Irritating loud boat

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by chipj29

If there is a problem with loud boats, wouldn't a noise law be more prudent than a speed limit? It goes directly to the cause of the problem.

Lets not go back to the SL debate. However yes your question would be correct that if there is a noise issue that it should be addressed by noise statutes.

I believe the statute is 93 dcb. (hopefully someone knows it off hand) Most above water exhaust boats have either internal or clamp on external mufflers that keep it below the decible rating. If a boat has no mufflers at all and straight through hull exhaust it is very very apparent.

A boat within the legal noise limits can seem too loud depending on the situation. If you are in a smaller cove, no wind, no other ambient noises, the echo can make a boat seem louder then it actually is. This goes not only for above water exhaust but jet skies, planes, cars, snowmobiles, motorcycles etc. It is all relative. I am not sure if this was the case in the initial post for I wasn't there, however I have heard the boat and it did not seem outside the legal decible ratings.

The main arguement that I have researched extensively is the claim that one can install captains call (switchable exhaust) so that they can switch on the "loud" exhaust at anytime. This is not exactly true.

First let me say that any type of switchable exhaust is illegal in NH. I do not agree with that but we can discuss that another time. Captains call is designed to be used at low rpms. (under 2000 rpms). It keeps the boat much quieter while at idle. This is normally used for when warming up the boat at the dock, in a channel, or inside a congested bay at idle. There have been claims that a performance boat with HP engines can simply switch it on "at speed" to mute the engine, when they see a MP. This is NOT the case. Anything over 2000 rpms and you can do severe damage if not blow your engine due to the back pressure. There is not a type of switchable exhaust for "Performance Engines" that can be turned on at speed without potential catastrophic damage to the engine(s).

There used to be a type, not sure if it is still available, called "silent choice". What this did was redirect the exhaust to "thru hub" or under the water. This could only be used on NON HP engines, because again HP engines needs much less back pressure to run correctly.

There have been many claims about this in the debate on the "law that we will not discuss" and I just wanted to explain the differences and get the facts out concerning that. I am not suggesting we get into that discussion again.

Now as for "my opinion". I have mufflers on my boat that work great. Since the supercharger has been removed the boat is extremely quiet and I have not lost too much performance out of it. (about 5 mph). I can remove the mufflers when I am not on the lake and put on straight tips without too much effort. My opinion is that switchable exhaust should be allowed. I would be more then happy to turn it on when in a channel, or at the dock while warming up the engine. This way I am not upsetting anyone who doesn't like the sound of the above water exhaust. However we are not allowed to have them.

That is something I think both sides of this debate could work on together. It simply would benefit everyone.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

I believe the statute is 93 dcb. (hopefully someone knows it off hand) Most above water exhaust boats have either internal or clamp on external mufflers that keep it below the decible rating. If a boat has no mufflers at all and straight through hull exhaust it is very very apparent.

According to NH BoatEd it is 88dB for engines manufactured after Jan 1991, 90dB for engines manufactured prior to this date. This is for stationary testing. The moving test ("A" scale, whatever that means) at 50 feet drops it to 82dB

http://boat-ed.com/nh/handbook/engequip.htm

I had it in my head that it was 86dB for some reason, glad I looked it up especially since my twin 4 stroke Honda outboards make so much noise...

Having been a past Baja owner with switchable exhaust, I find it crazy that it is outlawed, especially if when set on thru-hull it is already at a legal limit without having to divert down through the prop, which mine was.

[BroadHopper]

I know a number of classic wooden boats with no sound deadening devices. The are loud but with the sweet mellow 'flat head sound'. Do they ever get stop? Old man Foley with his 30's something raceboat goes out almost every morning with his 12 cylinder Packard singing. You can see the 12 'mega phones' sticking out the engine hatch. he's been doing this for decades. Never been pulled over.

Sweet sound to my ears.....................

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by codeman671

According to NH BoatEd it is 88dB for engines manufactured after Jan 1991, 90dB for engines manufactured prior to this date. This is for stationary testing. The moving test ("A" scale, whatever that means) at 50 feet drops it to 82dB

http://boat-ed.com/nh/handbook/engequip.htm

I had it in my head that it was 86dB for some reason, glad I looked it up especially since my twin 4 stroke Honda outboards make so much noise...

Having been a past Baja owner with switchable exhaust, I find it crazy that it is outlawed, especially if when set on thru-hull it is already at a legal limit without having to divert down through the prop, which mine was.

