Lt. Dunleavy, NHMP, responds....

[Bear Islander]

Skipper,

I'm having trouble following your posts.

I support HB847 because I hope it will change the direction I see the lake going in. I don't believe it will "fix" the lake, just improve things a little bit.




I hope people on both sides of the issue show up at the hearing tomorrow and have their say where it really counts. I'd be there if I could.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Skipper,

I'm having trouble following your posts.
I support HB847 because I hope it will change the direction I see the lake going in. I don't believe it will "fix" the lake, just improve things a little bit.
I hope people on both sides of the issue show up at the hearing tomorrow and have their say where it really counts. I'd be there if I could.

Are you sure about that. I feel that Skippers posts are incredibly well written and well thought out. I think he does a fantastic job dispelling the myth that you keep perpetuating that the current laws don't address reasonable speed. If the current laws were followed we would have no issues. Making new laws that people will continue to ignore does nothing.

Bravo Skipper nice series of posts.

[Bear Islander]

There is no reasonable speed law. You know it, I know it, Skipper knows it. If you go to the hearing, try and convince the Senators there is a reasonable speed law!

[jrc]

Try to follow along. We already know that by rule any operation that is unsafe is illegal. So by using simple English the opposite of unsafe is safe, right? So only safe operation is legal right?


No comes the tricky part, is there a safe speed that is unreasonable? Nope, is there a un-safe speed that is reasonable? Nope, so in effect we have a reasonable speed law. You cannot legally travel at an unreasonable speed today.

Maybe you're right some politicians won't be able to follow.

We can of course do the same with the careless and negligent law.

To be honest, a reasonable and prudent law is really no change, it's redundant but I would not oppose it. It's the 45/25 portion of the law that is misguided and vindictive.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by jrc

Try to follow along. We already know that by rule any operation that is unsafe is illegal. So by using simple English the opposite of unsafe is safe, right? So only safe operation is legal right?


No comes the tricky part, is there a safe speed that is unreasonable? Nope, is there a un-safe speed that is reasonable? Nope, so in effect we have a reasonable speed law. You cannot legally travel at an unreasonable speed today.

Maybe you're right some politicians won't be able to follow.

We can of course do the same with the careless and negligent law.

To be honest, a reasonable and prudent law is really no change, it's redundant but I would not oppose it. It's the 45/25 portion of the law that is misguided and vindictive.

I understand the theory. We have a reckless driving law on our highways, why then do we need speed limits. In fact we can erase most of our highway laws and just keep reckless driving. Driving drunk is reckless, so we can eliminate the DUI statutes. NOT!

You can try and unscrew the inscrutable all day long but.... the is no reasonable and prudent boating speed law in NH.

[Mashugana]

Excellent work Skipper of the Sea Que. You didn't let Bear Islander's spins, spews and distractions get to you.

Great suggestion for Evenstar. A flag that always stays perpendicular to the water would help her be seen from a longer distance.

I'll echo everything jrc, GWC, hazelnut and TiltonBB said in their recent posts.

Thank you Skipper.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Mashugana

Excellent work Skipper of the Sea Que. You didn't let Bear Islander's spins, spews and distractions get to you.

Great suggestion for Evenstar. A flag that always stays perpendicular to the water would help her be seen from a longer distance.

I'll echo everything jrc, GWC, hazelnut and TiltonBB said in their recent posts.

Thank you Skipper.

You guys are priceless. Is this a comedy routine? Skipper posts several long rambling posts. Richard answered with a few sentences including wishing both sides luck at the hearing. And he is called to task for "spins, spews and distractions".

[Sandy Beach]

Originally Posted by Islander

You guys are priceless. Is this a comedy routine? Skipper posts several long rambling posts. Richard answered with a few sentences including wishing both sides luck at the hearing. And he is called to task for "spins, spews and distractions".

I admire Skipper of the Sea Que and the others that were on the side against the 45/25 m.p.h. limits. They showed remarkable self control. The thread was started by Skip to point to a Speed Limit letter by a Marine Patrol official who was directly involved in the speed testing. Then followed a barrage of posts from pro 45/25 limit supporters championed by Bear Islander. They challenged the MP statements and a heated exchange of posts ensued.

You are spinning right now Islander. Your poor buddy (Richard) Bear Islander's last message and a small percentage of others were so sweet. That notwithstanding he had a heap of posts with gyroscopic spin. There was massive spewing, many distractions and misdirections. Bear Islander ignored numerous questions and statements. Many of his posts had an undertone of ill will and insulted some respondents IMO of course.

The funny part is you look at just one message. You think that erases all the others he has authored. He was not taken to task for his last post. Get real.

Reasonable speed limits are reasonable. 45 m.p.h. day and 25 m.p.h. at night in many cases is not reasonable.

My thanks to The Skipper of the Sea Que and the others that are against this bill.

By the way. Has anyone ever seen Islander and Bear Island in the same place at the same time?

Good job Skipper
Let the debate end.
Sandy

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

598 messages ago Skip started this thread. He posted a link to a letter in the Union Leader by Lt. Dunleavy of NH Marine Patrol speed data untainted responding to allegations critical of Marine Patrol regarding HB 847 (the 45/25 proposed speed limit). Just look at what we did with that thread and information.

Many thanks for the show of support from those who found my posts beneficial. The feedback is/was appreciated.

I am not used to or comfortable with the style of debate exhibited in this thread. We do not have to agree on everything but we can discuss it calmly, rationally, in a friendly manner and with a little bit of fun thrown in. This thread was not enjoyable in my eyes.

