Boating Accident/Death off Diamond Island

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by kthy66

2Blackdogs you really need to come out of your shell hon and tell us how you really feel...

More info this morning in the Citizen

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...824/-1/CITNEWS

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

[Jeti]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

Number of units drunk - Number of hours since last drink = Alcohol content

For example: A person drinks 6 pints of an ordinary strength beer (12 units), finishing drinking at 11pm. They start work at 8am the following day. (9 Hours later).

12 Units - 9 hours = 3. In this scenario, the person could still have 3-4 units of alcohol left in their body whilst driving to work the following day - risking both Police prosecution and the safety of others. 3-4 Units will bring most men to the USA legal driving limit of 80mg/dl and 3 units for most women.

[Newbiesaukee]

Although there is some variability, two points on the curve and knowledge of alcohol metabolism, etc. would allow you to extrapolate and come up with an accurate estimate of alcohol blood level at the time of the accident.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

It looks like they did not take samples for 9 hours after the crash. Is it possible to get an accurate reading after that amount of time passes?

I assume they took two samples an hour apart to determine the time but how accurate can that be?

Jeti & Newbi have answered your question correctly. The procedures utilized by the NHMP to obtain the two samples over a fixed time are well established and Court accepted practices.

Once again (hateful diatribes to the contrary) the NHMP appears to be following all accepted protocol in what appears to be a thorough and fair investigation.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Skip

Once again (hateful diatribes to the contrary) the NHMP appears to be following all accepted protocol in what appears to be a thorough and fair investigation.

Well said Skip. The realists know it will be thorough and fair. However, the conspiracy theorists on this forum have already concluded that the results of the investigation (should said results not determine the outcome that said theorists hope for), will have been fixed. Atrocious.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Well said Skip. The realists know it will be thorough and fair. However, the conspiracy theorists on this forum have already concluded that the results of the investigation (should said results not determine the outcome that said theorists hope for), will have been fixed. Atrocious.

They pretty much have to, they're only concerned about one issue, and it's become very apparent that their only real focus is a certain boating niche. Since the Littlefield accident is usually part of every heated discussion by a couple of these "concerned citizens", I can only think that that accident blinded them permanently. Speed wasn't a biggie in that case, alcohol was. The fact that he was piloting a Baja made their eyes permanently red whenever they see a GF boat. Regardless of all the boating accidents that happen resulting from alcohol, the only dangerous boaters in their mind are the GF crowd. It's more of a vendetta for a select group, some others just joined because it seemed like the thing to do. But when you talk about enforcement and existing laws being broken, they all clam right up.

There are some very good and decent people on board that support the speed limits. There are a couple of real flakes that appear to be blinded by hate. Reason be darned. Their comments from the beginning of this developing story are downright sickening.

[Steveo]

The reports stated that she was traveling southeast headed toward Sleepers. I'm trying to understand two things, First, where on the island did she hit. Was she attempting to go between Diamond and Rattlesnake and hit on the north side of the island or was she attempting to go betwen Diamond and the mainland and hit the west side. And second, was she coming from Wolfeboro (Wolfetrap) or from Pentleton Beach at the time.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Steveo

The reports stated that she was traveling southeast headed toward Sleepers. I'm trying to understand two things, First, where on the island did she hit. Was she attempting to go between Diamond and Rattlesnake and hit on the north side of the island or was she attempting to go betwen Diamond and the mainland and hit the west side. And second, was she coming from Wolfeboro (Wolfetrap) or from Pentleton Beach at the time.

I believe they had been in Wolfeboro earlier, gone to Pendleton, and were heading south back to Sleepers. I think that as you are heading towards the northern end of Diamond, she hit on the left side of Dr. Rock's log cabin a few hundred feet down. I have not been to the scene as I see no reason to, but have been to Dr. Rock's place before.

