Is the lake any Safer then it was 10 years ago

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by That Guy

No, I got his point. I see it happen when I'm out with my Dad all the time. People telling him where to go, checks the map, and continues driving the direction he was.

As far as the color of the buoys go, I've always just referred to the maps.

Reading here:
http://www.duncanpressinc.com/buoys3.htm



I kind of worded it wrong. Not that the colors have no significance, but there just seems to be too many exceptions to the buoys. The moment I get concerned, I slow my speed and refer to the map.

Please refer to this document when wondering what the bouys mean...

There are 4 navigational New Hampshire specific spars:

https://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire...on-System-ATON

New Hampshire’s Spar Buoys

Vessels operating on New Hampshire waters must observe these rules when encountering spar buoys.

All Black

This buoy marks one side of a well-defined channel. Go between it and its companion “all red” spar buoy.

All Red

This buoy marks one side of a well-defined channel. Go between it and its companion “all black” spar buoy.

White with Red Top

If heading east or west, go south of this buoy. If heading north or south, go west of this buoy.

White with Black Top

If heading east or west, go north of this buoy. If heading north or south, go east of this buoy.


I keep this in mind, and have not found an instance where they have failed me. While I have a map, and reference it... I also think through my heading and positioning All marker on the lake that I have encountered make sense if I follow the above rules.

[That Guy]

Sorry for the large image:



I see two instances where you don't go between the black and "its companion “all red” spar buoy".

Its the little coves that mess me up. I've been on the lake for eight years now, but really only started navigating for the past two. So I'm no veteran at this, but so far this has been my experience.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by That Guy

Sorry for the large image:



I see two instances where you don't go between the black and "its companion “all red” spar buoy".

Its the little coves that mess me up. I've been on the lake for eight years now, but really only started navigating for the past two. So I'm no veteran at this, but so far this has been my experience.

There are no all red spars in the picture you posted. All the spars in the picture are white with black tops or white with red tops and require no companion spar.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by Dave R

There are no all red spars in the picture you posted. All the spars in the picture are white with black tops or white with red tops and require no companion spar.

I don't like the Duncan map. Way too busy, and all the numbers are, to me, useless.

I can see how someone would mistake the markers on the map for all red and all black spar buoys.

A look at the "six pack" or "the graveyard" on Duncan's map would, I hope, give a far different look at the all red and all black spars.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Please refer to this document when wondering what the bouys mean...

There are 4 navigational New Hampshire specific spars:

https://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire...on-System-ATON

New Hampshire’s Spar Buoys

Vessels operating on New Hampshire waters must observe these rules when encountering spar buoys.

All Black

This buoy marks one side of a well-defined channel. Go between it and its companion “all red” spar buoy.

All Red

This buoy marks one side of a well-defined channel. Go between it and its companion “all black” spar buoy.

White with Red Top

If heading east or west, go south of this buoy. If heading north or south, go west of this buoy.

White with Black Top

If heading east or west, go north of this buoy. If heading north or south, go east of this buoy.


I keep this in mind, and have not found an instance where they have failed me. While I have a map, and reference it... I also think through my heading and positioning All marker on the lake that I have encountered make sense if I follow the above rules.

LIforrelaxin

Again I agree with you ..... this is scary (twice in the same morning.)

However, there are a few markers that would have even a seasoned operator double check the chart ...... and yes, it does matter from which direction and more specifically what ANGLE you approach them ..... the first of these that comes immediately to mind is black top FL#30

Although not paired with the black top / red top combo just NE of it (edge of Bear isl) visually as you approach it would appear that you are about to split two Black Tops (a NO NO).

The Black top just off the SW edge of Treasure is another.

BUT - your point is valid -- 99% of the time they are quite easy if you know your compass.

When in doubt -- Always use the Chart ..... 30+ years and I am not embarrassed to pull it out


.

[Woodsy]

LI...

I think the Lake as a whole is a VERY safe place. That being said there is some room for improvement.

1. The 150' rule needs to be taught a little differently. Its a great rule, BUT... VERY few people can accurately judge distance on the water. People need to calm down a little! This rule needs to be looked at in spirit of why it was written... its more of a guideline. Just stay a good distance away from another boat while on plane. I don't get to worried about it unless they get within an a few boat lengths (50' or so). NH is the only state that has this rule regarding boat vs boat situation.

