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#2 | |
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#3 |
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I've not heard of this, but the current seaplane operator was selling his plane when I called asking about a flight last month, and he told me there was a new operator about to start up. I'm guessing this would be him/her and think it's a great idea.
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#4 |
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Cant see it "Flying". Way to much boat traffic. Winter time the bay is pretty mobbed with bob houses. I would think with the Fire Dept boat and Game Warden boat there EMS response times could be impacted.
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#5 |
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Perhaps I’m missing the market on this, as I’m not involved in aviation. But is the store something that would attract small aircraft to warrant this? It’s a nice store and all, but are people going to literally fly in to go to it?
And for the fuel aspect, could the gas dock even handle aircraft? I don’t know much about aviation, but I would have thought it would be different fuel than for boats, and I don’t think the store has more than one tank, but may be wrong. Last, I don’t see the concept of using the town pier as feasible. Folks already complain that the town pier is filled and hard to use. Adding planes doesn’t seem to make much sense to me. It also seems part of the concept might be to permit a plane ride business to keep a plane at the town dock? The boats of town residents can’t be docked overnight; at the pier. I don’t see how a plane should be treated differently. And the “alternative” option of building an extension of the existing gas dock is a dead end—the store doesn’t own the docks, the Pier 19 condo association does. Not to mention all of the state shoreland permit issues that this would raise. I would be interested to hear what folks in the aviation community think about this, particularly for the winter. Would there be a use for a second winter runway, in addition to Alton? And 19 mile bay has a lot of ice fishing activity. How is that going to work? Seems to me this concept raises way more questions than have been contemplated, and that this was all attempted to be done under the radar. The board of selectmen are right that this needs to be noticed for public hearing before the town agrees to anything on this. |
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With all the hell raised over the noise generated from Camp Belknap I can only imagine how mental the nearby residents will get with the sound of planes landing and taking off.
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#7 |
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I don't know what to make of it. From the few things I found online, couldn't tell whether Epic is doing scenic tours with its own plane(s) or the airport is intended for use of private planes.
Owner is Thomas Wood Phone is 603-724-9104 https://www.nhcompanyregistry.com/co...ne-adventures/ https://www.nhcompanyregistry.com/co...england-llc-2/ https://airnav.com/airport/NH64 Their Instagram has a few photos of planes, no explanation or any narrative: ID:: epic_seaplane_adventures |
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#8 |
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I guess i'll be the guy that throws the concerns back at the forum.
Boat traffic: There isn't any at the Alton runway? During the summer it is always full of boats, I have actually seen 1 plane in the many years that I have been on the lake land in Alton Bay in the summer. Bob Houses: Have you seen Alton during a cold winter? It's packed with fisherman and houses (and campers). They just mark the runway and hope that people don't fish on it. As for the gas and such, not sure why they would need/want gas there. Alton, and Paugus Bay Water runway doesn't have gas (that I know of). So it would be interesting to see what comes of that aspect. Just something to think about though. |
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#9 | |
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#10 |
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A few things to note:
1) the certificate is for a private base/runway, as opposed to a public facility and this will require all fly in pilots to obtain prior permission to land. This will minimize traffic. 2) the nh review only looks at the plan/site with regard to approach, departure, and runway size and fixed obstructions. It does not evaluate things like boat traffic, noise, wildlife habitat. Things outside their review parameters are the responsibility of other state/local agencies. 3) it is the responsibility of the pilot of a float plane to determine safe landing conditions and to make that determination taking into account boat traffic. The plane must get out of the way of the boat, not the other way around unless it is an emergency. If the pilot operates unsafely he/she can get their ticket pulled. (In this age of cell phones unsafe operation is pretty easy to document. If only 1 plane is using the base the landing/takeoff may be slightly delayed but the boat traffic I’ve observed in the bay isn’t significant enough to prevent safe operation. 4) The FAA has final review/say and is the agency that issues the final operational permit. That said, I don’t like the idea. I think waterfront residents on the mainland & Farm & Chase Islands will be unfairly burdened with a tremendous amount of noise. Seaplane takeoffs at 100% throttle are very loud. I think there is the potential for damage & injury from prop wash for the boats and people at the Pier 19 Association especially if the loading/parking dock ends up as a new pier off of the existing gas dock (which I believe is owned by the store, not the Association.) However, the store is a member of the Association and must be subject to the terms of the Association documents which may not allow the operation. The state may also not allow the installation of a new dock. I can’t see the town allowing the use of the public dock for commercial purposes plus, the overhang of the float plane wing could interfere with truck/ambulance access to the fire boat. There is also the question of the Loon population in the bay. While boats, even at high speed, can quickly maneuver to avoid them an airplane on approach/landing/takeoff doesn’t have that luxury. My hope is that residents of 19 Mile Bay attend the town meetings on the subject to let their voices be heard and that others concerned voice their opinions to the FAA and other state agencies that may be involved in the final decision. Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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#11 |
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As a (former) pilot, I'm amazed at some of the comments and negativity here. Yes, a plane makes some noise on take-off, but not more than many boats. The difference is, in a few seconds, at 80 mph the plane is gone. At 35 MPH the boat noise is there for a long time. Landing at idle throttle, hardly any noise. No wake, no erosion, no chewing up the milfoil, etc. etc. With all the McMansions around the ;lake, I'm surprised nobody has a helicopter. There's a sweet sound for you.