As a long time Forum member I have looked forward to checking out this web site as often as I can. Not so since this speed limit harangue. I come here to read about and sometimes talk with old (as in long time) and new forum friends to share information, ideas, thoughts, experiences and enjoy all that this web site has to offer. Not to be insulted or called names and etc..

As for Bear Islander. He has demonstrated a few things to me (at least 2) to use his words, he claims to be an "obnoxious smart ass". Click that for his complete post.

In that same post Bear Islander's summation says it all: "If I ever get the chance to put in a plug to a large audience you can bet the farm it will not be about speed limits on Winnipesaukee. In the great scheme of things, it's just not that important." Amen

Let's hope that this is over and done with soon so we can concentrate on the fun and friendly aspects of the best site on the web, Winnipesaukee.com

Happy and SAFE boating to all. Bring on summer.

[Bear Islander]

I am repeatedly accused of calling people names. Twice in recent posts. I would certainly be wrong if I did, but I don't think I have.

It's a perception thing, you don't like what I say, so I must be calling them names.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Sandy Beach

By the way. Has anyone ever seen Islander and Bear Island in the same place at the same time?

I have! Why insinuate?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Sandy Beach

By the way. Has anyone ever seen Islander and Bear Island in the same place at the same time?

That would be easy, if in fact they really are the same person after all...

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

That would be easy, if in fact they really are the same person after all...

Another interesting conspiracy theory. Except that the Webmaster would know the truth, IP's are logged I believe.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Another interesting conspiracy theory. Except that the Webmaster would know the truth, IP's are logged I believe.

I know, just injecting a bit of humor...This theory went around before, although during the summer on the island it looked to be the same. I am sure this time of year it would be easy to tell.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I know, just injecting a bit of humor...This theory went around before, although during the summer on the island it looked to be the same. I am sure this time of year it would be easy to tell.

Humor to you I'm sure. Some readers may think its true.

[hazelnut]

APS?

Your constant incoherent rants are doing nothing for your case. Your pictures show nothing and prove nothing. A picture of a do not block driveway sign Your claims of 3 people dying? Show me the evidence? Still waiting for proof of that one.

So you want to have your cake AND eat it too. Whether or not people knew about the speed zones it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the majority of boaters DON'T regularly exceed 45mph. I am on the lake ALL SUMMER just about every day. I can tell you that this ridiculous thought that hundreds of boats are speeding around just isn't true!!! You can say it over and over it doesn't make it any more factual. How much are you even on the lake? So whatever you think about the data doesn't mean much to me. A smart person can look at the data and then compare that with what they actually witness on a daily basis and concur that speed is not the problem.

[jrc]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Humor to you I'm sure. Some readers may think its true.

What does it matter? Like many I can access several IP addresses. If I wanted sock puppets I could have them. Although sympathetic to speed limits, Islander is not as invested in the minutia of the arguments on this board as BI. They have different tones as well it's really hard to hide tone. I don't think we have a lot of imposters on the board.

Who could fake APS?

[Bear Islander]

On first reading I knew you must have in mind a different meaning for "sock puppet", so I looked it up on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29

[DoTheMath]

Acres Per Second - you're DONE! You have taken information from another post and put it up here in this one in hopes to gain some traction on your unfounded rants. Reason why you skipped out on that other thread!? Forget it, you have ZERO credibility with me and most others on this site that read your basic, factless, thinly veiled propaganda.

So, you have never heard of Wharton!? Glad you got the most out of that Brewster Education you speak so highly of... http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/

Your little 10' home-built boat that sunk when you were 17 is all you have for "performance boat" experience, well that plus what you read in the latest issue of whatever boating magazine you were able to pick up in your dentists office during your semi-annual visits. I know all about types, construction, hydro-dynamics etc... don't need pictures to show me. And if you don't have the disposable income to buy, own, etc... a real "toy" then what are you basing your viewpoints on!? I don't have the disposable income to buy a private jet, but I'm sure not going to bash them or the owners that do, just because they do.

Aside of that - don't EVER assume that you know me and that I have no "empathy" for anyone - I know the FACTS behind that accident that you posted the picture of and I know the people involved!! Maybe you can ask the kid in the sailboat that was sinking one day off Bear Island that I rescued, got his boat up on the beach and fixed for him what he thinks? Or maybe his folks - ask them... I bet they want to keel haul me for being so "unempathetic"!?

As for the poor choice - I was referring to drinking then getting behind the wheel of a boat.

Not that it matters but, been riding motorcycles since I was 9 years old, (I'm now 39) been on dirt, been on the street, been on the track, been over 140mph, I know all about speed, helmets and their usage - one saved my life one day - but thanks!

So, you're that good that you can tell me - without being there, in the boat - that the other boat "appears" to be a 1/2 mile away from us!?!? Hmmm - give me the mathematical formula you used for that please.

And I asked you about organized poker runs - not what you are assimilating to be a busy weekend that somehow you feel is a poker run. BTW, that picture you posted of the two boats passing the bass boat, do you (really) know how fast they were going? Do you (really) know how far away from each other they were? Did you pull out your fancy abacus / slide rule or whatever you used for the guess on my Delta distance to figure it out!? They could be just violating the 150' safe passage law, couldn't they!? Something I have seen 100x in a week by jet skis, bowriders and the like... again, thin at best.

