NH natives are in the minority!

[Pine Island Guy]

An influx of families from Massachusetts is changing the demographics of New Hampshire, according to a study conducted by the University of New Hampshire. Almost 25% of New Hampshire's residents were born in Massachusetts, while 57% were born out of state. "Everyone thinks of New Hampshire as such a quaint, stable state, but only seven other states have fewer residents born in state, and those are states you'd expect, like Florida, Nevada and California," said Kenneth M. Johnson, the author of the report.

The full story at: http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...altered_state/

PIG (NH Native )

"lived here all your life?"
"not yet I haven't"

[MAXUM]

NH is not going to stay "quaint" with the continued influx of people. Not only is the demographics changing, so to is the political leanings as well. As a native myself, I find the changes to be stomach turning as it seems to be slowly destroying what NH has always been. It's becoming a hi bred of the surrounding states which essentially destroys the very things that would make it attractive in the first place. Guess when it gets bad enough I'll pull stakes and move out of here. Sad to see it happening but it's no surprise.

[TimmyG]

I moved to NH from CT about 6 months ago. I love it here. It's amazing how the culture and politics are different than CT. (Right wing nut that I am, at least compared to the general populus of CT) I hated it there. Unfortunately I was locked into a career that I couldn't get out of. A relocation to an office in Boston came up and I jumped on it.
I moved to Henniker and commute to Boston every day. Long drive, but well worth it.
I bought a boat and am now very impatiently awaiting ice-out!

TG

[Grant]

This is nothing new -- it's been going on for quite a while, but I suppose it's now reaching a 'critical mass' stage.

It seems that the 80s-90s tech boom, and the accompanying surge of high-tech workers in the 495/128 beltways contributed a great deal. The influx of workers and the tax benefits of relocating north of the border led to a southern NH boomlet. Word spreads fast, and with all the state has to offer, it became a destination of choice. Fortunes grew, McMansions arose, and eventually the virus spread to the Lakes Region. Consider the escalation of property values on the Lake since, say, 1982 or so. (And, while we're at it, consider the degradation of water quality in the same period...)

This is highly unscientific , highly simplified, and based solely on personal observations gleaned over the years.

[kjbathe]

MAXUM hit on some of the challenges faced by us natives, and the politics cannot be ignored. It has been ages since the Democrats ran the show in Concord and I couldn't tell you the last time I was represented in the House in D.C by a Dem. This isn't to say that Democrats are bad. But it is a challenge to see NH politics turning into more of the same of that which surrounds us.

I'm one of those folks that believe people often bring with them some of that which they were trying to get away from: Excess spending, increased taxes, anything-goes attitudes and a feeling that someone else can always pick up the cost or "share" responsibility. I cringe when I see things now like the NH House voting to de-criminalize marijuana (slippery slope) or Representive Shea-Porter seeking to grant foreign terrorists protection under our own Constitution.

It will be interesting to see if we can maintain our unique NH heritage and advantage in the future, or if we become just another one of our neighbors with nation-leading tax burdens, flawed policies and goofy towns seeking to indict our President for war crimes.

[Formula260SS]

I am not a native but have lived in NH since 1990. The changes in the 18 years I have lived here are difficult at time to see, the way the political landscape has changed is most disturbing, we are clearly moving away from the roots of the state. The people who move in just are not tuned into what New Hampshire is all about.

[phoenix]

look what happened to Vermont. It use to be very conservative and primarily farming then became a haven for yuppies from New York and now they have a socialist senator

[fatlazyless]

Hey, if you feel like you are in the minority now, just wait until Shaheen whoops Sununu in November, and then Lynch gut-hooks Gregg in 2010. Could be Judd will see the writing on the wall and just decide it's best not to run so he can retire undefeated on his Powerball money.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I wish that the people who move to New Hampshire would try to remember why they moved here and not feel the need to fix it to be like the place they left to come here. Could it be that a conservative state is what you longed for? An island of red in a sea of blue that has now gone to the blue side of purple. Where will you move to when NH is not what you want?

I love telling visitors at work that "yes not only do we not have a sales tax but we don't have an income tax either". When we review the property tax it is often determined that we are very similar to other parts of the country. (Yes some are more and some are less and this is not a scientific study)

I was truly excited to hear that Al Gore had invented a way to help the one issue I am having an issue with as I get older. But this year puts that promised climate change at risk.
(Yes I am kidding)

This native has been drinking the NH maple flavored Kool Aid for a long time.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

I wish that the people who move to New Hampshire would try to remember why they moved here and not feel the need to fix it to be like the place they left to come here. Could it be that a conservative state is what you longed for? An island of red in a sea of blue that has now gone to the blue side of purple. Where will you move to when NH is not what you want?

Perfectly said! (from another native)

[nj2nh]

I have had a dream of moving to NH since I was a little girl who was born and bred in that evil state, Massachusetts. That dream lives on - more vivid and close than ever - now that I live in the other evil state, NJ.

When that day comes that I will finally make that dream come true, I will not care about the politics (as I don't much now), I will not care about income tax (as I won't have an income to speak of) and I will not care where my neighbors were born and raised.

I will care about how beautiful my view is every morning. I will care about the peace and solitude I feel when I look out the window. And I will wonder why it took me so long to make this move.

I will even love the snow no matter how much there is.

People don't move to NH for the taxes or the politics, in my opinion. They move there because it is so incredibly beautiful. Please keep it that way until I get there, okay?

nj2nh

[ITD]

I am seriously concerned with what is going on. I think that if Less gets what he wishes for, even he won't be able to stand it and will move away.........

[SIKSUKR]

Bring back Mel Thompson and William Loeb.(I have a shovel if you need one)

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Bring back Mel Thompson and William Loeb.(I have a shovel if you need one)

Amen to that!! Those were the days!

[mets3007]

I live in another evil state NY Queens NY to be exact, I have been coming to Laconia- Weirs NH every summer since 1988 and I have no plans to stop coming because it is sooooo beautiful, I would move there, but, there is too much snow for me lol. I read the Citizen, and this site each day and everyone thinks I live in NH but as I tell them NH is my 2nd home.

[Ropetow]

It is encouraging to see so many forum members upset with the recent political trends in NH. But, how many of us are, or are willing to, do anything about it? Start by carefully checking the voting record of your local state representatives and senator. Read the local paper. Daily. Check out some of the NH political web sites and blogs. Get involved in your local community government. Get involved in a political campaign. Maybe even run for office. Democracy isn't a spectator sport. If we want New Hampshire government to change, then we have to do it.

