5 Million Dollar Moultonboro Rec Center Proposal

[fatlazyless]

Even if an SB-2 petiton is successfully passed by a majority, it's still probably too late for this issue. The horse has already done run off, and it's just too late for fix'n the barn door.

A few people in each town who hold positions as selectmen, state reps, town managers: they really know the ins and outs of getting non-candidate issues passed, plus they are smarter than you & me, and have experience with the local town political aparatus.

In other words: they know very well what they are doing and how to get a yes vote on their issue.

Maybe, the answer is to move to Livermore NH, a relatively nearby town with a huge area and a population of zero or maybe just one person. i could be the mayor.......Mr Mayor fatlazyless....sounds nice!

Gee whiz....maybe zero prop taxes?

It says the last resident left town in 1949, so probably there's no interest for a fancy community center with an adult dodge ball league!

(Wikipedia has it.)

[Skip]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Even if an SB-2 petiton is successfully passed by a majority, it's still probably too late for this issue. The horse has already done run off, and it's just too late for fix'n the barn door...A few people in each town who hold positions as selectmen, state reps, town managers: they really know the ins and outs... In other words: they know very well what they are doing and how to get a yes vote on their issue...

Here we go again, creating controversy and conspiracy where neither exists.

The fine folks of Moultonborough that chose to show up at the March 2006 town meeting authorized warrant article 25 that allowed a committee of fellow citizens to expend up to $50,000 examining the entire recreational structure of the community, and make a series of recommendations to the community at a later date.

If you take but a few moments to explore the Town of Moultonborough website you will find that the committee met numerous times over the last two years publicly, and allowed and considered ample public input during their research process. The recreational facility discussed here was but one of a number of recommendations, a recommendation that has met considerable public opposition, enough opposition that the chairman of the committee making the recommendation forfeited his chairmanship.

There is no proposal for construction before the community. There is no warrant article authorizing the facility's construction on the agenda. There is simply a number of involved and concerned citizens in the community of Moultonborough having a lively and spirited public debate over an issue that apparently is of some importance to a number of residents.

And how do we know this? Because the debate and discussions are taking place in a public forum, appropriately covered by the local news media, that allows Moultonborough residents the ability to directly participate in the debate while allowing non-residents like us to speculate about the activity.

Sounds to me like an appropriate way for the government and the community to interact!

[longislander]

Kudos, Skip!!!

[fpartri497]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Even if an SB-2 petiton is successfully passed by a majority, it's still probably too late for this issue. The horse has already done run off, and it's just too late for fix'n the barn door.

A few people in each town who hold positions as selectmen, state reps, town managers: they really know the ins and outs of getting non-candidate issues passed, plus they are smarter than you & me, and have experience with the local town political aparatus.

In other words: they know very well what they are doing and how to get a yes vote on their issue.

Maybe, the answer is to move to Livermore NH, a relatively nearby town with a huge area and a population of zero or maybe just one person. i could be the mayor.......Mr Mayor fatlazyless....sounds nice!

Gee whiz....maybe zero prop taxes?

It says the last resident left town in 1949, so probably there's no interest for a fancy community center with an adult dodge ball league!

(Wikipedia has it.)

you got my vote

[fatlazyless]

Everything that Skip says is true and correct, with my emphasis on Skip's opening sentence; "The fine folks of Moultonboro that chose to show up at the March 2006 town meeting authorized.... ", and that is what SB-2 is specifically all about. SB-2 has many more residents engaged in voting for town items like a community center, than does the town meeting form of voting.

By reading thru the nearby Meredith SB-2 Petition thread, you can learn and compare the differences and advantages of SB-2 verses the 'town meeting' form of voting, and there are some big differences. Town meeting vote is a decision by the few, and SB-2 is a decision by the many, who are voters.

Skip can say that showing up at town meeting is their personal choice. And, I say it is also the voters personal choice to go with SB-2 or not. This choice is up to the majority in every NH town, and about 65 NH towns have switched to SB-2 with just three then later deciding to go back to the town meeting. SB-2 has been a local option since this state-wide law was passed in 1995.

And hey Skip, which very articulate poster on this forum has mentioned that he himself is also the town meeting moderator for his New Hampshire hometown? ....pssst, was his name 'Skip'?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Town meeting vote is a decision by the few, and SB-2 is a decision by the many, who are voters.

Reminds me of the line from a Rush song, " If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice".

