Boating Accident/Death off Diamond Island

fatlazyless · 07-01-2008, 09:12 AM

Anyone remember when a different boat, about ten years ago or so, crashed into the dock and shoreline of Eagle Island in the nightime?

It was reported in the newspaper that when the fire department got there, the first words of the boat driver was something like: "This island is not supposed to be here. According to my gps, this island is in the wrong place!"

If I remember, his gps was running on a 'road' cartridge, and not a proper 'water' cartridge, or somethin, or other?

2Blackdogs · 07-02-2008, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Anyone remember when a different boat, about ten years ago or so, crashed into the dock and shoreline of Eagle Island in the nightime?

It was reported in the newspaper that when the fire department got there, the first words of the boat driver was something like: "This island is not supposed to be here. According to my gps, this island is in the wrong place!"

If I remember, his gps was running on a 'road' cartridge, and not a proper 'water' cartridge, or somethin, or other?

From ten years ago, you have an excellent memory. And he did use those same words.

It may be those with poor memories who end up as he did.

The NHMP discouraged him from his anchoring overnight in your area. He said he had another destination in mind, and "ran the plotter". That's always a mistake as BoaterEd.com noted.....you "run the boat"......always....

The plotter showed no lake details, so he THOUGHT he'd parallel Rt. 3. An island unexpectedly entered those thoughts.

My own thoughts are that the emergence of GPS on Winni poses serious questions for slower boaters out at night, or any anchored at night. FLL's boater could have been from out of state, where overnight anchoring is perfectly fine.

It's scary enough that a "cruise control" has been designed for boats. Even scarier, a plotter hooked up to an autopilot can "even drive itself"! A sailboat under sail was once cut in half by a cruiser a witness described saying, "nobody was seen at either helm station".

Trust the plotter alone in fog, with or without GPS?

Justenuff · 07-02-2008, 09:11 AM

Being a slow boater on the lake, I have only a passive interest in speed limits (unless being targeted by a fast boat), but one thing strikes me as being interesting about the continuation of this thread:

Some boaters on the lake would rather trust their electronic devices (compasses included) rather than their own senses.

To me, it is the equivalent of traveling route 93 in a blinding snowstorm. The sign says I can do 65 mph, the gps says I am on the road, do I still forge ahead, or do I slow to a speed where my senses can be trusted? (even if it is a stop!)

My boat gps occasionally shows me on land, even though I am at sail or at mooring (it is a garmin). I trust that these electronic devices are not 100% foolproof, so I use all my available senses.

I have been out on the lake at nite many times. If I don't know where I am, I slow down and stop until I can get my bearings. If I still have a problem, I move very slowly until I can make a better reckoning. My speed is a direct relationship to my ability to navigate.

On one occasion, I was out with sails up around 11 pm. It was a dark, foggy nite, and I was making my way from Wolfeboro to West Alton. (my boat had all the nav lights on as required) As I was at sail, I could hear the roar of the other boaters around me, but had no visual sighting. At one point, a motor seemed to be bearing down on me. I flashed my 1 million cp lamp at the sail, and around the boat, but the sound kept coming closer. Finally, I had to point the lamp directly at the boat sound and startled the operator who managed to swerve to miss me at about 100'. Obviously, the operator was travelling too fast for conditions.

My point is simple, electronic devices are no substitute for common sense. If you can't determine where you are or what is in front of you, then you should be slowing down or stopping and moving extremely cautiously. If this was the case in this accident, then perhaps a tragedy could have been averted.

My sympathies to all who were hurt or lost their lives.

Airwaves · 07-02-2008, 12:27 PM

Justenuff based on your post you seem like a good and prudent boater, someone who knows how to enjoy sailing and boating and do it safely. I don't get this however:

Quote:

Some boaters on the lake would rather trust their electronic devices (compasses included) rather than their own senses.

I've been on the pages for a couple of years and I don't recall anyone on the forum even hinting at that, and outside of 2BD's post above, even hinting that someone was doing that causing an accident.

A GPS is a tool, like a compass and chart, to help you navigate etc. It's still up to you, the skipper, to make sure you've got everything under control.