2. Understanding the Basics of Navigation... The Boater safety course covers it, but nobody pays attention to it. There should be an emphasis on ROW and crossing situations.... As I explained to my GF... you have red and green lights on your boat for a REASON!

3. ROW to skiers & tubers... I agree that people need to give more room, BUT the people tubing and skiing need to recognize that doing those activities in the middle of a busy area is not really a smart thing to do... Last year saw a family pulling kids on a tube... IN THE MIDDLE OF MEREDITH BAY! Ummm... hello???

4. You cant fix stupid....

5. See #1 above

6. I came around to being a big supporter of a nighttime limit. Although I still think the daytime 45 limit is absurd. I don't see the MP being Draconian about enforcement. If they do, you can expect a push for change...

Woodsy

[Rusty]

Couldn't help but yawn when reading this thread.

[8gv]

Is it better?

I can't say.

Do the rules help?

Every person who follows the rules helps a little.

No society has everyone following all the rules all the time.

The MP cannot be everywhere all the time. There just isn't enough staffing.

One suggestion I will make to the MP is this:

If you stop someone for an infraction and you see another boat committing a more serious infraction, hand the first captain a rule book, tell him to behave and then go get the second boat. This assumes that boat #1 is not piloted by a drunk person.

Several times I've seen a boat stopped by the MP with othe boats blasting past 75' away. It's as if they feel imune to MP action because the MP is busy.

[Bear Islander]

I can't say the lake is safer than 10 years ago. However I can't say it is less safe either. About the same from my point of view. I would be interested to see MP statistics on that.

Is the lake available to the citizens that own it is a question more to the point.

Do swimmers, kayaks, canoes, sailboats, aircraft, powerboats etc. all get reasonable access to this limited public resource? Are water quality, tourism, fishing, and wildlife being protected? Are environmental laws, waterfront development and erosion under control?

For the most part I would say, Yes.

This is what the speed limit was really about. The opposition never understood that.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Do swimmers, kayaks, canoes, sailboats, aircraft, powerboats etc. all get reasonable access to this limited public resource? Are water quality, tourism, fishing, and wildlife being protected? Are environmental laws, waterfront development and erosion under control?
This is what the speed limit was really about. The opposition never understood that.

I was led to believe it was all about safety for the children's camps.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by DEJ

I was led to believe it was all about safety for the children's camps.

The ability of children's camps to safely access a crowded lake with their small craft is a personal concern of mine. During my summers as a camp director I had this problem.

Children's camps were never a central issue for speed limit supporters. They had little or nothing to do with the speed limit being enacted.

Speed limit opponents concentrated almost all their efforts on the safety issue. That is a main reason why they lost. For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource was #1.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Children's camps were never a central issue for speed limit supporters. They had little or nothing to do with the speed limit being enacted.

Speed limit opponents concentrated almost all their efforts on the safety issue. That is a main reason why they lost. For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource was #1.

Interesting.I was certainly in the middle of that whole debate from the begining and never remember this "For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource was #1" having anything to do with it.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Interesting.I was certainly in the middle of that whole debate from the begining and never remember this "For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource was #1" having anything to do with it.

You don't remember arguments about where kayaks and canoes should operate? About increasing numbers of high performance boats? About people afraid of a growing "cowboy" atmosphere?

I do.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You don't remember arguments about where kayaks and canoes should operate? About increasing numbers of high performance boats? About people afraid of a growing "cowboy" atmosphere?

I do.

The cowboys are still there despite the new laws. Proponents insist the cowboys were the performance boaters yet today we can prove they are wrong. Like I say even today the lake is like the wild west on seasonal weekends. The laws have not made the lake safer. I feel saver on Winnisquam on weekends on my kayak than I do on Winnipesaukee. Does that means Winnisquam needs more laws?

[VitaBene]

The Lake is a very safe place given the size and use it gets.

