Is the lake any Safer then it was 10 years ago

[8gv]

About the kayaks and canoes...

They are often hard to see.

A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them.

I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go.

BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from?

Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by 8gv

About the kayaks and canoes...They are often hard to see. A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them. I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go.
BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from? Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.

I don't understand the statement "We can't see kayaks". Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull—from pontoon boats only?

As it is written elsewhere, "ApS loves to harass others about safe boating".

But the bottom line is: A boat operator should, at all times, "Keep a Proper Watch".

As for slowing down, according to the Coast Guard, "Keeping a Proper Watch" includes manned vessels that are adrift.



As for being safer, that's difficult to measure, especially as the scofflaws are still exceeding the SL. The primary place to see this would be between Rattlesnake Island and Diamond Island—heading north on sunny days.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

I don't understand the statement "We can't see kayaks". Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull—from pontoon boats only?

"About the kayaks and canoes...They are often hard to see." hardly equates to "we can't see kayaks".

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

I Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull

I bet that for every boat with a "polished hull" that a family owns, they have 3 or more scuffed and scratched rowboats, canoes, kayaks, or sailboats (ours is a Laser)!!

[Webbsatwinni]

Originally Posted by ApS

As for being safer, that's difficult to measure, especially as the scofflaws are still exceeding the SL. The primary place to see this would be between Rattlesnake Island and Diamond Island—heading north on sunny days.

That is a very small area, does anyone have a video of these so called scofflaws?

The other point not raised, was the Kayak hit near Rattlesnake last year due to speed? Was the captain a scofflaw? Was his boat polished?

[CrownRay]

I actaully feel safer on Boston Harbor, than I do anywhere on the lake on a busy weekend. I have been boating on the lake for almost 30 years. I would say, the one BIG change is all the PWC's (not that I am against them, they are a blast). Alot of them have no regard to the rules. Granted, alot of them are in fact renters, who spend half an hour on a website to pass a quiz. Thats enough to get them the keys, and away they go!

And yes, there are always the morons on the boat. I was comming back from Center Harbor the other day. You know that section where the 4 markers are...well, there was about 4 of us steaming through. All of the sudden, there was the water's version of a break check! The idot in front of me decides "Oh, this looks like a nice narrow busy channel. What a perfect place to slow down without warning, and consult my chart!" Argh!

Later that night, about 9PM I am on my deck at BCI and I see what I think is a boat. It's steaming full bore, twords the bridge...NO running lights at all..nothing!

So, maybe as a weary 15 year old 30 years ago, I did not notice all of this stuff, but it just seems the lake is more like highway during rush hour...

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by CrownRay

And yes, there are always the morons on the boat. I was comming back from Center Harbor the other day. You know that section where the 4 markers are...well, there was about 4 of us steaming through. All of the sudden, there was the water's version of a break check! The idot in front of me decides "Oh, this looks like a nice narrow busy channel. What a perfect place to slow down without warning, and consult my chart!" Argh!

I see that a few times a year, mostly on weekends. It's annoying. I'm the guy that throttles up and overtakes people long before getting to a choke point (when I can). I know I won't be slowing them down and perhaps (assuming they don't know the correct course through said choke point) they'll assume I know where I'm going and follow me through without stopping to look at their chart I like to be part of the solution, not the problem.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by 8gv

About the kayaks and canoes...

They are often hard to see.

A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them. I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go. BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from? Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.

"...hard to see...?"



Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

"...hard to see...?"

Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).

That picture may be representative of what the caption of the Mount will see, but that is not the issue being discussed. When you are in a boat just a couple feet over the top of the water, it is hard to see kayaks. Sun presents a challenge, and waves also present a challenge. Not to mention other boats that may be between you and the kayak.

[noreast]

Originally Posted by ApS

"...hard to see...?"



Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).

So, if you don't understand the difference point of view will make, your posts don't mean much. If you do understand the difference and your just dishonest in order to make a point, then your posts mean nothing.

[Phantom]

I promised myself that I wasn't going to get baited into this thread ...................... BUT .................looks foggy as hell in that photo ...... wonder how long you waited for the fog to lift off them to grab this shot !


and that's a telephoto lense --- let's take a peak at say 500- 1,000 yds

.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Phantom

I promised myself that I wasn't going to get baited into this thread ...................... BUT .................looks foggy as hell in that photo ...... wonder how long you waited for the fog to lift off them to grab this shot !

