What's up with Lakes Region Merchants?

[sea_n_ski]

Every summer I shake my head and many of the merchants up here. I really do my best to shop up here for benefit of our local merchants. If we don't support them they will vanish. But sometimes you have to wonder if they are their own worst enemy.

But for the life of me why to many of them close early? Went to DeSilva's to get some Jet Ski oil on Saturday and they were closed at 3 PM. They stay open until 5 PM during the week, but on Saturday which should be their busiest day, they cut out at 3. Tried to buy some meat at the Wine'ing Butcher Friday night and they were closed. Just as well their meat is tough as nails this year. Gave me a chance to go to Jo Jos the next day. Blizzards closed their Ice Cream window with 10 people in line wanted to get a cone. Channel Marine is the exception staying open until 8 on Fridays.

These stores should stay open late during the summer. I would imagine most of their business comes during these 10 weeks of summer. They should do anything they can to get all the business they can. Hey go home early in February.

[Lakegeezer]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with sea-n-ski. The savvy of some businesses regarding their hours is shooting them in the foot. Once you have tried to go to a business and found it closed during normal business hours, you think twice about going again. Something as simple as posting the hours on a sign outside would be more than enough, yet is too often missing. Some of the trades people in the area also have a "whatever" attitude about their customers. It is as if they are doing you a favor by showing up. By no means is this all businesses. Those who are successful are those that try harder and lucky for them, it often does not take that much extra effort.

[Yosemite Sam]

Most of the merchants that you are talking about are just hobbies for someone. They need something to do so they start a store and treat it like a hobby. They don't need the money, just something to do and chat with people.

[VtSteve]

in many places. I often commented on furniture stores, many are notoriously open from 10:00 am until 5:00 pm, just in time to make sure nobody can get there after work. Same holds true for many that have "summer hours", open 10:00 am until 1:00 pm, closed Sundays.

Th hallmark of many local businesses is that their hours are fairly pedestrian, owners of stores like quick stops and local delis and the like immediately go out and buy fancy pickup trucks, nice houses and/or boats, then wonder what's going on when business slows. This has accelerated the growth of big box stores like Wal Mart, Home Depot, and large furniture chains. Try to find what you need for a project at 6:00 PM on a Saturday. Chances are, your local lumber supply closed at 3 or so, if they remained open at all.

There are some that get it, and they remain committed and open. We have a True Value store locally that has great hours, makes sure they are competitive on all sorts of boating and fishing supplies, and try to make it a far easier decision to shop there other than drive to West Marine or anywhere else. They do succeed, and have actually thrived.

We have a large bowling center that is open early and stays open very late, seven days a week. They are open all holidays, Christmas and New Years. Since they adopted this policy, three other lanes are closed down. I don't support any business that is inconvenient, high-priced, and rarely open when I need them, local or not. Like everything else in life, if they expect fat margins and the easy life, they'll have to put in their time and earn it like everyone else.

[cillovely]

My husband owns his own auto repair garage and he stays open until 7:00 weeknights, just so customers don't have to worry about rushing to get there by 5:00 like so many other places. He stopped working Saturday mornings a while back, just wasn't worth it, but works enough during the week to make up for it.

I don't always like it, wish he was home early enough to have dinner with the family but you have to think of customers when you own your own place.

I miss the little mom and pop places that Home Depot and Lowes have put out of business. NHD was the best.

[This'nThat]

I agree -- summer hours at a lake resort should be extended. Kinda like retail stores extending their hours during the Christmas season.

On the other hand, this might be an opportunity for a small business to set up shop and offer competitive prices and extended hours.

As for Home Depot and Lowes -- notice that their hours are really, really great? Their prices, too. Small, local Hardware Stores can/should compete with those hours and prices if they want to stay in business. The shopping public, by large, isn't going to frequent non-competitive mom and pop stores. Why waste money, when the price, selection, service, and hours are better at the big box stores?

[Lakesrider]

Geesh I have said this since I was like 12 or so. Just look at the Harley store in Meridith. By the time you can get out of work they are putting the bikes away and shutting off the lights.

A&B lumber in Moultonborough. closed at what 4-4:30. Sat 9-1200. Just when do people think I will be building a deck or working on a project when I work all week. Yeah on a Saturday. Usually after noon time. Most of the gas docks are closed by 5pm. It is light out until 8:30 - 9:00pm.

And I told the people at the Wineing Butcher they should be open at least until 8pm in the summer. Just when do you want pizza for supper? Yeah right around 7 or 8 oclock. Although I don't agree about thhttp://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gife meats. I have not had any tough/bad meat there this year. Always love the Key West chicken and smoke house tips....

I would love the VK to stay open until 9 during June, July and August. I have heard quite a few people say the same thing. I am always racing to get there before 7:45. Usually I am busy working in the yard and then have to run to take a shower to get there before they close. But if SAMIAM wants me to go to Buckey's instead...... (Hey...Loved the raspberry ice cream at the Red Hill Dairy the other night.... )


There are many businesses that close early and leave everyone scampering for something to do. But hey Pirates Cove Golf is open until 10PM! Funspot is open late. But service companies. No way!

Arghhhh don't get me going......

[Argie's Wife]

I remember when there were Blue Laws and everything was closed on Sunday. Most businesses were closed by 5pm on weekdays, other than restaurants and theaters. Most supermarkets were closed by 6pm or 7pm.

Funny thing... we got by ok back then, ya know. Our groceries and clothing were bought and our gas tanks were full. Most of our stuff was made in America, too. We knew the names of the store owners or the employees and they knew our names. Credit for purchases were on a 3"x5" card kept by the cash register. Sunday afternoons weren't for shopping - they were for going for a drive or a family outing. We didn't mind the stores were closed.

It wasn't that long ago - I'm not that old.

Forgive me, but I am the person who prefers that kind of business. I don't want the Wal-Marts, Lowes, and Best Buys of the world in my back yard. I'm not really crazy about having them in my state. I moved here to get away from the city - and I've lived all over the country but always in a big city - no thanks.

If you change enough about this area so that it's more like [insert favorite city here] then you'll lose the rural charm of the Lakes Region - and what I love about this little corner of the world. Then what? Really?

[sky_nh]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

Funny thing... we got by ok back then, ya know. Our groceries and clothing were bought and our gas tanks were full. Most of our stuff was made in America, too. We knew the names of the store owners or the employees and they knew our names. Credit for purchases were on a 3"x5" card kept by the cash register. Sunday afternoons weren't for shopping - they were for going for a drive or a family outing. We didn't mind the stores were closed.