[John A. Birdsall]

Yes, NH is a beautiful state in all three seasons. but the building going on around our beautiful lake, with scab markings in the hills, on the shore for the mcmansions. Pretty soon you will not see the trees for the mcmansions.

Not all that long ago there would be cottages on the shoreline, that you did not even see, yet today where did they go, Where did all the cottages go,,long time passing. Where did all the trees go...so long ago..

Your lucky I don't have a microphone.

[Weirs guy]

Hi, my name is Weirs Guy and I was born and bread within 1/2 hours drive of the Weirs, where I now spend every day I can with my family.

Do out of staters who move here bother me? Not so much. Do "flatlanders" who show up a few weeks out of the year and try and run the show bother me? Heck yes. And I know more flatlanders from NH then Mass.

BUT I think its important to also remember that Winni is not a great example of NH. Most of us here are very attached to the lake, as our most out of staters. I think this skews the demographics in the immediate area a little. The next time your at the lake and feel the "urban sprawl crawl" closing in on you take a nice drive to the nearest forest, park the car and hike in until you can't hear the traffic anymore. Its amazing how many places are still like that and still very close to the lake.

Until the flatlanders find them.

[Newbiesaukee]

sentiments expressed by the "natives," why is it always US vs THEM? While politically I may be a "little bluer" than some of the natives (probably more purple than red or blue), we are in NH almost half the year and do value the things that make the Lakes Region so desirable.

One fact is inescapable, time. We may long for "yesteryear" and wish that things do not change, but they do. Even if the dreaded flatlanders had not moved to NH, the NH of today would not be the NH of 30 years ago. Come to think of it, neither are we.

I am not insensitive to change. I have lived in Miami for more than 35 years and if you think NH has changed, Miami is the King of change. Some days I love it, some days I hate it. But I just do not get angry at the "newcomers." Trite as it may sound, I do not forget that my grandparents were newcomers almost 100 years ago.

My point...there are many issues that we have in common and these are the issues we need to deal with. If it is always US vs THEM, little is ever accomplished. And that, unfortunately,never seems to change.

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by Newbiesaukee

]
My point...there are many issues that we have in common and these are the issues we need to deal with. If it is always US vs THEM, little is ever accomplished. And that, unfortunately,never seems to change.

I'm a New Hampshire resident by choice, not by birth. I escaped the People's Republic of Taxachusetts for the Live Free or Die mentality of the Granite State. It really "us" versus "them" in that, speaking for myself, "us" want limited government while "them" want the socialistic approach that has done so much good for ME, MA, etc. New Hampshire voters were upset in 2006 and elected two tax-and-spend congressmen, and a slew of tax-and-spend members of the state House and Senate. Knowing politics, the best time to defeat an incumbent is in their first run for re-election. That means that the 2008 elections are crucial to the future of NH. Will we retain the traditional values NH is known for, or will be become another MA, ME, etc.? We hear all the moans and groans about property taxes in NH. Ever notice that we hear the same moans and groans in MA and ME, and that is with high state income taxes and high sales taxes? We, the voters of NH, have the power this November to decide what kind of state we will be. I was active in the presidential primary, and won re-election to my local School Board in November. If my work scheduled allowed it, I'd run for a seat in the NH House. Talking about how NH politics has changed is good, but worthless unless it is followed up with action. Hopefully, folks who agree with me that NH is headed down the wrong path, that we don't want to become another MA or ME, will get involved in the upcoming election and back up our talk and thoughts with action. To steal a meaningless slogan from the hopelessly overmatched MA Gov., "Together, we can!"

[MAXUM]

Hey we love ya Ropetow!

The fact is for us natives we've been accustomed to a way of life here in NH. While it may not be perfect, glamorous, ladened with the latest high tech services and amenities, it's simplicity, it works, and we're fine and comfortable with that. Is it so bad for the people here to want things to remain that way and to be critical to those who barge in here with their big "progressive" ideas and try to fix what they perceive is broken? I think not. These ideas have made complete disasters out of our neighboring states and we don't want to see history repeating itself in our back yards, thank you very much.

[Newbiesaukee]

Ropetow, by the original definition of this thread, you are THEM, not a NH native. That is always the problem in seeing it as US vs. THEM. Certainly one can have legitimate differences of opinion on any subject and I applaud your activism. The point I was trying to make is that if we stick to the issues then certainly people can disagree on the issues. It is when we assume that everyone from MA or whatever ALWAYS thinks the same way, that, IMO, we run into problems.

[fatlazyless]

There's two different things at play here as to why the Democratic Party scored a political sea change in the November 2006 general election.

1) The war in Iraq and President Bush's low approval rating.

2) The whopping big increases in property taxes.

A couple days before the November 2006 election, all these NH Republican-NH advantage, roadside cardboard signs were placed along the roads on many different spots.

For the NH Republican Party their NH Advantage and local control has been their holy grail for 40 years. It used to be a sure winner for them, but it's just not a winner anymore.

Why is that and where do they go from here?

In New Hampshire, isn't being an independent which is actually a non-party, the largest category.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

In my opinion you don't have to be born here to be "US". It does help a lot if you like what we have and as RopeTow describes, "I'm a New Hampshire resident by choice".

[Ropetow]

Less: The war and GW were the reason for the 'brain burp' NH voters had in 2006. It had little to nothing to do with property taxes. Show me one liberal Democrat elected to the House or Senate who ran on a platform to reduce property taxes but enact a sales and income tax. Can't be done. I have 4 acquaintances who are liberal reps, and none of them ran on a platform to vote for civil unions, to push for a sales tax, to push for an income tax, or to decriminalize marijuana. I feel bad for the retired couple in Meredith NH, Millinocket ME or Medford MA living on a fixed income who are faced with ever-increasing property taxes on their modest ranch home. At least the folks in Meredith don't pay a sales tax on every new jacket they buy (as they do in ME...yup, ME taxes clothing along with having property taxes that are through the roof) or an income tax on their part-time WalMart Greeter jobs (as they do in ME and MA), I can't feel sorry for the folks in homes worth millions that face higher property taxes. The NH Advantage was and is real. Enacting a sales and / or income tax will NOT reduce the tax burden on anyone. Give liberals in government more money, and they will spend it. That's a historical fact. Even a friend who is a 'moderate' Dem. state rep says the Republicans will have major gains in Concord in 08. It is up to us. Sit on our hands and be faced with a total tax burden that is equal to or worse than ME and MA. Or become active and bring back the NH Advantage.

[Newbiesaukee]

It is reassuring that I am now one of US as I have chosen to live here as has anyone else from anywhere who lives in NH. I promise I won't respond further.

