides!

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Major

I don't think that's the case now. With benefits, I think a person makes as much in the public sector as in the private sector. However, this may be skewed since in the Washington DC area, public sector employees make more than private sector employees, and since so many people work in Washington, this may effect the overall numbers. I'm sure studies have been done proving both sides!

It is still that way in many departments of the government. I have a customer of mine that's been coming to me for almost 30 years. He works for the department of environmental protection. He just transferred to the Midwest because he could no longer afford to live in New England.
He told me he should have gone to the private sector years ago but he feels stuck now because he's close to getting his full pension so he has to continue with them. He has struggled to pay his bills for the past 30 year I've known him. I always gave him credit because he was good for it.

[Lakeboater]

Originally Posted by Major

It's not free, but it's certainly subsidized. New Hampshire's retirement system is less generous than Massachusett's retirement system, which in turn is less generous than Rhode Island's retirement system. In all fairness, I don't know much about NH's and Mass's retirement systems, but I know a lot about Rhode Island's, since my wife was part of the system. I don't think the concepts are too disparate though.

Since Forum members like facts, I'll give you an example. My mother-in-law retired from Rhode Island in 1999 at the age of 54. Her pension is approximately $70,000. Since retirement, she has collected $1,250,000+. If she lives until age 85, she will collect a total of $2,500,000. How much did she contribute to her pension? $90,000! The state contributed another $90,000. So for a grand total of $180,000, and a personal contribution of $90,000, my mother-in-law gets a lifetime salary of $70,000. Not a bad deal! All of this information is online and verifiable.

I do not fault her for this. It was the deal she made and we should abide by it. However, the math doesn't work. Pensions are not sustainable. That is why the dreaded private sector moved away from pensions 30+ years ago. Pensions may have made sense when public sector workers made less than private sector workers, but that has changed.

As stated above, NH and Mass aren't as generous as RI, but I am certain that taxpayers subsidize pensions. We should get out of the pension business and move toward individual retirement accounts.

What makes you say that the NH retirement system is less generous that the MA system? Pretty sure, from talking to both, you have that backwards. I used to think the same thing.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Lakeboater

What makes you say that the NH retirement system is less generous that the MA system? Pretty sure, from talking to both, you have that backwards. I used to think the same thing.

My teacher family and friends who teach in NH seem to have to work longer for less of a pension than family and friends who work as teachers in Mass and RI. I know RI is extremely generous, you can retire at 60% after 28 years (prior to pension reform). My father-in-law retired after 35 years from Mass and collects about $35,000 per year. In talking to NH teachers, their pay is less than Mass and RI, so as a result the pensions are lower.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Major

I don't think that's the case now. With benefits, I think a person makes as much in the public sector as in the private sector. However, this may be skewed since in the Washington DC area, public sector employees make more than private sector employees, and since so many people work in Washington, this may effect the overall numbers. I'm sure studies have been done proving both sides!

I agree with you. The private sector cannot afford to compete with the government's generous wages and benefits any more.

[8gv]

Since we have drifted into a discussion of government pensions...

Each state has a statistic called “unfunded pension obligations”.

Simply put, this number represents what is promised to retired state employees but is not in the state’s hands.

The numbers are very low with many states below 50% and others below 40%.

States cannot print money like the federal government can.

The only way to meet these obligations is to increase revenue.

That often means higher state income taxes.

The problem with that is income portability.

Many high income tax payers can choose to relocate to states with lower taxes.

When the exodus begins the tax payers who remain will need to pay more.

Citizens who pay little or no taxes and receivers of other state support, stay in their state.

The result is an acceleration of the problem until critical mass occurs.

Watch CT over the next decade.

[Bigstan]

Originally Posted by 8gv

Since we have drifted into a discussion of government pensions...

Each state has a statistic called “unfunded pension obligations”.

Simply put, this number represents what is promised to retired state employees but is not in the state’s hands.

The numbers are very low with many states below 50% and others below 40%.

States cannot print money like the federal government can.

The only way to meet these obligations is to increase revenue.

That often means higher state income taxes.

The problem with that is income portability.

