Cost of fuel...

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But I’d care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. It’s also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeep’s I’ve had. Lot’s people can’t afford those either but I don’t see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people can’t afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You don’t have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I don’t know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I don’t know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But I’d care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. It’s also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeep’s I’ve had. Lot’s people can’t afford those either but I don’t see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people can’t afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You don’t have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I don’t know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I don’t know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

[granitebox]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

Its always an issue to me when someone references "I have a friend" or "I know a guy" or "I read that...."

I have a model 3, about 20,000 miles on it with no issues. Perhaps you really do know people who have nothing but problems but that's not representative of the car or the EV industry.

Consumer Reports - an unbiased review IMO rates the 2022 Tesla Model 3 as a recommended car - no small feat.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. That’s it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. I’m also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason I’m trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesn’t last long and can leave you stranded and doesn’t give much warning. And if it dies it’s not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/te...-win-2020/amp/

I don’t care for leases either. And don’t like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I can’t stand the thought of not actually owning my car. I’ve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that you’re better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I don’t buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesn’t.

[Winnisquamer]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. That’s it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. I’m also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason I’m trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesn’t last long and can leave you stranded and doesn’t give much warning. And if it dies it’s not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/te...-win-2020/amp/

I don’t care for leases either. And don’t like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I can’t stand the thought of not actually owning my car. I’ve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that you’re better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I don’t buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesn’t.

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by Winnisquamer

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Garcia

I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.

Not between gas and food... more often between gas and other expenditures/savings. We expect that they will spend more time in the coves and at the sandbars at anchor, and will avoid spending money in other ways.

The increase in gasoline prices means I have less earned income to invest.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Winnisquamer

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

Right. I’ve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought I’d do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). It’s so completely different. It’s like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for “cars” with no buyers remorse.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Right. I’ve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought I’d do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). It’s so completely different. It’s like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for “cars” with no buyers remorse.

I cant make one work here yet. We just sold an 2018 Tesla X 75D (business partner) for more than we paid 2 years later. Great car and a blast to drive but it batteries were not the new extra range and getting older. 20K to upgrade he said.

[Juiced06GTO]

All this banter over EV's and solar.....Can you guys all just keep an eye out for when the lightly used tirtoons w/250-300hp outboards start hitting the market and give me a heads up? I was thinking about dumping the funship and going toon anyhow, so maybe the gas prices will force a market flood....

[RUGMAN]

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by RUGMAN

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

This information is widely available. It varies and the numbers are different for everyone, but sometimes, it can make sense.

It will only make more sense as technology advances and fuel costs rise.

However, most people aren’t interested in doing the math (short and long term), they just find it easier to either be for or against EV with no mathematical reason.

Some are pretentious and others are stubborn.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by RUGMAN

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

$2,000 or maybe less, depending on your existing electric situation (you need a 220 line). Of course, this money is quickly returned in the form of lower cost/mile, and the charger lasts forever. The last time I did the math, electricity for an EV was about 30% of the price of gas, on an apples to apples basis. Numbers are probably more favorable for an EV today

[John Mercier]

Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?

Yes--definitely. A person should compare a Tesla S to a high powered full size sedan, or the upcoming Ford Lightning to the F-150. Also depends on your personal cost of electricity and gasoline. But in most any case, I think you're going to get the cost of the charger back long before you sell the car

[John Mercier]

Last auto I drove 12 years... just under 78,000 miles. Combined efficiency was around 35 mpg on an annualized basis; purchased for $10,800.

Current auto... six and a half years old... just under 45,000 miles, combined efficiency is around 40 (got as low as 37 mpg this winter with defrosting, but will hit 44 mpg during the summer)... purchased for $11,800.

I don't think the math quite works for me.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Last auto I drove 12 years... just under 78,000 miles. Combined efficiency was around 35 mpg on an annualized basis; purchased for $10,800.

Current auto... six and a half years old... just under 45,000 miles, combined efficiency is around 40 (got as low as 37 mpg this winter with defrosting, but will hit 44 mpg during the summer)... purchased for $11,800.

I don't think the math quite works for me.