Most places that have noise limits use the standard 92 dBA level.. I found the 82 and 88 levels quite interesting. A quick check on Boattest.com revealed that an 18' Bayliner bowrider with a smaller outboard produced levels of 75 dBA to 98 dBA. I can understand the at idle limit of 88, which is pretty high actually. I agree that having a switchable exhaust makes for a much better experience for the majority of people in tight channels and smaller coves.

I remember hearing very loud boats, many of which were slow, decades ago on Winni.

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I remember hearing very loud boats, many of which were slow, decades ago on Winni.

I too fondly remember virtually all inboards built before the 1980’s and jet drives boats of the 1960’s & 1970’s had open above the waterline exhaust and they were not necessarily big and fast boats, all too often they were family boats and were under 20’

The 16’ – 20’ jets drive boats were quite popular right up to 1980 as they were billed as a safer option because they had no external propeller and they were almost all powered by big block Olds or Ford or Chevy engines that had big low restriction water-cooled aluminum exhaust manifolds and they would bellow loud and clear when you got on them and had the four carb opened up! Interestingly, most of them would not break 50 MPH on a good day,,, But they were very popular and never caused any commotion due to their sound that I know of,,,

So how does the owner of a classic 1970 Glastron 18’ jet boat respond to the noise law where there is no reasonable way to retrofit a marine muffler and/or a below the waterline exhaust? And clearly these boats are going to blow the dB limits at full throttle, but that’s just how they were manufactured.

It seems interesting to me that such boats were not a problem for over 60 years but now they are the worst thing since the invention of the power boat itself,,, I say again, what am I missing???

[LIforrelaxin]

So as this debate continues to go on. I decide to take a look at a few things first was the OSHA standards.... now in case anyone is wondering the 88db limit is probably derived from this... according to OSHA standards no hearing protection is needed for workers exposed to less then 90 db per 8 hour day.... In short a boat could sit a idle and you sit right next to it all day long and there should be no problems... Now if you chose to sit next to it that is your problem.

The higher the DB level the shorter the exposure time is the chart I looked at broke it all the way down to 15 mins at 115db....

Now why do things get mentioned on the A-scale... A is simple the musical tone that a sound meter is looking at. A sound meter listening to noises in the A spectrum has an equivalent overall noise db level.

So that covers the idling test....

Now as for the flyby test.... I haven't gotten to the bottom of that one yet...but once again I am sure it is routed in some fact that over the course of 50' sound should drop by X db.... and as long as a boat is with in the spec. there should never be a case where a boat is at full song and less then 50 feet away.... If I find the information on sound fall off I will pass it on...

Oh and just incase people want to read the OSHA std:

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...ards&p_id=9735

Now as for my second point, which I am sure is where the fly by spec came from was to look at what the db level of some ordinary things are...such as a normal conversation 60db... a refrigerator running 40 db, vacuum cleaner 70 db, and Heavy traffic 85 db.....

just google db levels and you be amazed what you find.

In short as long as a boat is legal.... If you find the sound to much then I hope you don't run your vacuum, or allow an normal conversation to take place while you at the lake.

[Sman]

It seems interesting to me that such boats were not a problem for over 60 years but now they are the worst thing since the invention of the power boat itself

-Good Point

To Sunset on the Dock, I understand wanting to enjoy a quite evening on the water so I am not busting you here. Maybe I am wrong, but it sounds like you looked out and saw and heard as you said a 25' boat, and I am filling in the rest of the description... newer Deep-V style, what is so often described as a Go Fast Boat.

If so, I just want to know honestly if you had looked out to see what the noise was and saw an old wooden, say Christ Craft speed boat, would you have had the same reaction or made the post. I ask because we live near an area that a lot of older wooden boats are run on a regular basis and they are equally as loud. Some of them I know are rigged with 12 and 16 cylinder engines believe it or not and some do over 70, even the majority of the ones with 8 are quite loud.

Maybe it would have felt more like On Golden Pond and Less Like Miami Vice?
Just asking

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Sman

-Good Point

To Sunset on the Dock, I understand wanting to enjoy a quite evening on the water so I am not busting you here. Maybe I am wrong, but it sounds like you looked out and saw and heard as you said a 25' boat, and I am filling in the rest of the description... newer Deep-V style, what is so often described as a Go Fast Boat.

