Cyanobacteria Alert Issued for Blackey Cove (Moultonborough)

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by ApS

Why aren't these aerial photos labeled as being Lake Kanasatka?

It appears to be in an area of low (local) elevation, downstream from a highway, much cleared land, mostly deciduous trees, and without any dwellings (or lawns) nearby.

APS;

This is definitely Blackey Cove. If you do a Google Earth search you can clearly see the similarities...

Dan

[ITD]

It's Blackey Cove.

[LIforrelaxin]

I have been thinking about this a bit since I saw this thread. Lawns are not the only problem that is upsetting the eco system. Although it is what I see people focus in on. As the natural watershed around the lake continues to be developed, these problems will only increase.....As I don't see the development stopping the only why to help curb the damage is going to be through education.

Getting people to understand what contaminates the watershed and what doesn't. As I have talked to people over the years, I have found that many people don't understand the consequences of mundane things they do....The sad part is even after being educated many people just don't care, it is to important to wash their boats, have green grass, take down trees so that they have a sunny yard all day long etc.

Winnipesaukee, is a wonderful fantastic place, that we have all come to love, the problem is all that love, is taking a toll.... And the next generation of lake addicts just doesn't seem to care about the damage their need to have the perfect lakeside home will do to the environment.

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I have been thinking about this a bit since I saw this thread. Lawns are not the only problem that is upsetting the eco system. Although it is what I see people focus in on. As the natural watershed around the lake continues to be developed, these problems will only increase.....As I don't see the development stopping the only why to help curb the damage is going to be through education.

Getting people to understand what contaminates the watershed and what doesn't. As I have talked to people over the years, I have found that many people don't understand the consequences of mundane things they do....The sad part is even after being educated many people just don't care, it is to important to wash their boats, have green grass, take down trees so that they have a sunny yard all day long etc.

Winnipesaukee, is a wonderful fantastic place, that we have all come to love, the problem is all that love, is taking a toll.... And the next generation of lake addicts just doesn't seem to care about the damage their need to have the perfect lakeside home will do to the environment.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all the Live Free or Die folks but, while education is helpful and will bring some people to their senses, governmental intervention and the costs that come with it is the only way this issue has a chance of being solved. A majority of folks just aren't going to contribute to a solution. As you point out, far too many people just don't care.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Winilyme

I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all the Live Free or Die folks but, while education is helpful and will bring some people to their senses, governmental intervention and the costs that come with it is the only way this issue has a chance of being solved. A majority of folks just aren't going to contribute to a solution. As you point out, far too many people just don't care.

Because the "Government" handles everything else so well...

[camp guy]

Maybe the cost of mitigation should be assessed against the offending landowners. The costs to include the direct expenses to mitigate a bloom, and the lost revenue from tourists who choose not to visit due to the bloom.
I realize this is probably not a feasible idea, but even people with waterfront living still feel the hit to their pocketbook.

[John Mercier]

The State controls the lake, so it becomes their responsibility.

They control septic systems... so them again... though not sure why fecal bacteria counts wouldn't rise if it were that. Maybe not testing?

I know they blue dyed the Laconia State Prison when fecal contamination was discovered in Winnisquam.

I can't imagine that it would cost me a lot more when my septic is pumped to have them add the blue dye.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by Winilyme

I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all the Live Free or Die folks but, while education is helpful and will bring some people to their senses, governmental intervention and the costs that come with it is the only way this issue has a chance of being solved. A majority of folks just aren't going to contribute to a solution. As you point out, far too many people just don't care.

As a member/supporter of multiple lake associations who do a great job of protecting their respective lakes, I find these comments insulting, although I know that is not the intent. If things are so great in CT, why do you come to NH? I think we all see many many surveys, studies, etc. that rank NH as one of the most desirable places to live in the USA. We also see reports of folks fleeing NY, CT, NJ where there is an overabundance of gov't and taxes. When there is an (environmental) issue, government is rarely a leader in solutions. In fact no action at all until the groups mentioned above start their responses.

[Winilyme]

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt as I definitely didn't mean to offend. I just can't see past the continued degradation of our environment unless authorities of some sort enforce mandatory change. The people that care are simply outnumbered by those that don't. Does anyone really think the lake's environmental problems will reverse if left in the hands of education and grass roots alone?

Never said things are so great in CT.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Winilyme

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt as I definitely didn't mean to offend. I just can't see past the continued degradation of our environment unless authorities of some sort enforce mandatory change. The people that care are simply outnumbered by those that don't. Does anyone really think the lake's environmental problems will reverse if left in the hands of education and grass roots alone?

Never said things are so great in CT.

I agree and remember learning about when rivers caught on fire and air in some cities was unbreathable.