I can make a car accident look like it was the fault of the driver, the driver of the other car, the squirrel that ran into the road, the radio - take your pick! Again, boating accidents happen - car accidents happen - planes crash - trains derail... Look at the facts and tell me what you know from first-hand experience and JUST THE FACTS! Don't spin 'em, skew 'em and twist 'em all up to make it seem like you know what you are talking about, or what you refer to is reality.

Seriously - please go back and read what you have been posting... you are sounding more and more like you are making this stuff up. It's not even fun anymore to debate these issues with you. It's like sitting in a room and watching Warren Buffett (you know who he is right, it's not the singer that is famous for Margaritaville ) and Jessica Simpson discuss the nuances of investment in domestic textile industries! You keep digging and digging and getting less dirt on your shovel!

[ApS]

Skipper,

You mentioned disliking the "speed limit harangue" .

"Harangue" is defined as: "harangue (n): A long pompous speech..."

Does the following qualify as a "harangue"?

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

Acres Per Second - you're DONE! You have taken information from another post and put it up here in this one in hopes to gain some traction on your unfounded rants. Reason why you skipped out on that other thread!? Forget it, you have ZERO credibility with me and most others on this site that read your basic, factless, thinly veiled propaganda.

So, you have never heard of Wharton!? Glad you got the most out of that Brewster Education you speak so highly of... http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/

Your little 10' home-built boat that sunk when you were 17 is all you have for "performance boat" experience, well that plus what you read in the latest issue of whatever boating magazine you were able to pick up in your dentists office during your semi-annual visits. I know all about types, construction, hydro-dynamics etc... don't need pictures to show me. And if you don't have the disposable income to buy, own, etc... a real "toy" then what are you basing your viewpoints on!? I don't have the disposable income to buy a private jet, but I'm sure not going to bash them or the owners that do, just because they do.

Aside of that - don't EVER assume that you know me and that I have no "empathy" for anyone - I know the FACTS behind that accident that you posted the picture of and I know the people involved!! Maybe you can ask the kid in the sailboat that was sinking one day off Bear Island that I rescued, got his boat up on the beach and fixed for him what he thinks? Or maybe his folks - ask them... I bet they want to keel haul me for being so "unempathetic"!?

As for the poor choice - I was referring to drinking then getting behind the wheel of a boat.

Not that it matters but, been riding motorcycles since I was 9 years old, (I'm now 39) been on dirt, been on the street, been on the track, been over 140mph, I know all about speed, helmets and their usage - one saved my life one day - but thanks!

So, you're that good that you can tell me - without being there, in the boat - that the other boat "appears" to be a 1/2 mile away from us!?!? Hmmm - give me the mathematical formula you used for that please.

And I asked you about organized poker runs - not what you are assimilating to be a busy weekend that somehow you feel is a poker run. BTW, that picture you posted of the two boats passing the bass boat, do you (really) know how fast they were going? Do you (really) know how far away from each other they were? Did you pull out your fancy abacus / slide rule or whatever you used for the guess on my Delta distance to figure it out!? They could be just violating the 150' safe passage law, couldn't they!? Something I have seen 100x in a week by jet skis, bowriders and the like... again, thin at best.

I can make a car accident look like it was the fault of the driver, the driver of the other car, the squirrel that ran into the road, the radio - take your pick! Again, boating accidents happen - car accidents happen - planes crash - trains derail... Look at the facts and tell me what you know from first-hand experience and JUST THE FACTS! Don't spin 'em, skew 'em and twist 'em all up to make it seem like you know what you are talking about, or what you refer to is reality.

Seriously - please go back and read what you have been posting... you are sounding more and more like you are making this stuff up. It's not even fun anymore to debate these issues with you. It's like sitting in a room and watching Warren Buffett (you know who he is right, it's not the singer that is famous for Margaritaville ) and Jessica Simpson discuss the nuances of investment in domestic textile industries! You keep digging and digging and getting less dirt on your shovel!

The reason for asking, is that we don't seem to be discussing the instability of high speed boating any more and there don't appear to be any worthwhile questions in all that above.

I'm reduced to placing more views of "tunnel-hull" undersides!

(At speeds well below DoTheMath's 110-MPH tunnel-hulled Skater, BTW).

[winnilaker]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Humor to you I'm sure. Some readers may think its true.

Here's some humor. I have decided to give up on the fighting the speed limit and join Evenstar. I think all motorized boats should prohibited. Using the logic from BI, that 35 is safer than 45, etc. zero HAS to be the safest speed.

So I wrote a letter to my rep and asked him to submit a bill next year to prohibit motorized boats in Winni. Statistics CLEARLY show there are more accidents in slower/smallers boats than larger ones, so let's just get rid of all of them. Island folks, sorry, better start getting in shape to paddle your way to them. Evenstar can probably put you on a good training program.

I'm going to use the same lobbying plan that Winnfabs uses and APS. I'll paint the gory picture of how unsafe motorized boats are and show gory pictures of the massacres. Tell how people fell off bowriders and get killed by props while enjoying the lake.

Then, I'll personally pay ARG (American Research Group) to conduct a survey, here are my questions?

Would Winnipesaukee be safer if motorized boats were not allowed?

Would you feel safe in a kayak if no motorized boats were around?

Etc.
Etc.

Then I'll pull in the Sail boats clubs to join my fight and have them recount ALL their horror stories of close calls with those pesky motorized boats.

Seriously, what rep wouldn't want to side with me? The stories, the stats, the survey, the associations are all on my side. It's a no brainer.

Now from my waterfront home, I can sit on my beach and have a conversation with my neighbor across the bay. What a perfect world. I'm sold.