Just think, somebody could come along and start a wake-surfing school, doing donuts in the bay, 3 foot wakes, playing a 4000 watt stereo all day, etc. etc. After a couple of days, you won't even be aware of a seaplane in the area. |
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#12 | |
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#13 | |
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#14 | |
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I see you takeoff from mirror lake on occasion, pretty cool. |
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#15 |
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Like RBG, I don't quite get the logic. Lots of boat traffic. Plus, why there? It's not any sort of destination, and there are other nearby places with much less potential conflict, such as Mirror Lake, as mentioned
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#16 |
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The store owner wants to partner with epic seaplane adventures and run a scenic airplane tours business from this location is my understanding.
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#17 | |
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If it is truely just for a private plane, than more than likely it will only be for 1 plane? My friend lives on a small pond that has TONs of wake surfing boats that are always out on the pond, and a sea plane that takes off and lands at least every night for a short flight around. They never have any issues with "sharing" the water with the plane. People need to stop worrying about change of things they are not used. As for the docking at those docks, ok, I'm interested in that aspect of how that works. I don't know much about that area and the docks. But as for the "noise" and the "traffic" that's not an issue. |
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#18 |
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Last August, this is how a potential boat buyer made his way to Shep Brown's to take a boat for a test ride.
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#19 | |
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![]() ![]() As for boat traffic, Dr. Libby flew a bigger floatplane out of the same area. ![]() Although they can be moored for short periods, a floatplane would be happiest kept at a wooden RAMP. The gasoline hose would need to be long enough to reach the floatplane's wings. |
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#20 | |
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#21 |
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Tough to negotiate a discount when you arrive via chopper
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#22 |
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I wonder if he will offer instruction there? I would sure like to add water wings to my cert someday. Can't think of a more fun and convenient place to do it.
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#23 |
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Video of selectmen’s meeting :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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#27 | |
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Like I said, the issue I see is the docking, and I did state I know nothing about that part over there. But the issue with the noise and such I just don't see an issue. There's bigger issues around to worry about than a few seconds of a take off. |
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#28 |
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I don't have a problem with the proposed business, the problem I have is the store owner is trying to get the town to modify a town wharf which is owned by the residents of Tuftonboro to accommodate her business without any input from the towns taxpayers. It appears the selectmen to their credit recognize that so we will see what happens going forward.
The store owner has the option of going through the permit process with the state to put an extension on her dock that she owns. This IMO makes much more sense but will obviously take some time and considerable cost to her. Not sure what the condo dock association members think of that idea, time will tell. |
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#29 | |
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#30 |
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I can imagine the same type of uproar occurred when the Weirs Seaplane Base was established many decades ago. And as far as I know, public docks are leased to private enterprises in several towns around the lake, so it’s not unprecedented.
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#31 |
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You are entitled to your opinion, so are those opposed to this. I am only opposed to the use of Union Wharf for this business. As far as I know the store owner or the scenic airplane tours business, epic seaplane adventures has not asked the town to lease space at Union Wharf. From the video I watched of the selectmen's work session on 4/26/2021 where the owner and yourself asked the town to modify the wharf there was never a mention of leasing space for this private enterprise. Perhaps you have info to the contrary.
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#33 |
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I agree with what you said about public dock leasing, no question, just do not think it is a good idea for this particular wharf.