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[ITD]

Hmmm, let's talk about boat wakes and fertilizer from sources not on the lake, which due to sheer numbers probably have a larger impact. Lake Kanasatka doesn't appear to have a lot of lawns on it but has a big problem.

Boats, big wakes from boats are a definite problem. Now that these wakes are not around the turbidity of the water is much better. How much extra nutrients are washed into the lake from large boat wakes?

New Hampshire has some of the toughest septic standards in the country from what I understand. When a house is transacted an inspection is required. I'm thinking the number of problem septic systems is probably pretty small.

Leaves and pine needles, we are in the fall season, lots of leaves and pine needles end up in the lake, how much nitrogen and phosphorus is added naturally to the lakes this time of year?

All interesting and relevant questions IMO.

[Descant]

Good points, ITD. Some thoughts about septics. Especially around lakes with old camps that have been upgraded to year round use: septics around lakes don't (visibly) fail the way they do in a subdivision, they leach into the lake. When an old camp passes within the family, there is likely no inspection, dye test, etc.

We think mostly about waterfront and the 250' buffer. In many instances, a septic failure up gradient may fail and leach into the lake, traversing over the road and down gradient property. Same with other road and land chemicals. We don't talk about it much, but slope and type of soil as well as the characteristics of the water shed/table play a big part in how chemicals move into our lakes. At least we're not dumping stuff intro the lake by the barrelful the way we did 100 years ago.

Talk earlier about gov't rules, but recall it was the US EPA that "forced" us into MtBE, which ended up contaminating drinking water all over the country, in (misguided?) attempts to clean up the air.

[root1]

How about a mandate requiring every waterfront property to have a certified inspection of the home's septic system (w/ dated pictures); at the expense of the homeowner? Pump-out records, waste pipe integrity, current flow capacity test, leach field condition, and pump-out records should be required. Similar inspections should be required of any restaurants or municipal waste lines within 250' of the lake.

There is no shortage of summer homes whose owners have no idea if they even have a 'real' septic system, where it is located, or even care if it has ever been pumped out. Others have grey water dumping into the lake.

As unpopular for the politicians and expensive for the property owners, the sources of leachate can be located.

[tis]

Originally Posted by root1

How about a mandate requiring every waterfront property to have a certified inspection of the home's septic system (w/ dated pictures); at the expense of the homeowner? Pump-out records, waste pipe integrity, current flow capacity test, leach field condition, and pump-out records should be required. Similar inspections should be required of any restaurants or municipal waste lines within 250' of the lake.

There is no shortage of summer homes whose owners have no idea if they even have a 'real' septic system, where it is located, or even care if it has ever been pumped out. Others have grey water dumping into the lake.

As unpopular for the politicians and expensive for the property owners, the sources of leachate can be located.

OMG, let's report in to the government what time we go to bed at night and what time we get up in the morning.

[LIforrelaxin]

Wow, people really seem to want to reach here....

The idea that every lake front home needs an inspection, is logistically not practical. However good the idea might be. On top of which there is no guarantee that a system passing at year n will continue to pass n+M years into the future.

There are however things people can do....I still see many homeowners and even some landscape companies blowing leaves into the lake... While this number had dwindled I still see evidence of it. This is an education mater, and maybe eventually something that could carry a fine.

Requiring new development along the water to create a more natural buffer at the lake shore....

Stop allowing even perched beaches, the beach sand most people use is not good for the lake, and regardless of how well the beach is created there is always a leaching effect.

Focusing on the smaller things through education is IMHO the way to go....

[winterh]

I am all for whatever needs to be or can be done to save the lake even if it costs me some money but are leaves really a significant part of the problem? I would think that millions upon millions of leaves have been falling into the lake forever and the amount blown into lake on purpose must be insignificant. A house with a big green lawn and minimal trees would seem to be a bigger issue than a wooded site dropping leaves.

[tis]

Originally Posted by winterh

I am all for whatever needs to be or can be done to save the lake even if it costs me some money but are leaves really a significant part of the problem? I would think that millions upon millions of leaves have been falling into the lake forever and the amount blown into lake on purpose must be insignificant. A house with a big green lawn and minimal trees would seem to be a bigger issue than a wooded site dropping leaves.

You do know don't you that in the old days that there were many less trees and the grass fields where the cows ate went right to the lake???? From North Main St. you could easily see the lake.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

You do know don't you that in the old days that there were many less trees and the grass fields where the cows ate went right to the lake???? From North Main St. you could easily see the lake.

So maybe the State could make you rip down all the houses and bring back the cows.

[John Mercier]

I doubt the leaves are. But it is a waste. I take extra leaves onto my property because as they compost I get the added benefit without any cost to me.