Sadly, times change and retailers need to change with them. Back in the day most women did not work and there was time to get to the store during the day. Now, most women work in order to allow us to make ends meet. In the meantime, many local retailers have not changed their hours to reflect the new reality.

I teach graduate marketing and advertising classes. Every term I ask my students about local retailers and what they can do to survive in a changing marketing landscape. Most of these "kids" have grown up shopping online, checking out products and pricing online, and expecting 24/7 convenience.

For most of them local retailers don't have a clue, are stuck in the past, and try to make consumers feel guilty because they shop in chain stores and online. They don't use modern communications tools like social media, email marketing, and web sites to reach out to current customers and win new customers. That's not the way to win someone's business.

It's sad to think that the days of the mom and pop local store could be gone forever. I hope not.

Sky

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by sky_nh

Sadly, times change and retailers need to change with them. Back in the day most women did not work and there was time to get to the store during the day. Now, most women work in order to allow us to make ends meet. In the meantime, many local retailers have not changed their hours to reflect the new reality.

I teach graduate marketing and advertising classes. Every term I ask my students about local retailers and what they can do to survive in a changing marketing landscape. Most of these "kids" have grown up shopping online, checking out products and pricing online, and expecting 24/7 convenience.

For most of them local retailers don't have a clue, are stuck in the past, and try to make consumers feel guilty because they shop in chain stores and online. They don't use modern communications tools like social media, email marketing, and web sites to reach out to current customers and win new customers. That's not the way to win someone's business.

It's sad to think that the days of the mom and pop local store could be gone forever. I hope not.

Sky

This may go a little off subject but if you stick with my post, you'll get my point...

I've also worked in marketing and public relations. I understand your point, but the long-term effects of buying foreign and from the big box stores has an impact on the economy that goes far beyond keeping money from the mom and pop local store.

Well, most of the big box stores have policies on the availabily of healthcare for their workers based on a certain number of hours the worker average each week but then they schedule the workers so that they don't qualify for the healthcare. What happens? Those folks have to apply for Medicaid (they're paid so little that they do qualify) or other healthcare coverage assistance, and so who foots that bill? Joe Taxpayer. I've seen this scenario play out on both levels - both as an employee of one of those big box stores years ago and now in my role in healthcare.

So, not only are you helping overseas companies profit hugely (read: mostly China) but you're supporting a bad business practice that needs to be recognized as such. I don't wish for this to turn into a political comment by any means - I'm sharing my "beef" with this practice...

On the flip side of this, I see many "homegrown" stores and businesses that are mom-and-pop or company owned that have become huge successes - I think a combination of great customer service (l.i.s.t.e.n. to the customer) and a web presence are key for me and many of us Gen-X'ers who are about to hit the big four-oh (...and up).

[tis]

I suppose it depends on the business but I think most of us are open according to when we do the most business. If you lose money staying open late at night or on a Sat afternoon or Sunday, then it just doesn't make sense to do so. We lose money every Sat we are open but continue to do so for the convenience of those who only have weekends off.

[TomC]

On the way home from the Town Docks last night my VW Passat started sputtering/running rough and the CEL came on. Its done that before - the coil-on-plug failed, which is a common problem with these cars. I'm on vacation for a couple of weeks and i left my OBDII reader at home, so I couldn't read the trouble code myself. I got the car back to my place in Moult.

First thing this morning I stopped at Cliffords Auto at the top of the Neck road and asked him if he could help me out. Vacation's over this weekend and I have to get back to Mass. I asked if he could fit me in any time before Saturday.

Answer: "no"...

This is 30 min job once the problem is confirmed. I asked if he would read the code, have his parts runner order me the part? I would pay for his time and the part and install the coil myself (its not hard).

Answer: "no"...

I explained that I couldn't drive too far with the car running on 3 cylinders without burning up the catalytic converter and he was the closest garage. would he reconsider and squeeze me in?

Answer: "no... I had to turn a regular customer away earlier for a fuel pump, so I'm not fitting you in"

The good news: I called that foreign car repair place in Holderness across the street from the general store because they always have Audis/VWs out front. I talked to a guy named Pat and he said "if you can get it here, we'll get it done". I nursed the car up there and true to his word, he turned it around in a couple of hours, our vacation resumed, and I'll be able to get home this weekend.

I was rather disappointed that the local "neighborhood" garage basically told me to take a hike. This could have been one of those "good guy garage stories", but instead i'll never be able to recommend them. A shame...

At the same time, I did discover a new place who was willing to help me out of a jam...

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by TomC

On the way home from the Town Docks last night my VW Passat started sputtering/running rough and the CEL came on. Its done that before - the coil-on-plug failed, which is a common problem with these cars. I'm on vacation for a couple of weeks and i left my OBDII reader at home, so I couldn't...

As well as the VW-Audi-BMW-Mercedes car repair shop in Holderness, the nearby Independant VW on Rt 25, Center Harbor is real good with VW Passats, too. Route 25, Holderness-Center Harbor; a couple good places for VW repair expertise!

[MarkinNH]

Originally Posted by TomC

On the way home from the Town Docks last night my VW Passat started sputtering/running rough and the CEL came on. Its done that before - the coil-on-plug failed, which is a common problem with these cars. I'm on vacation for a couple of weeks and i left my OBDII reader at home, so I couldn't read the trouble code myself. I got the car back to my place in Moult.

First thing this morning I stopped at Cliffords Auto at the top of the Neck road and asked him if he could help me out. Vacation's over this weekend and I have to get back to Mass. I asked if he could fit me in any time before Saturday.

Answer: "no"...

This is 30 min job once the problem is confirmed. I asked if he would read the code, have his parts runner order me the part? I would pay for his time and the part and install the coil myself (its not hard).

Answer: "no"...

I explained that I couldn't drive too far with the car running on 3 cylinders without burning up the catalytic converter and he was the closest garage. would he reconsider and squeeze me in?

Answer: "no... I had to turn a regular customer away earlier for a fuel pump, so I'm not fitting you in"

The good news: I called that foreign car repair place in Holderness across the street from the general store because they always have Audis/VWs out front. I talked to a guy named Pat and he said "if you can get it here, we'll get it done". I nursed the car up there and true to his word, he turned it around in a couple of hours, our vacation resumed, and I'll be able to get home this weekend.

I was rather disappointed that the local "neighborhood" garage basically told me to take a hike. This could have been one of those "good guy garage stories", but instead i'll never be able to recommend them. A shame...

At the same time, I did discover a new place who was willing to help me out of a jam...