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No seaplane dock on union wharf!
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#37 |
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#38 |
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It's funny how people hate change. Everybody was upset when they closed the airport in Wolfeboro, but I bet if they wanted to open another one now everybody would have a fit.
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#39 |
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I wonder if 19 Mile Bay was selected as a Seaplane Base and Runway because of the easy access to Gasoline?
Personally, I would think that 20 Mile Bay would be a better location for a Seaplane Base because of lessor boat traffic, however there is no gasoline access. |
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#40 |
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There is no “easy access” to gasoline. Air planes need aviation gasoline (avgas)which contains tetraethyllead which was the anti-knock additive removed from motor vehicle gas (mogas)in the 70’s because of pollution concerns. The boat gas sold at Pier 19 is mogas. To serve boats and planes they would have to install another tank. I doubt the DES would permit a second underground tank on the lake side of the road and there are few, if any, fire marshals who will permit an above ground gas tank due to fire concerns. I doubt the store would convert their existing tank to a gas and lose the boat gas business.
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I guess one question would be despite having a gas pump there, unless they are pumping a 100LL into the boats, they will need the infrastructure (ie: a separate fuel farm) to fuel the aircraft. Unless something has dramatically changed, I believe an aircraft would be very unhappy drinking anything but a 100LL.
Lets not forget, when I park my Turbine Beaver on floats out there, I will need a fuel farm for Jet-A too. ![]() |
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#42 |
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The store owner and her pilot friend went to the town selectmen to ask to modify the town owned Union Wharf Pier. They wanted to cut down some pilings and even offered to do it themselves! The nerve! They never asked for permission
or offered to lease it. It’s almost like they thought they were entitled to use it. If they want to park the plane at their own gas dock, fine. I could care less. But I will mobilize all my resources to stop them from using the town pier. It’s not right. I am really starting to get a little tired of this store owner thinking they can throw their money around and block access to the docks. I and my friends will no longer shop there. |
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#43 |
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Whole thing seems like a dumb idea to me. Anyone with half a brain would come to the same conclusion, having planes and boats in a relatively confined area is an accident waiting to happen. The noise will not be welcomed - again if folks that are in the area complain of the noise that camp Belknap kids make this is going to be far louder and potentially offensive. Expecting or asking the town to make special docking accommodations for planes where there is no direct benefit to the town makes no sense.
Finally the store, hate to say it but the owners are screwed as they own a building, a postage stamp piece of property and have little to no control over their surroundings, not even the parking lot. That is and will always be a problem they cannot solve. |
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Add to the fact that they paid way too much for it and sunk another way too much amount in the renovation, the return on investment must be a 50 plus year schedule!
Oh it would have been so nice if Skelly’s went in there. |
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I'll play devil's advocate. I think the idea is pretty bad ass. Would be cool to have a seaplane business up this side of the lake. Operation of the seaplane itself shouldn't really have a direct impact on anyone boating as they still need to be cognizant of boaters out there. The noise comment has already been addressed in a previous post. Wharf seems like a reasonable spot but understand the frustrations of providing a spot here.
Most of these posts seem like NIMBY posts either (1) because they're not getting along with the new store owner due to other issues going on or (2) just not open to a new and fun local operation. Be concerned with safety all you want but there's inherent risk in almost everything we do. If you want to operate your life always considering worse case scenarios then I feel bad (especially since this sounds like a one plane operation). I have no dog in the fight but am local enough that I boat around there regularly and would never consider this a concern. Just throwing a different perspective out there.
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OMG!! They asked the Board of Selectmen ! The HOROR ! This obviously comes as a surprise, but if you want to do business or otherwise use town property for a picnic or a parade or anything else, you have to go through town officials. In this case, that's the BOS. So the seaplane operator did exactly what he was supposed to do. The BOS decided to plan a public hearing with notice to residents. They did exactly what they were supposed to do.
Being angry with either side for doing the proper thing is just plain silly. |
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They didn't just go to the selectmen, They got the state permit then they went to the selectmen in an obvious attempt to avoid going to public hearing which they know will not pass. Even one of the selectmen said to them it seems like you are doing this a bit underhanded. He also said it would have been better to come to them first. Thankfully our selectmen see through her entitled ways. Just because you have money, you do not make the rules.