[Gilligan]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Another interesting conspiracy theory. Except that the Webmaster would know the truth, IP's are logged I believe.

Surely someone with modest means or even vast personal wealth could afford 2 IPs. Even use a proxy.

What is it that you say Webmaster knows as truth?

Bear Islander must have been a used car salesman at some time. Say whatever it takes to make a sale.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...• There was 1 fatality involving a personal watercraft (jet ski) at a speed less than 20 mph in 2007..."

News to me, and I could have witnessed this fatality from my living room. Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

Originally Posted by KonaChick

"...Ok fair enough, I can't argue that logic. Now remind me once again how many fatalities we've had on the lake due to excessive speed...?

Please advise us why a performance boat flying into a Winnipesaukee cottage, killing three, doesn't count.

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

There is no "reasonable speed law" in New Hampshire.

Maine has "Reasonable and Prudent" written into their boating laws.

Long Lake users may be wishing for a 45/25. (Especially the 25 part).

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

So this speed limit is all Woodsy's fault?
All this time I thought he was against it.

Most of those opposed are their own worst enemy, even on shore. Who told us that, "Radar doesn't work on water"?

The first letter of commentary HERE is by "Moose" (not a member here).
Nobody has spammed boating and fishing sites like "Moose" but he states—h was for HB 847—before he was against it!

"...I used to be in favor of a speed limit until I found out how many "Lakes Region" businesses say that not letting boats go really fast would hurt their business..."
—"Moose"

Look for "Moose" to be trying to convince NH Senators of his genuiness.

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

"...I dislike PACs and I dislike the way many laws get enacted through the use of ad agencies and lobbyists..."

I notice most of the Marine Trade Associations begin their remarks with, "We have not taken a position on this". (Of course, that is supposed to give them credibility).

Originally Posted by Airwaves

So their solution?
DIVERT THE MARINE PATROL AWAY FROM SAFETY PATROLS!
What will be the impact of diverting manpower away from safety patrols and converting them to radar speed posts?
DIVERTING ALREADY THIN MANPOWER WILL MAKE LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE LESS SAFE!

Maybe in Massachusetts, they have "safety patrols". You don't want to be swamped, collided, or drowning in a New Hampshire lake. I'll go for days without seeing an MP on the lake—particularly on weekends. (Except when I call them—as I did when I saw two small boys in two small paddling boats roped together at dusk.)

Originally Posted by Mashugana

"...Great suggestion for Evenstar. A flag that always stays perpendicular to the water would help her be seen from a longer distance..."

New Jersey requires a flag for water skiers and kayakers, but has a thoroughly-enforced 30-MPH limit on its premiere lake!

Do they know Cal?

Dave R says that kayaks are not difficult to see—and I agree.

Who's correct?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

New Jersey requires a flag for water skiers and kayakers, but has a thoroughly-enforced 30-MPH limit on its premiere lake!

Do they know Cal?

If you're talking about Lake Hopatcong , it's a hundred miles from me and the size of Alton Bay , if that. Not even worth the effort to get there for me so needless to say , I know nothing about it.
Of course , why don't you mention the HP limit on Alcyon Lake , right in my hometown of Pitman. Electric trolling motors only.... on the entire three acres of lake

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

"...This thread was not enjoyable in my eyes...As a long time Forum member I have looked forward to checking out this web site as often as I can. Not so since this speed limit harangue..."

It's one thing to click on a debating forum clearly marked Speed Limits, and another to characterize one side of that debate as a "harangue". Many others await a favorable Senate decision for a boating rule for sanity. Those who do not post here, like my Wolfeboro-resident parents, are appreciative of all efforts for boating sanity.

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...You can't judge a whole group (or a "cult" as APS referred to us as... ) by one individual who made a poor choice one night...!"

...a poor choice? Like not coming to his victims' aid? Hiding his boat? Blaming the victims? Running away?

Unhappily, the Speed Cult has many cases of this "entitlement behavior". In recent years one fatality occurred at Chappaquidick—of all places.

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...And the GPS - who cares where that is located, it offers NO information pertaining to safe operation, it just tells you how fast you're going. Again, if you had any real experience with performance boats, you'd know that...All those "distractions"...oil & water...temp and pressure...fuel level, speed, tach, boost, volts, etc..."

Modern high speed transport offers "heads-up" displays on their windshields so that one's eyes stay aimed ahead. Today, there are wireless displays available for your helmet:



I'm recalling my own instructor's advice on buying helmets, "If you have a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet." Say...I don't see any helmets in your photo showing 110-MPH....

Originally Posted by chipj29

"...Maybe next you should post some pics of sailboat accidents that occurred somewhere around the globe..."

OK. Here's a US sailor struck by a speeding powerboat, making a new companionway:

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...So, you never addressed YOUR experience with performance boats!? Your "racer" that you built at Brewster...was it the little 10' footer I mentioned with the 15hp outboard on it...!?"

Your post appeared twice: it's answered here: http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=516

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...That is a boat that you see through the canopy - it was over 1 mile down, we slowed down long before getting to it..."

You're showing 110-MPH on GPS, and that boat appears to be ½-mile away, not 1 mile. You had less than 20 seconds to slow. What was going through the other boater's thoughts (and prayers)?

BTW: One of the early speed-record boats with a water brake ended up killing the operator when he used it.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

News to me, and I could have witnessed this fatality from my living room. Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

This was taken from the NH Bass Federation statement against the speed limit. I can send you the link to their facts sheet if you like, although I am sure you are too busy searching the net for additional pictures of GFBL's to add to the same 3-4 that you continue to post over and over.