Why should he push work aside that was previously booked and promised to be done, just to fit you in at the spur of the moment because you are experiencing a known and common problem with your car, you left your own code reader at home and your vacation has been interrupted ?
What makes you so special ?
I understand your frustration with your situation at the time but it doesn't seem right to put down a hard working businessman who was obviously booked up with work, just because you were inconvenienced.
Maybe he is more concerned with upsetting a long time regular, year round, repeat customer, who's repair he was working on and possibly risk losing their business then he was in trying to help you one time.
Sounds to me like he was just being honest, knowing he didn't have time !

[angela4design]

I agree with the thread as a whole... so many local communities "Roll up the sidewalks" after 5-6pm on weekdays. I swear sometimes you'd almost see tumbleweeds rolling around!

I think that merchants are becoming more aware of the issue, though, and I'd like to mention"Thursday Nights Live" as a case in point. Last year was the inaugural year, but it unfortunately rained for a good part of the program. the concept was to have Meredith merchants all participate in an open-house style event every Thursday, with music, wine tastings, special sales etc. I think that the Greater Meredith Program drove the program, and I really applauded the effort. I understand that they're not doing this program again this year, though!

Actually, now that we're on the topic - Meredith even had a Farmer's market on Thursdays that ended, if I recall correctly - at 5pm! Bummer! I would have loved farm fresh produce to put right on the table at dinner, but all I ever saw were the tents, as I often got into town around 6pm!

[TomC]

Originally Posted by MarkinNH

Why should he push work aside that was previously booked and promised to be done, just to fit you in at the spur of the moment because you are experiencing a known and common problem with your car, you left your own code reader at home and your vacation has been interrupted ?
What makes you so special ?
I understand your frustration with your situation at the time but it doesn't seem right to put down a hard working businessman who was obviously booked up with work, just because you were inconvenienced.
Maybe he is more concerned with upsetting a long time regular, year round, repeat customer, who's repair he was working on and possibly risk losing their business then he was in trying to help you one time.
Sounds to me like he was just being honest, knowing he didn't have time !

No one said he had to accommodate me - and he didn't. I'm relaying the story - no "putting down". I guess your "special" rule is that the forum is to write only about positive experiences? All these people that are his repeat customers went there once for the first time... i did yesterday and my first impression was poor.. that's the way it goes.

[Greene's Basin Girl]

Originally Posted by TomC

No one said he had to accommodate me - and he didn't. I'm relaying the story - no "putting down". I guess your "special" rule is that the forum is to write only about positive experiences? All these people that are his repeat customers went there once for the first time... i did yesterday and my first impression was poor.. that's the way it goes.

I live in Moultonborough year round and I get all my auto repairs done at Clifford's. I have to make my appointments way in advance. I recently had a new wheel bearing installed and I had to wait 2 weeks. I prayed my car wouldn't break down. Chris is busy. I would be mad if I had an appointment and my car wasn't done because Chris was fitting everyone else in at the last minute. We all have to wait or like you did go elsewhere.

[Lakesrider]

Originally Posted by Green's Basin Girl

I live in Moultonborough year round and I get all my auto repairs done at Clifford's. I have to make my appointments way in advance. I recently had a new wheel bearing installed and I had to wait 2 weeks. I prayed my car wouldn't break down. Chris is busy. I would be mad if I had an appointment and my car wasn't done because Chris was fitting everyone else in at the last minute. We all have to wait or like you did go elsewhere.

Hmmmm maybe this one for the "What businesses are needed in the Lakes region post. I mean if you have to wait two weeks or more for a wheel bearing which is a pretty quick job....

BTW for you German car folks I just noticed that the Car Craft place across from Lowe's in Gilford is now German Motorsports. VW/Audi service station.

As far as the check engine light being on in Toyotas....Usually just an Oil change reminder. You can go on the internets and find the fix to shut the light off quicker than a Loon can dive.

[MarkinNH]

Originally Posted by TomC

I was rather disappointed that the local "neighborhood" garage basically told me to take a hike. This could have been one of those "good guy garage stories", but instead i'll never be able to recommend them. A shame...

Sure sounds like a put down to me. The ONLY reason you have to Not recommend Cliffords is out of spite. Because they wouldn't drop what they were doing and fix your car. If they had fixed it incorrectly, then you would have a legitimate reason to "not recommend" them.
Those of us who live and work year round here, are all grateful for the income that comes our way from the out of state seasonal residents and the tourist trade and none of us like to or want to turn away work. Sometimes it is the only proper thing to do when your plate is currently full. Trying to take on a job you know you Really don't have time for, but you agree to it because the person is in a bind, isn't being honest to the person in the bind nor is it fair to customers with previously booked work.
Even a 30 minute repair, which in reality will probably burn up an hour, means that everything else previously booked and promised now gets shoved back an hour. As Greens Basin Girl already said. I to would be mad, if I went to pick my truck up, needing it for work etc., assuming it would be ready per agreement, only to find out that it isn't ready because the mechanic walked away from my job so as to accommodate somebody who drifted in off the street wanting and needing his car fixed right away.
Chris ( yes I have known him for 20+ yrs.) was not telling you to take a hike. He was being honest and up front.
Would you have preferred him to say, Sure I can fix it, Come back in an hour. Then when you return you find out he hasn't touched it yet because he was trying to help out Another person in off the street ? I don't think so.
Sometimes you just have to say No I can't do it, I just don't have time. I am glad you were able to get your repair made. I am also sorry that you now have a poor opinion about a local business that did nothing wrong.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by MarkinNH

Sure sounds like a put down to me. The ONLY reason you have to Not recommend Cliffords is out of spite. Because they wouldn't drop what they were doing and fix your car. If they had fixed it incorrectly, then you would have a legitimate reason to "not recommend" them.
Those of us who live and work year round here, are all grateful for the income that comes our way from the out of state seasonal residents and the tourist trade and none of us like to or want to turn away work. Sometimes it is the only proper thing to do when your plate is currently full. Trying to take on a job you know you Really don't have time for, but you agree to it because the person is in a bind, isn't being honest to the person in the bind nor is it fair to customers with previously booked work.
Even a 30 minute repair, which in reality will probably burn up an hour, means that everything else previously booked and promised now gets shoved back an hour. As Greens Basin Girl already said. I to would be mad, if I went to pick my truck up, needing it for work etc., assuming it would be ready per agreement, only to find out that it isn't ready because the mechanic walked away from my job so as to accommodate somebody who drifted in off the street wanting and needing his car fixed right away.
Chris ( yes I have known him for 20+ yrs.) was not telling you to take a hike. He was being honest and up front.
Would you have preferred him to say, Sure I can fix it, Come back in an hour. Then when you return you find out he hasn't touched it yet because he was trying to help out Another person in off the street ? I don't think so.
Sometimes you just have to say No I can't do it, I just don't have time. I am glad you were able to get your repair made. I am also sorry that you now have a poor opinion about a local business that did nothing wrong.