I am not against the seaplanes, just using town owned property for her money making dreams. |
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I would suggest that folks interested in this issue take the time to watch the YouTube video of the selectmen’s meeting where this was discussed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgOoOKovOys What struck me most was the blank check the store and plane operator wanted from the town, and without any actual plans or proposals in place. There was lots of bobbing and weaving around what it would be used for, and pushing to get the selectmen to approve it without any public input, even after the selectmen repeatedly raised the problems with doing so. There was discussion of things from seaplane festivals, to potential private charters dropping off area residents commuting from Boston or NYC, to individual planes coming for an ice cream, and countless other potential uses of the seaplane base. And most perplexing to me is that the store owner—who seems to have no aviation experience—would be the one that makes decisions about which planes can and can’t land and dock at the town wharf. We’re supposed to believe that the store is going to tell a plane coming to do business at the store not to land because the bay is too busy? And as for the potential alternative of the store building additional dock area next to the gas pumps, it would be interesting to see actual plans for such a proposal. One would need to see the proximity to the boat slips and gas dock where boats gas up (not planes, at least not without installing a second fuel tank/pump, that almost certainly would not be permitted by the state), as there are unquestionably safety issues there. And then you have a state highway right there, and you can’t have wings of airplanes hanging over the highway. So lots of unanswered questions, and that is all, of course, before whatever state process would be required for the shoreland issues. And while we’re on the discussion of the store adding additional dock space, if that is a real possibility, why the heck is the store trying to shake down the dock owners to use their private dock area for store customers if the store could just build their own additional docking area? |
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If the landing strip is outside the bay with the planes taxi in that seems a little more safe, again think worst case scenario where a plane comes in and for whatever reason has a problem and crashes - how much open area is there free and clear of people, houses, boats, etc... to where no collateral damage is done, or is unlikely. Ideally it would make sense to demark the landing area so at least boaters would be aware of the landing area. Not that all boaters understand the already existing markers on the lake just sayin. Far as the dock and land situation it's a complete mess I can't see how well it would work trying to get planes into that town dock even if the town said OK. Seems like it's a liability nightmare to be honest. Now having them park along the shore\beach along 109 would make more sense to me but I don't know if that is possible. At least it would keep the planes and boats from getting mixed up and avoid a possible accident. Frankly I can see it possible it could work but much thought would need to be given to the logistics. |
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Thank you for the video share. I combed through a portion of it, but here are my favorite quotes ![]() "this is a process, so I was just hoping that I can get your (town) help and just get going to not lose the season" "you help me I help you" "one way or another we are going to do it" Sounds like entitlement to me. We all have to go through the process for a dock and no one deserves special treatment from the town. Especially a commercial business. Selectman need to kill this. Entertaining it is idiotic and disservice to the residents of tuftonboro |
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Now we all are seeing how entitled the store owner thinks she is. Watch video of the meeting very closely. Her comments are sickening. She thinks cus she overpaid for a store that will never return her investment it is somehow the town’s fault and the town owes this to her?
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Updating my previous post with more specifics, now that I've watched some of the video posted by CowTimes. The pilot consultant to the store owner says that that planes cannot land within 500' of land of 300' of a moving vessel. So obviously they are landing west of Chases Island, and looking for a landing area that is 200 yards across with zero boats. I don't know the length of the runway required, maybe SP can weigh in. But just based on width, I can't imagine a legal landing on a weekend in the summer.
The store owner reminds me of the Dive guys. Whether you like their initiatives or not, it's easy to see how they dream big but don't really think about the pesky details required for success. |
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https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...g_Aircraft.pdf http://c-spa.org/v2/uploads/SPA_Wate...y_Oct2010s.pdf |
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Any one concerned about the loons and baby chicks. The Farm Island development certainly got a lot of attention concerning loons nesting. This needs much more investigation and proof points. |
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Hello everyone!
