Another big parcel for sale

[codeman671]

Camp Menotomy on Meredith Neck just hit the market. 95 acres and over 4500 feet of frontage. It will be a shame to see this developed.

Hopefully it won’t end up similar to what is being proposed in West Alton up on the hill.

[granitebox]

Do you have a link for the listing? I can't seem to find easily.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by granitebox

Do you have a link for the listing? I can't seem to find easily.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3...52855288_zpid/

[fatlazyless]

95 acres, 4500' frontage on Lake Winnipesaukee way down Meredith Neck opposite Bear Island, price; twenty million dollars: Could be a nice spot for the State of New Hampshire to buy it and create a Menotomy State Park with a swimming beach and paddle boat area, camp ground for tents and walking trails.

[Grant]

It will get gobbled up, and McMansions with rolling green lawns will appear, and the folks on Bear Island will look out on another eyesore. Money always wins.

[FlyingScot]

Very sad--it brought joy to hundreds (thousands?) of kids every year

[Descant]

So, 200 new million dollar homes will give a big boost to the Meredith tax base. It will be fun to watch the spenders fight for that money while others will want to cut the tax rate.

This would be a nice parcel for the Meredith Conservation Commission to own.

[garysanfran]

Originally Posted by Descant

So, 200 new million dollar homes will give a big boost to the Meredith tax base. It will be fun to watch the spenders fight for that money while others will want to cut the tax rate.

This would be a nice parcel for the Meredith Conservation Commission to own.

I believe "million dollar" homes means only one million since no "s", making it plural. They'll be worth more than the singular million.

And along with this goes more stress on a fragile infrastructure that can't handle the current mid-summer stress.

[tummyman]

Since it is assessed for $10.4M, any sale at or near the listed value will most likely drive Meredith assessments crazy for waterfront parcels.

[granitebox]

The valuation is:

$20,000,000/4515 feet frontage = $4430/frontage foot
or
$20,000,000/95.38 acres = $209,687/acre

Both of which seem fairly reasonable given other sales in the area and probably which will drive also drive a quick sale.

From the towns perspective - I'm betting they are happy to get this parcel back on the tax rolls in any form or fashion - can anyone calculate the property tax on just the land forget improvements for now.

[sky's]

were's John Mercier he knows everything hello John were all anxiously waiting.

[John Mercier]

About $103,000 at the assessed value of $10.4

But Tummyman is right. A sale at double the assessment is going to change everything... really just a matter of timing.

[Descant]

I expect most of the land is in "current use" so upon taking parcels out of current use, the town will get a substantial bonus in "land use change tax". Of course a developer could phase that, but the spenders will be developing plans for a new senior center with indoor/outdoor pools, twice the size of the Hub in Moultonborough.

Saving some waterfront for community use, you could still build, say, 40 waterfront homes. That assesses out for $100MM, plus whatever for another 160 homes in the woods at $500K each, is another $80MM in tax base.

Does Meredith have shorefrontage vs inland development zoning restrictions similar to Gilford where you need 150' of shorefront per residence? How many feet/far back does that go?

[John Mercier]

Well, its pending... so we should see some details emerge soon enough.

[4 for Boating]

The price to me seems low and now it's listed as pending after ONE DAY?

No waiting for other offers? No seeing if what can only be described as a unique and rare parcel would fetch more? It seems to me that the buyer was already selected long ago and the price agreed upon as well. Time will tell.

[John Mercier]

Listed for about 17 hours.
The landowner was approached.

[4 for Boating]

Interesting - so what's the reason/philosophy for officially listing the property on the MLS? Could have just been a private sale, no?

[hemlock]

Originally Posted by granitebox

The valuation is:

$20,000,000/4515 feet frontage = $4430/frontage foot
or
$20,000,000/95.38 acres = $209,687/acre

Both of which seem fairly reasonable given other sales in the area and probably which will drive also drive a quick sale.

From the towns perspective - I'm betting they are happy to get this parcel back on the tax rolls in any form or fashion - can anyone calculate the property tax on just the land forget improvements for now.

In 1965 my grandfather chose island waterfront as he could afford the 35 dollars a shore frontage foot for a 1/2 acre lot. Mainland lots were 110 dollars a shore front foot for a similar sized lot. The real difference is that he was a semi retired school district janitor who was a careful saver. I dont think we will ever see that again careful saver or not.

[Skippermark]

Looks like it might already have an offer. Status on Zillow says "pending..."

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Skippermark

Looks like it might already have an offer. Status on Zillow says "pending..."

It went under agreement almost immediately, I am sure the deal was already done but it had to be listed as a formality.

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by codeman671

It went under agreement almost immediately, I am sure the deal was already done but it had to be listed as a formality.

There oughta be a law...

This frosts my cookies: I recall seeing a house I liked get listed with a sign pounded in the yard.

Within and hour of being listed I called the realtor and was informed it was sold.

Huh?

I offered to pay more than the asking price and was ignored.

Sweetheart deals...bah.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

There oughta be a law...

This frosts my cookies: I recall seeing a house I liked get listed with a sign pounded in the yard.

Within and hour of being listed I called the realtor and was informed it was sold.

Huh?

I offered to pay more than the asking price and was ignored.

Sweetheart deals...bah.

I went to an open house of a lake front home a few months ago. It was listed on MLS on a Wednesday and the open house was Saturday. When I got to the open house the agent said it was under agreement but they were taking back up offers.