[fatlazyless]

People generally believe what they want to believe. Jeb Bradley called it a fluke, and you call it a brain burp. One thing that so many NH Republican politicians now all have in common is the word 'former.' There's former Congressman Jeb Bradley and Charley Bass, former Gov's Council Josiah Spaulding, former State Senator Carl Johnson, and Rob Boyce. After the election, most likely Senator Sununu will become one of the youngest former US senators, as well.

With an unpopular war, an unpopular President Bush, and two strong voter getters for the Democrats in Governor Lynch and Governor Shaheen, where is the New Hampshire election likely to go? I call it a continuing NH sea-change with the tide changing from red to blue, and getting more blue.

As the saying goes...time will tell...the November 4 election is about eight months away.

[SIKSUKR]

Ropetow for Governor.Your beating a dead horse with FLL.He can't believe that adding income and/or sales tax won't lower his property tax.As ropetow said,give em more money and they will spend more.When will people wake up.

[nj2nh]

How I wish I had been born and raised in NH. Then I wouldn't have to dream about living there - it would be my daily reality.

You natives are the luckiest people on earth!

nj2nh

[ghfromaltonbay]

As those of us from NJ have said in past forum threads -- Don't believe that your property taxes will decrease with the creation of income and sales taxes. We are now up to 7% sales tax, have a graduated income tax, and still pay the highest real estate taxes in the nation. Oh yeah, and the tax burden relief was also supposed to come from the casinos in Atlantic City. The more they tax, the more they spend! Here in NJ we are paying for corruption! Like nj2nh, I can't wait to relocate. I've been visiting the lakes region since 1959 and would gladly trade my $6200 tax bill, sales tax and income tax with any native.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Ropetow for Governor.Your beating a dead horse with FLL.He can't believe that adding income and/or sales tax won't lower his property tax.As ropetow said,give em more money and they will spend more.When will people wake up.

And while that poor horse gets beat to death over & over & over again by the same minority, the proof is stiil "in the pudding".

We are deep in to our second year legislative session of a Democratic Governor with a clear Democratic majority on the Executive Council, The House and the Senate. And what do we not have? Yep, no general sales or income tax!

Regardless of the party affiliation of the folks representing us in Concord, survey after survey and election after election always ends with the same result, the majority of the taxpayers in New Hampshire do not want their elected representatives to replace our current property tax system with a sales or income tax scheme.

I would say that the facts speak for themselves; regardless of party affiliation the New Hampshire advantage is alive & well in this great State, and still a major attraction for the many new folks moving in!

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by Skip

And while that poor horse gets beat to death over & over & over again by the same minority, the proof is stiil "in the pudding".

We are deep in to our second year legislative session of a Democratic Governor with a clear Democratic majority on the Executive Council, The House and the Senate. And what do we not have? Yep, no general sales or income tax!

Regardless of the party affiliation of the folks representing us in Concord, survey after survey and election after election always ends with the same result, the majority of the taxpayers in New Hampshire do not want their elected representatives to replace our current property tax system with a sales or income tax scheme.

I would say that the facts speak for themselves; regardless of party affiliation the New Hampshire advantage is alive & well in this great State, and still a major attraction for the many new folks moving in!

You are correct. There is no state sales or income tax. Yet. Gov. Lynch has said he would veto either. That is why the tax-and-spend crowd in the House haven't voted for it yet. Look at the irresponsible budget this crowd passed. And where are we now? Stuck with a budget deficit. I know and do some work with some of the liberal Dems and they literally laugh at the term NH advantage. They want more tax revenue so they can spend more money on social services. We are alright today. But, unless we are truly vigilant and active, they will get their broadbased taxes so they can emulate the social services of MA and ME. Maybe anyone who appreciates NH the way it is, and believes in the NH Advantage, should contact each of our state representatives and state senator via mail and ask them these questions: 'Do you support a state income tax?' 'Do you support a state sales tax?' 'If you answered 'no' , 'Under what circumstances (if any) could you see yourself voting in favor of a state sales or income tax?' Tell them that you would like them to mail you their responses. No telephone calls. Then you'll have them on the record. I bet some of us would be very surprised how bad the 'tax-and-spend fever' is in Concord. Or how few responses we'd actually get. I know that at least five of my eight state representatives would vote in favor of these taxes. (and judging my the votes cast by the other three it would most likely be a perfect 8/8 in favor of the taxes) But I know this because I asked them. None of them ran for election in 2006 on that campaign platform. Democracy isn't a spectator sport. We must work at it.

[asdf]

beautiful 'Lake Liberalism' in the great state of 'Little Massachusetts' (formerly known as Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire)

some call it progress. I would rather refer to it as evolution ... or cancer

[nj2nh]

Yes, I was born in Taxachusetts. I have sadly admitted that already. And, now, I live in an even worse place, NJ. (No choice there - my husband is from here and when we got married, he had a job and I didn't so that's how we ended up here).

However, not to beat this dead horse, I gotta point out that my modest house in my modest town charges me $13,000 in property taxes and that doesn't include the school referendum that just passed (add about $400) or the town tax increase or the school budget which will be voted on in two weeks (add another $300). I will be approaching $14,000! And my husband wants our boys to go to Catholic high school for another $8000 per year. I ain't made of money.

That doesn't include, of course, income tax or sales tax which I couldn't begin to figure out. Nor does it include our county property tax. Does NH have those? (I really don't know this).

On the other hand, our gas taxes are the lowest in the country so a gallon of regular is "only" about $3.05. When I filled up today, it went over $60 for the first time.

From where I am sitting, I will take the NH property taxes any day. Besides, if I lived there (soon, please) I could vote for/against them!!!!!

As for politics, I am as liberally conservative or conservatively liberal as they come and don't really pay attention to anything but how much it's going to cost me. Oh, and I really don't want any more McMansions. My parents cottage is just fine, thank you very much.

nj2nh (with an emphasis on the "nh")

[Mark]

Originally Posted by tis

Perfectly said! (from another native)

My friend Chief Fulla Bull says you are all talking with a crooked tongue. The real indigenous NH people named the lake Winnipesaukee. They named the Weirs too. People from over the border came and changed the land.

Native NHites are recent natives. Native because your dictionary lets you call yourself a native if you were born here.

Uhg says my friend. The true natives are the ones that can open a casino on their reservations. The ones that named most of this area.

Not to lose perspective here. Which natives are afraid of invasion from across the borders?

[MAXUM]

NJ2NH-

Common now, NJ must be a utopia, perfect in every way with all that money the state has to spend.