I still use paper.

sa meredith · 07-02-2008, 01:24 PM

I'll be very glad when I open this thread, and instead of reading the same things (stated slightly differently) over and over and over and over and over again, we actually get some new information about the cause of the accident or the health of Erica.
The point, counter point, for this thread (now over 300 strong) has run it's course...in my opinion.

NHKathy · 07-02-2008, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I'll be very glad when I open this thread, and instead of reading the same things (stated slightly differently) over and over and over and over and over again, we actually get some new information about the cause of the accident or the health of Erica.
The point, counter point, for this thread (now over 300 strong) has run it's course...in my opinion.

When will this stop?!
This is now in it's 4 page!

I'm getting really sick of seeing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again!
ANY UPDATE ON THE INJURED ????
(then again, there could have been an update mixed in between all of this -and I missed it...

)

kthy66 · 07-03-2008, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHKathy

When will this stop?!
This is now in it's 4 page!

I'm getting really sick of seeing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again!
ANY UPDATE ON THE INJURED ????
(then again, there could have been an update mixed in between all of this -and I missed it...

)

If your so sick of it then stop reading it.. simple solution to a simple problem

sa meredith · 07-03-2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kthy66

If your so sick of it then stop reading it.. simple solution to a simple problem

I'm sorry KTHY66, but you're wrong to post what you did, and I think it is a little rude.
Where else would you like us to look to find the latest news on this event. Many people close to this situation are memebers of this forum, and we depend on them to post info when they get it. So, when this thread pops up with a new post, it's frustrating to click in, scoll all the way down to only find THE SAME EXACT THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. OFTEN DIFFERENT WORDS, BUT THE SAME THINGS. POINT, COUNTER POINT, POINT, COUNTER POINT.
We all get it... ok???? Speed, dark, light, rain, fog, drinking, not drinking, gps, radar, speed limits, no wake zone, Dr's. camp, IT'S ALL BEEN SAID!

Why would you tell her to stop reading it???? I'm sure all she wants is some real info about the health of Erica, or the cause of the accident.

Joe Kerr · 07-04-2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa meredith

...
So, when this thread pops up with a new post, it's frustrating to click in, scroll all the way down to only find THE SAME EXACT THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
. ...

sa meredith You are doing it backwards. This method might help relieve some of your frustration. View the forum in Linear Mode. When you want to see the newer posts on a page hit the End button on your keyboard. The display will jump directly to the end of the page without scrolling. Then you scroll up a few posts to see what's new.

This tragedy is horrible regardless of any personal agendas. I don't think it is fair to assume anything about the situation or even if there is probable cause for any court involvement.

We do not know what happened. We do not know if there will be charges or any court involvement and even if we did know, we are all innocent until proven guilty.

This is not a good time for anyone involved or touched by this terrible accident.

Lakepilot · 07-04-2008, 01:13 PM

I always just hit the > character in the lower right corner of the last post box and no matter how many posts or pages it brings me to the last post. Then I go up from there.

chmeeee · 07-07-2008, 10:55 AM

Better yet, click on the button to the left of the thread title, it takes you directly to the first post since the last time you viewed the forum.

2Blackdogs · 07-14-2008, 07:46 AM

This was photographed on the line of trajectory, with the white area being the impact site. The anchor strike is directly in line, having hit just below the window.

What appears as white in color is light pink. The outer, circular, margins show how the hull collapsed upon impact.

This is obviously NOT a 5 foot wall as speculated on here earlier.

EricP · 07-14-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

This was photographed on the line of trajectory, with the white area being the impact site. The anchor strike is directly in line, having hit just below the window.

What appears as white in color is light pink. The outer, circular, margins show how the hull collapsed upon impact.

This is obviously NOT a 5 foot wall as speculated on here earlier.

How much of that wall is below the water line?

codeman671 · 07-14-2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

This is obviously NOT a 5 foot wall as speculated on here earlier.

No, but not too far from it. Probably pushing 4 feet anyhow. Compare it to the window height from the bottom of the house as a gauge.