Maybe another way would have been that the mechanic worked two hours longer on that day and thus was able to do his regular jobs and also do this job? Let's face it, those who work at the so called big box stores or let's say, Pep Boys, where they took my car on a holiday and finished it on a Sunday, work long and irregular hours to keep their clients happy.

[Jonas Pilot]

How do you know he didn't work an extra two hours to try to finish the work he already had in the shop?

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

Maybe another way would have been that the mechanic worked two hours longer on that day and thus was able to do his regular jobs and also do this job? Let's face it, those who work at the so called big box stores or let's say, Pep Boys, where they took my car on a holiday and finished it on a Sunday, work long and irregular hours to keep their clients happy.

Well you should know that places like you mention, big box stores, quick lube places, auto parts stores etc... all employ either brand new rookies or dealer cast off mechanics that couldn't hack it because they either had no clue what they were doing or did sloppy work with a ton of "come backs". Dealers cannot afford to employ these folks, if they have a crappy mechanic they are shown the door and they end up in those places cause they can't work anywhere else. Couple that with the cheapo made in Mexico one size fits all parts that are surely guaranteed to fail prematurely and you're absolutely right, that's one hell of a deal you get at those places. There are some decent parts you can get from a parts store, but they are far and few between and you gotta love that "lifetime warranty". I find it comical how many folks will drop 20- 30 - 40- 50K on a vehicle then take it to some place where substandard parts are used and the work is done by a bunch of wanna be hacks. Hey it's your vehicle, your money, your investment, how you treat it will determine how it treats you. Why do you think now so many manufacturers and dealers are wrapping "free service" in with lease deals? Cause they don't want you going to those places, that leased car is at some point going to come back and be re-sold. Dealers don't want stuff back that has not been properly maintained, especially off lease vehicles which are the biggest money makers for them. They loose a significant amount of money if these cars come back and end up sent out for wholesale.

[fatlazyless]

Looking for an owner-operatored, independant hardware store with very good inventory selection and decent pricing including interior paint, exterior paint and exterior stains? Check out Ash Hardware, in the precise geographic center of New Hampshire, Ashland, NH, Rt 93-exit 24, or on Rt 25.

[VtSteve]

The thread started out with the problems with local merchant's hours of operations. Yes, some things are worth waiting for. Some not so much. I know our Costco is a great local employer. Excluding the benefits, which are very good, they pay their employees at least $3-$4 an hour more than any local merchant does. I don't care what the owner(s) make.

Wal Mart, well everyone knows their practices. Don't confuse local ownership with all that is good, it's not necessarily that way.

As for car dealers? I patronize my local car dealer almost 100%.

[Greene's Basin Girl]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

The thread started out with the problems with local merchant's hours of operations. Yes, some things are worth waiting for. Some not so much. I know our Costco is a great local employer. Excluding the benefits, which are very good, they pay their employees at least $3-$4 an hour more than any local merchant does. I don't care what the owner(s) make.

Wal Mart, well everyone knows their practices. Don't confuse local ownership with all that is good, it's not necessarily that way.

As for car dealers? I patronize my local car dealer almost 100%.

I stopped at The Old Country Store in Moultonborough last night at 8:25pm. I asked the clerk if they were closing. He was extremely friend and said that they were open until 9:00pm. That's one local merchant that stays open to increase business. So...if you out and about in Moultonborough in the evening it may be a place to visit.

[WakeboardMom]

Originally Posted by tis

I suppose it depends on the business but I think most of us are open according to when we do the most business. If you lose money staying open late at night or on a Sat afternoon or Sunday, then it just doesn't make sense to do so. We lose money every Sat we are open but continue to do so for the convenience of those who only have weekends off.

I'm sorry to hear that you lose money every Saturday, but I bet folks like me are the reason why. I'm unwilling to leave the lake during one of my precious two days in Moultonborough.

As I'm driving there from the south on a Friday night, I do sometimes wonder why some businesses don't stay open later on a Thursday or Friday evening. There's a place in Meredith called Lavender Blue that I'd love to stop into if they were open past 5 pm. According to their website, "We are open year round. Late May through December we are open 7 days a week, usually 10am – 5pm (later in Summer months). January through May we are open Thursday through Sunday, 10am – 5pm. Our Website is open 24/7, 365 days a year!" It's not on their marquee that they're currently open late.

I worked retail during high school and college, and yes, the MA Blue Laws were still in effect. I loved having a guaranteed day off (Sunday). Even in those days, though, retail shops in tourist areas were allowed to open on Sundays. One has to make hay while the sun shines; and if you choose to be in a business that the most opportune time to make money is while other folks are enjoying time off, then it is what it is.

[vmartino26]

I have to agree that the open/close hours of some of the businesses is a bit crazy. My wife and I travel to the Orlando/Disney area frequently during the course of a year. Restaurants, shops, stores, malls, etc, are open all the time. Restaurants are open until eleven or twelve, sometimes even one in the morning. It seems they understand people are on vacation and may be staying out later than usual.

We went to Alton last Saturday night for a concert at their gazebo. The show ended about nine. We headed back to the Meredith/Laconia/Gilford area and virtually nothing was open. Restaurants were closed. Ice cream shops were closed. We finally headed over to the Weirs to get something at the ice cream stand there.

It would seem to me that with the economy still having difficulties, and with the season in the Laconia area being so short, that businesses would be open as much as possible luring in the tourists.

Even with all that, we still love the Lake!

[MAXUM]

Don't know how many have noticed or not but most of these big box stores are selling cheaper "made for box stores" versions of the real deal yet charging all the money for them.

By far Wal Mart is the worst, they prey on the poor folks by stocking those super stores with crappy food and cheapo junk all made in China. Wal Mart doesn't get any business from me, I'll go anywhere but that place.

[tis]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Don't know how many have noticed or not but most of these big box stores are selling cheaper "made for box stores" versions of the real deal yet charging all the money for them.

I don't think most people realize that Maxum. For instance the John Deere tractors are made just for them and the Anderson windows don't have Anderson screens and hardware-at least they didn't used to. You are often getting a different product, but who would think to ask??

[Newbiesaukee]

Although I shop locally whenever possible, the products are just as likely to have been made in China as in the big box stores. Clearly, there are exceptions depending on the type of business; but country of origin is another topic entirely. I shop locally to attempt to help the community and expect to have better service even at a slightly higher price. But I think the point is well taken that longer hours ARE better service. Not quite on point, but I won't pay 30% higher for the same product even if it is at a locally owned store.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I would prefer that a store took a day or two off but stayed open until 7-8 the days they were open.