Many high income tax payers can choose to relocate to states with lower taxes.

When the exodus begins the tax payers who remain will need to pay more.

Citizens who pay little or no taxes and receivers of other state support, stay in their state.

The result is an acceleration of the problem until critical mass occurs.

Watch CT over the next decade.

It's the next Detroit. Which is to say bankrupt and with pensions to be worth fractions of what they once were.

Pension plans will fail for the same reason as SS will eventually - when you live 30-40+ years collecting on a plan that was designed to kick in a couple years before your estimated death the system breaks.

Anyone can look up the unfunded liability on their plan, and it's overall breakdown - 80% of the MA teachers plan goes to service debt. They should all beg to be on 401k type plans, as teachers who quit in under 10 years lose all contributions, and as the avg teacher doesn't last ten years they plan gets all those contributions free (yes, been there, done that). Unless things changed MA teachers dont even get SS benefits. They should want to trade a pension in for a standard retirement plan and SS benefits / Medicare/Caid.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Major

My teacher family and friends who teach in NH seem to have to work longer for less of a pension than family and friends who work as teachers in Mass and RI. I know RI is extremely generous, you can retire at 60% after 28 years (prior to pension reform). My father-in-law retired after 35 years from Mass and collects about $35,000 per year. In talking to NH teachers, their pay is less than Mass and RI, so as a result the pensions are lower.

I think your teacher example argues against your earlier point that the public sector pays more than the private sector, even after adjusting for Summer break, etc. When I compare good teachers I know to similarly skilled people in business, the business people always seem to earn more.

The pensions go a long way toward making up for this. If we pull them out or downgrade them to IRAs, the teachers will need to find some other way to funding their retirement. Perhaps by quitting their teaching jobs and leaving us with much less skilled teachers.

That's not to say they aren't expensive or that there aren't some formulas that are wrong. Just that there are HUGE impacts to dramatically lowering the compensation of an important group of people.

[8gv]

Since state employees are a large voting block, it is tempting for politicians to promise better pensions.

The problem is that a future set of tax payers will get the burden of paying for it.

For this reason, I would prefer a more direct, pay as you go approach to retirement benefits.

Retirement contributions made to the employee's own account each pay period that can't be diverted for other use by politicians seems more sensible.

[The Real BigGuy]

I have heard the argument that public sector employees make less than the private sector for many years. Years (40 +/-) ago that may have been true. I’m not sure that has been true for many years.

When today’s benefits are considered, things would appear to change.

Health insurance - until recently most public sector employees were paying little or nothing for it. I remember NH state employees freaking out a few years ago when the state bumped their contribution a couple of hundred $. At the time I was paying about $700/month for a company provided family plan w/a $5000 deductible.

Vacation time: Several public sector employees I knew were getting 6, 8, 10 weeks paid for working comparable times to me. I was getting 3.

“Comp” time: public sector employees were getting 1 hour comp time (to be used as additional vaca or bought out) for every hour they worked beyond 40 even though they were salaried. I was salaried and worked until the job was done for no additional compensation.

Retirement: I had an IRA & a 401k (which the company stopped matching when last financial crisis hit). Some of my public sector friends are making close to 100k/yr out of their pensions (god bless them)

Raises: I was lucky to get 1.5%. Some years none if the business couldn’t afford it. Most of my public sector friends were seeing double that.

During the “financial crisis” I was getting a day a week off w/o pay so the company could avoid laying people off. State employees were bitching that they were getting furloughed a day a month.

Oh, and by the way, my base salary was within 20 to 25k of my public sector friends. Who was doing better? Guess it depends on your prospective.


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[JEEPONLY]

Oh, and by the way, my base salary was within 20 to 25k of my public sector friends. Who was doing better? Guess it depends on your prospective.

People- let's be clear on just what it is we're talking about.

What does the above statement mean? So,you made 20-25k more/less? than your friends? This is very confusing.

I have worked many years in each of different "sectors". One of my takeaways is that the conveniences of some sectors far outweigh those of others. I think this might play into what you get at the end of a working career.