SIKSUKR · 07-15-2008, 10:04 AM

Based on my caculations from the picture on my screen that wall would be about 4 ft 8 1/2 inches at it's highest point.The granite wall measures 13/16ths on my screen and the house wall measures 1 3/8ths.Divide those 2 numbers and you get the granite being.59% of the house.Based on an 8 ft house wall x .59 that = 4 ft 8.6 inches.Is that so far from 5 ft?What the heck is your point anyway?

VitaBene · 07-15-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Based on my caculations from the picture on my screen that wall would be about 4 ft 8 1/2 inches at it's highest point.The granite wall measures 13/16ths on my screen and the house wall measures 1 3/8ths.Divide those 2 numbers and you get the granite being.59% of the house.Based on an 8 ft house wall x .59 that = 4 ft 8.6 inches.Is that so far from 5 ft?What the heck is your point anyway?

Thanks Sik, I was going to do that math but you beat me to it- it looked close to me, too!

2Blackdogs · 07-18-2008, 11:03 AM

I'm sure the investigation has the height measured exactly. There's no better way to determine terminal velocity than that.

The amount of hull out of the water at collision can be easily measured based on the widest scuff marks on the ledge. Just compare that measurement to the widest comparable damage on the hull. A comparison-speed with the same amount of hull out of the water with an identical Formula performance cruiser can determine the speed when striking the island.

The depth of the ledge below the waterline is immaterial.

The 5 foot guess, posted earlier, was retracted by the author.

For comparison, this cruiser collision appeared at Boat-Ed.com., having struck a berm. There were no injuries in this collision.

VtSteve · 07-19-2008, 10:08 AM

Always important to add "Performance Cruiser" to the sentence. I'd suspect the water level was higher back then, so five feet may be a stretch. I think the boat would have sustained more bottom damage if it had struck at plowing speed, maybe even ran up on the wall a bit. Not really germaine to any argument, I think everyone has indicated the boat was somewhere on plane at the time of impact. The damage from the berm impact you show seems far worse to me.

I'd still guess 25 to 30. Any faster and I'd have to believe the damage would be far greater. But I'm not even close to having the knowledge to arrive at anything more than a WAG. I'm more focused on the why and how of it. I know you have other intentions.

Now that I know there are adult adolescents that go about revving their engines, and bombing down waterways late at night after drinking, I'm against GFBL boats. Once the speed limit is put into place, there will no longer be drunken, obnoxious boaters on the lake.

SIKSUKR · 07-03-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHKathy

ANY UPDATE ON THE INJURED ????
(then again, there could have been an update mixed in between all of this -and I missed it...

)

I talked with a good friend of mine on Tuesday who visited Erica this past Sunday.He said he thought she was doing much better and considering the magnitude of this accident,her spirits were ok.I believe her condition is now listed as satisfactory.I don't have any info on Nicole.

GWC... · 07-03-2008, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by online Citizen

Blizzard was unconscious. Her face was swollen and there were cuts on her chin. She was in critical condition when she was hospitalized; she was discharged Monday.

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...799/-1/CITIZEN

Ropetow · 07-03-2008, 08:24 PM

My prayers are with both of them.

2Blackdogs · 07-04-2008, 07:24 AM

The leak referred to by the Nashua Telegraph means that we hear one week earlier of a criminal case investigation going forward.

Leaked or not, the message returns us to possible criminal charges in this case, the word "planing", drinking at a lakeside restaurant, the possibility of "overserving" (seen here in a previous boating case), and the question whether canned beer is sold at that location or not. These did not become "un-facts" because someone here says so.

Technical details tell us that a minimum of 19mph is required for this cruiser to plane. Typically, an automobile accident at 10mph produces no injuries whatsoever, even for those not belted in, and even without airbag deployment.

So we're left with extrapolations, and 19 mph doesn't do it for me.

Myself, I consider any "determinations of blood alcohol content" to be emphatically ***BWI data***, Skip, whether exculpatory or probative. I see "the embarrassing release" as damaging to any jury pool in this state, and a "change of venue" demanded, perhaps to Maine.

No, not to Maine, forget Maine.

The link provided previously can't be "read" at all, because it's a Podcast! Having it read aloud brings reality to the listener.....and just what a juror would hear. The likelihood of a jury can't be ignored in this case.

You'll have to cut and paste the link to the address bar to hear it. And there is no legal word spelled "affadavit".