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Please advise us why a performance boat flying into a Winnipesaukee cottage, killing three, doesn't count.

I am not familar with this one...Sounds like your typical crap to me. Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...This was taken from the NH Bass Federation statement against the speed limit..."

Link, please.

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...I am not familar with this one...Please scan-in some documentation of this revelation.

It's hardly a revelation to the people of Gilford: speed limit opponents GWC and SIKSUKR posted it at this very site:

Posted By: GWC...
Date: Monday, August 25, 2003 at 1:18 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Baja "gets air", hits car

"...Don't you "remember" the "professional" (doctor/lawyer type) that put their "go fast" into a cottage?

It ended up upside down in the cottage - apparently, the hull design, deep V, caused the boat to roll when it encountered the shore.

Sadly, death arrived at the scene, as well, if I remember correctly.

Followed by:

Posted By: Stinger
Date: Monday, August 25, 2003 at 4:54 p.m.

In Response To: Boat enters cottage - upside down... (GWC...)

It was a cigarette boat, traveling at high speed after dark. The boat hit a dock and flew into the air, flipped, and landed in a cottage, all three on board were killed..."

Followed by:

Posted By: SIKSUKR
Date: Thursday, August 28, 2003 at 7:44 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Boat enters cottage - upside down... (Sweeper)

I believe the accident that you refer to was driven by the owner of Davidson construction of NH.It was a high speed night incident and alcohol was involved.He was killed in the accident. SS

Bu-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-ttt...it doesn't count because the dock probably caused the launch into the cottage, and the cottage was probably too big a target and it was probably built too close to the water, and it was after dark, and the "driver" was probably drinking, and he was probably distracted and he probably was not observing the 150-foot rule and he probably didn't have his boater certificate, and nobody in the cottage was killed anyway...and it probably happened in an area known to be crowded...and it probably happened a long time ago...ad nauseum.

Originally Posted by codeman671

"...I am sure you are too busy searching the net for additional pictures of GFBL's to add to the same 3-4 that you continue to post over and over..."

Like this one?



This is a brand-new panorama image of the same ½-mile shoreline showing various people on two different days—fortunately. (The middle photo is a small rowboat pacing a teen gal swimming a "long swim".)

(Actually, I was preparing tomorrow's post here, but since you were kind enough to provide still another opportunity... )

Originally Posted by Cal

"...If you're talking about Lake Hopatcong...it's...the size of Alton Bay, if that..."

I can't speak to speeds on Alton Bay, but how did Lake Hopatcong happen to get such a serious speed limit of only 30-MPH? (And they ticket 35-MPH!) Does such an "exclusionary" law cause high-performance boaters to trailer to Lake Winnipesaukee?

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...In fact - your point in posting any of those pics...again, what's the point...!?"

Oh, I dunno. Trying to express the empathy that is missing for your less-important neighbors?

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

So this speed limit is all Woodsy's fault?
All this time I thought he was against it.

We've seen that most of The Opposition are their own worst enemy—even off the water!

Who was opposed to 25-MPH-Night (only) as early as in 2002?

Who was the first to educate us that, "Radar doesn't work on water"?

Who was the second to educate us on Radar? Excerpted:

"...the obvious visual deterrant of the MP boats in the first place which would probably slow someone down anyhow..."
—codeman671

Seems to corroborate one of the eight major errors in The Survey, doesn't it...?

Originally Posted by Skipper of the Sea Que

"...Let's hope that this is over and done with soon..."

"This?"

Watch for more "incidents" irrespective of the outcome this week.

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

"...I agree - common sense can't be taught..."

A speed limit violation comes with a fine and consequently, an insurance surcharge. Violating a sign like this one comes with a ticket for those who lack the common sense to park other than in front of your driveway:

Originally Posted by Evenstar

What is not logical is allowing powerboats to travel at unlimited speeds on lakes that are shared by small, slow moving boats.

Even boating on The Broads, I've been seeing a lot more tiny inflatables (smaller than this off-season inflatable off my dock) with whole families in them!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I can't speak to speeds on Alton Bay, but how did Lake Hopatcong happen to get such a serious speed limit of only 30-MPH? (And they ticket 35-MPH!) Does such an "exclusionary" law cause high-performance boaters to trailer to Lake Winnipesaukee?

I don't care if the speed limit on Hopatcong is 110 mph. It's not big enough to be worth a 100 mile drive to get there. It deserves a speed limit. It's not much bigger that a puddle.

[gtxrider]

Originally Posted by Cal

I don't care if the speed limit on Hopatcong is 110 mph. It's not big enough to be worth a 100 mile drive to get there. It deserves a speed limit. It's not much bigger that a puddle.

Having been on Lake Hopatcong on a weekend, trying to exceed 30 MPH would be like trying to speed on the Cross Bronx Expressway at rush hour! Not likely to happen!!

You cannot compare Jersey swamps, oops I mean lakes to Lake Winnipesaukee!

Its not speed that kills it is the sudden stop! You can have all the laws you want but that does not prevent people from breaking them. The 150' law is a prime example!!!

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Islander
I just checked and the two posts in question came 65 days apart. Even if I agreed with your interpretation, wouldn't it be a case of bad memory? Why do you assume its part of a plot? You are looking very hard to find fault when you are comparing posts that are months apart.