[John Mercier]

It isn't just lakefront.

And double - or near double - the recent assessments seems to be the norm.

The peak birthrate was in 1959, so a lot of people are reaching the magic Medicare age when they can retire away from the big cities that they focused their careers around.

[4 for Boating]

I recall in the housing crash that we were actually looking for a little larger home. We saw an open house sign pop up out of nowhere a few blocks over from where we were and immediately went over to the event.

Long story short > the realtor pretty much told us that this was a foreclosure and the open house was just for show to prove to the bank that they were trying to get the best price/recovery $$ for the bank. aka - the home was already earmarked for someone > our guess was someone the realtor knew.

Saw it immediately go to pending and whoever got it - did so at a steal.

Certainly not what's going on here but your stories reminded me of an experience I had with some "funny business" years ago.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I went to an open house of a lake front home a few months ago. It was listed on MLS on a Wednesday and the open house was Saturday. When I got to the open house the agent said it was under agreement but they were taking back up offers.

Don't doubt that realtors with listings will do things to make sure their buyer gets the deal, ensuring that they get both side of the commission.

Sometimes that involves giving their buyer inside information about what the seller will accept or telling a buyer what the other offers are that the buyer will need to beat.

[root1]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Don't doubt that realtors with listings will do things to make sure their buyer gets the deal, ensuring that they get both side of the commission.

Sometimes that involves giving their buyer inside information about what the seller will accept or telling a buyer what the other offers are that the buyer will need to beat.

Present company excepted, additional members of that ilk may include Lawyers, Politicians, and Veterinarians.

[CrownRay]

Not unusual for it to be "gone" already.

My family sold our lake house 2 years ago. We did have an open house, and winning bidder paid 20K over the highest bid!

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Don't doubt that realtors with listings will do things to make sure their buyer gets the deal, ensuring that they get both side of the commission.

Sometimes that involves giving their buyer inside information about what the seller will accept or telling a buyer what the other offers are that the buyer will need to beat.

Since the seller is actually paying the realtor(s), propagating a lower price would result in theft by fraud...

As for letting buyers know what price they would need to beat... not really an issue as the current owner wants the higher price. Which is also in the interest of the realtor(s) being paid by the seller on both sides.

[steve-on-mark]

That's a lot of land for only 7 homes!

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[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by steve-on-mark

That's a lot of land for only 7 homes!

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Exactly my thoughts. That puts the per unit land costs pretty high, before the development and site work starts!

https://bnnbreaking.com/world/us/new...terfront-homes

The Registered Agent on file for this company is Jeremy R Martin and is located at 21 Aviation Drive, Gilford, NH 03249. The company's principal address is Po Box 5457, Laconia, NH 03247

[Mr. V]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if instead of using a large tract to site McMansions, a developer envisioned and opened it up for "the little guy" like was done when Lake Shore Park was created?

Too bad "the little guy" is priced out of Winnipesaukee.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Exactly my thoughts. That puts the per unit land costs pretty high, before the development and site work starts!

https://bnnbreaking.com/world/us/new...terfront-homes

The Registered Agent on file for this company is Jeremy R Martin and is located at 21 Aviation Drive, Gilford, NH 03249. The company's principal address is Po Box 5457, Laconia, NH 03247

He is also tied into the controversial project being proposed in Alton off Cherry Valley Rd. The owners of the land are founders of Toast.

It went quick, must be a cash deal. I don’t k ow this Martin guy, but wonder if the Grimm clan is somehow involved as well. They live not far from there on Veazy Shore.

[John Mercier]

Lakes Region Design is a client.
And the situation is touchy, not only based on the Alton project, but other notable land deals that are happening in the area.

The lake and Gunstock are becoming predominate factors. Buyers are looking for four season recreational opportunities nearby... with quiet being a first order request.

[tis]

Originally Posted by steve-on-mark

That's a lot of land for only 7 homes!

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We thought that too. With development, site work etc. what do they think they will sell those houses for? Almost 10 million each? Yikes. Although one sold recently in Wolfeboro for around 12 million.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by tis

We thought that too. With development, site work etc. what do they think they will sell those houses for? Almost 10 million each? Yikes. Although one sold recently in Wolfeboro for around 12 million.

I’d rather see 7 big ones than 20 small ones, at least as far as overall appearance of the shoreline. They should be well spaced, not crammed on top of each other.

[Descant]

"Whispering Pines" is a 275 lot trailer park in Derry NH. Who was the marketing genius who came up with that name for elite homes on Lake Winnipesaukee? They should have bought the name "Menotomy" too if they want to pay homage to history.

I hope the developers will consult with NHLAKES and participate in the "Lake Smart" program for shorefront and water quality protection.

Gotta go...I hear my helicopter coming.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by tis

We thought that too. With development, site work etc. what do they think they will sell those houses for? Almost 10 million each? Yikes. Although one sold recently in Wolfeboro for around 12 million.

Maybe one of the rich entertainers that play in Gilford will like the area so much they will make it their home.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Maybe one of the rich entertainers that play in Gilford will like the area so much they will make it their home.

Maybe. I guess there is enough money around the lake.

[upthesaukee]

BUSINESS
Former Girl Scout camp on Lake Winnipesaukee's Meredith Neck sells for $18 million
By John Koziol Union Leader Correspondent Feb 16, 2024 Updated 6 hrs ago


The entrance to Camp Menotomy at 386 Meredith Neck Road, shown on Thursday. The former Girl Scout camp was listed for sale at $20 million on Feb. 9 and sold the next day for $18 million.