[NoBozo]

My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$

Every two years we (RI) have to have the car inspected. This is done by inserting Their plug into Your OBD plug under the dash and reading the Codes. This tells THEM that your car is COOL and you PASS....OR NOT.

SO: The day I go to have the car inspected,...I disconnect the negative battery cable and leave it disconnected for an hour or two. Overnight is better. The OBD Computer loses its memory and does not regain that memory for a day or two. The car passes inspection and all is well for the next two years...except the check engine light comes on a day later and I have to LIVE with it. Just sayin. Try IT. You will save thousands in BOGUS repair expences.

BTW: I KNOW more about cars than They Do. NB

PS: I bought a 1995 Tacoma New in 1996. I sold it in 2007 with 145,000 miles on it. The Check Engine Light haunted me for the whole time. That experience taught me to do what I have recomended above. You have Nothing to loose.

PPS: I am a stuborn OLD FART.

[Sunbeam lodge]

[QUOTE=NoBozo;132905]My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$



PS: I bought a 1995 Tacoma New in 1996. I sold it in 2007 with 145,000 miles on it. The Check Engine Light haunted me for the whole time. That experience taught me to do what I have recomended above. You have Nothing to loose.

I had the same irritating problem looking at that Check engine light. Just put a piece of that good old duct tape over it.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$

Every two years we (RI) have to have the car inspected. This is done by inserting Their plug into Your OBD plug under the dash and reading the Codes. This tells THEM that your car is COOL and you PASS....OR NOT.

SO: The day I go to have the car inspected,...I disconnect the negative battery cable and leave it disconnected for an hour or two. Overnight is better. The OBD Computer loses its memory and does not regain that memory for a day or two. The car passes inspection and all is well for the next two years...except the check engine light comes on a day later and I have to LIVE with it. Just sayin. Try IT. You will save thousands in BOGUS repair expences.

I'm left with 2 thoughts. Either Toyota isn't in compliance with OBDII regs or the service station isn't actually plugging their tester into the plug. When you remove power the fault light goes out (some cars store the faults in flash memory and don't clear). What's supposed to happen is that over the next 100 - 200 miles of driving the car is (ideally) going to experience a wide enough range of operating conditions to be able to assess it's compliance with the federal emissions regulations. If it doesn't pass then the check engine light comes on. If it passes, it doesn't. Until this testing has been done the cars computer will "know" the testing isn't complete and communicate this "not ready" state to the stations testing reader. A "not ready" on the readiness code should not get you a passed sticker.

ps - Not every reason that makes the check engine light come on is reason to fail emission testing. A lot of the auto parts places will read your fault codes for free ... hoping to sell you parts of course.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$

Every two years we (RI) have to have the car inspected. This is done by inserting Their plug into Your OBD plug under the dash and reading the Codes. This tells THEM that your car is COOL and you PASS....OR NOT.

SO: The day I go to have the car inspected,...I disconnect the negative battery cable and leave it disconnected for an hour or two. Overnight is better. The OBD Computer loses its memory and does not regain that memory for a day or two. The car passes inspection and all is well for the next two years...except the check engine light comes on a day later and I have to LIVE with it. Just sayin. Try IT. You will save thousands in BOGUS repair expences.

BTW: I KNOW more about cars than They Do. NB

PS: I bought a 1995 Tacoma New in 1996. I sold it in 2007 with 145,000 miles on it. The Check Engine Light haunted me for the whole time. That experience taught me to do what I have recomended above. You have Nothing to loose.

PPS: I am a stuborn OLD FART.

You probably need a $10 gas cap.........

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

My wifes Camry is a 2005. The car runs fine. Gas mileage is fine. The check engine light has been on for the past FOUR Years. I refuse to subject myself to the Barracudas at any Toyota dealer and I will NOT PAY to have those Barracudas READ my Codes and prounounce my engine Faulty.....$$$$

Every two years we (RI) have to have the car inspected. This is done by inserting Their plug into Your OBD plug under the dash and reading the Codes. This tells THEM that your car is COOL and you PASS....OR NOT.

SO: The day I go to have the car inspected,...I disconnect the negative battery cable and leave it disconnected for an hour or two. Overnight is better. The OBD Computer loses its memory and does not regain that memory for a day or two. The car passes inspection and all is well for the next two years...except the check engine light comes on a day later and I have to LIVE with it. Just sayin. Try IT. You will save thousands in BOGUS repair expences.

BTW: I KNOW more about cars than They Do. NB

PS: I bought a 1995 Tacoma New in 1996. I sold it in 2007 with 145,000 miles on it. The Check Engine Light haunted me for the whole time. That experience taught me to do what I have recomended above. You have Nothing to loose.

PPS: I am a stuborn OLD FART.

Let me see if I can dispel at least some of this for you NB. I'll start by telling you that I used to work for Toyota as a tech (certified by Toyota and ASE as well for what that's worth). I'm no longer in the business, but still do plenty of wrenching on my own vehicles and family as well. I personally have one Toyota and two Lexus's. I won't own anything but...

The on board computer you have in your car must meet the ODBII standard which is a FEDERAL standard, not something that Toyota made up. The purpose of this standard was prior OBD systems were all proprietary and you did need a special scanner to easily read the diags, although there were ways around that as well by crossing the E1/TE1 ports with a jumper wire on the diagnostics connection and count the CEL (check engine light) flashes on the dash. The service manual would tell you what the code flashes stood for. ** EDIT ** This also is only for Toyota brand vehicles. Early generation EFI systems it was E1/T1, later it was E1/TE1.

Now ODBII introduced as I said a federal standard that ALL vehicles manufactured after 1996 have identical onboard diagnostics that all can be read with a single scanner, have the same plug interface and all use the same basic code library. Before this happened it really was a total PITA to be a "general all brands" mechanic. This allows for anyone to buy an inexpensive scanner to pull basic codes on any make or model 1996 or newer. It also helped out the independent shops from having to buy a scanner for every manufacturer and keep them updated every time a new model year hit the pavement. Believe me these factory scanners are big bucks. Now all manufacturers have extended libraries and codes that are brand specific but these are for more for diagnostics of proprietary systems. The basic ODBII federally mandated code library is mostly for throwing the CEL if a problem is detected in the emissions control system. For example I had a code thrown in my Lexus ES300 that was from the SRS library (supplemental restraint system - IE air bag system) and needed the extended Toyota reader to pull those codes.