We were just made aware of this thread on the forum and thought I would join in on the conversation. I would like to address anyone’s concerns! Feel free to ask or PM me or just call! I hope to have a great discussion about these developments. However, I want to warn you, I come with logic and facts; emotion and hyperbole will not be entertained, sorry. I do realize that I can’t spell very well, I’m a pilot after all and am an expert in abbreviation and acronyms! I also realize that I can’t please everyone. 1) Right off the bat, I would like to address the false narrative that is being perpetuated that this is a proposal to establish a Seaplane Base with the town. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What is being proposed is the lowering of the dock posts on the North side of the town docks, at no cost to the town tax payers at all. Establishing a Seaplane Base is not something that the town can approve, that is done by the state and the FAA. 2) I would like to address some claims that this was done “under the radar”. These claims are also false. As someone stated, we went to the selectman! Isn’t this part of the process? It’s not as if we went out in the middle of the night and cut down dock posts. For anyone being critical can you please tell me the process and exactly where it is spelled out to have the dock posts lowered at the town dock? I need a checklist, I’m a pilot! There is a separate process that I followed to certify the landing area, but that has nothing to do with the town government. After following the state process this is when the dock post issue popped up so we came to the town. There are no secrets. Imagine if you needed a public hearing to take your boat to the town dock! There is technically no difference. This is about dock posts. Here is the state process that we followed. https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailt...step162017.pdf This “landing area” certification is nothing more than the state giving their approval saying that it is safe to do so and they provided a process to get the certification. Is anyone here willing to say that the State of New Hampshire is wrong? Please bring this to our attention. The state approved the plan. We are sympathetic to anyone's emotional reaction but to make accusations that we didn’t follow the process is just not true. Making statements that this was done “under the radar” is not accurate. 3) All we want is safe equal access to the docks. Someone stated that the town dock is not a seaplane dock. This is not true. Although the dock was not specifically designed for seaplanes, it is a dock. If a boat can access the dock legally, so can a seaplane. A seaplane on the water must comply with the same regulations as a boat. The proposal is to lower the height of the dock posts. I’m not sure how anyone can say that this is ambiguous. Those posts serve zero purpose being that high. This will allow the tails of aircraft to be less of a concern at the dock, but to be very clear, the dock posts are only a minor obstruction and do not prevent aircraft from coming to the dock now, if the pilot was so inclined to, under the right weather conditions. 4) We are not scared or hiding from a public hearing at all! We want to have a healthy conversation and ensure that the community is happy, inclusive and not discriminating against anyone based on anything, like a poor vessel with wings! What I think is being confused is what the purpose of the public hearing is for. I do not believe the public hearing is to see if a vessel can come to the town dock, it is to see if the dock posts can be lowered. Again, imagine if you needed a public hearing to see if you can bring your boat to the town dock. This is the same thing. We simply want equal access. This isn’t about the plane coming in or going out this is about lowering the dock posts. 5) The concerns about blocking the dock for Fire and EMS were very legitimate. However, after further investigation and discussion the concerns were addressed. An aircraft at the dock would never be left unattended and could be moved at a moment’s notice, unlike some of the commercial barges that load and unload equipment at the docks regularly. A long conversation with the Fire Chief has taken place and I have answered questions to his satisfaction. In fact, I ask anyone skeptical about this subject please watch the video. Start at about the 46 minute mark. The Selectman pointed out that there is a “trash day” for islanders, where a dumpster is left on the pier so that islanders can bring their rubbish to dispose of. Can anyone think of a bigger obstruction to the fire boat than a dumpster left on the pier? In fact, just yesterday there was a huge furniture delivery vehicle blocking the pier and putting furniture onto a barge for some islanders. Certainly, an attended seaplane presents a significantly smaller obstacle to Fire and EMS services. We just ask for equal treatment and consideration. 6) Speaking of commercial barges! Do they pay the town to use the docks? If so, then any commercial operator would be expected to pay the same amount for sure! I grew up on Melody Island and know that many of the people who live out on the islands get serviced by the barges when they need work from contractors. I used to work on the Kitty Bell Barge. To anyone who lives on the islands, I ask, are you paying the town to have your contractors use the dock? If so, how much? We would be glad to go through the same equal process. 7) Noise! Have you ever heard the jet skis all day? Or the plentiful cigarette/offshore racing boats on the lake? A small seaplane has far less horsepower and less noise. How about a bunch of boats rafting up and playing music? We just want the same equal consideration. Again, this isn’t about seaplanes flying into the bay, this is about dock posts being lowered. 