John Koziol/Union Leader Correspondent
MEREDITH — The former 95-acre Camp Menotomy Girl Scout Camp on Meredith Neck has been sold for $18 million to a developer who plans to build seven waterfront homes on the site.

Most recently owned by the Camp Menotomy Trust, in care of the Boston-based Girl Scouts of Eastern Massachusetts, the property at 386 Meredith Neck Road went on the market on Feb. 9 for $20 million, according to Realtor.com, and was removed on Feb. 11.

The listing agent was Susan Bradley.

The property was purchased by Menotomy Development LLC for $18 million. The developer is Jeremy R. Martin, president of Lakes Region Design Group in Laconia.

The project, to be called The Preserve at Whispering Pines, is in the early stages of planning, and no formal submissions have been made to the town of Meredith, according to a project spokesperson.

Plans call for construction of seven private, single-family custom-built homes along approximately 5,000 feet of waterfront, Scott Tranchemontagne of the Montagne Powers public relations firm said in an email to the Union Leader.

He noted that current regulations would have permitted “approximately 25 home lots” on the site.

He said the homes will be set back from the shoreline by at least 125 feet and will be connected to Meredith Neck Road by a new private roadway built to town specifications.

“Approximately 30 percent of the property” will be preserved, with new walking trails featuring markers detailing the history of the Girl Scout camp, and an existing loon sanctuary on the southern cove will be protected, he said.

On its website, the Meredith Historical Society says that Camp Menotomy “was formerly Camp Wauganakit for boys until 1935” and was purchased in 1939 by Arlington Girl Scouts Inc.

From 1963 to 1980, the camp was operated by the Mistick Side Girl Scout Council, and then by the Patriots’ Trail Girl Scout Council.

The Historical Society said “Menotomy” is the old Native American name for the area now known as Arlington. It translates to “place of swift running water.”

For the 2023 tax year, the town assessed the former camp’s value at $10.41 million. The property contains an office building 36 tent platforms; five cabins; an infirmary; a shower house; two bath houses; five open sheds with sinks; several outbuildings; and a dock.

According to town records, some of the improvements were made as recently as 2006.

The camp’s fate has been a topic of online discussion on the Winnipesaukee forum since Feb. 10.

Several people on the forum expressed the hope that the property would be developed sensibly. Others pointed out that the consequence of such a significant sale “will most likely drive Meredith assessments crazy for waterfront parcels.”

One person wrote that the Town will be happy “to get this parcel back on the tax rolls in any form or fashion….”

The sale of Camp Menotomy is one of the largest property transfers in Meredith in recent memory, along the lines of Rusty McLear’s sale of Hampshire Hospitality Holdings to TPG Hotels & Resorts, of Rhode Island, in April 2019.

Although McLear didn’t disclose the sales price for the Church Landing, Inn at Mill Falls, Bay Point at Mill Falls, Chase House and Mill Falls Marketplace, he told the Laconia Daily Sun that it was “well north” of the town’s $25 million cumulative assessment of those properties.

[email protected]

Dave

[thinkxingu]

And, just like that, a mile of Winni waterfront is lost to the many and gained by seven.

*sigh*

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[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

And, just like that, a mile of Winni waterfront is lost to the many and gained by seven.

*sigh*

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Sounds like the argument being made by the overnight mooring group...

Interesting thing will be to see how it affects other property values.
Will some of the smaller lots around the lake be bought up for tear down to create larger lakefront estates?

[Susie Cougar]

I appreciate the fact that this seems to be a very well planned development. The size of the lots are perfect for privacy.

Does anyone think that there could be a commercial aspect to the property? There is going to be a very nice walking trail through the old property with signs explaining different aspects of the camp. Although anyone buying one of these houses would enjoy the open space behind them, it seems to me like this would be for different guests each week or two.

[John Mercier]

To my knowledge... nothing of that nature has been provided either publicly or privately.

About a third will be conservation, that my understanding is will be open to certain types of public access.

Other than that... the only public statement was seven waterfront homes.

[4 for Boating]

Most everyone would rather not see more homes on the lake at this point but I agree that 7 homes for such a parcel may be the best possible outcome one could hope for. Of course the devil is in the details but it sounds like they are taking a measured approach respecting the area/original use... Will be interesting to see the plans for the homes themselves and a timeline.

[John Mercier]

It is possible that both projects would proceed at the same time.
But Alton is further along in the permitting.

[fatlazyless]

So, maybe the new 18-million dollar owner of Camp Menotomy will want to donate the 25% of the 95-acres, all along the Meredith Neck Rd, that appears to be a swampy wet lands to the town conservation as a public service plus avoiding annual property tax on it?

Is that correct? ........

[garysanfran]

My neighbor sent me the following...