As anyone can see by the clearness of the opposite shoreline, the weather was not foggy at all.

Overcast, yes.

Polaroid​® sunglasses would give more contrast, and would have helped to bring out the colors in the same group of kayaks.

Originally Posted by Phantom

...and that's a telephoto lense --- let's take a peak at say 500- 1,000 yds.

'Best I could do is a peak five miles away.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.

Chip, why do you say that, his pictures are always so germane

Just because it was taken from his deck which is obviously higher than the mast on his sailboat?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.

Who's having difficulty seeing kayaks or other boats—like Jet-Skis? Should display red flags, or be painted orange?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.

Well, this photograph does show a boater's perspective—and this single-seater boat doesn't use paddles.

Should it be painted orange, or fly a large red flag so it's "visible"?

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

Well, this photograph does show a boater's perspective—and this single-seater boat doesn't use paddles.

Should it be painted orange, or fly a large red flag so it's "visible"?

Yes, no and maybe.

Yes the picture shows the correct perspective.
No, it should not be painted orange. But a reflective color would make it easier to see.
Maybe a flag of some sort should be required for kayaks and canoes, but I am not sold on that idea.

I do think that kayakers, canoers, and operators of other small craft that are difficult to see should take some personal responsibility to protect themselves.

I also would like to ask you why you are so opposed to the thought that some water craft are difficult to see in certain conditions?
Honest question. You have mentioned before that you keep a CD on your sailboat to reflect the sun in boaters eyes so they can see you. To me, that means that you feel that your vessel is difficult to see.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Yes, no and maybe.

Yes the picture shows the correct perspective.
No, it should not be painted orange. But a reflective color would make it easier to see.

The photo showed several kayak colors, all nearly equal in visibility—especially when viewed through Polaroids​®—with a baseball cap "worn frontwards". A flash from a CD could remind them of a poor, but common, practices—plus life-saving "eye equipment" against the glare of the sunny day.

Why is it that the NHMP boats are grey in color—and why are the fastest of Lake Winnipesaukee's 40-foot speedboats painted orange?

Yes, there are times when even large boats are disguised:



Is the captain going too fast for these conditions?

Originally Posted by chipj29

I also would like to ask you why you are so opposed to the thought that some water craft are difficult to see in certain conditions?
Honest question. You have mentioned before that you keep a CD on your sailboat to reflect the sun in boaters eyes so they can see you. To me, that means that you feel that your vessel is difficult to see.

​​•​ ​With 75 square feet of sail—including the colors neon-yellow and neon-orange—you'd think that I would be easy to see.

​​•​ ​I now use an equally effective "mini-CD", and only go out when it's sunny. Most boaters in my locale have now been "trained", and I usually get a knowing acknowledgement, whether or not I "advise" them by "solar-CD".

Latest: "Nice new sail".

Originally Posted by chipj29

I do think that kayakers, canoers, and operators of other small craft that are difficult to see should take some personal responsibility to protect themselves.

Would you have a problem seeing a SUP which has freeboard of four inches? SUP operators are, after all, the "pedestrians of the waters". (Who don't step out from behind vans).



​​•​ ​Canoes average about 15-feet long. A 150' rule "visual" would include 10 canoes in a straight line. That's actually a greater distance than you (and I) think offhand.

​​•​ ​Kayaks, if anything, have gotten smaller, with the roto-molded craft gaining rapidly in numbers. It's incumbent on the faster boaters who share these waters to slow down to keep a "proper" watch.

​​•​ ​Member DaveR said it best with, "When on an apparent collision course, it only takes a turn of a few degrees to pass behind the other craft."

This is especially valuable to a sailboat, which benefits from the "push" of a wake from behind; otherwise, it can stop them dead in the water—or soak everyone on board.

​​•​ ​I wrote here 11 years ago, that boats tend to be distracted towards my sailboat, even though we may be the only two boats out on The Broads. My sail does not have "Free Beer" posted on it!

​​The following is an example of distraction—a 30-second favorite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...ZDIwaRWCl0#t=3

​​​Although not the shortest video out there among Winni boaters:

.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

.

You know, it is pretty clear to me that we don't agree on this, which is fine. I have no intention of clogging this forum with images or pictures of boats, canoes, kayaks, or pets on stand up paddle boards similar to what you may have found on the internet.