It should be noted, if the computer is being sniffed for inspection.... you will fail if you reset the computer and immediately bring it down to be read. Before I get into why... if you want to reset the CEL, any over the counter ODBII scanner can do so. If you don't want to shell out the 50-100 bucks for one, instead of pulling the battery cable (which if done incorrectly can do damage to the electrical system) near the battery should be a fuse block, find the EFI fuse (usually a 15 amp) pull it for 30 seconds and plug it back in. Your onboard ODBII memory will be cleared and the light goes out. **EDIT** as a disclaimer, I know this works on all Toyota cars and trucks, other brands I have no idea. The CEL light will only go out after doing this if you are experiencing an intermittent problem, or the issue is not detected immediately. Some sensors that are in hard failure will immediately kick the CEL upon reset. Others like a faulty O2 sensor may not kick the CEL until it's seen several bad readings over a period of time.

On to why it's on and inspections. In order to pass inspection there must be no codes stored in the computer, a stored code equals a CEL on the dash. The computer must also be fully initialized and have gone through a full system data collection cycle which takes time from the point of reset. If you reset the computer and try to read it right away it shows several data points as "pending data collection" and if your car is being inspected and the computer is found in this state, you will not fail, but you will not pass. Rather they will ask you to come back later to re-sniff the computer or I should say that's what *should* happen. Time for full initialization of all data collections varies but usually if you drive about 50 - 100 miles or so that is enough but I have heard but cannot confirm some are based on start/stop engine cycles. What ever the case may be, you should be aware of this.

Now why is it on, well get the computer sniffed and you'll be able to find out what the problem is. Some auto parts stores will do it for free if you don't want to buy a scanner, Autozone comes to mind as a place that will scan for free, they also sell the scanners. Frankly the scanners are so cheap now it's almost silly not to just go buy one.

You need to be careful here because chances are the code being thrown is related to the emissions control system and although the car and even the gas mileage may seem perfectly normal the condition being flagged could over the long term do damage to the engine. For example - you may be running to lean in one of the EFI banks, a situation that otherwise would not make any difference in performance. Run in that condition long enough and you will do permanent and potentially catastrophic damage to the engine. I agree that the CEL can and does come on at times for bogus reasons, but if it keeps on returning with the same code something is wrong. Usually when I'm running diags on my own vehicles I'll pull the engine codes and then clear them out and wait to see if they return and if they do (50/50 shot) and how long it took for them to come back. I have at times driven for a while 2K miles or so to see if the problem will correct itself and kill the CEL or not. Then from there determine what needs to be fixed and address it.

Engines now a days are pretty sophisticated and attempt to think for themselves at times. If your Camry has a faulty sensor the computer can and will in the interest of emissions control may change the way the engine runs to compensate for whatever it thinks is broken or faulty.

If you think this is all bad the Government is working on the ODBIII standard which as it has been rumored will shut down your car if the CEL comes on and you ignore it for x amount of miles. It will also have a built in GPS unit and have the capability to output the health of your vehicle via satellite connection. The idea is to have your vehicle report it's having problems to your local stealership so they can call you on the phone to come in for service. Not to be out done here in the real commie states like California they are talking about outfitting the state police with readers that can pick this stuff up and actually pull over and ticket people to get their cars fixed. The DMV also wants access to this so they can black ball your registration renewal until repaired. Other states (of the typical liberal way of thinking) have expressed similar interest. I'm all for clean cars and keeping stuff in good working order, but this is way over the top if it's ever adopted, and don't think for one second is won't.

Um geeze I think I just blew about 45 minutes of work off to write this, back to the grind... NB I have no idea where you live but I'd be more than happy to sniff your computer and tell you what it's barfing about. It's takes all of about 2 minutes to pull the codes.

Had to make a couple edits just to make the statement that I know this stuff only works on Toyota vehicles, any other brand I have no idea. All my prior experience is with one brand, which is why that's all a drive.

[VitaBene]

Thank you for that very informative post.

The OBDIII scenario you note is scary (but very much real and believable). Many new cars store data that can get their owners in trouble in the event of an accident, etc.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Let me see if I can dispel at least some of this for you NB. I'll start by telling you that I used to work for Toyota as a tech (certified by Toyota and ASE as well for what that's worth). I'm no longer in the business, but still do plenty of wrenching on my own vehicles and family as well. I personally have one Toyota and two Lexus's. I won't own anything but...

The on board computer you have in your car must meet the ODBII standard which is a FEDERAL standard, not something that Toyota made up. The purpose of this standard was prior OBD systems were all proprietary and you did need a special scanner to easily read the diags, although there were ways around that as well by crossing the E1/TE1 ports with a jumper wire on the diagnostics connection and count the CEL (check engine light) flashes on the dash. The service manual would tell you what the code flashes stood for. ** EDIT ** This also is only for Toyota brand vehicles. Early generation EFI systems it was E1/T1, later it was E1/TE1.

Now ODBII introduced as I said a federal standard that ALL vehicles manufactured after 1996 have identical onboard diagnostics that all can be read with a single scanner, have the same plug interface and all use the same basic code library. Before this happened it really was a total PITA to be a "general all brands" mechanic. This allows for anyone to buy an inexpensive scanner to pull basic codes on any make or model 1996 or newer. It also helped out the independent shops from having to buy a scanner for every manufacturer and keep them updated every time a new model year hit the pavement. Believe me these factory scanners are big bucks. Now all manufacturers have extended libraries and codes that are brand specific but these are for more for diagnostics of proprietary systems. The basic ODBII federally mandated code library is mostly for throwing the CEL if a problem is detected in the emissions control system. For example I had a code thrown in my Lexus ES300 that was from the SRS library (supplemental restraint system - IE air bag system) and needed the extended Toyota reader to pull those codes.

It should be noted, if the computer is being sniffed for inspection.... you will fail if you reset the computer and immediately bring it down to be read. Before I get into why... if you want to reset the CEL, any over the counter ODBII scanner can do so. If you don't want to shell out the 50-100 bucks for one, instead of pulling the battery cable (which if done incorrectly can do damage to the electrical system) near the battery should be a fuse block, find the EFI fuse (usually a 15 amp) pull it for 30 seconds and plug it back in. Your onboard ODBII memory will be cleared and the light goes out. **EDIT** as a disclaimer, I know this works on all Toyota cars and trucks, other brands I have no idea. The CEL light will only go out after doing this if you are experiencing an intermittent problem, or the issue is not detected immediately. Some sensors that are in hard failure will immediately kick the CEL upon reset. Others like a faulty O2 sensor may not kick the CEL until it's seen several bad readings over a period of time.