So if someone writes something 65 days ago, then REPEATEDLY tries to deny that they wrote it or attempts to deny he was trying to link high performance boats and the fear of a summer camp director that kids will be run down by boats doing 130 MPH then that’s okay because, what? He forgot what he wrote 2 months ago? Forgot to go back and look?

He denied writing it; he denied trying to link the two issues. Period.

Originally posted by APS

Yup...and the only boat to make such tragic headlines, too.

So are you saying the accident 33 years ago was the first fatal boating accident on Lake Winnipesaukee? Seriously, are you?

Originally posted by APS
Quote:

Huh??? Thirty years ago, cottages were sorta-still considered "off-limits" to 34-foot boats entering their dining rooms at high speed.

30 years ago drinking and driving was not a crime. Drinking and driving was something that was dismissed as bad judgment and anyone caught doing it was sent on their way. Today those standards, practices and laws have thankfully changed and you are responsible for your actions.

Originally posted by APS
FACT: Alcohol is in use on Lake Winnipesaukee.

Duh! Wait, there is already a law against Boating While Intoxicated!

Originally posted by Bear Islander
There are many other lakes that have horsepower limits and enforce them without to much trouble.

That’s true, and I can tell you personally, that as someone looking to expand waterfront holdings on lakes in NH that I have rejected three very nice properties that fit my criteria because they are what my family calls on “no fun lakes” , those that ban petroleum based motors, and even one where you were only allowed to use a PWC or waterski counter clockwise during certain hours of the day! RIGHT! I’m going to buy into something like that! Granted, the lakes or ponds were small but those restrictions, I believed were excessive and I didn’t buy. Looking to make Lake Winnipesaukee something like that and I'll leave here as well and I don't own a high performance boat!

Again, I call on the speed limit crowd to tell me, if safety is the actual concern why not adopt Rule 6?

ADOPT RULE 6 AND BOTH SIDES GET WHAT THEY SAY THEY WANT!

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Bu-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-ttt...it doesn't count because the dock probably caused the launch into the cottage, and the cottage was probably too big a target and it was probably built too close to the water, and it was after dark, and the "driver" was probably drinking, and he was probably distracted and he probably was not observing the 150-foot rule and he probably didn't have his boater certificate, and nobody in the cottage was killed anyway...and it probably happened in an area known to be crowded...and it probably happened a long time ago...ad nauseum.

Are you serious?A drunk guy drives his boat into a cottage at night and you use this example to show a need for a speed limit?If you believe a speed limit would have changed his behavior that night than there really is no reasoning with you.Wow,were really reaching now!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Are you serious?A drunk guy drives his boat into a cottage at night and you use this example to show a need for a speed limit?If you believe a speed limit would have changed his behavior that night than there really is no reasoning with you.Wow,were really reaching now!

The drunk operator would not have hit that house if he was boating elsewhere. A speed limit may cause him to boat elsewhere. A horsepower limit certainly would.

This is a major point you guys keep missing.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The drunk operator would not have hit that house if he was boating elsewhere. A speed limit may cause him to boat elsewhere. A horsepower limit certainly would.

This is a major point you guys keep missing.

It's official ha ha ha ha ha ha

We've gone from sane point counterpoint to pure insane speculation.

I'm putting so many laugh faces to indicate the reality that I just laughed so hard I spit water all over my screen... ha ha ha ha ha

By far the best post on this entire forum I have ever seen. I'm printing this one and hanging it on the wall.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

It's official ha ha ha ha ha ha

We've gone from sane point counterpoint to pure insane speculation.

I'm putting so many laugh faces to indicate the reality that I just laughed so hard I spit water all over my screen... ha ha ha ha ha

By far the best post on this entire forum I have ever seen. I'm printing this one and hanging it on the wall.

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

Even if they enacted a horsepower limit, which I sincerely doubt they would, it would have to only cover boats that were produced after the date the law was enacted. I am going to assume that the boat that crashed into the house was produced before today, no?

They're not going to enact a law that renders their own residents' possesions illegal and nearly worthless, it just would never happen. Given that, it would take at least 20 years, if not more, to get the high power boats off the lake with a HP limit, since it would take that long for them to wear out. In fact, they'd probably last even longer since there would be added incentive to keep them up.

Once again, the driver was drunk, and that is already illegal, and IMO the most egregious boating violation you can commit. If you're willing to get in your boat drunk and take a nighttime cruise, I'm sure that there are very few laws that you would even consider following.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chmeeee

They're not going to enact a law that renders their own residents' possesions illegal and nearly worthless, it just would never happen. :

It has happened before many times, it will happen again. Many years ago I was involved with another lake passing similar limits. At the hearing many residents asked who is going to pay for their useless boats. The unspoken answer was nobody.

Besides a horsepower limit doesn't make your boat worth less. Sell it, or use it elsewhere.

In this accident scenario we are supposing that a speed limit or horsepower limit was in place at that time. I thought that was obvious.

The point is that once you regulate a boat off of the lake it can no longer have accidents here. And a boat that leaves voluntarily because of a speed limit can't be involved in accidents either. Problem Solved!

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

I'll bite on this one... So, say there was a - what... 500hp limit!?!? Will that work in this case!? Yup! ok - so, how about a 20' boat with saaaaayyyyy a 250hp outboard motor that could travel at 75mph!?

Like this one: http://www.hydrostream.com/models_voyager.html

(Insert remaining data from situation here and you have your answer).

NEEEEEXT!

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

I'll bite on this one... So, say there was a - what... 500hp limit!?!? Will that work in this case!? Yup! ok - so, how about a 20' boat with saaaaayyyyy a 250hp outboard motor that could travel at 75mph!?