The fact of the matter is, and you can't disagree with this, is that certain watercraft, or objects on the water, in certain conditions, are difficult to see. No matter the speed you are traveling, sometimes things are hard to see.

If you disagree with that, then well I don't know what to say.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

APS, you're beginning to post like FLL!

FLL and I agree that some speedboats are a mortal hazard to peaceable boaters—most especially, those speedboat "drivers" who practice scofflaw "driving".

Originally Posted by chipj29

You know, it is pretty clear to me that we don't agree on this, which is fine. I have no intention of clogging this forum with images or pictures of boats, canoes, kayaks, or pets on stand up paddle boards similar to what you may have found on the internet. The fact of the matter is, and you can't disagree with this, is that certain watercraft, or objects on the water, in certain conditions, are difficult to see.

Starting with the five kayaks nine days ago, every photo was taken by me on this Lake. The prior Interstate photo was also mine. The SUP with the dogs was taken at a neighbor's here last month. The dogs' owners brought swim masks, and were diving below. Most of us can see the dogs, which are smaller than most boaters.

This powerboat is an occupied Jet-Ski at headway speed, which I'll propose is not as easy to see as a kayak:



BTW: How would it do at a dockside exhaust noise test, I wonder?

Originally Posted by chipj29

No matter the speed you are traveling, sometimes things are hard to see. If you disagree with that, then well I don't know what to say.

Speed diminishes the visual experience: it's not made better with rain, fog, darkness, "selfie-sticks", GPS, cellphones, alcohol, a boat at full-capacity, or squinting into the sun.



.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

FLL and I agree that some speedboats are a mortal hazard to peaceable boaters—most especially, those speedboat "drivers" who practice scofflaw "driving".

Mortal hazard to peaceable boaters
Speedboat "drivers" practicing scofflaw "driving"

You and I were discussing visibility of certain types of watercraft in certain conditions, and you turned it into another speed limit discussion. I am NOT taking the bait.

And with this, I am out of this discussion.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

FLL and I agree that some speedboats are a mortal hazard to peaceable boaters—most especially, those speedboat "drivers" who practice scofflaw "driving".

You share other commonalities as well... you two should hang out, you'll get along swimmingly!!

[Phantom]

Phantom just sits back and shakes his head ..............



just another example of a thread derailed
.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Phantom just sits back and shakes his head ..............



just another example of a thread derailed
.

My apologies. I can't stand when APS posts unrelated pics etc, and end up getting sucked in to correct the misinformation.

[pm203]

To get back to the original question, the lake is not any safer. Speed was never the issue, alcohol and stupidity were and still are.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by chipj29

The fact of the matter is, and you can't disagree with this, is that certain watercraft, or objects on the water, in certain conditions, are difficult to see. No matter the speed you are traveling, sometimes things are hard to see. If you disagree with that, then well I don't know what to say.

That's why the U.S. Coast Guard enforces Rule 6...

Some here would disagree with the U.S. Coast Guard regarding long-established maritime law...?

Originally Posted by Phantom

"...just another example of a thread derailed..."

The OP listed two "restrictions"—listed below.

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

"...I don't believe that the boating Safety course, nor speed limits have really done anything that make the lake safer..."

​
Nothing's been derailed.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

That's why the U.S. Coast Guard enforces Rule 6...

Some here would disagree with the U.S. Coast Guard regarding long-established maritime law...?

During the SL debate, you and your fellow SL supporters said Rule 6 was inadequate. But now it is "well established maritime law"... you wonder why people are confused by your ramblings.

[pm203]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

During the SL debate, you and your fellow SL supporters said Rule 6 was inadequate. But now it is "well established maritime law"... you wonder why people are confused by your ramblings.

What would you expect from a group that used the tragedy of one of their own to promote their own agenda?

[Webbsatwinni]

Could be why this forum died, too one sided and specifically motivated. Any discussions involving anything they want to be speed related is sent to the issues area to help influence the opinions of its members.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

During the SL debate, you and your fellow SL supporters said Rule 6 was inadequate. But now it is "well established maritime law"... you wonder why people are confused by your ramblings.

Sorry you are confused, but maritime is defined at Dictionary.com as, "connected with the sea, especially in relation to seafaring commercial or military activity".



As anyone can see at the above photograph, Lake Winnipesaukee is considered "protected inland waters" by the USCG; nonetheless, rules for a proper watch, proper lighting, and keeping crew and passengers safe still apply.