It seems to be more a cumulative effect of lots of factors.

Education has been ongoing for years, and stopping the affect of new development isn't going to fix an existing problem. You could stop all new development... double education efforts... and we will still see the current trend continue. Inertia has taken over.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

The idea that every lake front home needs an inspection, is logistically not practical. However good the idea might be. On top of which there is no guarantee that a system passing at year n will continue to pass n+M years into the future.

Yet we know that every septic needs to be pumped/maintained periodically, and that many owners ignore this. We should be able to require that every homeowner pump on a schedule that makes sense for that home. This does not need to be some big government intrusion, people just need to call their septic guy once every few years.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Yet we know that every septic needs to be pumped/maintained periodically, and that many owners ignore this. We should be able to require that every homeowner pump on a schedule that makes sense for that home. This does not need to be some big government intrusion, people just need to call their septic guy once every few years.

Actually, they call me. Or more accurately they send me a post card with the date of my last pump out and a recommendation based on the results at that time.

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by root1

How about a mandate requiring every waterfront property to have a certified inspection of the home's septic system (w/ dated pictures); at the expense of the homeowner? Pump-out records, waste pipe integrity, current flow capacity test, leach field condition, and pump-out records should be required. Similar inspections should be required of any restaurants or municipal waste lines within 250' of the lake.

In March, New Durham passed new regs to enable most of the above ideas. Time will tell how well it works but should help to protect Merrymeeting, and Winnipesaukee as most Merrymeeting water eventually passes to Alton Bay.

Simply stated, any septic system that does not have an approved plan of record recorded with the town, or that has been in use for 20 or more years, needs to have a certified installer inspect the system to certify that it's working as designed.

[John Mercier]

I think you will find that it is not septic systems.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I think you will find that it is not septic systems.

I agree that they are not the total cause but, they are part of it. You may be able to solve the “green lawn” problem thru education (but I doubt it) but there is also phosphates and other nutrients from entering thru bad septic systems and I don’t believe education will correct this either.


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[John Mercier]

A septic system failure would result in fecal contamination that the DES would need to issue an alert on and immediate action would need to be taken.

What causes the blooms is nutrient loading.

Nutrient loading can be the result of nutrients that are trapped in the bottom soils and released during an upwelling (which is why it can happen below the ice), or any time that water is ''stirred'' by either weather or other activities.

Surface run-off is the most noted nutrient loading factor, and can come from a lot longer distance than one might expect, especially during times of heavy and frequent run-off.

In domestic waste water, this would be most often from things like laundry detergent. It contains a lot of whitener (phosphorus)... that maybe overloading the soil around the leach beds... but also may be just running to a grey water system. The soil during heavy and frequent precipitation will ''wash'' the nutrients from the soil.

The same thing happens with our raised garden and container planters, just in a truncated timeline due to the smaller volume of soil/potting medium being able to harbor less.

So it may not be directly related to the lakefront property... the lake front property at one time being the ''last defense''. It may be travelling down our roads and entering through any spot that it can enter a stream, brook, or intermittent run-off point.

We may be just seeing the beginning of the outcome of decades of nutrient loading.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

A septic system failure would result in fecal contamination that the DES would need to issue an alert on and immediate action would need to be taken.

What causes the blooms is nutrient loading.

Nutrient loading can be the result of nutrients that are trapped in the bottom soils and released during an upwelling (which is why it can happen below the ice), or any time that water is ''stirred'' by either weather or other activities.

Surface run-off is the most noted nutrient loading factor, and can come from a lot longer distance than one might expect, especially during times of heavy and frequent run-off.

In domestic waste water, this would be most often from things like laundry detergent. It contains a lot of whitener (phosphorus)... that maybe overloading the soil around the leach beds... but also may be just running to a grey water system. The soil during heavy and frequent precipitation will ''wash'' the nutrients from the soil.

The same thing happens with our raised garden and container planters, just in a truncated timeline due to the smaller volume of soil/potting medium being able to harbor less.

So it may not be directly related to the lakefront property... the lake front property at one time being the ''last defense''. It may be travelling down our roads and entering through any spot that it can enter a stream, brook, or intermittent run-off point.

We may be just seeing the beginning of the outcome of decades of nutrient loading.

Agreed, and more development means less natural filtration and more nutrient loading.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Nutrient loading can be the result of nutrients that are trapped in the bottom soils and released during an upwelling (which is why it can happen below the ice), or any time that water is ''stirred'' by either weather or other activities.

Does this mean we're creating more problems using bubblers to protect docks? I always wondered if these circulators are raising the overall temp of the lake, and is there a long term impact.