Moultonboro's "choice" under SB2 in the case of a $5 million dollar Rec. center would be gold or platinum bathroom fixtures.......

[Skip]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

...And hey Skip, which very articulate poster on this forum has mentioned that he himself is also the town meeting moderator for his New Hampshire hometown? ....pssst, was his name 'Skip'?...

Oops, wrong once again FLL. I am the elected ward moderator for the city that I live in. A completely different position and set of responsibilities than the one you incorrectly attempted to connect me to....

[Lucky2Bhere]

From what I understand the Moultonborough tax rate will go up to pay for the community center. If most of the towns money comes from waterfront homes most of the bill will be paid by the seasonal residents who will use the center least or not at all. Is this fair?

[TomC]

Not sure fairness is part of the decision criteria! Why wouldn't a fulltime resident vote to pass something that will be useful to them, yet cost them little? Best tax is always the one the other guy pays, right?

[fatlazyless]

Ok ok ok Skip, it's not like I take written notes on this forum, I read the posts for education & entertainment & expression purposes or 'triple E' & after that I forget about them for a while. For me, the key word was moderator.

Anyway, as someone who knows quite a bit about New Hampshire laws, and political & election procedures, you add a lot to this forum.

Here's an SB-2 question for you. It is my understanding that the SB-2 law, created in 1995, can be used in NH towns but not in NH cities. What do you think the SB-2 creators were thinking when they wrote this law and why did they allow its' use in towns, but not in cities?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

. What do you think the SB-2 creators were thinking when they wrote this law and why did they allow its' use in towns, but not in cities?

I think the SB-2 creators knew full well that power had already been concentrated into the hands of few in cities and that city residents would jump at the chance to have the amount of say in the city's affairs as a town meeting member has. Distributing power from a mayor/council type government to a town meeting type government, would upset the well established patronage/hack system already in place.

On the other hand in towns, where any registered voter can speak up, and indeed truly affect change by squashing runaway spending, the creators of SB2 know that their roadblock is a first step on to truly inefficient city and state style government that is adept at picking your pocket.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by ITD

I think the SB-2 creators knew full well that power had already been concentrated into the hands of few in cities and that city residents would jump at the chance to have the amount of say in the city's affairs as a town meeting member has. Distributing power from a mayor/council type government to a town meeting type government, would upset the well established patronage/hack system already in place...

I respectfully disagree. And to also answer FLL's question, the handful of incorporated cities in New Hampshire operate under many different rules than
the majority of communities in NH, which are towns that operate under the town meeting or SB-2 form of government.

Quite frankly, if I ever move further north to a town in my homestate here, I would probably prefer an SB-2 community for a number of reasons...some already articulated by FLL, ITD and others.

However, in a City by incorporating and being granted a charter by the State a whole new environment exists, mainly due to the substantial size difference and complexity of the cities versus the towns in NH.

But even in a city a group of citizens always retain the right to petition for a charter change and revoke city status and return to a town form of government. Case in point? There are a group of citizens in the City of Somersworth currently exploring this option.

Buy even in a City a single citizen, or a handful of citizens can effect change. In my City of Dover a single citizen was able to open the books and reveal massive retirement fraud. Another handful of citizens instituted a petition drive and last fall at the City election were able to get the city charter amended and we now have a much needed tax cap in the City of Dover.

Yes, there is ample corruption, deception & ineptitude found throughout government. Just as there is in many of the private industries that dot our landscape. On the other side of the coin there are many folks in government, and the programs and departments they represent, that truly make NH the attractive state to live, love & play in that it is!

My point is that an informed citizenry is the best defense against perceived government run amuck. Many times a little research will reveal that no problem truly exists, or may reveal a scathig indictment of a system, as the retirement system fiasco was revealed in Dover.

The problem is simple. Too many folks, whether they live in a town or a city, take their voting privilege to lightly and fail to excercise their right to participate and make positive or effective change. When that occurs, government operates in a vacuum. And that vacuum has a tendency to "suck" our money!

I said it before and at the risk of being redundant I'll say it again....when it comes to the political shortcomings of our communities, our State or our Country we have met the enemy, and thet is us!