On to why it's on and inspections. In order to pass inspection there must be no codes stored in the computer, a stored code equals a CEL on the dash. The computer must also be fully initialized and have gone through a full system data collection cycle which takes time from the point of reset. If you reset the computer and try to read it right away it shows several data points as "pending data collection" and if your car is being inspected and the computer is found in this state, you will not fail, but you will not pass. Rather they will ask you to come back later to re-sniff the computer or I should say that's what *should* happen. Time for full initialization of all data collections varies but usually if you drive about 50 - 100 miles or so that is enough but I have heard but cannot confirm some are based on start/stop engine cycles. What ever the case may be, you should be aware of this.

Now why is it on, well get the computer sniffed and you'll be able to find out what the problem is. Some auto parts stores will do it for free if you don't want to buy a scanner, Autozone comes to mind as a place that will scan for free, they also sell the scanners. Frankly the scanners are so cheap now it's almost silly not to just go buy one.

You need to be careful here because chances are the code being thrown is related to the emissions control system and although the car and even the gas mileage may seem perfectly normal the condition being flagged could over the long term do damage to the engine. For example - you may be running to lean in one of the EFI banks, a situation that otherwise would not make any difference in performance. Run in that condition long enough and you will do permanent and potentially catastrophic damage to the engine. I agree that the CEL can and does come on at times for bogus reasons, but if it keeps on returning with the same code something is wrong. Usually when I'm running diags on my own vehicles I'll pull the engine codes and then clear them out and wait to see if they return and if they do (50/50 shot) and how long it took for them to come back. I have at times driven for a while 2K miles or so to see if the problem will correct itself and kill the CEL or not. Then from there determine what needs to be fixed and address it.

Engines now a days are pretty sophisticated and attempt to think for themselves at times. If your Camry has a faulty sensor the computer can and will in the interest of emissions control may change the way the engine runs to compensate for whatever it thinks is broken or faulty.

If you think this is all bad the Government is working on the ODBIII standard which as it has been rumored will shut down your car if the CEL comes on and you ignore it for x amount of miles. It will also have a built in GPS unit and have the capability to output the health of your vehicle via satellite connection. The idea is to have your vehicle report it's having problems to your local stealership so they can call you on the phone to come in for service. Not to be out done here in the real commie states like California they are talking about outfitting the state police with readers that can pick this stuff up and actually pull over and ticket people to get their cars fixed. The DMV also wants access to this so they can black ball your registration renewal until repaired. Other states (of the typical liberal way of thinking) have expressed similar interest. I'm all for clean cars and keeping stuff in good working order, but this is way over the top if it's ever adopted, and don't think for one second is won't.

Um geeze I think I just blew about 45 minutes of work off to write this, back to the grind... NB I have no idea where you live but I'd be more than happy to sniff your computer and tell you what it's barfing about. It's takes all of about 2 minutes to pull the codes.

Had to make a couple edits just to make the statement that I know this stuff only works on Toyota vehicles, any other brand I have no idea. All my prior experience is with one brand, which is why that's all a drive.

Hey MAXIM. I Didn't Read all of your post. You might try to limit the verbage......Try BREVITY my Friend....

I worked for Toyota as well....As a Degreed Engineer (I also know how to turn a wrench) AND as a Criticle Observer AND a Customer. Two NEW trucks and one car from the same dealer that I worked for.. Not going to go in to it here because it's not Lakes Region related. Best Regards MAXIM. NB

BTW: I have owned ALL New Toyotas since 1974...with a brief interlude with Honda, so I am not bashing Toyota out of hand.

[fatnoah]

I prefer to "go local" whenever possible. If some store owner is going to make money off my dime, I'd rather it be someone in my community than a huge chain's CEO. Don't get me wrong, I hit up the big boxes and Internet all the time, but all things being equal (or close enough) it's local for me.

Don't know how many have noticed or not but most of these big box stores are selling cheaper "made for box stores" versions of the real deal yet charging all the money for them

This is very widespread. For electronics, the model numbers may even be slightly different too.

When I was building a brick walkway, I priced out my local lumber store vs. Lowes/Home Depot. The big boxes were cheaper, but I also noticed that their bricks seemed to be less dense and more cheaply made. I ended up buying from the local place because the price difference wasn't much.

I also prefer going to the local hardware store. I've found that even the high-school kids that work at the store know where everything is, and with the exception of building supplies, the selection is nearly identical...they just don't have hundreds of everything in stock. If they don't have it, they'll order it. My only complaint is that they don't take AMEX.

On the other side of the coin, plants are so cheap at the big boxes, I get most smaller stuff from them.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

.

Hi MAXUM: I just had a chance to read your entire post this afternoon. Interesting stuff.

In a perfect world, the OBDII computer can be a useful device. On my old truck when the CEL first came on at around 50K miles, (Warranty expired) I took it to the dealer and they "sniffed" the computer and found nothing. They charged me $35 to do it.

The next time it tripped, I reset it (battery disconnect) and started a Logbook with the mileage everytime the CEL went on, I would write down the mileage. For 40K miles or so I did this with NO decernable pattern. Miles between tripping were random..sometimes a couple of thousand miles apart..sometimes only a hundred. The only work I did on the truck ('95 Taco) that would have any connection to OBD were replacing O2 sensor Gaskets & Nuts in the exhaust pipe. The sensors themselves May Have been bad but it didn't have any effect on the way the truck ran....AND State Inspection didn't use the OBD then.

MY Problem is, I have never really Trusted Dealers to be Honest mechanics. This was reinforced on my last LAST TWO consecutive visits to the dealer where I had purchased my last three NEW vehicles, and had had almost all my service done for the previous 14 years.

So I'm back to changing my own oil again..@ 69 years old. I have not been back to that dealer since. Almost two years.

MAXUM..My apologies for not reading your entire post last night. NB

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Hi MAXUM: I just had a chance to read your entire post this afternoon. Interesting stuff.

In a perfect world, the OBDII computer can be a useful device. On my old truck when the CEL first came on at around 50K miles, (Warranty expired) I took it to the dealer and they "sniffed" the computer and found nothing. They charged me $35 to do it.

The next time it tripped, I reset it (battery disconnect) and started a Logbook with the mileage everytime the CEL went on, I would write down the mileage. For 40K miles or so I did this with NO decernable pattern. Miles between tripping were random..sometimes a couple of thousand miles apart..sometimes only a hundred. The only work I did on the truck ('95 Taco) that would have any connection to OBD were replacing O2 sensor Gaskets & Nuts in the exhaust pipe. The sensors themselves May Have been bad but it didn't have any effect on the way the truck ran....AND State Inspection didn't use the OBD then.

MY Problem is, I have never really Trusted Dealers to be Honest mechanics. This was reinforced on my last LAST TWO consecutive visits to the dealer where I had purchased my last three NEW vehicles, and had had almost all my service done for the previous 14 years.