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[thinkxingu]

I've started to post here a few times, but they've always gotten too long. I'll just say this: teacher salaries, which are based on longevity and education, often start at half what they end at. For example, my school starts at $44k (1st year, bachelor's) and goes up to $97k (14th+ year, doctorate). To my knowledge, no other occupation is remotely close to that system.

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[Bigstan]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I've started to post here a few times, but they've always gotten too long. I'll just say this: teacher salaries, which are based on longevity and education, often start at half what they end at. For example, my school starts at $44k (1st year, bachelor's) and goes up to $97k (14th+ year, doctorate). To my knowledge, no other occupation is remotely close to that system.

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What do you mean? Remotely close how?

[Major]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I've started to post here a few times, but they've always gotten too long. I'll just say this: teacher salaries, which are based on longevity and education, often start at half what they end at. For example, my school starts at $44k (1st year, bachelor's) and goes up to $97k (14th+ year, doctorate). To my knowledge, no other occupation is remotely close to that system.

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Painters with no experience start out at $11 per hour. Painters with 30+ years of experience make $25 per hour. The ratios appear to be the same. There are lots and lots of examples. Not sure I get your point.


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Bigstan

What do you mean? Remotely close how?

No other career makes half of its value when starting. For example, in the first decade of a teacher's career, she will be making around ~$20k less than a similarly educated professional. It's only after 15 or so years and advanced education that a teacher will make even close to other professionals. In some cases, 20 to 25 years.

So, take the model of a 401(k), where if you invest money now rather than starting in ten years, etc. The hardest part of this is that starting teachers suddenly have a life to build--moving out, starting a family, repayment of loans, etc.--which makes it doubly hard and often leads to teachers leaving the profession or never getting into it in the first place. (The same applies to people coming from industry, BTW. The percentage of people who stay in education after coming from the private sector is under 50% at my school)

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[Major]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

No other career makes half of its value when starting. For example, in the first decade of a teacher's career, she will be making around ~$20k less than a similarly educated professional. It's only after 15 or so years and advanced education that a teacher will make even close to other professionals. In some cases, 20 to 25 years.

So, take the model of a 401(k), where if you invest money now rather than starting in ten years, etc. The hardest part of this is that starting teachers suddenly have a life to build--moving out, starting a family, repayment of loans, etc.--which makes it doubly hard and often leads to teachers leaving the profession or never getting into it in the first place. (The same applies to people coming from industry, BTW. The percentage of people who stay in education after coming from the private sector is under 50% at my school)

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Just not true. Electrical engineers start today at $80,000. A senior project engineer makes about $150,000. My firm hires entry level attorneys at $135,000 per year. Of counsel (non-partner track) attorneys make $225,000. The challenges for teachers are no different than challenges faced in other professions. My two sons work very hard, one in sales and the other in finance. They make $45,000 and $57,000, respectively. They don’t have the luxury of working 8:00 am to 3:00 pm or having 12 weeks vacation. Nor do they have a pension. What you’re talking about may have been true 40 years ago but not now.


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[Biggd]

It depends on the career. Here in the Boston area many kids with college degrees quickly accelerate their incomes into the triple digets. A family of 4 can't survive on less than 200K here.

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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Major

Just not true. Electrical engineers start today at $80,000. A senior project engineer makes about $150,000. My firm hires entry level attorneys at $135,000 per year. Of counsel (non-partner track) attorneys make $225,000. The challenges for teachers are no different than challenges faced in other professions. My two sons work very hard, one in sales and the other in finance. They make $45,000 and $57,000, respectively. They don’t have the luxury of working 8:00 am to 3:00 pm or having 12 weeks vacation. Nor do they have a pension. What you’re talking about may have been true 40 years ago but not now.


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You're comparing different jobs. I'm doing the same thing now as I was fifteen years ago. Also, in both your examples, the incomes are double at the beginning and triple+ at veteran status for similar/less educational requirements.

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[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Major

Electrical engineers start today at $80,000.

A senior project engineer makes about $150,000.

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Just curious as to where starting and senior engineers in any field make this kind of money.

Thanks

[Major]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Just curious as to where starting and senior engineers in any field make this kind of money.