[fatlazyless]

Thanks for the 'no charge' opinion, Skip. I was thinkin' that If it was a 'fee for service' opinion, I'd be turnin' it in to the Town of Meredith at the same time that I turn in the two SB-2 petitions with the required minimum of 25 votes each. Town Hall.....that's where all the money is....and in Meredith, the town hall building was originally built to be a 1920's savings bank w/ teller's windows, so now it's the home of the real big money.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Skip

Yes, there is ample corruption, deception & ineptitude found throughout government. Just as there is in many of the private industries that dot our landscape. On the other side of the coin there are many folks in government, and the programs and departments they represent, that truly make NH the attractive state to live, love & play in that it is!

Skip, as always, you make fine points. I'd like to take a couple of your quotes out of order, although hopefully not out of context. In my last post, I am guilty of painting with a broad brush, insinuating that all city employees and politicians are corrupt. I do not believe this, nor did I mean to imply it. To you honest city employees and politicians, please accept my most humble apologies, I really do appreciate the sometimes thankless jobs you perform.

Originally Posted by Skip

But even in a city a group of citizens always retain the right to petition for a charter change and revoke city status and return to a town form of government. Case in point? There are a group of citizens in the City of Somersworth currently exploring this option.



My point is that an informed citizenry is the best defense against perceived government run amuck. Many times a little research will reveal that no problem truly exists, or may reveal a scathig indictment of a system, as the retirement system fiasco was revealed in Dover.

The problem is simple. Too many folks, whether they live in a town or a city, take their voting privilege to lightly and fail to excercise their right to participate and make positive or effective change. When that occurs, government operates in a vacuum. And that vacuum has a tendency to "suck" our money!

I said it before and at the risk of being redundant I'll say it again....when it comes to the political shortcomings of our communities, our State or our Country we have met the enemy, and thet is us!

I agree 100 percent.

Here is my problem. In some of the posts in this thread and elsewhere there seems to be an underlying current of feelings that SB2 is in some way a method to thwart groups of people who have taken the time (which is not much by the way) to understand and work within the framework of town meeting government to institute the change that they want. If they have figured out how to get their way at town meeting, what's to stop them from figuring out how to get their way with SB2? Nothing. In fact it's much easier to stop, change, amend warrant articles than it is ballot questions. Hence, it's much easier to stop these groups at town meeting than it would be at the ballot box.


Anyway, it seems to be comin' like a train wreck:

SB2, a more limiting form of goverment even with its good points, to replace traditional town meeting.

and

More taxes, to lower our tax burden.

You'll all have to excuse me for not understanding..............

[beancover]

The state of NH has discovered a gold mine on the shores of its lakes, inhabited by those who can afford to pay and by some who cannot. Having already over burdened property owners who live on the water with exponentially sky-rocketing taxes, they have now decided to break the backs of the residents who can see the water. They have a great formula, ie: tax the people the most, who use the services least and who have no voice. Sounds like a plan only a govt could actually get away with. Moultonborough politicians are obscene in their spending practices. You'd think they lie in bed at night figuring out new ways to spend taxpayers money. Just wait until the mortgage crises forces many of those waterfront owners out of their vacation homes and greedy communities are left holding the bag. Only then will the wanton waste and spending come back to haunt them. Who's going to pay for their new playthings then?
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[DREAMS]

Just to clarify, this major issue is no simply a $50,000 discussion and research project to keep folks in town busy! This was scheduled to be a 2008 warrant article for ballot vote.

Once again, the whole point of this project and wishes to spend town money on such a large capital project during a "recession". Weather you or the town father's want to admit or deny, the entire country as well as local economy is and has been in a recession. The housing market has been in a recession for over a year regardless of the sub-prime market. The recession is expected to continue for up to 18 months according to experts. Once again, the point as beancover said is that the huge tax rate and costs of living will fall on those year-round residents left behind currrently struggling for a roof over their head, food on the table and stable employment providing enough income to cover living expenses. Seasonal folks will come and go but the year round residents are forced to pay the bills year after year.

[MRJS]

One way to put the brakes on this boondoggle is attending town voting and meetings.

Tuesday, March 11, 7AM to 7PM, Town Election at Public Safety

Saturday, March 15, 9AM, Town Meeting at Moultonborough Academy

I'm against the rec center. Keep taxes as low as possible. Citizens always spend money more wisely than government. The government has a right to tax for necessities, but not for niceties.

A rec center is wonderful, everybody likes a rec center, however that is not the point. There are a lot of wonderful things in the world that money can buy. The point is, that after taxing for necessities, any further tax is stealing.