We also need to be realistic- we all have friends that we enjoy being a passenger with and friends that we prefer to host on our boats! Just like on the road, one can have years of experience and still not be a great driver. Unfortunately, we share the lake with some people who don't truly understand basic navigation rules, skippers who don't know when they are stand on or give way and the responsibility each captain has. I have taught my kids to operate confidently but defensively!

Safe boating!!

Jason, that is a nice concise explanation of the buoys

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

The Lake is a very safe place given the size and use it gets.

I fully agree with this statement....... I have always been surprised that there aren't more problems, given the use of the lake during the peak season.

[Resident 2B]

My opinion is the lake is LESS safe during warm weather weekends and MORE safe during weekdays than it was ten years ago. This has to do with the law that was designed to remove fast boats from the lake. I believe the less educated boating public feel safer because of the law regulating speed is now in effect, so they come out in droves on the weekends. They are the "me first" crowd and have very limited knowledge of navigation including the 150' rule, who the stand-on vessel is and the operational requirements of the give-way vessel. This has made warm weather weekends a mess in the busy areas.

I have given up boating on the lake because of these "weekend warriors". I had a place near the Weirs. Too much chaos for me on weekends, so I have moved on. I never had a fast boat, just a 28' bow rider that I really loved. Anyone thinking that law helped things is in their own little dream world.

R2B

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

You don't remember arguments about where kayaks and canoes should operate? About increasing numbers of high performance boats? About people afraid of a growing "cowboy" atmosphere?
I do.

Thats "For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource"?
I guess I don't see how this speed limit has given us this "fair and equal access for canoes and kayaks" that you speak of.So I assume you think its now fine for canoes and kayaks to operate anywhere on the lake?
The debate and results don't look much different today than they did before this law was passed.I dont see how this speed limit gave fair and equal access.

[WJT2]

The NEWS has never failed me. It is printed black and white and must be read(red). SO, Black and White stay North or East, Red and White stay West or South. Channel Bouys are square, and solid colors pass between North/East South or South/West navigation rule still applies. The key to operating on the Lake is knowledge of compass direction without a compass. If in doubt SLOW DOWN. The navigational explanation given by "LIforrelaxin" is spot on.
Happy Boating.

[BroadHopper]

My Dad and my grandfather uses Red Hill as North on Winnipesaukee. Still true today. Just think, Red Hill=North.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Thats "For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource"?
I guess I don't see how this speed limit has given us this "fair and equal access for canoes and kayaks" that you speak of.So I assume you think its now fine for canoes and kayaks to operate anywhere on the lake?
The debate and results don't look much different today than they did before this law was passed.I dont see how this speed limit gave fair and equal access.

The speed limit has held in check the number of power boats, and in particular the number of performance boats. Without a speed limit their numbers would have continued to increase.

Canoes and Kayaks can operate anywhere on the lake. They always have, and always will, have full reign on the lake.

Under certain weather conditions operating small boats on certain parts of the lake may be unwise. However I would remind you Whitewater Kayaking is an Olympic Sport.

However if you are implying that Kayaks should be restricted from certain areas because they might be run over by a powerboat.. Well that idea is absurd.

[Woodsy]

The go-fast boats are still here... and with the economy turning around and gas being cheaper you will see them more often. I personally only know of 1-2 people who treaded in their go-fast for cabin cruisers... they don't go fast anymore, but its yet another BIG wake on the lake!

To most people who have the $$ to own and operate the bigger go-fast boats usually own companies... and most of those companies took a hard hit with economy being in the tank. More than few lost a lot of $$ when the real estate market took a hit as well. Then add in gas prices over $5 gal for Super...

You will see more of us out there.... I for one never left! I MHO the daytime speed limit has done nothing....

Woodsy

[8gv]

About the kayaks and canoes...

They are often hard to see.

A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them.

I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go.

BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from?

Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by 8gv

About the kayaks and canoes...They are often hard to see. A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them. I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go.
BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from? Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.

I don't understand the statement "We can't see kayaks". Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull—from pontoon boats only?

As it is written elsewhere, "ApS loves to harass others about safe boating".

But the bottom line is: A boat operator should, at all times, "Keep a Proper Watch".

As for slowing down, according to the Coast Guard, "Keeping a Proper Watch" includes manned vessels that are adrift.