Thanks

Raytheon and Schneider Electric.


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[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Major

Raytheon and Schneider Electric.


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Explains why a colleague with 4 years of teaching experience left for Raytheon!

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[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

No other career makes half of its value when starting. after coming from the private sector is under 50% at my school

That is true but no other career gets 3 months of vacation the first year. At my first job I got one week vacation until 5 years, 2 weeks until 15 years, 3 after 15, and 4 after 20.

The generally offered bunk about all the work teachers do at home is doubtful at best. They usually have free periods for paperwork and plenty of time during the school day to get caught up.

When I was in high school we got out at 2:15 and the rush out of the teachers parking lot at 2:30 looked like the building was on fire!

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

That is true but no other career gets 3 months of vacation the first year. At my first job I got one week vacation until 5 years, 2 weeks until 15 years, 3 after 15, and 4 after 20.

The generally offered bunk about all the work teachers do at home is doubtful at best. They usually have free periods for paperwork and plenty of time during the school day to get caught up.

When I was in high school we got out at 2:15 and the rush out of the teachers parking lot at 2:30 looked like the building was on fire!

You're absolutely right. I mean, you must know--you were a student after all, and who knows more about the ins-and-outs of teaching than a high school graduate, amiright?

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[kawishiwi]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

That is true but no other career gets 3 months of vacation the first year. At my first job I got one week vacation until 5 years, 2 weeks until 15 years, 3 after 15, and 4 after 20.

The generally offered bunk about all the work teachers do at home is doubtful at best. They usually have free periods for paperwork and plenty of time during the school day to get caught up.

When I was in high school we got out at 2:15 and the rush out of the teachers parking lot at 2:30 looked like the building was on fire!

Deeply & profoundly, ignorant, on teachers, you are.
I am not a teacher, though I did deliver curriculum for a year for the Houston schools. So I know teachers as friends, co workers, family members. Many, if not most, end up working summers. None are "done" @ 2:15.

[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Major

The culture has changed. The size of government is the problem. Prior to the influx of outsiders (of course they are not all from Massachusetts), we did not look to government to solve our problems. Government leaders were tasked with the responsibility to reduce the size of government, not grow it.

You want an example, here's one.

When I was in 7th grade at Memorial Middle School in Laconia, we had the following as overhead (administration):

Principal - Mr. Harding
Vice Principal - Mr. St. Lawrence
Guidance Counselor - Mr. Jacques
Guidance Counselor - Mr. Wittum
Phys. Ed. - Mr. Fitzgerald
Music Teacher
Spanish Teacher (part time)
French Teacher (part time)
Librarian
Nurse
Secretary

That's it. Each class had two teams, so there were an additional total of 6 Math Teachers, 6 English Teachers, 6 History Teachers and 6 Science Teachers that serviced Grades 6, 7 and 8. The total amount of adults running Memorial Middle School was 35. This was to service 600 students.

Now look at Laconia Middle School. http://lmslaconia.weebly.com/staff-directory.html. 61 staff members (didn't include custodian or kitchen staff), of which there are only 21 teach Math, English, History and Science. 40 overhead positions! All to teach approximately 350 students. Proportionally, there should only be 16 Math, English, History and Science teachers.

We could eliminate half of the positions at Laconia Middle School and not miss a beat. Perhaps "services" may suffer, but I don't think the results would be any different.

All of government is like this. I could go through the same exercise with city hall, police, fire, etc. They have all expanded over the past 30 years, all for a population that has remained essentially the same - 16,000.

Hope this helps.

You forgot to mention that you walked 5 miles each way to and from school in the rain, snow and heat. No bus back in the day. Now the increased local government expenses and resultant tax increases are my fault because I have a house in NH and I spend much of my disposable income in the lakes region supporting the local economy.

[Major]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

You forgot to mention that you walked 5 miles each way to and from school in the rain, snow and heat. No bus back in the day. Now the increased local government expenses and resultant tax increases are my fault because I have a house in NH and I spend much of my disposable income in the lakes region supporting the local economy.