[Weekend Pundit]

I've spent most of my life in New Hampshire. The only exceptions were a few years here and there when we lived in CT, MA, ME, and for a brief period, in PA. (During most if those times I was either a minor, so I had no choice in the matter, or was away at college.)

That said, I have to say I've been disheartened by the changes in our congressional delegation and the fiscal irresponsibility of the state legislature since 2006. Hopefully we can fix that in November 2008.

While property taxes have been going up, we still pay less property taxes than so many of the other more, umm, progressive states. And they have sales taxes, income taxes, or both.

An interesting trend I noticed during this recent town meeting season was the number of towns holding the line on spending. My home town of Gilford managed to keep their spending in check, meaning our tax burden is likely to stay unchanged...except for the county portion of those taxes, but let's not get me started on that thread. Other towns have cut spending, some have increased it, but not by much. When folks get their property tax bills with the new tax rates, some people will actually come to see that their taxes can be controlled by watching the town's spending. Maybe they'll finally get the message that ultimately they are responsible for the rise and fall of their own property taxes.

Then again, maybe not....

[phoenix]

since my mother was born in new hampshire and relatives have been there since 1760 do i get at least half credit as a native. Had no control that she moved to Mass before I was born

[winnidiver]

I think the change you are seeing in NH politics is a reflection of the change in the meaning of conservatives.The conservatives went from being fiscal conservative to being social conservative.We in NH have always had a live and let live attitude.We didn't send a lot of money but we took care of our own.The new Republications spend like liberals and pass laws that benefit big business,at the expense of our environment.
I think the people who have moved here and are disappointed with politics are confusing social conservatism with fiscal conservatism.I don't think they understand the state motto.Live Free Or Die; does not refer to money.

[Merrymeeting]

Perhaps we need to realign the state boundaries. If you look at the voting records you will see that Massachusetts is much like NH. West of Rt 495, the voting and attitudes are very similar to those of "traditional" NH.

Unfortunately, the voting majority is inside 495.

[phoenix]

so we could do a "Gerrymander" take the Mass portion west of 495 and come up through the western portion of New Hampshire( Keene) then cut over north of Manchester and then up to the Canadian border. Maybe we could also take some portion of vermont while we are at it. I think I read a couple of years ago that some town in Vermont wanted to become part of New Hampshire

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by ghfromaltonbay

As those of us from NJ have said in past forum threads -- Don't believe that your property taxes will decrease with the creation of income and sales taxes. We are now up to 7% sales tax, have a graduated income tax, and still pay the highest real estate taxes in the nation. Oh yeah, and the tax burden relief was also supposed to come from the casinos in Atlantic City. The more they tax, the more they spend! Here in NJ we are paying for corruption! Like nj2nh, I can't wait to relocate. I've been visiting the lakes region since 1959 and would gladly trade my $6200 tax bill, sales tax and income tax with any native.

Native? Define native.


If you give it to them they will spend it. Here in NJ you get taxed on toilet paper since it is a luxury. Go figure.

[tis]

ghfromalton bay -I will glady trade mine with your $6200. one. You can keep the sales and income taxes though.

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by tis

ghfromalton bay -I will glady trade mine with your $6200. one. You can keep the sales and income taxes though.

I don't think you would like the location and view..It is near the water, the lovely Passaic River

[tis]

Sorry, I meant I would trade the TAX BILL, not the property!!!

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Maybe we could also take some portion of vermont while we are at it. I think I read a couple of years ago that some town in Vermont wanted to become part of New Hampshire

That was Killington, but Vermont can keep all of itself to itself!

Originally Posted by Mark

My friend Chief Fulla Bull says you are all talking with a crooked tongue. The real indigenous NH people named the lake Winnipesaukee. They named the Weirs too. People from over the border came and changed the land.

Native NHites are recent natives. Native because your dictionary lets you call yourself a native if you were born here.

Uhg says my friend. The true natives are the ones that can open a casino on their reservations. The ones that named most of this area.

Not to lose perspective here. Which natives are afraid of invasion from across the borders?

indigenous (from Merriam Webster online) :
1. having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment
2 : innate, inborn

So yes, white mans dictionary tells me I'm indigenous. Does Chief Fulla Bull contend his people popped out of the dirt on Tower Hill, or did his people move here at one time too?

[SIKSUKR]

If we look at where man might really have come from,ie evolving from ape-like creatures,I don't believe there were any of those indigenous to North America.So I would deduce that American Indians didn't drop out of the sky or pop up through the ground and thus all mankind in NH came from somewhere else.Do they teach this kind of thinking anywhere?

[wildwoodfam]

Originally Posted by phoenix

look what happened to Vermont. It use to be very conservative and primarily farming then became a haven for yuppies from New York and now they have a socialist senator

As someone with fourth generation family roots in VT - it really depends where in VT you came from - and despite the farming and agricultural nature of VT - it was never really a homebase for conservatism... The cities of Burlington, home to four universities has always been a haven of liberal politics, and since the majority of the population lives in that region, hard to say that VT was a conservative state.

Bernie Sanders has done amazing things for the state - starting first in Burlington, and expanding to state-wide. He's a quirky fella to be sure - but a very good leader for VT - and Patrick Leahy could hardly be considered a conservative - nor could the renegade republican, Jeffords.

It was not really and influx of yuppies from NY - had to do more with all the college kids staying in VT after graduating.

Just my opinion....

[dpg]

Originally Posted by ghfromaltonbay

As those of us from NJ have said in past forum threads -- Don't believe that your property taxes will decrease with the creation of income and sales taxes. We are now up to 7% sales tax, have a graduated income tax, and still pay the highest real estate taxes in the nation. Oh yeah, and the tax burden relief was also supposed to come from the casinos in Atlantic City. The more they tax, the more they spend! Here in NJ we are paying for corruption! Like nj2nh, I can't wait to relocate. I've been visiting the lakes region since 1959 and would gladly trade my $6200 tax bill, sales tax and income tax with any native.

Actually $6,200 is more in the norm than you may think! I pay just about exactly that here in Mass. Sales tax I think still at 5% though.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by wildwoodfam

As someone with fourth generation family roots in VT - it really depends where in VT you came from - and despite the farming and agricultural nature of VT - it was never really a homebase for conservatism... The cities of Burlington, home to four universities has always been a haven of liberal politics, and since the majority of the population lives in that region, hard to say that VT was a conservative state.

Bernie Sanders has done amazing things for the state - starting first in Burlington, and expanding to state-wide. He's a quirky fella to be sure - but a very good leader for VT - and Patrick Leahy could hardly be considered a conservative - nor could the renegade republican, Jeffords.