See attached deed granting Menotomy to the Arlington Girl Scouts. It says the trustees cannot sell it unless they go out of business (which they haven’t). If they did go out of business, then the next step was to try to find an entity of “like goals and ideals” to take it over (which they didn’t). Such an entity would likely have to be another girls camp (or maybe a boys camp could qualify). They would presumably be entitled to take it over for the same $1/yr rent that AGS was paying the trustees. Exhausting that search was the only way they were allowed to sell it. Problem is that only someone with standing could intervene to stop the sale, and that would only be the heirs of the grantors or any entity with those “like goals and ideals” who could contend that they were denied their right to take it over. My guess is that they paid the heirs (if there are any left) to quiet them, and they are hoping that none of the other area camps raise a stink

[fatlazyless]

On January 24, 2024, "After 23 years of dedicated service, the Chief Executive Officer of Girl Scouts of Eastern Massachusetts has announced her retirement, effective June 2024."

http://www.gsema.org/en/news/gsema-c...etirement.html

Gotta wonder if this has anything to do with this 18-million dollar sale of Camp Menotomy. You know what they say ...... follow the money ......?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

My neighbor sent me the following...

See attached deed granting Menotomy to the Arlington Girl Scouts. It says the trustees cannot sell it unless they go out of business (which they haven’t). If they did go out of business, then the next step was to try to find an entity of “like goals and ideals” to take it over (which they didn’t). Such an entity would likely have to be another girls camp (or maybe a boys camp could qualify). They would presumably be entitled to take it over for the same $1/yr rent that AGS was paying the trustees. Exhausting that search was the only way they were allowed to sell it. Problem is that only someone with standing could intervene to stop the sale, and that would only be the heirs of the grantors or any entity with those “like goals and ideals” who could contend that they were denied their right to take it over. My guess is that they paid the heirs (if there are any left) to quiet them, and they are hoping that none of the other area camps raise a stink

This is very interesting. I heard through the grapevine that they did try, but I do not know if they tried very hard or what the legal standard of try would be in this case. It's hard to understand how the summer camp business could be so tough that no one could do it with free land. OTOH, I guess camps have always had "free" land

[codeman671]

Why did the camp shudder operations originally? All of the existing camps that I know of are full every season, and unless you start looking into booking in the fall for the following summer you usually cannot get in.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Why did the camp shudder operations originally? All of the existing camps that I know of are full every season, and unless you start looking into booking in the fall for the following summer you usually cannot get in.

I would imagine with that much property, the cost to keep it up and run seasonally just wouldn't make sense, esp with help in such short supply now.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Biggd

I would imagine with that much property, the cost to keep it up and run seasonally just wouldn't make sense, esp with help in such short supply now.

I don't know, but Camp Lawrence and Nokomis seem to be doing great, and they have the extra complication of boating to get there. Granted these are YMCA, not Girl Scouts of America.

Camp Cody, Bernadette and Fatima are always booked up. Menotomy has been closed for years.

On a side note, according to Wikipedia, Camp Fatima, a catholic boys camp was founded by Richard Boner in 1949. Comical if actually true! I'd say someone is messing around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_F...(New_Hampshire)

[steve-on-mark]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I don't know, but Camp Lawrence and Nokomis seem to be doing great, and they have the extra complication of boating to get there. Granted these are YMCA, not Girl Scouts of America.

Camp Cody, Bernadette and Fatima are always booked up. Menotomy has been closed for years.

On a side note, according to Wikipedia, Camp Fatima, a catholic boys camp was founded by Richard Boner in 1949. Comical if actually true! I'd say someone is messing around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_F...(New_Hampshire)

You know I could run with this, but even though my wife tells me to go " there " on a daily basis, my Catholic school upbringing taught me that Hell isn't really a cool place to be , so I'll refrain from any comments. Remember to remind me to tell you a story next time we're hanging out though!

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[fatlazyless]

Probably, naming this 95-acre, Lake Winnipesaukee summer Girl Scout camp with its name, Camp Menotomy, back on July 2 1935 was maybe not the best choice for a name.

Its name, Camp Menotomy, sounds way too much like Camp Monotony, don't you think?

Running a successful eight week summer camp, now just seven weeks, is a very tough task and needs a very strong director/owner who is all fired up, all year 'round, to make it a happening and happy camp.

If the camp had a better name, something like Camp Marvelous coupled with a strong director/owner who lived and breathed the operation of the camp, all year around, it would still be a going camp, today!

[fatlazyless]

From Camp Menotomy, way back in the time machine, going back to 1939, 1944, 1956 ...... https://www.lwhs.us/menotomy.htm .....when it looked like a happening summer camp.

I took a walk through the camp sometime about October 2012, before it got all posted 'no trespassing' as was a local practice back then and there were NO camper cabins, anywhere, and these non-existent cabins had no bunks and no bathrooms as they got replaced with tent platforms, or something(?).

Apparently, about 15-20 elevated tent platforms were there which had replaced the old cabins and there was nothing there in the way of electricity, plumbing, or indoor bathrooms ...... just tent platforms in groups of five in four different shoreline, forested locations.

No tennis courts, no indoor gym, no outdoor basketball court, no barn with horses, no coral, no pasture, no riding ring, no manicured and clipped green grass fields, no owners mansion cabin, no infirmary, no main lodge, no senior lodge, no junior lodge, no counselors shack, no cooks cabin, no library, no rainy day gymnastics cabin.

There was one grass all-purpose athletic field.

The one and only building which is there now is probably a dining room and kitchen with small living quarters, and two bathrooms as is shown in the Zillow listing.

The waterfront had a permanent dock which is still in place in the lake but there were no small boats like row boats, Sunfish or canoes, no water ski boat. No waterfront small buildings like for paddle and pfd storage or waterfront staff support.

It was mostly an untouched big pine trees and rocky shoreline Lake Winnipesaukee location that was very short on facilities and on campers, too, at least in 2012. Believe the last eight week Girl Scout full summer session was held in the year, 2000, 24-summers ago.