As for being safer, that's difficult to measure, especially as the scofflaws are still exceeding the SL. The primary place to see this would be between Rattlesnake Island and Diamond Island—heading north on sunny days.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

I don't understand the statement "We can't see kayaks". Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull—from pontoon boats only?

"About the kayaks and canoes...They are often hard to see." hardly equates to "we can't see kayaks".

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

I Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull

I bet that for every boat with a "polished hull" that a family owns, they have 3 or more scuffed and scratched rowboats, canoes, kayaks, or sailboats (ours is a Laser)!!

[Webbsatwinni]

Originally Posted by ApS

As for being safer, that's difficult to measure, especially as the scofflaws are still exceeding the SL. The primary place to see this would be between Rattlesnake Island and Diamond Island—heading north on sunny days.

That is a very small area, does anyone have a video of these so called scofflaws?

The other point not raised, was the Kayak hit near Rattlesnake last year due to speed? Was the captain a scofflaw? Was his boat polished?

[CrownRay]

I actaully feel safer on Boston Harbor, than I do anywhere on the lake on a busy weekend. I have been boating on the lake for almost 30 years. I would say, the one BIG change is all the PWC's (not that I am against them, they are a blast). Alot of them have no regard to the rules. Granted, alot of them are in fact renters, who spend half an hour on a website to pass a quiz. Thats enough to get them the keys, and away they go!

And yes, there are always the morons on the boat. I was comming back from Center Harbor the other day. You know that section where the 4 markers are...well, there was about 4 of us steaming through. All of the sudden, there was the water's version of a break check! The idot in front of me decides "Oh, this looks like a nice narrow busy channel. What a perfect place to slow down without warning, and consult my chart!" Argh!

Later that night, about 9PM I am on my deck at BCI and I see what I think is a boat. It's steaming full bore, twords the bridge...NO running lights at all..nothing!

So, maybe as a weary 15 year old 30 years ago, I did not notice all of this stuff, but it just seems the lake is more like highway during rush hour...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by CrownRay

And yes, there are always the morons on the boat. I was comming back from Center Harbor the other day. You know that section where the 4 markers are...well, there was about 4 of us steaming through. All of the sudden, there was the water's version of a break check! The idot in front of me decides "Oh, this looks like a nice narrow busy channel. What a perfect place to slow down without warning, and consult my chart!" Argh!

I see that a few times a year, mostly on weekends. It's annoying. I'm the guy that throttles up and overtakes people long before getting to a choke point (when I can). I know I won't be slowing them down and perhaps (assuming they don't know the correct course through said choke point) they'll assume I know where I'm going and follow me through without stopping to look at their chart I like to be part of the solution, not the problem.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by 8gv

About the kayaks and canoes...

They are often hard to see.

A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them. I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go. BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from? Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.

"...hard to see...?"



Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

"...hard to see...?"

Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).

That picture may be representative of what the caption of the Mount will see, but that is not the issue being discussed. When you are in a boat just a couple feet over the top of the water, it is hard to see kayaks. Sun presents a challenge, and waves also present a challenge. Not to mention other boats that may be between you and the kayak.

[noreast]

Originally Posted by ApS

"...hard to see...?"



Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).

So, if you don't understand the difference point of view will make, your posts don't mean much. If you do understand the difference and your just dishonest in order to make a point, then your posts mean nothing.

[Phantom]

I promised myself that I wasn't going to get baited into this thread ...................... BUT .................looks foggy as hell in that photo ...... wonder how long you waited for the fog to lift off them to grab this shot !


and that's a telephoto lense --- let's take a peak at say 500- 1,000 yds

.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I promised myself that I wasn't going to get baited into this thread ...................... BUT .................looks foggy as hell in that photo ...... wonder how long you waited for the fog to lift off them to grab this shot !

As anyone can see by the clearness of the opposite shoreline, the weather was not foggy at all.

Overcast, yes.

Polaroid​® sunglasses would give more contrast, and would have helped to bring out the colors in the same group of kayaks.

Originally Posted by Phantom

...and that's a telephoto lense --- let's take a peak at say 500- 1,000 yds.

'Best I could do is a peak five miles away.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.