Looking Ahead - Beyond the Curve

[SailinAway]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailinAway View Post
So the first lesson I hope we will learn from this crisis is that the common good IS also the individual good.

Originally Posted by Chris M

You'd have fit right into 1940 Germany with that sentiment.

Conversely, America was founded on the idea of the supremacy of the individual. Granted, we've deviated wildly from that founding premise as time has marched on.

Chris, my statement was an expression of concern for our fellow human beings. Here's an example. In the US we have a very large homeless population, both on the streets and in shelters. Why should we care about them? Aside from the obvious humanitarian reasons, it's because we are all socially connected one way or another. If we don't provide health care for homeless people and they become infected, eventually their illness will spread to us. Why should you care about COVID-19 in other countries? Because if you don't, eventually it will spread to your country. When the world is healthy, your chances of being healthy are higher.

Does that sound like naziism to you? In fact it's the opposite of naziism.

Getting to your second point, about America being founded on the supremacy of the individual, I don't think that history supports that. America was founded on the idea of a supreme race, the idea that one race of people could rob the land and resources of another race (referring now to all of the Americas), use genocide to finish them off, and enslave millions of people. All justified by racial superiority. That is frighteningly close to the Nazi claim of racial superiority justifying theft and genocide.

However, even if the United States were founded on this or that idea, that does not prevent us from evolving into a better society now. An understanding of history is a good place to start. When I was in school we learned about the Indians and Thanksgiving. Our teachers never mentioned what happened to all the Indians. That doesn't prevent us from learning about that today, just as you could learn what naziism actually is.

[Chris M]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

Getting to your second point, about America being founded on the supremacy of the individual, I don't think that history supports that. America was founded on the idea of a supreme race, the idea that one race of people could rob the land and resources of another race (referring now to all of the Americas), use genocide to finish them off, and enslave millions of people. All justified by racial superiority. That is frighteningly close to the Nazi claim of racial superiority justifying theft and genocide.

The Declaration of Independence supports my claim on America's founding principles. Certain inalienable rights, not granted by rulers, but derived from our humanity. Those human rights aren't to be screwed with in theory.

As far as the supreme race talk. I can only chalk that up to something in your history, childhood likely, making it attractive to you to oddly insert that strange claim into the conversation.

Nazism puts the state/motherland first and the individual last. The supremacy of the individual turns that on its head. The smallest minority in the world is the individual.

[SailinAway]

Originally Posted by Chris M

The Declaration of Independence supports my claim on America's founding principles. Certain inalienable rights, not granted by rulers, but derived from our humanity. Those human rights aren't to be screwed with in theory.

As far as the supreme race talk. I can only chalk that up to something in your history, childhood likely, making it attractive to you to oddly insert that strange claim into the conversation.

Nazism puts the state/motherland first and the individual last. The supremacy of the individual turns that on its head. The smallest minority in the world is the individual.

The founding of our country didn't begin with the Declaration of Independence. The direction of the country was set well before that, with the first arrival of Europeans in the Americas. When you elevate the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to God-like status, you forget about the millions of people who were deprived of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness throughout all of American history.

Do you think that Naziism was really about Hitler's love of the motherland? That's problematical because (1) he wasn't German and (2) he utterly and completely destroyed Germany. The motherland ideal wasn't about Germany at all, it was about the insanity of one individual, his hunger for power, and his diabolical ability to convince millions of people that they were a superior race. Naziism was a cult that put one individual first. The motherland and antisemitism were just handy tropes for promoting a dictator.

[Mr. V]

I am surprised that nobody, no organization, has filed suit to challenge the shut-down orders: if suits have been filed I'm unaware of the fact.

Rather than us bicker about what is right or wrong it would be best to submit the question to those best in a position to determine its legitimacy.

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

I am surprised that nobody, no organization, has filed suit to challenge the shut-down orders: if suits have been filed I'm unaware of the fact.

Rather than us bicker about what is right or wrong it would be best to submit the question to those best in a position to determine its legitimacy.

It's not as bold as what you suggest but a lawyer in CT is suing Governor Ned Lamont over his executive mandate requiring people to wear face masks.

His filing alleges that the damage to his personal freedom caused by the order "far outweighs any theoretical public benefit" to being compelled to wear a mask or facial covering while in public.

His firm must be shut down and he's tired of watching Night Court reruns. He's clearly got too much time on his hands.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by SailinAway

The founding of our country didn't begin with the Declaration of Independence. The direction of the country was set well before that, with the first arrival of Europeans in the Americas. When you elevate the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution to God-like status, you forget about the millions of people who were deprived of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness throughout all of American history. Do you think that Naziism was really about Hitler's love of the motherland? That's problematical because (1) he wasn't German and (2) he utterly and completely destroyed Germany. The motherland ideal wasn't about Germany at all, it was about the insanity of one individual, his hunger for power, and his diabolical ability to convince millions of people that they were a superior race. Naziism was a cult that put one individual first. The motherland and antisemitism were just handy tropes for promoting a dictator.

Geesh...just one minute at Google rips-up the above diversion of our forum's COVID-19 topic:
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...ar-i-1913-1919