And if you were, god forbid, T-boned by someone at 40mph

Which would you rather be in with your family.
Tesla Model X or Your 12 year old $11k car?

We all make our choices.

I don’t buy Tesla’s to just save gas, but that’s a nice perk.

One time the car swerved suddenly way away from the shoulder. Man in dark clothes walking in the road dark drizzle night no road lights. On coming car had just turned off my auto high beams. I never saw him until it would have been to late. The car saw him before I did and drove around him. My guess is my mirror would have hit him.

[John Mercier]

Both the old and new had good side impact ratings.
You have to remember... after everything/most things go electric... the only way to really gain ground will be for the Tesla to lose some weight.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Both the old and new had good side impact ratings.
You have to remember... after everything/most things go electric... the only way to really gain ground will be for the Tesla to lose some weight.

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

[Juiced06GTO]

For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.

[granitebox]

I'm getting a 12kW system installed at a cost of about $2.75/watt. I was very happy with that cost compared to other costs in the area.

The one huge thing with solar is you need to educate yourself. Solar installers possess the knowledge so they will suggest a system (or panels, or a specific invertor) that may or may not be what you want. Panel costs vary widely as does quality and efficiency at the end of the panels life (warranty) about 25 years. Panels do degrade in efficiency to the 80%s at the end of their life. Payback numbers I've seen are generally between 8-12 years depending on a variety of assumptions (these assumptions are almost always skewed in the installers behalf so again,) buyer beware.

On average, according to Solar Reviews - the average cost to install a system in New Hampshire is about $2.83/w.

https://www.solarreviews.com/solar-panel-cost

Get a couple opinions and quotes if you can.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Juiced06GTO

For anyone thinking solar, this is the quote I received to add a 12kw DC, 9.8KW AC system to my new barn. A 10kw AC system is the largest residential system they allow in Massachusetts. This includes net metering, enrolling in the new SRec program (not nearly as lucrative as the old program), and the federal tax credit which is 26% right now. The system would produce 101% of my current usage, less once I get the barn/workshop online.

This is for me to purchase it outright, no financing. Obviously financing it with interest is going to change your payback terms, as will great electric usage. The quickest payback is clearly purchasing outright, but the majority of people don't have a cool 44K to outlay to make that purchase. This company is local and has been in business for something like 15 years now, not one of the fly by night, disappear in a year companies, and is th eonly way I'd consider putting these on my house. I deal with plenty of solar companies in my line of work and have been burned by even the national guys, Solar City, Sunrun, and have no interest in supporting them.

Thanks for sharing your quote.
It’s frightening how much to spend on electricity over 20-25 years.

It’s a similar type quote I got from MassRenewables. Keep in mind. You ideally want to over size by 10-20% to cover NetMetering losses (20% loss on round trip to grid and back). If you are 101% you’ll end up paying 10-20%.

My ROI was quicker (6 years or so) with the better SRECs. I get back like $2-3K a year (at the start). But only for 10 years.

How did you get 12kw? Because it’s commercial?

Is there a residential limit in NH too?
I’d like to get 12kw in NH.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by LakeDad

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

I paid $96K for the Model X in fall of 2019.
With 27k miles on it now, they are giving $94K (plus tax) in trade !!!
I guess you’d call that “less so”.

Don’t kid yourself, Ford is good at stripping it down to the bone to get a low base model price to reel you in. You think the interior of the $40K base will be better than a Tesla? Does that even include a radio? Don’t forget dealer mark up BS.

A nicely packaged Lighting with a decent battery will be $70K+, fully loaded is $90K+ The Cybertruck will be more for the dollar. Guaranteed. Don’t forget with Ford, the middle man (dealer) gets $10K of that. And another $10K in advertising. Ever seen a Tesla ad?

I think interiors of Tesla’s are something like a Honda Accord or something. With all the glass (which can make cabin louder) and lack of knobs and buttons it can sometimes feel cheaper. It really isn’t. It’s not a Porsche inside but it’s not cheaply made. QA issues can also make it feel cheap when a plastic trim piece pops out. But they are built like a tank. The S/X is entirely aluminum. Crash tests show they are not cheaply built.

I think people are saving real Money on a Model 3 if they keep them long enough.