If so, I just want to know honestly if you had looked out to see what the noise was and saw an old wooden, say Christ Craft speed boat, would you have had the same reaction or made the post. I ask because we live near an area that a lot of older wooden boats are run on a regular basis and they are equally as loud. Some of them I know are rigged with 12 and 16 cylinder engines believe it or not and some do over 70, even the majority of the ones with 8 are quite loud.

Maybe it would have felt more like On Golden Pond and Less Like Miami Vice?
Just asking

Actually that is the point I think I was trying to make and you did it much better!

And I too am not looking to point fingers at any one or rag on them, just trying to understand the disconnect between what was and what is and what its a problem now,,,

[MAXUM]

Some subjects sure do hit a nerve, while some say discussions like this have no business on such a forum, I actually disagree. Provided everyone is being at least civil to one another, having a healthy and maybe at times somewhat heated debate on such issues is a good thing.

I think the problem here is not a loud boat. Rather it's that some appear, whether intentional or not, to have a total disregard for others when it comes to what they consider to be fun. It is impossible to have a civilized society when there are those who insist on engaging in behavior that has a direct and detrimental impact on others. What gives anyone the "right" to do that? Any number of examples can be used to prove this point, and nit picking one thing or the other is not really productive. Instead I'd simply point out that since we all share the lake, why not do so in a manner where we are considerate of others? Does that mean no loud boats? Nah common that's not really fair, but for those that do knowingly operate one why not have enough consideration to have one that is reasonable in the amount of noise pollution it spews along with where and in what manner it's being operated as not to ruin the enjoyment of others as well. The failure of some to understand this is what has lead to legislative action to curb this behavior and like it or not once the laws are on the books you can bet they will begin to further restrict what we are "allowed" to do. Nobody wants that but let's face it folks, the only reason why many of these laws are passed is because somebody somewhere did something stupid and the knee jerk reaction is for the nanny state to write more laws. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and don't give anyone the excuse to complain. Will there be those that are such zealots that they will never be happy? Sure but who the hell cares what they have to say, as I would like to think we are all civilized people here.

As a disclaimer... I'll admit I am not a fan of performance boats. That is my opinion and I'm entitled to that opinion, HOWEVER does that mean they should be restricted from being on the lake? The answer is no. It's extremely unfair to lump everyone that owns one into a single category and say they are all "bad" when if you really look at it honestly we're only talking about a handful of bad apples. There are those who are very outspoken on this forum who enjoy them and clearly do have consideration for others (and for that I commend you). For those of us that may not like them, we say have consideration for others... however isn't it hypocritical to say that, but at the same time not give those that like these things to have the chance to pursue what they enjoy provided it is done so in a responsible way?

There I have said my piece, for what it's worth!!

[VtSteve]

Excellent post Maxum.

(SMAN, of course the answer would be NoooooooooooWaaaaaaaaaaaaay) Had a very long, new-age type of woody boat pull up at the gas dock while we were in NY. It sounded like a 3-engine, 50' Mystic with a gazillion horsepower. Couldn't make out the name. The second noisiest, and The most irritating boat at my marina is a sailboat. If you can imagine a sound (rhymes with dart), hooked up to a 5000 watt amplifier and muddled through a bath tub, that's the boat

Obviously, everyone has differing opinions and tolerances for everything, and noises have been at the leading edge of frustration or devotion since Paul Bunyan made so much noise in a deserted forest. (Yes, I was there observing).

But noise is noise, and yes Sman, you are right on to point out an obvious difference in what's pointed out by some.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Sman

-Good Point

Some of them I know are rigged with 12 and 16 cylinder engines believe it or not and some do over 70, even the majority of the ones with 8 are quite loud.

No disrespect to this poster but there is a lot of BS going on out there as to what people Think They Know about what's going on out there on the lake. If there were a half dozen 12 cylinder engines out there on the lake I would be surprised. Trust me Gentlemen.. There are NO 16 cylinder engines running around the lake... Willy Nilly. JUST SAYIN. NB

[Bajaboxer]

I happen to know Dhuberty24 and he recently purchased a Whaler to use past 9pm as to not bother his neighbors. He spent a couple thousand bucks to appease your wants and yet he still has to deal with complaints like this. When you were enjoying your cocktail this past weekend and heard his boat, it was 8pm. Maybe you can try to remember back 20 years when you were a bit younger and enjoyed the thrill of a GFLB more than a cocktail and a sunset. We all have likes/dislikes, annoyances, opinions, etc., but to complain in order to push for laws further restricting our rights as human beings is causing more problems and dislike amongst eachother than good. For now it's the speed limit, and maybe in the future it'll be to lower the noise level of boats. What's next? Maybe it'll be something that impacts you directly and I'm willing to bet if someone chooses to complain about it on a public forum, you might get a bit annoyed and fight back. And you may even spell a few words wrong.