RI Swamp Yankee · 07-02-2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I'll be very glad when I open this thread, and instead of reading the same things (stated slightly differently) over and over and over and over and over again, we actually get some new information about the cause of the accident or the health of Erica.
The point, counter point, for this thread (now over 300 strong) has run it's course...in my opinion.

I think it is safe to say one expects a forum to contain opinions. Perhaps you should try a newspaper if you don't want to see opinions and personal comments.

VtSteve · 07-03-2008, 05:28 AM

Boy, ya really nailed that one BD.

The headline articles may have been premature, but we have a boat on plane with some beer cans. There was more detail in some other articles, but mostly related to the warrant.

I don't think anything's been jeopardized in the case, there's still the pesky facts to deal with, none of which we have.

wildwoodfam · 07-02-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

It's still up to you, the skipper, to make sure you've got everything under control.

There are an awful lot of "skippers" out there who a) don't know the difference between starboard and port, b) couldn't tell you the difference between an anchor knot and a sailors knot, nor do they know how to tie a boat at the dock (that one I have witnessed first hand - a guy looping his line around and around and around the piling....then walking away. I then un looped it and re-tied it - only to have him come back screaming at me to "step away from my boat!!!" Luckily for me another person on the dock was able to let this maniac know I was actually HELPING HIM OUT! and c) could not give a care in the world as to right of way, no-wake rules, and courtesy at the docks, let alone what to do in case of bad weather, running at night or in the fog. Actually had one buddy ask me why we were cruising so slowly back to my docks one night coming from Wolfeboro to LI (which is a pretty easy ride.) I asked him - "how far ahead of the boat are you able to see anything?" His reply - "What does that matter - throttle it up and get us home!!!" All I can say is - he owns a boat and its on Lake Winnipesaukee, and when I see him heading out at night, I am glad to be in home port!

My point??? While many boaters on Winni are good skippers - there are many who are not - and do not have things under control.

Airwaves · 07-02-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildwoodfamMy point??? While many boaters on Winni are good skippers - there are many who are not - and do not have things under control.

And if you read my post again, what does the part that you quoted actually say and how are you in disagreement with it?

Quote:

Airwaves:
It's still up to you, the skipper, to make sure you've got everything under control.

2Blackdogs · 07-02-2008, 07:15 PM

wildwoodfam writes,

Quote:

I have witnessed first hand - a guy looping his line around and around and around the piling....then walking away.

Maybe it was Winni's Wild-West influence showing. Isn't that what Cowboys always do when they "tie up the reins" in Westerns?

*S A Meredith*, in dire need of any new developments here, needs to check this newscast.

http://robocaster.com/nashuatelegraph/podcast-episode-home/apps-pbcs_dll-article$aid=-20080625-news02-726346467/officials-looking-into-whether-alcohol-played-role-in-crash-boat-driver-prominent-foe-of-speed-limits.aspx

You may have to "read" it twice, but if I've "read" it correctly, the NHMP released BWI data prematurely!

Like Littlefield, another BWI charge may be imperiled in NH courts without a legal defense team having lifted a finger.

Skip · 07-02-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

...You may have to "read" it twice, but if I've "read" it correctly, the NHMP released BWI data prematurely!...

You can read it three or four times, and your conclusion is still in error on two major counts.

First, the NHMP released nothing. The documents that were released, the search warrant with supporting affadivit, was released prematurely by the Court, not the NHMP. There has already been a full accounting by the court and the release has no bearing on the investigation, save for embarassing a court clerk.

Second, no "BWI data" was released, either prematurely or in any other manner. Once again, what was released was a copy of the search warrant and the supporting affadavit which was used to obtain a blood sample to determine blood alcohol content. The results of that sample, your so called "BWI data", remains sealed pending final investigation results.

Seaplane Pilot · 07-02-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

wildwoodfam writes,

Maybe it was Winni's Wild-West influence showing. Isn't that what Cowboys always do when they "tie up the reins" in Westerns?

(

Speaking of the Wild West...You give me the impression that you want to schedule the hanging tomorrow at sundown. Have a little respect, will you, until the investigation is complete and the facts are presented.