Maybe someone who attended the Camp Whispering Pines one week or two week sessions held there in the last twenty years in July and August can make a reply here.

[thinkxingu]

This is such a lose-lose situation, as if it's sold to a developer for 10 luxury properties, there will/should be a lower impact to the lake as a whole, but then a huge parcel of land is lost by many to the few.

On the other hand, if it's developed in a way to give "average" people access, the number of homes necessary to make that financially feasible would most likely have a huge impact on the area and lake.

The best way forward, it seems, is for profit to come second and the original deed's intentions to come first.

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[Biggd]

We could see a change in the real estate market in 2025 that may make a lot of these big projects' financial disasters. I'm already seeing a stagnating market, but the real test will be this spring.
I talked to a marina owner on Cape Cod the other day, he said there's a big backlog of new boats and a lot of used boats and slips coming to market. New cars sales have also slowed to a crawl. Those are signs that the good times may be coming to an end.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Biggd

We could see a change in the real estate market in 2025 that may make a lot of these big projects' financial disasters. I'm already seeing a stagnating market, but the real test will be this spring.
I talked to a marina owner on Cape Cod the other day, he said there's a big backlog of new boats and a lot of used boats and slips coming to market. New cars sales have also slowed to a crawl. Those are signs that the good times may be coming to an end.

https://www.marklines.com/en/statist...n-usa-by-month

[bigdog]

I suspect most of these McMansions to be built, will be people who are not 'year-round' folks, just a place to visit with the kids and grand-kids during the summer months. Their other home being in Florida (Naples, Jupiter, Palm Beach) and the likes, the rest of the year.

If this is the case these new property owners will not add to the school system with their kids being seasonal, that would be a plus. Also, the taxes these new folks will help the tax base for the town, the down-side, it may affect property values upwards, which would be a bad thing for others with waterfront properties in town.

[4 for Boating]

When I read the brief terms of the trust in the article - it seems to me that Camp Quinebarge may have a platform to "rent" the property and thus block the sale but I don't understand the aspect of them looking to buy it. The trust only allows that escape sale when the Girl Scouts can't use it and/or they can't rent it to another camp with proceeds going to said Girl Scouts. Why would the trustees sell the camp for 1.5M to Quinebarge? And once sold with the trust ended could not that camp turn around and do whatever they wanted? If Quinebarge really wanted to use it as a camp - offer/sign a 10 or 15 year lease for such use and get the marshmallows and sticks out.

[BroadHopper]

Camp Samoset had a similar deed restriction: land to be used for recreation for Jewish boys or something to that effect. It takes a crackerjack lawyer to break the restriction and sell the land to a scrupulous out-of-state developer.

I learned that countless land deals were brokered in NH using various tactics to circumvent restrictions. When a parcel is donated to a conservatory trust, it's much harder to break. LRCT and Belknap Conservatory Trust are two great trusts.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by 4 for Boating

When I read the brief terms of the trust in the article - it seems to me that Camp Quinebarge may have a platform to "rent" the property and thus block the sale but I don't understand the aspect of them looking to buy it. The trust only allows that escape sale when the Girl Scouts can't use it and/or they can't rent it to another camp with proceeds going to said Girl Scouts. Why would the trustees sell the camp for 1.5M to Quinebarge? And once sold with the trust ended could not that camp turn around and do whatever they wanted? If Quinebarge really wanted to use it as a camp - offer/sign a 10 or 15 year lease for such use and get the marshmallows and sticks out.

Which is why the article stated that a response to the lease offer wasn't return (at least at the time of publishing).

[4 for Boating]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Which is why the article stated that a response to the lease offer wasn't return (at least at the time of publishing).

Yup <> Agreed - just didn't understand why they would try to offer to buy it for $1.5M in the first place. Sort of strange/odd given the circumstances.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by bigdog

I suspect most of these McMansions to be built, will be people who are not 'year-round' folks, just a place to visit with the kids and grand-kids during the summer months. Their other home being in Florida (Naples, Jupiter, Palm Beach) and the likes, the rest of the year.

If this is the case these new property owners will not add to the school system with their kids being seasonal, that would be a plus. Also, the taxes these new folks will help the tax base for the town, the down-side, it may affect property values upwards, which would be a bad thing for others with waterfront properties in town.

Yes, but a wonderful piece of property would be lost to the many for the sake of the (very, very, very, very) few.

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[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Yes, but a wonderful piece of property would be lost to the many for the sake of the (very, very, very, very) few.

"The many?"

It was privately owned before and will remain so; if you really want to acquire property"for the "many," lobby your local politicians to develop more parks.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Yes, but a wonderful piece of property would be lost to the many for the sake of the (very, very, very, very) few.

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Is the public allowed to access it now? It looks gated.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Is the public allowed to access it now? It looks gated.

I was referring to the (tens/hundreds of) thousands of campers and leaders that would no longer have the opportunity to experience summer camp vs. the few families that would own the homes.

Once a camp like that is gone, it's GONE.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

I was referring to the (tens/hundreds of) thousands of campers and leaders that would no longer have the opportunity to experience summer camp vs. the few families that would own the homes.

Once a camp like that is gone, it's GONE.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

True.
But it seems that no one wants to lease it, and the Arlington Girl Scouts don't see a future with them opening it back up.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

True.
But it seems that no one wants to lease it, and the Arlington Girl Scouts don't see a future with them opening it back up.