[Sman]

If there were a half dozen 12 cylinder engines out there on the lake I would be surprised.

Right but they are out there.

As far as the 16, I was at a Weirs Antique boat show a few yrs ago and was looking at a boat with a big engine and was told by the guy in the boat that it was a 16 cylinder Allison Engine (Allison Aircraft Engine).

Loud was the point

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Sman

Right but they are out there.

As far as the 16, I was at a Weirs Antique boat show a few yrs ago and was looking at a boat with a big engine and was told by the guy in the boat that it was a 16 cylinder Allison Engine (Allison Aircraft Engine).

Loud was the point

There is only ONE boat out there with a 16 cylinder engine..The name of the boat is Ethyl Ruth IV. It is an antique raceboat. The engine was a 16 cylinder supercharged Miller engine. (One of THREE built for marine use.) On very rare occasions he shows up at antique boat shows with that engine installed. Almost always..the boat has a 502 CI V8 substitute installed. The Miller is just too Rare and Valuable to run routinely.

Allison aircraft V-1710s.. were V12s. They were used in the WWII P-38s as well as early P-51s...and a number of others. Allison never made a 16 cylinder engine. ....NB

[Martha Marlee]

I also happen to know Dhuberty24- and he is usually headed to my camp in his load boat & we LOVE it!! He’s one of a few that sit at our dock. Yes were part of the go fast, be load crowed…….there nothing like the sound of & smell of exhaust in the morning…ahhhhhh
He has made an effort to be respectful to all our neighbors taking his smaller boat later in the night & I'm willing to bet he's a better captain then most
Everyone needs to stop complaining & get on w. life…..take care brush your hair

[gtxrider]

This thread makes me think of the people that buy a home next to airport and then complain about the noise. Hey want quite don't live by a lake that has big boats.

Again, it all depends on one's point of view what is noise to some is music to others.

How many hours was that noisy boat there?

[pm203]

This whole thread was started by a major league complainer. You cannot make sense of it, so don't try. It is obvious he cannot be made happy untill every selfish personal preference of his has been satisfied. Its all about him and it will always be. Of course he will try and cover his ways by telling you its about safety or its about the preservation of the lake.These are smoke screens to cover his real goals. Goals that only appeal to a select demented few. So, just let it go. You can't reason with the unreasonable.

[Turtle Boy]

Take heed, those who might be willing to ignore what others on the lake might find offensive, inappropriate, and inconsiderate. Noise indeed was what brought us to our present state of legislative affairs on the lake. And as stated earlier, stay sober as speed or excessive noise might be what gets you pulled over or reported.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Noise indeed was what brought us to our present state of legislative affairs on the lake.

What about safety? I recall somebody mentioning something about safety bringing us to our present state of legislative affairs? So confused

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by Ryan

What about safety? I recall somebody mentioning something about safety bringing us to our present state of legislative affairs? So confused

It's the "agenda of the day" concept". Changes with the wind. Kind of like a blue plate special at a restaurant.

[LIforrelaxin]

So as I started to spread some facts into this discussion yesterday I though I would finish today... I did a little more looking around to day and found the information I was looking for related to the fly by sound reading and it basis at 50 feet... what I found was this... for a given distance if you increase your distance by that same amount away from a given noise source you decrease the source level by 6 db... hence at 50 ft... you can calculate a 12 db loss at 150 ft. And with the 150 ft rule no boat should be operating at speed closer then 150 feet from you.

Now with a 82 db requirement on a fly by pass at 50 feet... you can see that at 150 feet the sound should be down to 70 db at 150 ft.... Mathematically speaking of course.... now from my previous post... that puts us at the same db level as a normal conversation between two adults doesn't it... hummm even quieter then the traffic in Meredith on the weekends for all that matters....

Now on to some other points here... we are talking about db... sound pressure folks... its what causes the damage... to the ear drums... now how loud something appears is a different story all together, and depends on many many factors... such as... distance, dampening material between you and the device... room for echo.... other ambient noises at the time, etc. etc.....

These folks are the facts of the situation.... If a boat is legal... there is nothing to complain about... Because if you complain about the noise of the boats... you better complain, about the traffic in Meredith, your conversations in your yard... The vacuum cleaner, and your radio.... most people listen to their radio at a db level of around 70 - 80 dbs.....