It was not really and influx of yuppies from NY - had to do more with all the college kids staying in VT after graduating.

Just my opinion....

I think Bennington is a pretty liberal area, no?

[topwater]

this State becoming a JOKE. I truly believe it is from all the out of states moving here because they once came up and really enjoyed their vacation. Now, they have moved up here and brought up all their bad attitudes that they are trying to move away from. If they would have just came up here and excepted the NEW HAMPSHIRE life style, and left their old baggage where the moved from!
Yes I am a native of the Lakes Region, and Yes it it very obvious to anyone who has lived here all their life.

[ghfromaltonbay]

Originally Posted by dpg

Actually $6,200 is more in the norm than you may think! I pay just about exactly that here in Mass. Sales tax I think still at 5% though.

But what kind of property do you pay $6200 on? I have a 1500 sq. ft., three bedroom cape built in 1941. It sits on a 46'x100' lot. The city I live in has lower taxes than nearby Essex County (which includes the city of Newark), but I know people in NH who have lakefront property, 5 bedrooms, boathouse, etc. and only pay about $700 more than I do for property taxes.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by topwater

this State becoming a JOKE. I truly believe it is from all the out of states moving here because they once came up and really enjoyed their vacation. Now, they have moved up here and brought up all their bad attitudes that they are trying to move away from. If they would have just came up here and excepted the NEW HAMPSHIRE life style, and left their old baggage where the moved from!
Yes I am a native of the Lakes Region, and Yes it it very obvious to anyone who has lived here all their life.

First, I guess, am a native NH'ite since I was born in NH, but I have lived in MA most of my life. I now have a place in NH and love it here. But I'd challange any "native" to be more "right" of me in my conservatism. Not all moving up here are Liberal wingnuts.

The key to keeping things in check, as others have said is to CONTROL SPENDING! Gov't is not chartered to provide us with museums, art, and Welfare for able-bodied workers.....it's purpose is defense, infrastucture (i.e. roads), and K-12 education, period.

[dpg]

Originally Posted by ghfromaltonbay

But what kind of property do you pay $6200 on? I have a 1500 sq. ft., three bedroom cape built in 1941. It sits on a 46'x100' lot. The city I live in has lower taxes than nearby Essex County (which includes the city of Newark), but I know people in NH who have lakefront property, 5 bedrooms, boathouse, etc. and only pay about $700 more than I do for property taxes.

Oh I don't live in a mansion but is bigger than 1,500. Something like 2,000 I believe, just a split nothing near the nicest in the neighborhood! 6,000 is alot either way, no need for it. But then again there's a need for 3.00 per gallon gas, right?

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

indigenous (from Merriam Webster online) :
1. having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment
2 : innate, inborn
So yes, white mans dictionary tells me I'm indigenous. Does Chief Fulla Bull contend his people popped out of the dirt on Tower Hill, or did his people move here at one time too?

Chief Fulla Bull heard the words and questions from the crooked tongues. He said he looked over that Lady’s book (Merriam of Merriam-Webster – I didn’t bother to explain). You and her book call yourselves native. But you do not give all the meanings. BTW, he said he knows what Merriam means by inborn.

Number 10 on the same list of meanings is Native American: of, relating to or being a member of an aboriginal people of North or South America. His ancestors fit that definition of native too, how about you?

The Chief reads that Merriam has another word for native on that same page, it is aboriginal. Your word for being the first or earliest of its kind present in a region. That is his people. Chief Fulla Bull went on to say that Merriam would call him aboriginal the first or original natives. You do not fit that meaning.

Someone suggesting Indians might believe Native Americans popped out of the dirt on Tower Hill brings a curious laugh from Chief Fulla Bull. He knows how people got here. It wasn't the stork that bought an influx of newcomers either . He said you have no words to explain the origins of his ancestors as it has been passed down for hundreds of generations.

He has heard crooked tongue tales that his people came from monkeys and of people called Adam and Eve but those are not Indian names or theories passed down from his ancestors. We wouldn’t understand the true meaning of the Chief’s words of explanation.

He did say that his people lived near the lake because the Great Spirit made it that way, like the mountains the sky the butterfly and all other things. Like the maize or corn. The Great Spirit made it all including the smiling waters that the newcomers combined to make Lake Winnipesaukee.

Chief shakes his head, says Ugh and talks about the real invaders. The ones we call natives. They took the land. Killed off all the bison, and made many changes. His people did not pollute and even limited smoke signals (not like the text messaging today). The Chief’s natives did not clear cut acres or whole forests. They enjoyed the peace and silence of the area and only made noise on special occasions. They were not afraid to canoe and on and on he went…

He even thought it odd that we have a special day to honor foolishness but not one to reflect on the way of his world before the invaders crossed the borders.

I believe that Chief Fulla Bull thinks his ancestors were the first real natives in this area.

[Ropetow]

Originally Posted by topwater

this State becoming a JOKE. I truly believe it is from all the out of states moving here because they once came up and really enjoyed their vacation. Now, they have moved up here and brought up all their bad attitudes that they are trying to move away from. If they would have just came up here and excepted the NEW HAMPSHIRE life style, and left their old baggage where the moved from!
Yes I am a native of the Lakes Region, and Yes it it very obvious to anyone who has lived here all their life.

Your gross generalization is, plain and simple, wrong. Check my prior posts and try to call me a MA refugee who brought my 'bad attitudes' with me. I am proud to be a NH resident. Wish I did it decades sooner. But what I brought was a belief is small government, low taxes, capitalism and people not sitting by and complaining, but doing something about it. Democracy is work. If more people with a traditional NH philosophy actually took the time and did something about it we'd have a turnaround in the House this fall. If just the people who post on this forum longing for the good-old-days of NH conservatism would contact their state Reps. and Senators and tell them what you want....pay attention to how they vote on legislation and tell them either 'good job' or 'you made a mistake on that one' ... or, most importantly, supported traditional-values candidates in November...starting now...or even ran for the House themselves....thus would be a good start. To steal a phrase from the fraud governor to our south, "Together, we can!"

[Tank151]

Just remember the so called "NH residents" ancestors once came from someplace else? I'm pretty sure you're all not Native American Indians???

Geez all those NH license plates that cross the MA border traveling to work every morning can't be ALL transplants?

Diversity is a constant and will always change local demographics, whether it's NH, MA, FL or CA It's what makes this country.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

No doubt the biggest employer in NH is MA. But those folks also help pay the taxes for a state that does not have to provide them many services.

I use Native of NH like you would use Citizen of the US. If you are born here you are. If not, it's a lot more difficult, but still a noble goal. And since NH does not have a passport, you can make the mental jump anytime you want.