Like this one: http://www.hydrostream.com/models_voyager.html

(Insert remaining data from situation here and you have your answer).

NEEEEEXT!

Are you arguing for even lower HP limits? How do your numbers work for 10 HP. Many NH lakes have 10 HP limits. Personally I think that low is unnecessary.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Are you arguing for even lower HP limits? How do your numbers work for 10 HP. Many NH lakes have 10 HP limits. Personally I think that low is unnecessary.

NO - I am saying that your argument for a horsepower limit offers no potential avoidance for this accident. If he was driving a boat with 1,000 hp or 250hp., he was DRUNK and that was the cause of the accident - not the hp.

And if a particular boat is regulated off or leaves voluntarily - you think that will prevent and solve ANY accidents from happening!? Brotha' - I need some of whatever it is you are smoking - it must be THAT good!

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

I can't...... ha ha ha ha ha ha still laughing..... ha ha ha ha the silliness, the speculation.... too much to compute..... overload..... ha ha ha ha ha

I have another one for you. Maybe if God made the lake different and moved the island slightly to the left..... ha ha ha ha ha

Sorry.... I just can't stop laughing at that post.

Especially because drunks behind the wheel are SO law abiding.

OK ha ha ho ok please give me the made up limits that you have in mind and I will concoct a tale to fit within your numbers.

Still howling... one things for sure this thread has given us some good laughs.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Especially because drunks behind the wheel are SO law abiding.

Take a deep breath and think of something not funny. Like the upcoming vote in the Senate.

Then take just a minute to outline a scenario that fits the criteria. Remember they are a drunk operating a Cigarette boat at high speed that ends up hitting a cottage and a triple decapitation, on a lake with a 300 horsepower limit. The horsepower limit is fictional, the rest is factual.

[jrc]

Can someone post a link to any information on this three head decapitation? It's not that I don't beleive it but wow that's one heck of an accident.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Take a deep breath and think of something not funny. Like the upcoming vote in the Senate.

Then take just a minute to outline a scenario that fits the criteria. Remember they are a drunk operating a Cigarette boat at high speed that ends up hitting a cottage and a triple decapitation, on a lake with a 300 horsepower limit. The horsepower limit is fictional, the rest is factual.

Hey thanks you already did it for me.... ha ha ha ha

Three drunks launch a cigarette boat on winni for the day and drive it up on land and die.

Oh wait too improbable for you? I mean three drunks wouldn't disobey a law ould they?

Ok how bout this 3 guys in a 20 foot Skeeter with a 200hp go out fishing for the day. Unfortunately these guys like to drink while they fish. Well after 8-10 beers each they figure what the heck lets see what she'll do. It has gotten dark and they were a bit farther out than they originally planned. On the way back to the docks whamo they hit the shore launch it and at over 70MPH all were killed instantly.

I used a fishng boat for this example because we aren't targeting one type of boat are we BI.


Still laughing at the original post...

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Three drunks launch a cigarette boat on winni for the day and drive it up on land and die.

Oh wait too improbable for you? I mean three drunks wouldn't disobey a law ould they?

We are talking about a real accident with a Cigarette boat and three deaths.

So in your scenario the owner didn't know there was a horsepower limit? Or he knew and decided to launch the boat anyway? Nobody at the launch ramp told them about the limit? Nobody called the Marine Patrol when they saw the Cigarette boat on the lake? The Marine Partrol were not in Meredith Bay that day?

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

We are talking about a real accident with a Cigarette boat and three deaths.

So in your scenario the owner didn't know there was a horsepower limit? Or he knew and decided to launch the boat anyway? Nobody at the launch ramp told them about the limit? Nobody called the Marine Patrol when they saw the Cigarette boat on the lake? The Marine Partrol were not in Meredith Bay that day?

So are you dismissing the second scenario? I mean we're not targeting a particular type of boat ARE we?

Wow the true colors are showing through......

Further clarification to avoid the inevitable. You maintain that the HP limit and Speed Limit would prevent an accident like this. Get a clue it doesn't have to be a "cigarette" boat. I gave you an example but I'm sure they'll be some spin......

...waiting to laugh......again.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

It's official ha ha ha ha ha ha

We've gone from sane point counterpoint to pure insane speculation.

I'm putting so many laugh faces to indicate the reality that I just laughed so hard I spit water all over my screen... ha ha ha ha ha

By far the best post on this entire forum I have ever seen. I'm printing this one and hanging it on the wall.

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

When you stop laughing can you explain how the accident could have happened if the lake had a horsepower limit?

I'm pretty sure I did that already but I'll give it to you again. A 200hp motor can power a bass boat at breakneck speeds.... Some of them top over 70mph. What is the difference if it was a cigarette boat or a bass boat? If there was a horsepower limit it wouldn't matter. Lives could still be lost. Tell me you don't agree that a 70mph bass boat could kill three people, either on the boat or on land?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I'm pretty sure I did that already but I'll give it to you again. A 200hp motor can power a bass boat at breakneck speeds.... Some of them top over 70mph. What is the difference if it was a cigarette boat or a bass boat? If there was a horsepower limit it wouldn't matter. Lives could still be lost. Tell me you don't agree that a 70mph bass boat could kill three people, either on the boat or on land?

No you have not answered the question. There are no Bass boats in this scenario.

We are talking about a REAL accident that killed three people on Winnipesaukee. A Cigarette boat at high speed. The question is would a horsepower limit have prevented that accident?

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

No you have not answered the question. There are no Bass boats in this scenario.