So here is the deal... There is a existing law... it is sound in more then one way according to everything I can find... If you feel someone has a boat that doesn't conform to the law, talk to the Marine Patrol, they will investigate. Just remember the next time your out on your dock talking in the boat... your neighbor just down the shore front may call the police on you for making to much noise.

[MAXUM]

Now I won't even begin to suggest I'm an expert on the subject here, but to your point LIforrelaxin...

I'll generalize here and say that anything that is capable of making noise would thus be measurable at any particular distance which is what laws stipulate depending on what it is you're talking about. Perception of how loud they are can be relative, and in some cases depending on the situation actually may appear to be magnified. Case in point, look at the hat shell in Boston or my favorite Red Rocks in Colorado. These places one made made, the other God made have acoustical properties that appear to magnify sound. So while from a pure db perspective the noise levels may be considered acceptable in certain cases they could "appear" to be far worse. That is something that the law can't address so it is what it is and certainly not anything the operator of a boat can control. Good bad or indifferent, it's my best stab at a "very" scientific observation based on absolutely no scientific knowledge or theory in said discipline. .... it just sounds good to me!

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Now I won't even begin to suggest I'm an expert on the subject here, but to your point LIforrelaxin...

I'll generalize here and say that anything that is capable of making noise would thus be measurable at any particular distance which is what laws stipulate depending on what it is you're talking about. Perception of how loud they are can be relative, and in some cases depending on the situation actually may appear to be magnified. Case in point, look at the hat shell in Boston or my favorite Red Rocks in Colorado. These places one made made, the other God made have acoustical properties that appear to magnify sound. So while from a pure db perspective the noise levels may be considered acceptable in certain cases they could "appear" to be far worse. That is something that the law can't address so it is what it is and certainly not anything the operator of a boat can control. Good bad or indifferent, it's my best stab at a "very" scientific observation based on absolutely no scientific knowledge or theory in said discipline. .... it just sounds good to me!

Maxxum,

You bring up a good point, which is why the law is written the way it is. And why a boat exhaust must be a fixed apparatus. The Marine Patrol can test a boat, record what the system design is... and then if they come back to the boat do to an issue in the future they can look at the system, verify nothing has changed, and either say the boat has been previously been tested and is ok... or say, the system has changed and the boat needs to be retested. By not allowing any switching in the system there is no question as to how the boat was running.

Now as for your acoustical reference to the hat shell and Red Rock, this is not acoustical amplification... The only way to get more power is to add more power. Both venues how ever focus the sound and project it in a direction.... Because the sound is projected correctly in these venues the required input sound to create the projected output is much less then in venues such as the Comcast Center or Meadow Brook.... where the sound is simply released into the air. These venues don't Produce louder sounds they just require less amplified input to deliver the required sound. They are also both acoustically sound meaning that they project the complete sound spectrum and don't absorb part of it thus project another area unfairly.

Now what happens in a boat... or with the cry of a loon is that sound is echo across the water much like it is in a canyon... the water is a hard surface and the sound just travels along it, until it hits something that absorbs it. Such as other sound waves, the shoreline, etc. The reason a single boat all by itself sounds so much louder then multiple boats on a busy day, is that the single set of noise waves travel further with out getting disturbed or canceled out.

Folks once again do some research this information is all available quite easily... Bottom line once again there is an already appropriate law on the books that fully handles the situation and is completely adequate... If you think you have a problem... report it...

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

So as I started to spread some facts into this discussion yesterday I though I would finish today... I did a little more looking around to day and found the information I was looking for related to the fly by sound reading and it basis at 50 feet... what I found was this... for a given distance if you increase your distance by that same amount away from a given noise source you decrease the source level by 6 db... hence at 50 ft... you can calculate a 12 db loss at 150 ft. And with the 150 ft rule no boat should be operating at speed closer then 150 feet from you.

Now with a 82 db requirement on a fly by pass at 50 feet... you can see that at 150 feet the sound should be down to 70 db at 150 ft.... Mathematically speaking of course.... now from my previous post... that puts us at the same db level as a normal conversation between two adults doesn't it... hummm even quieter then the traffic in Meredith on the weekends for all that matters....

Now on to some other points here... we are talking about db... sound pressure folks... its what causes the damage... to the ear drums... now how loud something appears is a different story all together, and depends on many many factors... such as... distance, dampening material between you and the device... room for echo.... other ambient noises at the time, etc. etc.....