Firstly, I took the bus. Secondly, I have no issue with those who have second homes here. They don’t vote. My issue is with those who move here full time and want the same services they were used to receiving in Mass, RI, Connecticut and NY.


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[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Major

Firstly, I took the bus. Secondly, I have no issue with those who have second homes here. They don’t vote. My issue is with those who move here full time and want the same services they were used to receiving in Mass, RI, Connecticut and NY.


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What a terrible thing, to want to see advancement in services. We must build a wall to keep out those Democrats.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Biggd

What a terrible thing, to want to see advancement in services. We must build a wall to keep out those Democrats.

Wow, Major! I bet you didn't expect such an honest answer!

[secondcurve]

As with most issues the truth is somewhere in the middle. For example, I cringe when I see what is going on in Georgia. A far left politician is within a whisker of claiming the governorship. What does she want to do? You guessed it she wants to raise taxes which isn’t surprising given she is on the far left. The twist is she hasn’t paid her personal income taxes for years and she has a payment plan with the IRS! Shouldn’t it be against the law to run for office if you haven’t paid your taxes? Of course it should. How is it possible this lady was able to get 49% of the vote in a state like Georgia?

On the other extreme is the great state of NH. It is one of the least taxed statesin the union and Wolfeboro has a relatively low tax rate in the state. Shouldn’t we be able to spend more on the schools in Wolfeboro? I think yes. The issue is the tax system in NH is so heavily reliant on real estate. It shouldn’t be but it is. How can it be fixed? Shift the burden to other revenue sources is clearly the answer. However, a lot of folks are afraid once this happens the genie is out of the bottle and taxes will never stop going up which is probably true.

So how do we fix all these problems? Clearly the answer is to elect officials in the center of the political spectrum and compromise like we used to but this doesn’t happen any longer. A very said state of affairs.

[The Real BigGuy]

Yea, shame on Stacey Abrams for prioritizing paying for her dad’s cancer treatment over paying quarterly self employment payments. You should understand the background before you make statements.

However, I do agree with your final point. It appears that pols from both parties are more concerned about the party then they are about the people they represent.


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[Bigstan]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

You're comparing different jobs. I'm doing the same thing now as I was fifteen years ago. Also, in both your examples, the incomes are double at the beginning and triple+ at veteran status for similar/less educational requirements.

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Right - different jobs. I have gone up 7-8x in earnings as a systems engineer over 20 years by furthering my skill sets, working 70+ hour weeks, no vacation, training on my own time and dime, etc. If you are doing the same thing after 15 years you're lucky to make twice what you started at, in the private sector you would be making about the same.

[secondcurve]

The Real Big Guy:

Typical response from an ardent supporter. What about the $50,000 she lent her campaign last month? Surely this money should have been used to clear her tax bill? Paying taxes just isn’t convienient for her. Do you really want someone who doesn’t pay their taxes making decisions about your taxes? God help the country with leaders such as her.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

The Real Big Guy:

Typical response from an ardent supporter. What about the $50,000 she lent her campaign last month? Surely this money should have been used to clear her tax bill? Paying taxes just isn’t convienient for her. Do you really want someone who doesn’t pay their taxes making decisions about your taxes? God help the country with leaders such as her.

If she's on a payment plan and is making the payments then she is paying her taxes.
I'm not an ardent supporter and I don't even follow Georgia politics.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Bigstan

Right - different jobs. I have gone up 7-8x in earnings as a systems engineer over 20 years by furthering my skill sets, working 70+ hour weeks, no vacation, training on my own time and dime, etc. If you are doing the same thing after 15 years you're lucky to make twice what you started at, in the private sector you would be making about the same.

I'm hoping to be as successful as you some day.

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[Major]

Originally Posted by tis

Wow, Major! I bet you didn't expect such an honest answer!

I didn't. But his first sentence again ignores the point. NH government has a proud tradition of being lean and mean, and that has changed. If you want or need services, go somewhere where they value them. Stay in Mass with 5.35 income tax and 6.25 sales tax. They can afford all the most wonderful services desired.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Major

I didn't. But his first sentence again ignores the point. NH government has a proud tradition of being lean and mean, and that has changed. If you want or need services, go somewhere where they value them. Stay in Mass with 5.35 income tax and 6.25 sales tax. They can afford all the most wonderful services desired.