You seem to be injecting a charitable trust with economic goals.

Lease? Maybe I missed something, but generating income did not appear to be a goal of the grantor.

A future? Are you asserting that there are not plenty of kids who could have a wonderful time here?

Sadly, the Girl Scouts are treating their camp as a business. That kind of thinking is great in all sorts of situations, but does not apply to the trust

[John Mercier]

From the LDS article... " The deed, recorded in 1962, permits the sale of the property if the Arlington, Massachusetts, Girl Scouts, or their successor, or no other organization wishes to “hire the camp grounds for camping purposes, and if no other organization can be found to utilize the site for camping purposes...”

The deed also states that, in the event of a sale, the trustees “shall invest the proceeds of such sale” into investments, and use the proceeds from those investments for “camperships or scholarships for girls of Arlington” who are members of the local Girl Scouts organization. "

Hire - Lease

The lawyers seem to be playing around that phrasing of the deed.

[fatlazyless]

Driving past the Camp Menotomy, Meredith Neck Rd 95.38-acres, with one mile of Lake Winnipesaukee, mostly natural untouched waterfront with huge evergreen trees and glacial boulders, nothing has been happening there in terms of any construction, tree removal, or anything else what-so-ever to do with mega-million dollar, seven individual luxury homes building. Everything seen from the road, every large beautiful tree, wetlands, rocks, roots, soil, and land remains totally unchanged. To my surprise it is untouched since it was sold on February 9, 2024, 20-months ago for eighteen million dollars. The locked gate and old sign 'Camp Menotomy' are still there, the gate is closed and locked. No construction is happening there, and this February 9, 2024, $18-mil closing price is 20-months past transacted?

From .... www.mernia.org/camp-menotomy-docs ..... '2025 - Meredith Neck and Islands Alliance' with items dated throughout 2024 and 2024 and as recently as July 31, 2025 maybe someone familiar with all this could comment on the if & when the proposed seven different mega-million dollar waterfront homes ..... www.mernia.org/current-newsletters ..... will start to be constructed?

Like, 'zactly what the heck is happening here in simple English.... ?

Here's a 1956 Camp Menotomy ...... www.ebay.com/itm/405912096765 ..... two-cent postcard, mailed from Meredith to Arlington Mass in July.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Driving past the Camp Menotomy, Meredith Neck Rd. 95.38-acres, with one mile of Lake Winnipesaukee natural, almost untouched waterfront, nothing has been happening there in terms of any construction, tree removal, or anything else what-so-ever to do with mega-million dollar, seven individual luxury homes building. Everything seen from the road, every large beautiful tree, wetlands, rocks, roots, soil, and land remains totally unchanged. To my surprise it is untouched since it was sold on February 9, 2024, 20-months ago for eighteen million dollars. The locked gate and old camp sign 'Camp Menotomy' are still there, the gate is closed and locked. No construction is happening there and this February 9, 2024, $18-mil closing price is 20-months past transacted?

From .... www.mernia.org/camp-menotomy-docs ..... '2025 - Meredith Neck and Islands Alliance' with items dated throughout 2024 and 2024 and as recently as July 31, 2025 maybe someone familiar with all this could comment on the if & when the proposed seven different mega-million dollar waterfront homes ..... www.mernia.org/current-newsletters ..... will start to be constructed?

Like, 'zactly what the heck is happening here in simple English.... ?

Here's a 1956 Camp Menotomy ...... www.ebay.com/itm/405912096765 ..... two-cent postcard, mailed from Meredith to Arlington Mass in July.

Here’s a bit of information that may shed some light on your questions:

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/dde...=1755484368369

https://mernia.org/camp-menotomy

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Driving past the Camp Menotomy, Meredith Neck Rd. 95.38-acres, with one mile of Lake Winnipesaukee natural, almost untouched waterfront, nothing has been happening there in terms of any construction, tree removal, or anything else what-so-ever to do with mega-million dollar, seven individual luxury homes building. Everything seen from the road, every large beautiful tree, wetlands, rocks, roots, soil, and land remains totally unchanged. To my surprise it is untouched since it was sold on February 9, 2024, 20-months ago for eighteen million dollars. The locked gate and old camp sign 'Camp Menotomy' are still there, the gate is closed and locked. No construction is happening there and this February 9, 2024, $18-mil closing price is 20-months past transacted?

From .... www.mernia.org/camp-menotomy-docs ..... '2025 - Meredith Neck and Islands Alliance' with items dated throughout 2024 and 2024 and as recently as July 31, 2025 maybe someone familiar with all this could comment on the if & when the proposed seven different mega-million dollar waterfront homes ..... www.mernia.org/current-newsletters ..... will start to be constructed?

Like, 'zactly what the heck is happening here in simple English.... ?

Here's a 1956 Camp Menotomy ...... www.ebay.com/itm/405912096765 ..... two-cent postcard, mailed from Meredith to Arlington Mass in July.

In simple English, the sale has not closed, to the best of my understanding. That's why you haven't seen any changes to the large beautiful trees, wetlands, rocks, roots, soil, and land. Supposedly the AG's offices in both Massachusetts and New Hampshire are reviewing the proposed sale and terms of the trust, to be sure that the trustees are complying with the terms. According to the MerNIA documents you mention, a person has come forward and made an offer to the trustees to lease the property for the purpose of running a camp, as was contemplated by the grantor(s) when the trust was created. Reading through the Menotomy documents readily available on the MerNIA website would have told you all of this.