We are talking about a REAL accident that killed three people on Winnipesaukee. A Cigarette boat at high speed. The question is would a horsepower limit have prevented that accident?

I believe he already answered the question, but I'll answer it as well:

No.

To say otherwise is to imply that a 200 to 300 hp boat could not possibly strike land and kill its occupants, when of course it could. What do you think would happen to me if my 260 hp boat struck a rocky shore at its maximum speed of approximately 52 mph? If you ask me, I would say the most likely scenario would be death. Survival would be pure luck.

Why are there no bass boats in this scenario? Does your horsepower limit also contain a ban on bass boats?

[chipj29]

The point that BI is trying to make is that if there had been a horsepower limit in place, that particular boat would not have been on the lake, therefore the accident would have been prevented. In his eyes anyway.

In my eyes, the accident still would have happened, just on a different boat. Many many boats, with a lot less than 300 HP have the power and speed to get in that same accident.

[Woodsy]

BI,

Your logic path is so FLAWED it amazes me! It's your position that had there been HP Limits in place in 1975, this boat would not have been on Lake Winnipesaukee and therefore this horrific accident would not have occurred and 3 people might be alive? Correct?

By following that same logic, IF the operator of the boat in question had not been drinking, and was sober the accident would not have occurred! (we already have BWI laws)

(This same logic can be applied to the Littlefield/Hartman accident as well)

We can further extrapolate: Had the operator in question been operating another lower HP boat drunk, all things being equal, the accident still would have occurred.... and 3 people would still be dead! Reference the accident last year when the boat ran up on Eagle Island... It was not a high HP boat and it went quite aways onto Eagle Island! But for the grace of God, (I firmly believe he has a soft spot for Fools) those darn DRUNKEN kids are alive to tell the tale!

Most accidents that involve alcohol would not occur if you removed the alcohol from the equation! Show me a fatal high speed collision (boat or land)that occurred on Lake Winnipesaukee with a SOBER operator....

I will be waiting patiently for your reply!

Woodsy

PS: For the record, a 1975 Cigarette didn't go faster than 60-65MPH.... it probably had twin 454's with TRS drives... they were amazingly HEAVY boats and those Drives took alot of HP to spin.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The drunk operator would not have hit that house if he was boating elsewhere. A speed limit may cause him to boat elsewhere. A horsepower limit certainly would.

This is a major point you guys keep missing.

But I thought the speed limit wasn't about regulating a certain type of boat off the lake?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by chipj29

But I thought the speed limit wasn't about regulating a certain type of boat off the lake?

Here we go again!!!

The speed limit is NOT about regulating a certain type of boat of the lake. I support a speed limit.


************************************************** ******


As a TOTALLY SEPARATE MATTER I personally believe in a horsepower limit. My idea is a 300 HP limit for boats made after 2008. This idea would keep high performance boats and cruisers from coming to the lake. And, over time, virtually eliminate them.


************************************************** *****

Now this is a third TOTALLY SEPARATE ARGUMENT

The recent exchange is about how do you prevent a drunk operating a Cigarette boat at high speed from hitting a cottage and killing people. The answer is simple, don't allow him on the lake in the first place.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Here we go again!!!

The speed limit is NOT about regulating a certain type of boat of the lake. I support a speed limit.


************************************************** ******


As a TOTALLY SEPARATE MATTER I personally believe in a horsepower limit. My idea is a 300 HP limit for boats made after 2008. This idea would keep high performance boats and cruisers from coming to the lake. And, over time, virtually eliminate them.


************************************************** *****

Now this is a third TOTALLY SEPARATE ARGUMENT

The recent exchange is about how do you prevent a drunk operating a Cigarette boat at high speed from hitting a cottage and killing people. The answer is simple, don't allow him on the lake in the first place.

What's to stop a drunk from driving a truck into a house? I guess we should also ban trucks from driving through town so this can't happen either. Man your logic is horrible.

[EricP]

Originally Posted by chipj29

But I thought the speed limit wasn't about regulating a certain type of boat off the lake?

It really is but some people just won't admit it no matter how obvious it is

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

The drunk operator would not have hit that house if he was boating elsewhere. A speed limit may cause him to boat elsewhere. A horsepower limit certainly would.

This is a major point you guys keep missing.

Nice try.HE OWNED A HOUSE ON THE LAKE.Please tell me what part of him being drunk and having a speed limit would have changed that situation.I can't even believe what I'm reading here.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Nice try.HE OWNED A HOUSE ON THE LAKE.Please tell me what part of him being drunk and having a speed limit would have changed that situation.I can't even believe what I'm reading here.

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

*shouting*
Horsepower Limit!

The only one talking about a horsepower limit here is you. We are talking about a speed limit.

How is a speed limit going to drive these people away, when most of them live on or near the lake?

Does a speed limit stop people from owning and driving a fast car? The base Corvette has a top speed of 186 miles per hour. Thats a fairly popular car in New Hampshire, where the highest speed limit is 65 mph, or 34% of the Corvette's max speed.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

I find this post offensive and rude in nature.

I am officially registering my complaint now.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Horsepower Limit!

Dear Islander,

Please tell me who posted this and please tell me if I see it correctly. Is it in all bold with exclamation points? Please once again I request that you remove your rose colored glasses. I admire that you are sticking up for your friend but please butt out as it I never addressed you in the first place. Your comments are unwanted and biased. This is the last time I will address the issue, please refrain from getting involved. Bear Islander is a big boy and he can handle himself....