[NASCARNH]

Originally Posted by Steveo

The reports stated that she was traveling southeast headed toward Sleepers. I'm trying to understand two things, First, where on the island did she hit. Was she attempting to go between Diamond and Rattlesnake and hit on the north side of the island or was she attempting to go betwen Diamond and the mainland and hit the west side. And second, was she coming from Wolfeboro (Wolfetrap) or from Pentleton Beach at the time.

I took these pictures the morning of the crash. I was fishing out of Ames Farm and could see that there had been a mishap on Diamond.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by NASCARNH

I took these pictures the morning of the crash. I was fishing out of Ames Farm and could see that there had been a mishap on Diamond.

Great shots. I thought it hit to the other side of Dr. Rock's. I have not been down at all to see the scene.

[Lake Boater]

It is sad that the loss of human life in this tragedy as well as serious injuries are over shadowed by people shouting about their own agenda`s. I have painfully read all these comments and it just proves that humans are extremley more ignorant at times then compassionate. I have been boating on Winni since I was 5 years old and have had my own boat up there for the last 25 years. Yes the lake has changed and unfortunatly so have the people that live on it and use it. For the good or the bad it is what it is.90% of you people making these comments about speed/drinking/not paying attention or Erica Blizzards stand on issues and beliefs, should look at yourself in the reflection of such a beautiful lake we are so fortunate to have and ask yourself what if it was my family going through this.Lets turn our thoughts and prayers to the injured and the dead and let the politicians do what they are so good at, and that is being ignorant idiots carrying soap boxes and setting them where anybody will listen. Boaters as a whole are a big family so lets all stop the finger pointing and turn our efforts into helping with the healing process....... Again this is just my opinion.. and I am not afraid to sign my posts..

Rich Turcotte

[2Blackdogs]

Codeman, I have been to the scene. The details below are for the lower photo only.

The impact area is a bright pink smear, about the size of those plastic wading pools. It lies hidden mid-way between the twin-outboard boat and the blue crane in the lower photo. It lies hidden behind that boat, and is not 6' tall, as reported here on day one.

The anchor-strike location is a dent below the living room window at the end of the white, J-shaped, object which may be a canopy or awning of some sort. The photo is dark, so it could be the "radar bar" of the crashed boat.

(Or, the house's middle window of the three grouped above the twin-outboard boat).

[sa meredith]

...talk about a thread that many people are turning to, to find the latest information about a terrible event turning into mindless dribble.

[webmaster]

The comments on signing posts have been moved to their own thread.

Please don't hijack.

[NHKathy]

Originally Posted by sa meredith

...talk about a thread that many people are turning to, to find the latest information about a terrible event turning into mindless dribble.

and as I said in an earlier post (on another page!):

This thread has gotten WAY out of hand...
This site is where to go for a source of valuable info about the Lakes Region, but every day when I log in lately, this thread is always there on top as having the newest post, and it's mostly (not all) just back and forth arguing - hardly any new, informative information...
There are almost 300! posts in this thread, and a handful or maybe a dozen or two, are actually informative!
My condolences go out to the families involved, and prayers for recovery to the 2 women that were injured.
Any new update on those injured?

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

They pretty much have to, they're only concerned about one issue, and it's become very apparent that their only real focus is a certain boating niche. Since the Littlefield accident is usually part of every heated discussion by a couple of these "concerned citizens", I can only think that that accident blinded them permanently. Speed wasn't a biggie in that case, alcohol was. The fact that he was piloting a Baja made their eyes permanently red whenever they see a GF boat. Regardless of all the boating accidents that happen resulting from alcohol, the only dangerous boaters in their mind are the GF crowd. It's more of a vendetta for a select group, some others just joined because it seemed like the thing to do. But when you talk about enforcement and existing laws being broken, they all clam right up.

There are some very good and decent people on board that support the speed limits. There are a couple of real flakes that appear to be blinded by hate. Reason be darned. Their comments from the beginning of this developing story are downright sickening.

I don't think the controversy that has taken place since the accident is pro-speed limit against anti-speed limit. The pro limit-regulars have not posted negative. This is mostly a new group more interested in the accident than in HB847.