Tourism is the biggest industry in NH.

I would suspect that growing to accommodate the folks moving here for the "good life" provides a close second to the economic engine.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by topwater

this State becoming a JOKE. I truly believe it is from all the out of states moving here because they once came up and really enjoyed their vacation. Now, they have moved up here and brought up all their bad attitudes that they are trying to move away from. If they would have just came up here and excepted the NEW HAMPSHIRE life style, and left their old baggage where the moved from!
Yes I am a native of the Lakes Region, and Yes it it very obvious to anyone who has lived here all their life.

Top,

It is too bad that you feel the way you do- the bottom line is that there are "natives" and "out of states (sic)" with lousy attitudes. Moving from one part of the jungle does not make a leopard change his or her spots.

I do agree with the part about trying to fix things that are not broken, but perhaps some fresh perspectives may effect positive changes.

[Joe Kerr]

Originally Posted by Mark

Chief Fulla Bull heard the words and questions from the crooked tongues. He said he looked over that Lady’s book (Merriam of Merriam-Webster – I didn’t bother to explain). You and her book call yourselves native. But you do not give all the meanings. BTW, he said he knows what Merriam means by inborn.

Number 10 on the same list of meanings is Native American: of, relating to or being a member of an aboriginal people of North or South America. His ancestors fit that definition of native too, how about you?

The Chief reads that Merriam has another word for native on that same page, it is aboriginal. Your word for being the first or earliest of its kind present in a region. That is his people. Chief Fulla Bull went on to say that Merriam would call him aboriginal the first or original natives. You do not fit that meaning.

Someone suggesting Indians might believe Native Americans popped out of the dirt on Tower Hill brings a curious laugh from Chief Fulla Bull. He knows how people got here. It wasn't the stork that bought an influx of newcomers either . He said you have no words to explain the origins of his ancestors as it has been passed down for hundreds of generations.

He has heard crooked tongue tales that his people came from monkeys and of people called Adam and Eve but those are not Indian names or theories passed down from his ancestors. We wouldn’t understand the true meaning of the Chief’s words of explanation.

He did say that his people lived near the lake because the Great Spirit made it that way, like the mountains the sky the butterfly and all other things. Like the maize or corn. The Great Spirit made it all including the smiling waters that the newcomers combined to make Lake Winnipesaukee.

Chief shakes his head, says Ugh and talks about the real invaders. The ones we call natives. They took the land. Killed off all the bison, and made many changes. His people did not pollute and even limited smoke signals (not like the text messaging today). The Chief’s natives did not clear cut acres or whole forests. They enjoyed the peace and silence of the area and only made noise on special occasions. They were not afraid to canoe and on and on he went…

He even thought it odd that we have a special day to honor foolishness but not one to reflect on the way of his world before the invaders crossed the borders.

I believe that Chief Fulla Bull thinks his ancestors were the first real natives in this area.

What is the Chief infering about "inborn" people of NH?

I thought aborigines were the topless people I'd see in National Geographic pictures. I never saw any NH native people in their magazines or on their TV specials.

I think the Chief has a good idea with a NATIVE AMERICAN holiday as long as it is on a Monday .

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Mark

I believe that Chief Fulla Bull thinks his ancestors were the first real natives in this area.

Excellent points, which makes me even more determined to not let outsiders do to me what my invading ancestors did to him. I mean, after we killed off all the bison, what was left?

[Weirs guy]

So I decided to give Marks post some thought after my last response and went for a walk. Along the way I met Chief Fulla Bull’s grandson, Learnfromthepast.

Even though I am a simple inborn with a crooked tongue, Learnfromthepast offered some insight into this thread. It turns out that me and his grandfather share parallel experiences in his eyes. We both moved to a place that we loved for its beauty. We lived there every day of our lives, in harmony with nature as much as we could (Learnfromthepast points out I have not done as good of a job as his grandfather did though) and enjoying our lives as best we can. But then one day strangers came from the south (Learnfromthepast did not have a word for the place they came from, but we do today) and found our home. We tried to welcome the strangers, to embrace our differences and learn from each other.

Some of the strangers welcomed this and lived and learned with us, but others of them did not. They thought we were “simple” people who needed the strangers ideas and beliefs to “save ourselves”. The strangers began to change our homes to met their needs. They tried to “educate us” to show that we could be better people if we tried to be more like the strangers. They wanted to help themselves to our land, our resources. They wanted to bring in their governments, their ideals. These strangers did not stop to realize that what had brought us and them to the same place would be changed by this, they simply continued relentlessly to instill their ways.

Learnfromthepast became very sad at this point. He said that my inborn crooked tongue could not understand the words for the sorrow his grandfather felt when he had to move his people far away from the strangers to save what was left of his peoples ways. Learnfromthepast never lived by the Smile of the Great Spirit, and therefore was sad he could never love it as his grandfather and I do.

Learnfromthepast then asked me if I would go quietly into the night as his people did, or would I Learn-from-the-past?

Now I ask you all, what type of stranger are you?

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I do agree with the part about trying to fix things that are not broken, but perhaps some fresh perspectives may effect positive changes.

Sounds like a contradiction. Perhaps a fresh perspective may effect that mere difference does not necessitate change on NH's part.

[sa meredith]

I haven't spent a large amount of time with this thread, but giving it a quick read, it seems the issue is people coming in from other States, buying property, and changing things from "the way they were". And, while I would agree there is simply too much of that (McMansions, the disappearing of the true lake front seasonal cottage, etc.) my thought would simply be this. If a transaction does not have a buyer and a seller, there is no transaction. So maybe issue should be taken with all the "long time in the family" properties, that finally landed in the hands of someone who decided to take their huge profit, instead of living the good lake life. Should there be no responsibility placed on the shoulders of the "sell outs"?

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by Skip

We are deep in to our second year legislative session of a Democratic Governor with a clear Democratic majority on the Executive Council, The House and the Senate. And what do we not have? Yep, no general sales or income tax!

Regardless of the party affiliation of the folks representing us in Concord, survey after survey and election after election always ends with the same result, the majority of the taxpayers in New Hampshire do not want their elected representatives to replace our current property tax system with a sales or income tax scheme.