Ford recognized the dealership model is dumb and copying Tesla on that too.

Folks are not buying it for a statement. People that don’t know what it’s like to own one think that. They are just an absolute blast to own. Even with the hiccups, QA issues, ordering issues, high price tags people can’t get enough of them.

Conjecture and opinions. I stand by my own.
Buy what works for you.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by LakeDad

Tesla is like an extended beta program. I like their spirit and innovation—-I even like Elon Musk.
But the cars are expensive for what they are and the build/interior quality is subpar.

Most buy Tesla to make a statement—and that is fine—but nobody is saving any real, “end game” money by doing it. Many (not saying all) owners fool themselves to justify the purchase.

The depreciation is sharp (perhaps less so as of recent—but that is unnatural), the purchase price is considerably higher than a gasoline powered car with the same features, the maintenance costs are steep.

The tech just isn’t quite there yet. It is in no way cheaper to own a Tesla vs an equivalent with internal combustion.

I’ll eventually own an EV: The F150 Lightning is starting to show more reasonable costs, but I’m not paying a $25k premium for a Tesla vs an internal combustion car of the same size/features to save $5K in fuel…

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

Unfortunately, I hate driving... so ''fun'' would never enter my equation. I am still upset that they removed the crank down window option on new cars.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Some truth in here, but plenty not accurate and no need for snippy attacks:

I drove BMWs prior to my Tesla. I agree that Tesla is spartan, definitely not as luxe as BMW, Audi, Volvo. if i scored my Tesla on 10 or twenty criteria of luxury, it would be "overpriced" compared to the others. But the smoothness, quickness, and silence of Tesla make them WAY more luxurious than those other brands in total. I get into a friend's beautiful Audi, and it feels kind of rough.

You're dead wrong on depreciation and cost of maintenance. On depreciation, you need to subtract the $7500 rebate on the original purchase to do the math properly. On maintenance, Teslas have almost zero maintenance--no oil changes, tune ups, etc. I'm at my 5th anniversary this month, and all I've done is buy one set of tires. When you call Tesla and ask to come in for an "annual service", they say, "why bother...?".

For me, the total cost is approximately the same as I would spend spend on an internal combustion car. And as i noted in another post, VW and others are now making much less expensive EVs, so this is not restricted only to those who buy high end cars.

As for "making a statement" or needing to "justify" something, these are cheap shots, and I really have little interest in either. I got my car because it's good for the environment and also much more fun to drive than a BMW.

Ford Lightning will be awesome when it comes out. Torque will be WAY better than F-150, and the ability to use the batteries to power stuff on the go or to power your home during a blackout will be great

If you took these as “cheap shots”, that’s your own perception. I said it is exactly why SOME people buy them. I don’t recall specifically saying or implying that was why YOU bought one.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by RUGMAN

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

It’s a pretty wide range depending on what you want and what you have.

One house I had an existing 30A 240V heater in the garage, that I rarely used.
So I added an A/B switch and a 2nd outlet. Probably $100.00 and did it myself.

Other house I installed a Tesla Wall Connector. By luck I was able to put it right after the main house disconnect and added a sub panel. Probably $700 and did it myself. Professional might have been $1500.00-ish

There is a pretty wide range on charge rates. Faster rates are more convenient but not always required. If you drive 300 miles a day you might want the max 60A (to charge at say 30 mph) and you might not have the capacity, so it could cost $1000’s to upgrade your service. Or you drive 20 miles a day, you can use a 120V outlet and charge at a rate of 3 miles per hour.

Remember you typically charge while you sleep. As long as it’s ready by morning is all you need. Depends on how much you drive.

Rates in MA are much higher and you DO NOT save a ton. I save because I have Solar. Rates are better in NH. So you would probably cut fuel by 50%. It’s a lot of money to save that much on fuel. More you drive the more you save.

Sone parts of the country only pay like 0.08 Kw/h. NH is 0.17 KWh/h. MA is 0.26 kW/h.

With price if gas going up savings could potentially go much higher. But who knows where everything will settle long term.

Gas savings is only one reason to go EV. How they drive, the tech, the safety are other reasons.