8) Traffic in the Bay? Aircraft must give way to boats while landing, until they are on the water, then they become a boat per the regulations (aside from speed and no wake exemptions). Keep in mind pilots are highly trained and go through annual physical and aircraft training on a regular basis. One step farther are tour operators. They are drug and alcohol tested as well as need to obtain certification from the FAA. Boaters are hardly held to the same standards. Pilots must adhere to much higher safety protocols than the boaters. This is some of the training that we go through. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjiXlKTCylg Also, there has been much discussion online about the distances aircraft must stay away from vessels. In the video I stated from memory 500’ and 300’. I would like to correct the record. It’s 500’ (FAR 91.119) and 150’ (NH boating rules). There is a clear “exception” and that is when taking off and landing. Obviously, an aircraft trying to land or take off cannot stay 500’ above the ground so they make exceptions. Please also reference FAR 91.115- right of way rules on water. 9) In the winter, if there isn’t a safe place to land then guess what will happen? Pilots will not land there. There is nothing stopping anyone from landing there now. I did this winter and it was a blast! Here is a video of my friend flying around the area on skis… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGkBQY02fkg 10) This area is rich in the history of seaplanes. In fact this last year was the 100th anniversary of having a seaplane base on Lake Winnipesaukee. I invite anyone to contact the Seaplane Pilots Association to find out more information. https://seaplanepilotsassociation.org/ 11) I operate in and out of Mirror Lake now. I went through the legal process and we have a great relationship with the homeowners of the lake and were actually featured in the town newspaper last year! The people love it! I welcome anyone to come out and see us. https://www.tuftonboro.org/sites/g/f...nteractive.pdf Again, this proposal to the town is merely to lower the dock posts on the North side of the town docks. This will allow small seaplanes to access the dock without any chance of hitting their tail on the posts. Nothing more and nothing less! All the emotion and fear needs to be toned down. We are open, honest and not afraid of any questions. We want to do this the correct way, with no corners cut at all. If that means that the Selectmen think there should be a public hearing then we welcome that! All we want is equal access. The North side of the town docks doesn’t get used by many boats anyway because it is so shallow. The town has a unique opportunity to become a transient stop for seaplanes! We hope that we have answered most of your questions and concerns and look forward to meeting everyone! Fly Safe! Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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I don't have the energy to go point by point, but just taking this first and most obvious one--OK, so you do not need "to establish a Seaplane Base with the town", but apparently you do need for the town's cooperation to make your state approved Seaplane Base usable. It is completely appropriate for the town to deny you any sort of leeway if they believe you are not acting in the best interest of the town. |
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I appreciate your reply. Your statement saying "we need the town", I would agree with, in that we are asking for the towns permission to lower the height of the dock posts.
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Welcome to the Forum and thank you for the concise and correct information.
Since you have been on Mirror Lake for some time, that should answer a lot of questions. Good luck. |
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The town selectmen and residents have every right to be concerned about a seaplane base in 19 mile bay using the town docks There may not currently be a prohibition against the use of the dock for seaplanes, but that should not be confused with the apparent perception that there will be an unregulated entitlement to such use going forward, particularly after asking the town to permit modifications for such use. |
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Hey thanks! When I did this process for Mirror Lake we did not have a public hearing at all. Why? Because it wasn't required.
All we have done is followed this process. When the dock post issue came up we followed the process to propose that the dock posts be lowered. It's a simple as that. Nothing more and nothing less. Incidentally, there are also approved landing areas in Winter Harbor and Alton Bay as well. Please don't confuse this with a place that is legal for a plane to land. This certification is the state's approval to say that it safe by the state and then able to be listed in the directory and put on the charts. A seaplane can land anywhere it is not prohibited to land and the pilot feels it is safe. Thank you!Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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I think we can all agree to that.
Just like the concerns about obstructing the dock have been brought up and commercial operations have been brought up. What exactly are your concerns lowering the dock posts? Quote:
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Also, the very people calling for the public hearing protesting to the lack of transparency should please post their names, in the spirit of transparency.
Thank you. Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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I think ESA makes good points although I do believe some are disingenuous. First he mentions he has established a base on Mirror Lake and has had no problems. He doesn’t mention that he uses his own private dock for his plane, not a public dock. My question would be, why doesn’t he run the sightseeing flights out of his base on Mirror Lake. Second he states that he followed the process to get the base approve. He did. However, he and the storeowner blindsided the town and the selectmen. Wouldn’t it have been more productive to go to the selectmen first, explain what he/they wanted to do and get input from the town on what their concerns might be?