These folks are the facts of the situation.... If a boat is legal... there is nothing to complain about... Because if you complain about the noise of the boats... you better complain, about the traffic in Meredith, your conversations in your yard... The vacuum cleaner, and your radio.... most people listen to their radio at a db level of around 70 - 80 dbs.....

So here is the deal... There is a existing law... it is sound in more then one way according to everything I can find... If you feel someone has a boat that doesn't conform to the law, talk to the Marine Patrol, they will investigate. Just remember the next time your out on your dock talking in the boat... your neighbor just down the shore front may call the police on you for making to much noise.

Here's another factor that most people are not aware of, even as a HONDA CIVIC comes tooling up the street toward you... (Actually it's a Self Propelled Sub Woofer.) The Doppler Effect makes sound measurement even more difficult to reliably deal with. NB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_Effect

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Turtle Boy

Take heed, those who might be willing to ignore what others on the lake might find offensive, inappropriate, and inconsiderate. Noise indeed was what brought us to our present state of legislative affairs on the lake. And as stated earlier, stay sober as speed or excessive noise might be what gets you pulled over or reported.

There are countless things that may get you pulled over on the lake.

Staying sober on the lake is every boater's responsibility whether they captain the Mount, a performance boat, or a kayak.

[Skip]

I have to agree 100% with Mink Islander's post. Unfortunately his response has now been buried by the repetitious point-counterpoint of several that have repeatedly stated their positions here and in countless other threads.

Here's a suggestion.

While it is apparent that there are several independent thinkers posting here, the vast opinion shared has either come from the SBONH or WINNFABS corner.

The sad thing?

Neither organization has seen fit to keep their websites up to date or more importantly provide an open forum on their sites to allow this discussion to occur on their respective dime.

Nope, both organizations have opted to camp out, free of charge, on Don's door step.

I would respectfully ask that both organizations at a minimum update their respective websites. Then I would hope to see that both organizations implement a comments section on their sites and take this and the veiled but continual speed limits discussions over there.

How about it?

[OCDACTIVE]

Skip,

Sent you a PM

[Joe Kerr]

Originally Posted by Skip

I have to agree 100% with Mink Islander's post. Unfortunately his response has now been buried by the repetitious point-counterpoint of several that have repeatedly stated their positions here and in countless other threads. {snip SBONH vs WINNFABS}
I would respectfully ask that both organizations at a minimum update their respective websites. Then I would hope to see that both organizations implement a comments section on their sites and take this and the veiled but continual speed limits discussions over there.

Excellent points Skip. Repetitious sometimes ridiculous posts smothering the real issues and topics. I perceive that the sides are represented loosely by groups. One is older and more practiced at trying to rationalize their agenda while the other group formed more recently to try to show the fallacies of some propaganda. The former seems to think that the more times and ways they say something the more true it appears. They try to bury and discredit posts by those who like it the way it was. It is very sad how a handful of fabulous people can change the whole complexion of Don's web site.

I'm also 100% with you on updating web pages. Both of the groups mentioned should be current and keep their web presence up to date (as should those green map makers but that's another story also involving speed limit information).

For the record, I don't like very loud boats, cycles, sound systems etc. But there are sound laws in place for that and I put up with the legal noise. Meadowbrook concerts keep me awake at night and I hate it. I do not have a go fast boat but am not troubled by those that do. There were pre-SL laws (150' rule and others) in place to deal with those concerns too. I'm very tired of plodding through almost endless rhetoric to get to the good and meaningful posts.

Thanks Skip. Ever thought of being an arbitrator?

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by Sman

-Good Point

To Sunset on the Dock, I understand wanting to enjoy a quite evening on the water so I am not busting you here. Maybe I am wrong, but it sounds like you looked out and saw and heard as you said a 25' boat, and I am filling in the rest of the description... newer Deep-V style, what is so often described as a Go Fast Boat.

If so, I just want to know honestly if you had looked out to see what the noise was and saw an old wooden, say Christ Craft speed boat, would you have had the same reaction or made the post. I ask because we live near an area that a lot of older wooden boats are run on a regular basis and they are equally as loud. Some of them I know are rigged with 12 and 16 cylinder engines believe it or not and some do over 70, even the majority of the ones with 8 are quite loud.

Maybe it would have felt more like On Golden Pond and Less Like Miami Vice?
Just asking

Been close to 24 hours and no answer to your question. Why am I not surprised?