[icg56]

Bubblers that pump cold air into the Lake to move water or circulators should expose the Lake to colder temperatures, not warm the Lake. Ice acts as an insulator against the cold of winter below the ice, so anything that exposes warmer deep water to cold air should lower, not raise, the Lake temperature. In any case, the net effect of all these devices is trivial compared to the large body of water represented by the Lake.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by icg56

Bubblers that pump cold air into the Lake to move water or circulators should expose the Lake to colder temperatures, not warm the Lake. Ice acts as an insulator against the cold of winter below the ice, so anything that exposes warmer deep water to cold air should lower, not raise, the Lake temperature. In any case, the net effect of all these devices is trivial compared to the large body of water represented by the Lake.

I think as another localized source, even if they were... we should notice a bloom always near the bubbler - which doesn't seem to be the case.

Nutrient loads are strongest near a sourcing. The blloms in various parts of the lake seem less likely to be a point source and more a dynamic of generality.

Imagine that I was able to run a dye through the bubbler; you would see that right near the bubbles surfacing the dye would be vary noticeable, but as it diffused through the larger body, it would be impossible to see.

The bubbler would need to be moving the nutrient load from the soil toward the surface.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Descant

From John Mercier: "Nutrient loading can be the result of nutrients that are trapped in the bottom soils and released during an upwelling (which is why it can happen below the ice), or any time that water is ''stirred'' by either weather or other activities."

Does this mean we're creating more problems using bubblers to protect docks? I always wondered if these circulators are raising the overall temp of the lake, and is there a long term impact.

No, bubblers have little impact.

[Lakegeezer]

Here's a photo from 360 feet above the stream that feeds from Lake Kanasatka into Blackey Cove. Looks like there are sandbags holding back the slime. The second photo shows where the green water changes to blue.

[The Real BigGuy]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

A septic system failure would result in fecal contamination that the DES would need to issue an alert on and immediate action would need to be taken.

Not necessarily. The state monitors E. coli at swimming beaches where 88 E. coli/100 ml is the max in any single sample. For recreational waters not designated a swimming area the magic number in a single sample is 406/100 ml. A result less than 406 would not attract the states attention, assuming that they were even sampling in that area, and would still point to potential infiltration from a faulty system(s) that would/could add nutrients, including phosphates, to surface water.

Anyway, my original point is that all potential sources need to be addressed. The balance of your last post seems to say this.



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[ITD]

That's a beaver dam, not sure if someone added something on top of it, but if water gets through, the slime gets through.

[camp guy]

This thread could go on forever, and never solve the problem. Everybody has their idea of a problem, but no one seems to have identified THE problem. I am not a water-issues scientist, nor any other academically-trained professional schooled in this subject, but, as someone who has lived most of his life on the shores of Winnipesaukee, I feel safe in saying that any and all solutions must be explored in hopes of finding a cure, because, if not, the consequences will be terminal to the region. Simply put, if the Lake "goes", so "goes" all the , tourist-oriented businesses, and the entire Lakes Region economy.

If mandated septic system testing is a part of the answer - DO IT, if regulations of fertilizers and other landscape procedures within a certain distance of the Lake is part of the answer - DO IT, if boating control in certain fragile shoreline areas is part of the answer - DO IT. This problem will not go away on its own, it needs to be confronted and managed.

Now, before anyone gets too upset with me, I freely admit I do not have any answers - but, I do know doing nothing is not even part of the answer.

[barefootbay]

The problem with the lake is too many people and too much money !

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy

Not necessarily. The state monitors E. coli at swimming beaches where 88 E. coli/100 ml is the max in any single sample. For recreational waters not designated a swimming area the magic number in a single sample is 406/100 ml. A result less than 406 would not attract the states attention, assuming that they were even sampling in that area, and would still point to potential infiltration from a faulty system(s) that would/could add nutrients, including phosphates, to surface water.

Anyway, my original point is that all potential sources need to be addressed. The balance of your last post seems to say this.



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A functioning system... running perfectly as designed... will still nutrient load.
That is why the old saying ''the grass is always greener over the septic system.'' The part of the system they are talking about is the leach field. It provides nutrients and water to the surrounding soil, something that turfgrass loves.

Heavy and frequent rain would upset the designed ''perc''.
Saturated soils would allow the nutrient-laden water to move sideways... though not as fast as surface run-off.

But what I was noting, when the bloom dies off and sinks to the bottom of the lake... the nutrients are sent right to the lake bed as decomposition takes place. They never get removed from the system, just concentrate over time.

This is like gathering all my leaves together and composting them. Instead of the nutrients being spread all over the property, I have concentrated them in my compost and spread them in my raised beds.