I just think the whole approach was wrong. The base brings no benefit to the town that I can see. It may be a positive for the store but for who else? EPA, can you shed some light on this? Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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Most residents of Tuftonboro do not want this. From this thread anyone that doesn't care "has no stake". Why should the town give a commercial business private use over a town asset? This seems like a useless tourist attraction for the town and for the town to help you expand your business. The only attraction we need is the lake. You also have failed to answer the rebuttal that the wings will overhang onto the dock preventing cars driving or people walking on the wharf. Your response for the sound these planes will generate is justified because there are jet skis and loud boats? Bad take. The solution isn't to throw planes into the mix and create even more noise pollution ![]() |
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I love the idea of having a seaplane center/landing place/whatever you call it over there and hope it would help the store owners, etc. Question, though: how often would the plane be taking up public dock space? There's only really space for a few boats there as it is, and my real only concern is that much of what's available might be lost. Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system. All this aside, commercial barges come and go from the pier all the time. Picking up and dropping off. As far as I know the town doesn't prohibit them or charge them a fee. We just would expect equal treatment. Is it wrong to ask for the same equal treatment? Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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Public information from the NH Secretary of State’s website. Not naming names, but for some publicly available information, go to:
https://sos.nh.gov/corporation-ucc-s...s-name-lookup/ Click on Quick Start. Enter Epic Seaplane in the search box. In search result, click on Epic Seaplane Scroll down to Trade Name Owned By and click on the name shown. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on Filing History. Click on business formation. |
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There is an attempted narrative here that this is just about a few inches of wood on dock posts. It is much more than that. This as about an attempt to use public property for commercial use (both for the seaplane ride business and the store). While seaplanes may currently have every right to land on the lake with appropriate distances, etc, that doesn’t mean a seaplane operator has a right to use the town dock for a commercial purpose to run tours. The town and its residents have a valid interest here, and the town selectmen are properly concerned. For the same reason I can’t park my food truck on the wharf without a permit, etc, a charter/tour business can’t be run from a town dock. That is what the proponents are trying to disguise. It is a very different discussion if this was being proposed off private property. It seems obvious that the desire to use the town dock is to avoid this expense. But the town and its residents have no obligation to subsidize the store or a new charter/tour business off town property. That is why all of the self-serving platitudes about experience on Mirror Lake and private use are inapposite. |
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Also, allow seaplanes to transit the area and have equal access to the dock by lowering the posts. We aren't suggesting making the dock a permanent place to keep any planes, just make it accessible.
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I think you are making a lot of assumptions that are not accurate.
We are talking about having equal access to picking up and dropping off. Is this not the same thing that barges do? No one is talking about setting up shop and sitting there all day. This is about lowering dock posts to make it safer for seaplanes to pickup and drop off/and or come to the store for ice cream or whatever else they do. Same as the boaters do. Also, if the dock is full then the plane can't come in, same as a boat. What am I missing? Quote:
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All we are asking for is a place safe and equal access to pick up and drop off, based on a reservation system. then you make the transition from a seaplane owned by a private citizen who would like to stop at the town docks to run into the store into a commercial tour operator in the same way the M/S Mount Washington and her sister ships operate. CowTimes couldn't have said it any better, and you seem like a smart person, so I'm sure you see the difference and are just trying to minimize the ask in the eyes of the public with the "it's just a few posts that need lowering". I can't see the town opening itself up to the increased liability that comes from having an airplane charter service operating from their dock. It sounds like a great business idea, just something that needs to be run from a private dock. |
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Respectfully, the only obvious reason a tour/charter operator teamed up with the store is so there would be a fig leaf for letting planes fly in for an ice cream cone. I’m no pilot, but I have my doubts that a private plane is going to fly in from hundreds of miles away just to get an ice cream cone, particularly when there is no gas facility. This would be a different conversation entirely if you were not proposing a tour/charter business being based off town property. But without that, you wouldn’t be involved with this to begin with. |
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One has to wonder where these plane riders will park their vehicles..................
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The thing you are missing is that no one objects to the barges themselves. We all recognize that they are important to our neighbors in various ways, and they are not much more intrusive or dangerous than a boat.