Scoured long ago by glacial epochs, Lake Winnipesaukee is a highly-fractured freshwater lake, shaped into scores of mini-lakes consisting of many bays, inlets, ports, coves and harbors. The "Big" lake is further constricted by boulders, rocks, shoals, islands, and perhaps hundreds of navigational markers to delineate them. These natural- and man-made features effectively shrink the lake for boaters.

These bays, inlets, ports, coves and harbors should be sanctuaries for wildlife, nature-watching, and safe boating. BUT two "experienced" boaters—who definitely should have known better—changed all that.

Now look at Sebago Lake:



Sebago Lake is nearly empty most of the season, has no speed limit, but is spared the tragic history of Lake Winnipesaukee's alcohol-fueled boaters.

Maybe we can explore the difference?



.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by ApS

Now look at Sebago Lake:
Sebago Lake is nearly empty most of the season, has no speed limit, but is spared the tragic history of Lake Winnipesaukee's alcohol-fueled boaters.
Maybe we can explore the difference?

.

Maybe we can explore this topic without the hyperbole?

[noreast]

Iv'e never seen more drunk people in my life as I did last time I spent a week at Sebago. And that's no hyperbole.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by ApS

Sorry you are confused, but maritime is defined at Dictionary.com as, "connected with the sea, especially in relation to seafaring commercial or military activity".



As anyone can see at the above photograph, Lake Winnipesaukee is considered "protected inland waters" by the USCG; nonetheless, rules for a proper watch, proper lighting, and keeping crew and passengers safe still apply.

Scoured long ago by glacial epochs, Lake Winnipesaukee is a highly-fractured freshwater lake, shaped into scores of mini-lakes consisting of many bays, inlets, ports, coves and harbors. The "Big" lake is further constricted by boulders, rocks, shoals, islands, and perhaps hundreds of navigational markers to delineate them. These natural- and man-made features effectively shrink the lake for boaters.

These bays, inlets, ports, coves and harbors should be sanctuaries for wildlife, nature-watching, and safe boating. BUT two "experienced" boaters—who definitely should have known better—changed all that.

Now look at Sebago Lake:



Sebago Lake is nearly empty most of the season, has no speed limit, but is spared the tragic history of Lake Winnipesaukee's alcohol-fueled boaters.

Maybe we can explore the difference?



.

Yes, you are confused. Have a great summer complaining about everything but yourself!!

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by ApS

Sorry you are confused, but maritime is defined at Dictionary.com as, "connected with the sea, especially in relation to seafaring commercial or military activity".
.

I really really hate it when people post a snipet of a definition to suit there own purpose....


adjective
1.
connected with the sea in relation to navigation, shipping, etc.
2.
of or relating to the sea:
maritime resources.
3.
bordering on the sea:
maritime provinces.
4.
living near or in the sea:
maritime plants.
5.
characteristic of a sailor; nautical:
maritime clothing.

Beacuase I can use a snipet of definition to define sea to be:

Waters of considerable extent, more or less definitely marked off by land boundaries

APS why is it that you stir the pot more then most, but yet your the good guy?

Bottom line is as it always has been you can't legislate stupid.... the more laws you enact doesn't equate to a safer community.... the lake is not any safer now then it was 12 years ago....

[kawishiwi]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I really really hate it when people post a snipet of a definition to suit there own purpose....


adjective
1.
connected with the sea in relation to navigation, shipping, etc.
2.
of or relating to the sea:
maritime resources.
3.
bordering on the sea:
maritime provinces.
4.
living near or in the sea:
maritime plants.
5.
characteristic of a sailor; nautical:
maritime clothing.

Beacuase I can use a snipet of definition to define sea to be:

Waters of considerable extent, more or less definitely marked off by land boundaries

APS why is it that you stir the pot more then most, but yet your the good guy?

Bottom line is as it always has been you can't legislate stupid.... the more laws you enact doesn't equate to a safer community.... the lake is not any safer now then it was 12 years ago....

Wow. Burn a guy up and in the same breath make fully & completely unsubstantiated claim on the relative safety of the lake over the last dozen years? Or do I owe you an apology because you are citing one or more documentary pieces of evidence that substantiate your safety assertion? At least the poster you tookbissue with actually cited, albeit in an edited form, REAL information.





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