So I'm back to changing my own oil again..@ 69 years old. I have not been back to that dealer since. Almost two years.

MAXUM..My apologies for not reading your entire post last night. NB

No sweat NB, I will admit to getting a little wordy sometimes and certainly have my opinions, good bad or indifferent.

For your Taco, (if it was the 3.4L 5VZE) three typical problem areas for throwing the CEL. Again not knowing the codes makes it pure speculation but I would bet in the following order on that one based on your description.

1. dirty MAF (mass air flow) sensor, very common problem.
2. loose crank case breather tube into the intake hose pre plenum.
3. air leaks at the O2 sensor flange, especially a problem on the heated O2 sensor (pre cat)


I've had the first two on my 98 T100 4X4, all three on my sister's 00 Tundra. I don't blame you on not trusting mechanics, we had some real idiots that worked at the dealer where I worked, there was also alot of up selling work that did not need to be done and sometimes wasn't (but still charged). That is part of the reason I bailed from being a mechanic, I'm to honest a guy to openly screw people like that, my service manager well he had no conscience so he had no problems sleeping at night. Sad for sure. I won't let anyone touch my vehicles period.

Enough of all the mechanical stuff, that's what other boards are for, my apologies for getting a bit out of hand and off topic. I just love mechanical stuff and figured maybe I could help you out a bit.

Lake Content: What the heck am I doing working on a day like today when I should be out on the boat on the lake? Answer: Oh yeah gas ain't free for the working class bums.

Cheers!

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

:

For your Taco, (if it was the 3.4L 5VZE) three typical problem areas for throwing the CEL. Again not knowing the codes makes it pure speculation but I would bet in the following order on that one based on your description.

Cheers!

YUP: That was it. 3.4L V6 5 speed manual trans 4x4. That was a NICE truck. I would get 22 mpg towing a 3000# boat across the mountains in Vermont driving from Winni to Lake George. Sometimes 27 mpg highway without the boat. That truck was only supposed to get 19 mpg highway.

I sold it for $5000 and a year and a half later, the buyer sold it back to Toyota for $8600. (The Rusty Chassis buyback.)

Toyota doesn't need the Government leaning on them, for them to STEP UP to the plate when something isn't right. NB

[RailroadJoe]

Thanks NB Does disconnecting the battery really reset the CEL? I had a problem with one and it cost me a bundle and ended up getting a new car. The old one never had a problem, only that the CEL stayed on for a year. Caused it to be rejected by the mechanic at inspection time.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

Thanks NB Does disconnecting the battery really reset the CEL? I had a problem with one and it cost me a bundle and ended up getting a new car. The old one never had a problem, only that the CEL stayed on for a year. Caused it to be rejected by the mechanic at inspection time.

Dis-Connecting the battery worked for me. (2005 Camry) It turned OFF the CEL and the car passed inspection. I can't say if it "Reset" the computer. This may be what ...."IS..IS". I think MAXUM knows more about the "Intricacies" of this than I do. NB

[sky_nh]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

So, not only are you helping overseas companies profit hugely (read: mostly China) but you're supporting a bad business practice that needs to be recognized as such. I don't wish for this to turn into a political comment by any means - I'm sharing my "beef" with this practice...

Thanks for replying to my post but I don't think I was advocating shopping at one type of retailer over another. My point was simply that consumer demographics and preferences have changed drastically over the past few decades -- and especially among younger consumers -- and that retailers who want to survive need to adapt to those changes or go out of business.

Clearly, there will be exceptions to the rule, but we have already seen the consequences of sticking to the old retailing strategies.

-- Sky

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by sky_nh

Thanks for replying to my post but I don't think I was advocating shopping at one type of retailer over another. My point was simply that consumer demographics and preferences have changed drastically over the past few decades -- and especially among younger consumers -- and that retailers who want to survive need to adapt to those changes or go out of business.

Clearly, there will be exceptions to the rule, but we have already seen the consequences of sticking to the old retailing strategies.

-- Sky

Oh I didn't take it that you were - I took your comments as broad strokes. I also understand that different generations shop different. My mother is the type that still prefers to shop by catalogue and phone - that's just her.

And my comments about politics and not wanting to go down that road is because threads turn ugly when that subject comes around - I was putting a kabosh on it before anyone got started.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

I remember when there were Blue Laws and everything was closed on Sunday. Most businesses were closed by 5pm on weekdays, other than restaurants and theaters. Most supermarkets were closed by 6pm or 7pm.

Funny thing... we got by ok back then, ya know. Our groceries and clothing were bought and our gas tanks were full. Most of our stuff was made in America, too. We knew the names of the store owners or the employees and they knew our names. Credit for purchases were on a 3"x5" card kept by the cash register. Sunday afternoons weren't for shopping - they were for going for a drive or a family outing. We didn't mind the stores were closed.

It wasn't that long ago - I'm not that old.

Forgive me, but I am the person who prefers that kind of business. I don't want the Wal-Marts, Lowes, and Best Buys of the world in my back yard. I'm not really crazy about having them in my state. I moved here to get away from the city - and I've lived all over the country but always in a big city - no thanks.

If you change enough about this area so that it's more like [insert favorite city here] then you'll lose the rural charm of the Lakes Region - and what I love about this little corner of the world. Then what? Really?

Then what? I love the lake!!!!!!!!!!!! Listening to Loons is another love of mine. Watching the sunsets and sunrises is wonderful. Friendly vacationing people are great.

I like AW and how she wants us to remember our neighbors in the heat wave! Now there is a person who is missing in other places. You go girl!!

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by sea_n_ski

Every summer I shake my head and many of the merchants up here. I really do my best to shop up here for benefit of our local merchants. If we don't support them they will vanish. But sometimes you have to wonder if they are their own worst enemy.

But for the life of me why to many of them close early? Went to DeSilva's to get some Jet Ski oil on Saturday and they were closed at 3 PM. They stay open until 5 PM during the week, but on Saturday which should be their busiest day, they cut out at 3. Tried to buy some meat at the Wine'ing Butcher Friday night and they were closed. Just as well their meat is tough as nails this year. Gave me a chance to go to Jo Jos the next day. Blizzards closed their Ice Cream window with 10 people in line wanted to get a cone. Channel Marine is the exception staying open until 8 on Fridays.

These stores should stay open late during the summer. I would imagine most of their business comes during these 10 weeks of summer. They should do anything they can to get all the business they can. Hey go home early in February.

I second the Wine'ing Butcher observation. Their meat has been tough as nails this year. This is the third time In recent months that I got another mouth full of grit. I'm taking a break. I love the place, and I hope they get it together cause I will be back. Sorry for going off-topic.