People do have a variety of objections to planes and/or this type of business usage of a dock. So as you might expect, they are in no hurry to enable planes on their (town's) facility. |
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Barge operators are not asking the town to modify the existing dock. They use it as is. Secondly you are not entitled to equal access if the means of use requires special consideration. Just in the same way an 18 wheeled big rig can't just operate wherever they want as some roads are not equipped to handle a truck of it's size and weight. I think the town needs to put higher dock posts up with night time lighting installed. That would be far more beneficial to the residents. Maybe I'll write the town and suggest that. |
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I think it is a great opportunity for you to respond to anyone who does have legitimate questions and to answer their concerns. My question is where do you plan to refuel your plane, and how often do you project you will need to refuel? Are some special precautions in place to assure none of the fuel will get into the lake during the refueling process? Again, thank you for answering member questions. |
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I didn't catch your name. Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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subaruliving (05-20-2021) |
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#87 | |
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You’ll catch my name at the town meeting, if this “proposal” gets that far. That is because I, unlike you apparently, am a town resident that pays for this wharf with my property taxes. Good businesses need to be good neighbors. Neither you nor the store are off to a good start here. |
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#88 | |
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Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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#89 | |
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And as far as how many times a plane would come in and out it is undetermined. However a 30-minute flight would take an entire hour including safety briefing, loading, taxiing, docking and unloading. I hope that helps. I appreciate everyone's input and questions... Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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#90 | |
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I appreciate your passion. Hiding behind a keyboard throwing darts isn't very productive to a good conversation. Feel free to call me up and discuss this at length. Thank you. Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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#91 | |
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And presuming that you want to make a profit, you would have the maximum number of flights that you could operate in a day, right? How many flights would that be in a day? 8 flights back to back for a full 8-hour day? 10 or 12 on weekends? And if you need to do safety briefings and loading/unloading at the dock for a half hour, you’re looking to potentially occupy the town owned wharf for half of the day for your business, no? Saying it is undetermined is avoiding a fair question—it is what I would call assertion of “the businessman’s Fifth Amendment” privilege against self-incrimination. You should at least disclose what the maximum number of flights per day would be. |
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#92 | |
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You are reading into things and letting your emotion get a hold of you. I stand by my comment that loading and unloading will not take any longer than a boat. You making a statement that I will be at the dock for a half an hour is incorrect. Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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subaruliving (05-21-2021) |
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#93 | |
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Town residents aren’t naive. We know what it takes to run a successful business. And a few minutes every couple hours at the dock doesn’t add up. |
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#94 | |
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I grew up in this town. I went to high school here. I have never made any accusations that the people of this town are not smart. That would be insulting myself. I could give a hypothetical like I did to the selectman and the fireman, but I cannot be specific because the business has not started. You know this you are just being an antagonist. Again I invite you to call me at anytime and discuss rather than be a keyboard warrior in disguise. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I feel like you are being extremely disrespectful. My hypothetical that I gave to the fire chief and copied the selectman on the email was an example that if there were business hours between 10:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m., just using that as an example (not specific at all) that my business plan was to never book more than one flight per hour. Again I ask for your name so we can keep this respectful and transparent. However, this is a distraction from the issue at hand which is asking the town to lower the docks posts. You are framing your argument as anti-business use of the town pier. There are businesses using the pier now. If your argument is anti-airplane then that is a completely different argument and discriminatory. Have a wonderful day. Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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jdavis (08-31-2021), subaruliving (05-21-2021) |
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#95 | |
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I am being as respectful as I can. Pressing you for answers is not disrespectful. You came onto a semi-public forum to plead your case. Expect to be pressed. You keep asking that we take this discussion private. But that is part of the problem you first encountered by trying to use town property for commercial purposes without meaningful public disclosure. The public should hear your answers and see this discussion. As you can see from my profile, I am a Tuftonboro island resident—pressing for more is just attempting to suppress discussion on this forum over something you, not I, need town approval for. |
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#96 | |
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It sounds like you've got the taking off/landing piece and other details thought out, but, as a boater who uses those public docks, I'm struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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DEJ (05-20-2021) |
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#98 |
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There are plenty of businesses that use the town owned wharf but do not base their business off of it. Like think said I also am struggling to see how it would be ok to base a business there. Guess time will tell, anyone know when the public hearing will be?
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#99 | |
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Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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subaruliving (05-21-2021) |
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#100 | |
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I am simply asking people not to discriminate against me. I'm only asking for the dock post to be lowered. My FAA approved operating certificate allows me to pick up and drop off anywhere that it is legal. There are no stipulations attached. Someone could reserve a flight from anywhere in the area and I would be able to pick them up and drop them off as long as I had access. I am simply asking for equal access to the town pier. I hope that message is loud and clear. Epic Seaplane Adventures |
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