I would say that the facts speak for themselves

Reality check, Jan 2008, from Rep Jessie Osborne (D): "I believe something must be done now, and that Democrats were elected to majorities in both the House and Senate at least in part so that a permanent solution could be brought about." HB 1593 establishes a combination statewide "enhanced education" property tax at $5.50 per $1,000 of equalized assessed valuation, with a $200,000 homestead exemption; and a 4 percent education income tax with liberal income exemptions and a credit for the statewide property tax the household pays

He further states: "I wish to thank my co-sponsors - Democratic Reps. Chuck Weed of Keene, James Phinizy of Acworth and Mary Cooney of Plymouth - for their support and work in preparing and presenting this bill. I also thank the members of the House Ways and Means Committee, chaired by Democratic Rep. Susan Almy of Lebanon, for their open-minded reception".

It does matter who our elected reps are. Democrats have proven over and over again how much they want to spend our money. Beware, all polititians are not the same.

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Should there be no responsibility placed on the shoulders of the "sell outs"?

I respectfully suggest that you aren't being fair to most of the people in the situation described.

We were lucky enough to be able to buy our Merrymeeting camp (and yes, it IS a camp) when we did. But I will admit I felt somewhat guilty doing so knowing whom we were buying from.

My family has been on Merrymeeting for 40+ years. The family we bought from had been there longer. But the patriarchs had passed, and the siblings were at diffferent places in life. Half desperately wanted to keep the family heirloom, the other half would have liked to keep it, but needed the money. The first half were not in position to buy out the other half.

So they sold.

I like to think that we have continued the traditions and family ties that the original owners intended. But at the same time I hope my children will never face the agonizing choice that led to our lake home. But.... they probably will....

[Orion]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

Should there be no responsibility placed on the shoulders of the "sell outs"?

Unfortunately, many have no choice as they have been taxed out of their heirloom. Blame the rising taxes......hmmm.....seems like an endless loop.

[fatlazyless]

What's becoming more in use for us poverty-stricken, down & out, hard scrabble, & hard working, waterfront property owners is the relatively new financial contraption called the reverse mortgage. A federal banking rule requires you to be 62 before applying, and supposedly a reverse mortgage will continue to dish out the property tax, a monthly allowance, 100 gallons-o-gas, one 30-pak of Bud, two pizzarama pizzas, and two cartons of Camel non-filters/week.

Seems like a terrific plan......sign on and then cruise the Big Lake in style til you are 102.....then down size to a kayak & granola for your good health.....what's not to like?

40 years on the mortgage company's nickel! How much will my property taxes be in 2048?

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Seems like a terrific plan......

Unless you have children and grandchildren that you had hoped would be able to enjoy the lake as much as you have.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

A reverse mortgage "can" be a terrific option for some situations. I helped my parents get one this year and it made a great deal of sense for their situation.

The banks are not on the hook. There is a pretty hefty up front charge that essentially tries to fund an insurance pool in case their house value goes down dramatically someday or they live longer than the actuarial tables predict. After that you and I assume the risk as tax payers. Apparently the government sees the value in folks being able to keep their homes even under less than ideal circumstances. Every town needs some retired folks to keep the property taxes down (No kids but still pay property taxes) and demand for houses up.

I would support a gradual phase out of property taxes based on age with a long residence period. The financial and cultural benefit to a "balanced" community makes sense to me. Can you tell I'm gettin older.

[Airwaves]

So explain to me what you mean by a “New Hampshire native”

http://www.usahistory.info/New-Engla...Hampshire.html

In 1639 the towns formed an agreement to unite, but as Massachusetts claimed this territory, the towns at length agreed to come under her jurisdiction. The union was formed in 1641, the people of the settlements retaining liberty to manage their "town affairs," and each town was permitted to send a deputy to the General Court at Boston.

New Hampshire continued a part of Massachusetts until 1679, when the king separated them. He joined them again in 1686; but they were finally separated in 1691.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

So explain to me what you mean by a “New Hampshire native”
http://www.usahistory.info/New-Engla...Hampshire.html

Here's what I thought.
The real natives?There are none.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we look at where man might really have come from,ie evolving from ape-like creatures,I don't believe there were any of those indigenous to North America.So I would deduce that American Indians didn't drop out of the sky or pop up through the ground and thus all mankind in NH came from somewhere else.Do they teach this kind of thinking anywhere?

Beyond this I would guess being born in NH and nobody is around that was born in the part of NH that once was Mass.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Sounds like a contradiction. Perhaps a fresh perspective may effect that mere difference does not necessitate change on NH's part.

Not a contradiction at all- I said I agree that things that are not broken don't need to be fixed. I have yet to meet a perfect person or see a perfect state- if you think nothing in this state needs to be changed, it is my opinion that you are mistaken.

Regards

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

Not a contradiction at all- I said I agree that things that are not broken don't need to be fixed. I have yet to meet a perfect person or see a perfect state- if you think nothing in this state needs to be changed, it is my opinion that you are mistaken.

Regards

VitaBene,
I think we are in agreement. What is unknown in our discussion is what in New Hampshire rises to the threshold of being broken or needing improvement. I am sure there are many we could agree on and many we might not. That's what makes it interesting.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

VitaBene,
I think we are in agreement. What is unknown in our discussion is what in New Hampshire rises to the threshold of being broken or needing improvement. I am sure there are many we could agree on and many we might not. That's what makes it interesting.

True, very true! FYI I don't think there are many "broken" things in the great state of NH!!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by SIKSUKR
Here's what I thought.
The real natives?There are none.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we look at where man might really have come from,ie evolving from ape-like creatures,I don't believe there were any of those indigenous to North America.So I would deduce that American Indians didn't drop out of the sky or pop up through the ground and thus all mankind in NH came from somewhere else.Do they teach this kind of thinking anywhere?

Beyond this I would guess being born in NH and nobody is around that was born in the part of NH that once was Mass.

I tend to agree which is why this is kind of silly.

There will always be someone claiming to have deeper roots from "here" than someone else so since there is no real starting point then "natives" have to deal with what they think is the problem.

My take is that if you make a place more attractive economically to live and work than surrounding areas then why would anyone be surprised when people from "away" move here, eventually becoming the majority and change the demographic and/or political makeup of "here"?

[Buffalo Jim]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

Excellent points, which makes me even more determined to not let outsiders do to me what my invading ancestors did to him. I mean, after we killed off all the bison, what was left?

Hummm, I did not know we killed off all the bison? According to the National Bison Assoc. at the last census in 2002 there were 232,000 head living in the US. And there are many farms in Canada as well.


NH definitely has changed since I came to the state 20 some years ago. And I did leave for work a few times as well but I still always seem to come back to where I enjoy life the most. This time I left the corporate world to buy a NH based business and sell that bison meat that we supposedly killed off many years ago. I may not have the paycheck I had in NYC or Mass but I have much more enjoyment from my work now. And I get to wake up and look out over Alton Bay each morning....

