Seaplane Base and runway 19 Mile Bay Proposed

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

What exactly are your concerns lowering the dock posts?

Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.

It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.



It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.

Could have not said it better myself, thank you.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Originally Posted by CowTimes

Residents have valid concerns about altering town property so that a commercial enterprise can be operated off a town wharf, reducing non-commercial public use, without any compensation to the town or opening it up for public bid. And that is before safety concerns.

There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise.

It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property.

That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[TheVoiceOfReason]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

What you're missing is that once you mention the following:

All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system.

then you make the transition from a seaplane owned by a private citizen who would like to stop at the town docks to run into the store into a commercial tour operator in the same way the M/S Mount Washington and her sister ships operate. CowTimes couldn't have said it any better, and you seem like a smart person, so I'm sure you see the difference and are just trying to minimize the ask in the eyes of the public with the "it's just a few posts that need lowering". I can't see the town opening itself up to the increased liability that comes from having an airplane charter service operating from their dock. It sounds like a great business idea, just something that needs to be run from a private dock.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

You have set up a very poor strawman with the barges and claiming unequal treatment. The reason barges use the town wharf is that is the only way for TOWN RESIDENTS on the islands to get access for building materials, septic pump outs, etc. So what you characterize as a business using the dock is an entirely proper use for town residents that pay property taxes. Indeed, the main benefits that the island residents get from their costly property taxes are emergency services (ie, the fire boat the selectmen want to be sure is not impaired by seaplanes) and use of this wharf for such purposes (island residents don’t use schools, don’t have roads to maintain, etc.).

Respectfully, the only obvious reason a tour/charter operator teamed up with the store is so there would be a fig leaf for letting planes fly in for an ice cream cone. I’m no pilot, but I have my doubts that a private plane is going to fly in from hundreds of miles away just to get an ice cream cone, particularly when there is no gas facility.

This would be a different conversation entirely if you were not proposing a tour/charter business being based off town property. But without that, you wouldn’t be involved with this to begin with.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

You have set up a very poor strawman with the barges and claiming unequal treatment. The reason barges use the town wharf is that is the only way for TOWN RESIDENTS on the islands to get access for building materials, septic pump outs, etc. So what you characterize as a business using the dock is an entirely proper use for town residents that pay property taxes. Indeed, the main benefits that the island residents get from their costly property taxes are emergency services (ie, the fire boat the selectmen want to be sure is not impaired by seaplanes) and use of this wharf for such purposes (island residents don’t use schools, don’t have roads to maintain, etc.).

Respectfully, the only obvious reason a tour/charter operator teamed up with the store is so there would be a fig leaf for letting planes fly in for an ice cream cone. I’m no pilot, but I have my doubts that a private plane is going to fly in from hundreds of miles away just to get an ice cream cone, particularly when there is no gas facility.

This would be a different conversation entirely if you were not proposing a tour/charter business being based off town property. But without that, you wouldn’t be involved with this to begin with.

By strawman you mean... Good point?

I didn't catch your name.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

By strawman you mean... Good point?

I didn't catch your name.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

No- strawman means the opposite, but you knew that. Which is why there is no valid response as to the purpose of barges and their inherent benefit for and need by town island residents, as compared to, here, only your pecuniary business interests.

You’ll catch my name at the town meeting, if this “proposal” gets that far. That is because I, unlike you apparently, am a town resident that pays for this wharf with my property taxes.

Good businesses need to be good neighbors. Neither you nor the store are off to a good start here.

[Epic Seaplane Adventures]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

No- strawman means the opposite, but you knew that. Which is why there is no valid response as to the purpose of barges and their inherent benefit for and need by town island residents, as compared to, here, only your pecuniary business interests.

You’ll catch my name at the town meeting, if this “proposal” gets that far. That is because I, unlike you apparently, am a town resident that pays for this wharf with my property taxes.

Good businesses need to be good neighbors. Neither you nor the store are off to a good start here.

I am a town resident that pays my taxes for the pier as well...

I appreciate your passion. Hiding behind a keyboard throwing darts isn't very productive to a good conversation. Feel free to call me up and discuss this at length.

Thank you.

Epic Seaplane Adventures

[SAB1]

One has to wonder where these plane riders will park their vehicles..................

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

The thing you are missing is that no one objects to the barges themselves. We all recognize that they are important to our neighbors in various ways, and they are not much more intrusive or dangerous than a boat.

People do have a variety of objections to planes and/or this type of business usage of a dock. So as you might expect, they are in no hurry to enable planes on their (town's) facility.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Epic Seaplane Adventures

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.

We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off.

Is this not the same thing that barges do?

No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day.

This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do.

Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat.

What am I missing?

Epic Seaplane Adventures

Barge operators are not asking the town to modify the existing dock. They use it as is.

Secondly you are not entitled to equal access if the means of use requires special consideration. Just in the same way an 18 wheeled big rig can't just operate wherever they want as some roads are not equipped to handle a truck of it's size and weight.

I think the town needs to put higher dock posts up with night time lighting installed. That would be far more beneficial to the residents. Maybe I'll write the town and suggest that.