An accident like this will draw a crowd. Like the crowds that hang around the court house when a big name trial is taking place. There is no courtroom yet so they hang around this forum. This thread has has 27,000+ views in a week and a half.

I personally believe we should wait for more information and let feelings cool before trying to dissect what happened. In any event it is only one accident. One accident should not make OR break speed limits no matter what happened.

I think Lt. Dunleavy will do his job and go where the evidence leads him.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I don't think the controversy that has taken place since the accident is pro-speed limit against anti-speed limit. The pro limit-regulars have not posted negative. This is mostly a new group more interested in the accident than in HB847.

An accident like this will draw a crowd. Like the crowds that hang around the court house when a big name trial is taking place. There is no courtroom yet so they hang around this forum. This thread has has 27,000+ views in a week and a half.

I personally believe we should wait for more information and let feelings cool before trying to dissect what happened. In any event it is only one accident. One accident should not make OR break speed limits no matter what happened.

I think Lt. Dunleavy will do his job and go where the evidence leads him.

Well regarding your assessment, I agree with you BI. But if you look at the various posts from way back to current, you'll note that almost every single accident has one thing in common. That one thing is not speed.

Some people are pretty PO'd by this accident, well, not really. They are using the "WHO" to demonstrate their complete ignorance of boating accidents, past and present. They really do believe that this accident strengthens their pro speed limit case. I know they are really PO'd at the thought that the possible outcome will be that, once again, they are wrong.

They, have an agenda. Safety isn't that agenda. Kinda like the two party political system, birds of a feather may unite, but scoundrels often take center stage. You already know two of the scoundrels.

In case I haven't mentioned it specifically, I personally think you're good people.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I don't think the controversy that has taken place since the accident is pro-speed limit against anti-speed limit. The pro limit-regulars have not posted negative. This is mostly a new group more interested in the accident than in HB847.

An accident like this will draw a crowd. Like the crowds that hang around the court house when a big name trial is taking place. There is no courtroom yet so they hang around this forum. This thread has has 27,000+ views in a week and a half.

I personally believe we should wait for more information and let feelings cool before trying to dissect what happened. In any event it is only one accident. One accident should not make OR break speed limits no matter what happened.

I think Lt. Dunleavy will do his job and go where the evidence leads him.

BI,

Great words, great advice and a great post!

Folks, please wait for the facts and trust that the authorities will do a thorough and complete job. We all need to be fair and react to facts, not speculation.

Things are in good hands and we should not jump to any conclusions.

R2B

[Sandy Beach]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

BI,

Great words, great advice and a great post!

Folks, please wait for the facts and trust that the authorities will do a thorough and complete job. We all need to be fair and react to facts, not speculation.

Things are in good hands and we should not jump to any conclusions.
R2B

I agree with BI and R2B.

All we really know is that a terrible tragedy took place. I feel badly for all those touched by the event.

We do not know the cause. Some people and alleged news reporters are quick to judge and draw conclusions. They would rather sensationalize the story instead of reporting unbiased facts.

I'm not yet convinced that this is an accident! IMHO it is too much of a coincidence regarding the timing and people involved. It would be horrific if foul play was involved but it is a possibiliy.

It was a new boat with dealer plate. It could have been a malfunction. A magnet of some sort altering the compass. An electrical mis-calibration throwing the chartplotter off. Was there a failure of the throttle or steering or both? There are so many possibilities besides alcohol and speed. Let the authorities investigate and report.

In the meantime, pray for all those affected. Whatever the cause is, this is a sad event for everyone.

[RI Swamp Yankee]

Originally Posted by Sandy Beach

... It could have been a malfunction. A magnet of some sort altering the compass. An electrical mis-calibration throwing the chartplotter off. Was there a failure of the throttle or steering or both? There are so many possibilities besides alcohol and speed. ....

No matter what the machinery it still boils down to the operator being responsible for the vessel and being able to stop or avoid within the visible distance. Speed was a factor.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by RI Swamp Yankee

No matter what the machinery it still boils down to the operator being responsible for the vessel and being able to stop or avoid within the visible distance. Speed was a factor.