Jim
Healthy Buffalo
Chichester NH

[SAMIAM]

Weirs guy....that was awesome.Well said

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Welcome Buffalo Jim,
Glad you took Rattlesnake Gal's advice to check out the forum. Happy to report everyone really enjoyed the buffalo burgers she picked up at your place on the way up to the lake.

[pmj]

HI Buffalo Jim,
We are taking a trip this summer to yellowstone, where there is still plenty of Bison. In fact, we've been meaning to stop by your place and pick up some bison to try. I understand it is offered on restaurant menus galore out west.
What does Bison meat taste like? I understand it is leaner than other beef.

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Weirs guy....that was awesome.Well said

WG... Right on point as usual. But.. I disagree.. ( What a great country!)

What kind am I?.. Great question ! ( but you may not like some of the answer!)

So. to keep this going.. I'm going to stray off point.

I'm a non native, transplant, (Department of Redundancy Department) Lefty Democrat.. (whew.. Hi, My name is SteveA and I like Obama and Jeanne Shaheen )

The motto "Live Free or Die" is a shorter version of the original toast from NH greatest hero John Stark. If you research his personal history.. he, and his NH vounteers saved the day at Bunker (Breeds) Hill.

"The phrase comes from a toast written by General John Stark on July 31, 1809. Poor health forced Stark, New Hampshire's most famous soldier of the American Revolutionary War, to decline an invitation to an anniversary reunion of the Battle of Bennington and to send his toast by letter:

Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils. "

Sadly, this great man's comments has turned into some sort of "Tax Thing" . or "Life Style Thing". Sad that so many people have no idea of all of what he really said and most likely meant. (My guess is that the Whole phrase wouldn't all fit on the license plate! I'm afraid that this great man's words have been highjacked. The NH of the 1950's was decidedly "right of center" , and that's when the motto was adopted.

He certainly didn't mean political intolerance. He fought to create freedom of political belief. I bet he would be horrified by the use of a snipet of his toast to be translated into any sort of political agenda.. left or right.

I see "Live Free or Die" misused all over the place on the forum.. from speed limits to property taxes. Sad.

Check out our biggest hero John Stark.. we all need to be careful when we invoke his words. (Remember.. it was POLITICIANS..that used his words.. and we all know how reliable they are.. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_Free_or_Die

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stark

So, am I a native? NO. Am I in the minority YES .. in central NH.
But, much to the dismay of many "natives" a more "left" influence is starting to show up here in the Lakes Region.

And.. YES.. WG It's almost BIKE WEEK... and you still owe me a beer!

[ITD]

Originally Posted by SteveA

WG... Right on point as usual. But.. I disagree.. ( What a great country!)

What kind am I?.. Great question ! ( but you may not like some of the answer!)

So. to keep this going.. I'm going to stray off point.

I'm a non native, transplant, (Department of Redundancy Department) Lefty Democrat.. (whew.. Hi, My name is SteveA and I like Obama and Jeanne Shaheen )

The motto "Live Free or Die" is a shorter version of the original toast from NH greatest hero John Stark. If you research his personal history.. he, and his NH vounteers saved the day at Bunker (Breeds) Hill.

"The phrase comes from a toast written by General John Stark on July 31, 1809. Poor health forced Stark, New Hampshire's most famous soldier of the American Revolutionary War, to decline an invitation to an anniversary reunion of the Battle of Bennington and to send his toast by letter:

Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils. "

Sadly, this great mans comments has turned into some sort of "Tax Thing" . or "Life Style Thing". Sad that so many people have no idea of all of what he really said and most likely meant. (My guess is that the Whole phrae wouldn't all fit on the license plate! I'm afraid that this great man's words have been highjacked. The NH of the 1950's was decidedly "right of center" , and that's when the motto was adopted.

He certainly didn't mean political intolerance. He fought to create freedom of political belief. I bet he would be horrified by the use of a snipet of his toast to be translated into any sort of political agenda.. left or right.

I see "Live Free or Die" misused all over the place on the forum.. from speed limits to property taxes. Sad.

Check out our biggest hero John Stark.. we all need to be careful when we invoke his words. (Remember.. it was POLITICIANS..that used his words.. and we all know how reliable they are.. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_Free_or_Die

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stark

So, am I a native? NO. Am I in the minority YES .. in central NH.
But, much to the dismay of many "natives" a more "left" influence is starting to show up here in the Lakes Region.

And.. YES.. WG It's almost BIKE WEEK... and you still owe me a beer!

Steve,

I'm afraid you have totally missed the point. Please read WG's post again.

ITD


WG

Very nice job.....

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by ITD

Steve,

I'm afraid you have totally missed the point. Please read WG's post again.

ITD


WG

Very nice job.....

ITD... you are correct.. I missed the point... I'll repeat the comment I made.
"WG... Right on point as usual"

I'll ask all of the rest to see my additional comments as "stand alone", not related to WG.

As a "transplant" I still feel that some folks here in NH (Natives) won't except the fact that this state is drawing in all sorts of folks.

Most I know are very willing to gladly adopt the traditional NH "way". As I stated.. so am I. But.. change is coming to NH. Some organic, some from the outside.

The old saying goes something like this..

"To keep doing the same thing the same way and expect different results is a perfect description of insanity"

Regardless of anyones political leanings.. to live with a false ( or misunderstood) idea of what John Stark meant by the paraphased "Live Free or Die" is to continue to keep doing the same thing in the same way.

That was my point.. poorly stated.

I did give a Highjack warning!

The last thing I would do is start a new "speed limit" type debate. It's just my opinion, and the opinion of many other "transplants" that sorta feel like outsiders.. even when we "mostly" agree with the NH way.

If "natives" take that as a problem.. then maybe the problem belongs to them. No disrespect intended. (maybe a vote to close the border would be in order.. Just kidding.. all nasty responses to this part of my message will be ignored! )

fo·rum (fôrm, fr-)
n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr, fr)
1.
a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.
2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

[HUH]

I was born in MA.. Spent every summer and weekend I could in Gilford until finaly moving here permanently 10 years ago.
Let me reassure any true Native that I do not bring any Liberal leanings or ideas with me. In fact I am a super conservative.
Why anyone would think bigger govt. more laws and higher taxes could be the answer is beyond me.
Im sickened by the recent political decisions. NH is realy going the way of Taxachussettes.
A 45 mph speed limit ? How truely pathetic
A $1000 dollar fine for taking a wizz as 50 of my neighbors let there dogs relieve themselves on my Hostas?
Stop the insanity!!

[Mink Islander]

A thoughtful comment and some interesting history.