[fatlazyless]

Ok, so if this property were a single family home and not 95.38-acres with one mile waterfront it could have a typical real estate sign with the real estate office and above that a PENDING sign. These familiar signs typically change from FOR SALE to PENDING to SOLD.

So, this $18-million sale of land is currently in the PENDING stage. I get it and this actually makes some logical and believable sense to me. It seems very possible that a small percentage of the agreed price would be put down as a deposit as the case goes through charitable trust scrutiny in both Massachusetts and New Hampshire.

So, the closing has been PENDING since February 9, 2024 and the actual amount of the down payment, if any, is not publicly known while the full price is $18-mil, publicly agreed between seller and buyer.

It will be interesting to see what happens? I suppose that only time will tell? Who knows how this will either go through or fall through? What will happen with the 95.38-acres on Lake Winnipesaukee? .......

[fatlazyless]

The Camp Menotomy, 95-acre, Lake Winnipesaukee waterfront property was first listed on Jan 10, 2024 for $20-mil and sold on the same day for $18-mil, if I remember correct.

Camp Menotomy, Nov 5, 2025 ...... www.mernia.org/camp-menotomy-docs ...... 15-page MerNIA Counsel response to Massachusetts Charitable Trusts Unit

Hey, if Camp Menotomy actually gets resurrected as a new and different summer camp I have an old 17' Grumman aluminum canoe with two very nice wood paddles that I will be pleased to donate. Grumman aluminum canoes are very sturdy, paddle in a straight line because it has a 3/4" keel, and are built-to-last, basically forever! The aluminum Grumman material is very happy in the slightly acidic Lake Winnipesaukee waters ...... ...... paddle-paddle-paddle!

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by codeman671

It will be a shame to see this developed.

Agreed. We don't want no stinkin' fancy green lawn new homes built the DAY AFTER my fancy green lawn new house was built.

[FlyingScot]

Girl Scouts is great in general, but these lawyers deserve a merit badge in BS. The whole reason the trust was created was to protect camp uses from being usurped by money. So the money pressure arriving is now the reason the court should allow them to break the trust?

Also completely bogus that the GS cannot operate a camp with free land. They may need to rethink structure/schedule/participants, but they are the Girl Scouts! Surely they can figure out a way to use the land to benefit a whole bunch of children

[Mr. V]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Girl Scouts is great in general, but these lawyers deserve a merit badge in BS. The whole reason the trust was created was to protect camp uses from being usurped by money. So the money pressure arriving is now the reason the court should allow them to break the trust?

Gotta wonder if the terms of the trust will be stricken as being in violation of the rule against perpetuities?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

Gotta wonder if the terms of the trust will be stricken as being in violation of the rule against perpetuities?

Hmmm...not a lawyer, but it would seem to be an unforced error if that was the case. It is not difficult to protect a piece of land forever. People and organizations due this with the Lakes Region Conservation Trust and other groups as a matter of course, including protecting specified uses

[8gv]

My take on this:

The trust was put in place to allow the scouts to have an opportunity to go to summer camp.

That promise was fulfilled.

At some point the demand for that activity ceased to exist.

Changing the use of the property does not cause harm to the scouts because for them, that activity is not coming back.

I say change the property's use and deliver its current value to the trustees so that the scouts can benefit in more modern ways.

[Descant]

Sounds like the Menotomy trustees have lost sight of the intent of the trust as I understand it: Site/land preservation and good experiences for Girl Scouts. In our town the Trustees of Trust Funds (elected by the town) manage forest land that was a bequest in 1965. Proceeds from periodic harvests go into a trust fund and the income of that fund is available for schools. Open to the public for hiking, etc. No reason something like that couldn't be set up for Menotomy, with derived income going to Girl Scouts and allowing them to do "wilderness camping" which requires no structures. Undeveloped land adds to the total desirability of a community which improves value without raising costs. Perhaps Meredith should petition the court for such a plan? Hillsborough and Rockingham counties unexpectedly became over developed. Now they're desperate for open land. The Lakes Region is close to that mistake. On another site, we also purchased a summer camp and the Parks Dept. runs a day camp and other year round programs. Setting aside a large portion of the land as conservation land enabled grant funding such as LWCF and LC HIP, as I recall.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

Sounds like the Menotomy trustees have lost sight of the intent of the trust as I understand it: Site/land preservation and good experiences for Girl Scouts. In our town the Trustees of Trust Funds (elected by the town) manage forest land that was a bequest in 1965. Proceeds from periodic harvests go into a trust fund and the income of that fund is available for schools. Open to the public for hiking, etc. No reason something like that couldn't be set up for Menotomy, with derived income going to Girl Scouts and allowing them to do "wilderness camping" which requires no structures. Undeveloped land adds to the total desirability of a community which improves value without raising costs. Perhaps Meredith should petition the court for such a plan? Hillsborough and Rockingham counties unexpectedly became over developed. Now they're desperate for open land. The Lakes Region is close to that mistake. On another site, we also purchased a summer camp and the Parks Dept. runs a day camp and other year round programs. Setting aside a large portion of the land as conservation land enabled grant funding such as LWCF and LC HIP, as I recall.

Then the town should make an offer greater than the one currently on the table.