While the first part is true, if a mechanical failure occurred at a point where it would have been impossible to change course, then speed would have nothing to do with it.
Speed may have been a factor, but the CAUSE of the accident would still be machanical failure.

[kjbathe]

I just saw the photos of the accident site above and my reaction is, wow, she didn't miss by much -- a hundred yards further to the right and she's clear. Easy mistake on a foggy night, but no less tragic

[Sandy Beach]

Originally Posted by chipj29

While the first part is true, if a mechanical failure occurred at a point where it would have been impossible to change course, then speed would have nothing to do with it.
Speed may have been a factor, but the CAUSE of the accident would still be machanical failure.

Mechanical failure could mean a kink or something in the throttle line somehow caused a sudden and unexpected increase in speed. The driver would not have intended to travel at that speed.

Still I am bothered by the "coincidence". I'm waiting for authorities to rule out foul play. The speed limit is a highly charged and passionate issue for some people. An extremely small percent of those people could be irrational enough or unbalanced (sick) enough to consider making their point by facilitating something like this. I would hate for that to be the case but we just don't know yet.

I pray for all those touched by the tragedy regardless of the cause.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Sandy Beach

Mechanical failure could mean a kink or something in the throttle line somehow caused a sudden and unexpected increase in speed. The driver would not have intended to travel at that speed.

Still I am bothered by the "coincidence". I'm waiting for authorities to rule out foul play. The speed limit is a highly charged and passionate issue for some people. An extremely small percent of those people could be irrational enough or unbalanced (sick) enough to consider making their point by facilitating something like this. I would hate for that to be the case but we just don't know yet.

I pray for all those touched by the tragedy regardless of the cause.

I'm sorry, but I think this type of conjecture is uncalled for and somewhat ridiculous. This is far worse speculation than anything that has been written in previous posts (except your earlier little hand grenade you taossed in). For one thing, this family has access to dozens of boats, new and used-a person with malicious intent would have no clue what boat they were taking. Second, the boat had already travelled a good distance before the incident. Had the cause been tampering, it would likely have shown up well before it did.

As has been said time and time again, let's wait for the results before assessing any type of blame or casting aspersions against anyone. The only thing we know for sure now is that the boat was going too fast for the conditions.

[twoplustwo]

I'm sorry, but I think this type of conjecture is uncalled for and somewhat ridiculous. Dittoooooo.

The speculation surrounding this tragedy has been bad enough without conspiracy theorists, the grassy knoll, and Professor Plumb with the lead pipe in the ballroom.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by twoplustwo

I'm sorry, but I think this type of conjecture is uncalled for and somewhat ridiculous. Dittoooooo.

The speculation surrounding this tragedy has been bad enough without conspiracy theorists, the grassy knoll, and Professor Plumb with the lead pipe in the ballroom.

I wouldn't rule out foul play yet. It's possible some of the "speed limit" folks were on shore pointing magnets at her boat. That would certainly mess up the compass. Or maybe they painted a tunnel in the island like Wiley E. Coyote There were reports of an Acme delivery truck in the area that night.

[fatlazyless]

Anyone remember when a different boat, about ten years ago or so, crashed into the dock and shoreline of Eagle Island in the nightime?

It was reported in the newspaper that when the fire department got there, the first words of the boat driver was something like: "This island is not supposed to be here. According to my gps, this island is in the wrong place!"

If I remember, his gps was running on a 'road' cartridge, and not a proper 'water' cartridge, or somethin, or other?

[2Blackdogs]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Anyone remember when a different boat, about ten years ago or so, crashed into the dock and shoreline of Eagle Island in the nightime?

It was reported in the newspaper that when the fire department got there, the first words of the boat driver was something like: "This island is not supposed to be here. According to my gps, this island is in the wrong place!"

If I remember, his gps was running on a 'road' cartridge, and not a proper 'water' cartridge, or somethin, or other?