That's what the wall is for!

[The Real BigGuy]

Thanks Biggd. Saved me some typing.


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[CTYankee]

Originally Posted by Major

I didn't. But his first sentence again ignores the point. NH government has a proud tradition of being lean and mean, and that has changed. If you want or need services, go somewhere where they value them. Stay in Mass with 5.35 income tax and 6.25 sales tax. They can afford all the most wonderful services desired.

a state that makes Massachusetts look red by comparison. Connecticut offers government control for life. All the services huge taxes can pay for, and then some. Personal responsibility - a thing of the past.

Hopefully New Hampshire will come to its senses and return to its motto: Live Free or Die.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by CTYankee

a state that makes Massachusetts look red by comparison. Connecticut offers government control for life. All the services huge taxes can pay for, and then some. Personal responsibility - a thing of the past.

Hopefully New Hampshire will come to its senses and return to its motto: Live Free or Die.

There's nothing free about NH.

[8gv]

People move to a place hoping it won’t change but...

their very presence changes the place.

[Major]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

That is true but no other career gets 3 months of vacation the first year. At my first job I got one week vacation until 5 years, 2 weeks until 15 years, 3 after 15, and 4 after 20.

The generally offered bunk about all the work teachers do at home is doubtful at best. They usually have free periods for paperwork and plenty of time during the school day to get caught up.

When I was in high school we got out at 2:15 and the rush out of the teachers parking lot at 2:30 looked like the building was on fire!

Tilton, you are correct. My wife was a teacher in RI for 15 years. After the first two years, each teacher had down his or her curriculum, so prepping wasn't an issue unless they were told to teach a different class which was worse than contracting the plague. My wife was a math teacher (7th and 8th grade). She would get chastised by her coworkers for staying after school to offer extra help sessions with children. Her coworkers were pulling the ripcord at 2:30, and to the extent that they graded or did other things, they used free periods. She started out teaching in 1991 making $24,000. When she left in 2008, she was making $70,000. Like I said in a prior post, not bad for a 40-week per year job with hours between 8:00 am and 2:30 pm. I am not down on teachers. However, I think the pay is very fair given what others make in different areas and the skill sets involved.

[MDoug]

Originally Posted by Biggd

There's nothing free about NH.

Speaking of things not free, we have not received our second tax bill from Meredith yet.
Are they late sending them?

[Biggd]

Should b coming soon. They won't forget.😁

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[secondcurve]

Originally Posted by Biggd

If she's on a payment plan and is making the payments then she is paying her taxes.
I'm not an ardent supporter and I don't even follow Georgia politics.

I guess I’m old fashioned. I would have paid my past due taxes before even thinking about running for office. She has a Yale law degree and is a published author. I think she has enough smarts to figure out how to pay off $50,000 in past due taxes if she wanted to. She obviously was brought up differently than I was. Thank God she lost. Unfourtunately, she has no shame and refuses to concede.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

I guess I’m old fashioned. I would have paid my past due taxes before even thinking about running for office.

You wouldn't make a good politician, you're too honest. You probably don't lie everyday either..Nope, you would'nt fit into the current administration.

[kawishiwi]

Originally Posted by secondcurve

The Real Big Guy:

Typical response from an ardent supporter. What about the $50,000 she lent her campaign last month? Surely this money should have been used to clear her tax bill? Paying taxes just isn’t convienient for her. Do you really want someone who doesn’t pay their taxes making decisions about your taxes? God help the country with leaders such as her.

Or like Trump? Or did he pay his taxes? If so how much? I am totally with you, we should know every politicians complete tax record before we vote on them.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by kawishiwi

Or like Trump? Or did he pay his taxes? If so how much? I am totally with you, we should know every politicians complete tax record before we vote on them.

Speaking of taxes, where is the 10% middle class tax cut that we were promised a few days ago. Oh well, nobody seems to cares so why should I..I'm just a no good liberal.