[tis]

Originally Posted by TheProfessor

Agreed. We don't want no stinkin' fancy green lawn new homes built the DAY AFTER my fancy green lawn new house was built.

You're right, it' true.

[TiltonBB]

It appears that the reason the property was sold is because it was not financially feasible to operate it as a summer camp. There are many other summer camps on the lake and maybe the law of supply and demand contributed to the downfall.

One upside that has not been mentioned is that if this property is developed as planned that town will realize a significant increase in taxable value and therefore tax revenue when it is completed. And, not to generalize, but when people purchase the higher cost homes often they are beyond their child raising years so the occupants of these properties will likely contribute substantially to the town's finances while being a minimal burden on town services.

[TomC]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

One upside that has not been mentioned is that if this property is developed as planned that town will realize a significant increase in taxable value and therefore tax revenue when it is completed. And, not to generalize, but when people purchase the higher cost homes often they are beyond their child raising years so the occupants of these properties will likely contribute substantially to the town's finances while being a minimal burden on town services.

What do you think will happen? That revenue goes to sustaining the current town budget and thus reduces the tax burden on everyone else - or the budget balloons as new ways to spend the windfall are found?

[Weekend Pundit]

The last thing needed is more high-end housing, regardless of what town we're talking about. What we really need is workforce housing (not to be confused with subsidized housing).

When a typical house for a family of four is running ~$500,000, that locks a lot of people out of housing. How many employers can't hire anyone because there isn't any affordable housing for their prospective employees? Pretty much anyone making less than $100K will not be able to afford to buy a house and anyone making less then $70K won't be able to afford rent.

[WinnisquamZ]

Originally Posted by Weekend Pundit

The last thing needed is more high-end housing, regardless of what town we're talking about. What we really need is workforce housing (not to be confused with subsidized housing).

When a typical house for a family of four is running ~$500,000, that locks a lot of people out of housing. How many employers can't hire anyone because there isn't any affordable housing for their prospective employees? Pretty much anyone making less than $100K will not be able to afford to buy a house and anyone making less then $70K won't be able to afford rent.

Why must current tax payers supply “workforce housing”? If a business decides to open or operate in this area knowing unemployment is at zero isn’t that on them? It’s not the taxpayers responsibility to support one’s business plan.

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by WinnisquamZ

Why must current tax payers supply “workforce housing”? If a business decides to open or operate in this area knowing unemployment is at zero isn’t that on them? It’s not the taxpayers responsibility to support one’s business plan.

Who said anything about the taxpayers doing any of this? Mostly it's a matter of making it less difficult for such housing to be built. I have seen far too much of the NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) and BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone) attitude delay or destroy worthy developments.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Weekend Pundit

Who said anything about the taxpayers doing any of this? Mostly it's a matter of making it less difficult for such housing to be built. I have seen far too much of the NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) and BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone) attitude delay or destroy worthy developments.

That isn't likely to be the case on this parcel.
We all understand that lakefront development would be higher value housing that what we would typically be expecting for starter homes.

NH HB 1361 (?) I believe would be what a developer would use to increase workforce housing should they wish to go that route.

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That isn't likely to be the case on this parcel.
We all understand that lakefront development would be higher value housing that what we would typically be expecting for starter homes.

NH HB 1361 (?) I believe would be what a developer would use to increase workforce housing should they wish to go that route.

My comment was aimed at towns in general, not specifically Meredith. Yeah, it was off-topic. My bad.

Goodness knows workforce housing is needed across the state. That's certainly true of Gilford.

[John Mercier]

That can fix it for all of the towns/cities.
Just a matter of it being invoked, and the municipality realizing what the cost of a lost court case would be.

[fatlazyless]

95-acres of land, 4500 feet of Lake Winnipesaukee waterfront, one third or 30-acres of the 95-acres land is a beautiful wetlands area with tall pine trees, close to the Meredith Neck Rd that gets flooded from time to time.

Two photos ..... https://gis.vgsi.com/MeredithNH/Parcel.aspx?pid=1765 ..... of the camp buildings, built in 1830 and 1965. These two buildings are the only existing buildings on the 95.38 acre property. There's a large waterfront dock, suitable for a camp waterfront which is set in the lake water, in the lake.

A drawing that shows the proposed seven lots and a large non-buildable area ...... http://www.stevecapykw.com/former-gi...or-18-million/.

Maybe this non-buildable wetlands area will receive 'current use' low tax status and be protected from future development. This very attractive wetlands area is what's seen from the road while driving.

Where is this Camp Menotomy 95-acre property? ...... http://www.mapquest.com/us/new=Hamps...tomy-450115226

Individual summer camp for young people in New Hampshire, Maine and Vermont have typically been in existence for 80 to 110-years, created before World War II, and now cost about $14,500 for a camper to attend a seven week session from June 25 to August 10.

Each new house will probably have to pay the Town of Meredith maybe $35,000/year in property tax, plus they spend on building materials, construction labor, maintenance, local business', local services, restaurants, boats and cars. So, these seven new waterfront home owners will help support the local economy, big time ..... and long time.

The last year that Camp Menotomy Girl Scout Camp actually had a full eight week or seven week session was probably in the year 1999 or 2000.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/ny...cout-camp.html ..... Nov 26, 2006: Southampton NY buys a 65-acre Camp Tekakwitha on great Peconic Bay for $16.5 million.

The chance that the Town of Meredith or the State of N.H.would buy Camp Menotomy are probably close to ZERO.