From ten years ago, you have an excellent memory. And he did use those same words.

It may be those with poor memories who end up as he did.

The NHMP discouraged him from his anchoring overnight in your area. He said he had another destination in mind, and "ran the plotter". That's always a mistake as BoaterEd.com noted.....you "run the boat"......always....

The plotter showed no lake details, so he THOUGHT he'd parallel Rt. 3. An island unexpectedly entered those thoughts.

My own thoughts are that the emergence of GPS on Winni poses serious questions for slower boaters out at night, or any anchored at night. FLL's boater could have been from out of state, where overnight anchoring is perfectly fine.

It's scary enough that a "cruise control" has been designed for boats. Even scarier, a plotter hooked up to an autopilot can "even drive itself"! A sailboat under sail was once cut in half by a cruiser a witness described saying, "nobody was seen at either helm station".

Trust the plotter alone in fog, with or without GPS?

[Justenuff]

Being a slow boater on the lake, I have only a passive interest in speed limits (unless being targeted by a fast boat), but one thing strikes me as being interesting about the continuation of this thread:

Some boaters on the lake would rather trust their electronic devices (compasses included) rather than their own senses.

To me, it is the equivalent of traveling route 93 in a blinding snowstorm. The sign says I can do 65 mph, the gps says I am on the road, do I still forge ahead, or do I slow to a speed where my senses can be trusted? (even if it is a stop!)

My boat gps occasionally shows me on land, even though I am at sail or at mooring (it is a garmin). I trust that these electronic devices are not 100% foolproof, so I use all my available senses.

I have been out on the lake at nite many times. If I don't know where I am, I slow down and stop until I can get my bearings. If I still have a problem, I move very slowly until I can make a better reckoning. My speed is a direct relationship to my ability to navigate.

On one occasion, I was out with sails up around 11 pm. It was a dark, foggy nite, and I was making my way from Wolfeboro to West Alton. (my boat had all the nav lights on as required) As I was at sail, I could hear the roar of the other boaters around me, but had no visual sighting. At one point, a motor seemed to be bearing down on me. I flashed my 1 million cp lamp at the sail, and around the boat, but the sound kept coming closer. Finally, I had to point the lamp directly at the boat sound and startled the operator who managed to swerve to miss me at about 100'. Obviously, the operator was travelling too fast for conditions.

My point is simple, electronic devices are no substitute for common sense. If you can't determine where you are or what is in front of you, then you should be slowing down or stopping and moving extremely cautiously. If this was the case in this accident, then perhaps a tragedy could have been averted.

My sympathies to all who were hurt or lost their lives.

[Airwaves]

Justenuff based on your post you seem like a good and prudent boater, someone who knows how to enjoy sailing and boating and do it safely. I don't get this however:

Some boaters on the lake would rather trust their electronic devices (compasses included) rather than their own senses.

I've been on the pages for a couple of years and I don't recall anyone on the forum even hinting at that, and outside of 2BD's post above, even hinting that someone was doing that causing an accident.

A GPS is a tool, like a compass and chart, to help you navigate etc. It's still up to you, the skipper, to make sure you've got everything under control.

I still use paper.

[2Blackdogs]

VitaBene writes,

As has been said time and time again, let's wait for the results before assessing any type of blame or casting aspersions against anyone. The only thing we know for sure now is that the boat was going too fast for the conditions.[/QUOTE]
The problem with "wait", is that as soon as any legal charges are filed, the lawyers will have prepared statements saying,

"We will demonstrate that they were not drinking, those weren't their beer cans, there is no evidence that they were in Wolfeboro, they were not legally drunk, that their instrumentation was not faulty, that they were lured to that location by abandoned magnetic Navy devices, that is was not their anchor that hit the house, that the wrong person was placed at the helm by inept police detectives....etc."

All the details that we can gather here from the scene will keep us from being dumbed-down for that media assault by trained......errrrrrrr......a trained team in the legal profession.