07-01-2008, 09:12 AM	#1
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,738 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 300 Thanked 1,007 Times in 735 Posts	Anyone remember when a different boat, about ten years ago or so, crashed into the dock and shoreline of Eagle Island in the nightime? It was reported in the newspaper that when the fire department got there, the first words of the boat driver was something like: "This island is not supposed to be here. According to my gps, this island is in the wrong place!" If I remember, his gps was running on a 'road' cartridge, and not a proper 'water' cartridge, or somethin, or other? __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!

07-02-2008, 09:11 AM	#3
Justenuff Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wilmington, North Carolina Posts: 74 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Interesting Points About Plotters and GPS Being a slow boater on the lake, I have only a passive interest in speed limits (unless being targeted by a fast boat), but one thing strikes me as being interesting about the continuation of this thread: Some boaters on the lake would rather trust their electronic devices (compasses included) rather than their own senses. To me, it is the equivalent of traveling route 93 in a blinding snowstorm. The sign says I can do 65 mph, the gps says I am on the road, do I still forge ahead, or do I slow to a speed where my senses can be trusted? (even if it is a stop!) My boat gps occasionally shows me on land, even though I am at sail or at mooring (it is a garmin). I trust that these electronic devices are not 100% foolproof, so I use all my available senses. I have been out on the lake at nite many times. If I don't know where I am, I slow down and stop until I can get my bearings. If I still have a problem, I move very slowly until I can make a better reckoning. My speed is a direct relationship to my ability to navigate. On one occasion, I was out with sails up around 11 pm. It was a dark, foggy nite, and I was making my way from Wolfeboro to West Alton. (my boat had all the nav lights on as required) As I was at sail, I could hear the roar of the other boaters around me, but had no visual sighting. At one point, a motor seemed to be bearing down on me. I flashed my 1 million cp lamp at the sail, and around the boat, but the sound kept coming closer. Finally, I had to point the lamp directly at the boat sound and startled the operator who managed to swerve to miss me at about 100'. Obviously, the operator was travelling too fast for conditions. My point is simple, electronic devices are no substitute for common sense. If you can't determine where you are or what is in front of you, then you should be slowing down or stopping and moving extremely cautiously. If this was the case in this accident, then perhaps a tragedy could have been averted. My sympathies to all who were hurt or lost their lives.

07-02-2008, 01:24 PM	#5
sa meredith Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 986 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 32 Thanked 352 Times in 137 Posts	info I'll be very glad when I open this thread, and instead of reading the same things (stated slightly differently) over and over and over and over and over again, we actually get some new information about the cause of the accident or the health of Erica. The point, counter point, for this thread (now over 300 strong) has run it's course...in my opinion.

07-14-2008, 07:46 AM	#12
2Blackdogs Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 115 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This was photographed on the line of trajectory, with the white area being the impact site. The anchor strike is directly in line, having hit just below the window. What appears as white in color is light pink. The outer, circular, margins show how the hull collapsed upon impact. This is obviously NOT a 5 foot wall as speculated on here earlier. Attached Images

07-15-2008, 10:04 AM	#15
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Based on my caculations from the picture on my screen that wall would be about 4 ft 8 1/2 inches at it's highest point.The granite wall measures 13/16ths on my screen and the house wall measures 1 3/8ths.Divide those 2 numbers and you get the granite being.59% of the house.Based on an 8 ft house wall x .59 that = 4 ft 8.6 inches.Is that so far from 5 ft?What the heck is your point anyway? __________________ SIKSUKR

07-04-2008, 01:13 PM	#10
Lakepilot Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 446 Thanks: 70 Thanked 57 Times in 40 Posts	I always just hit the > character in the lower right corner of the last post box and no matter how many posts or pages it brings me to the last post. Then I go up from there.

07-07-2008, 10:55 AM	#11
chmeeee Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Central CT Posts: 90 Thanks: 19 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Better yet, click on the button to the left of the thread title, it takes you directly to the first post since the last time you viewed the forum.

07-18-2008, 11:03 AM	#17
2Blackdogs Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 115 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm sure the investigation has the height measured exactly. There's no better way to determine terminal velocity than that. The amount of hull out of the water at collision can be easily measured based on the widest scuff marks on the ledge. Just compare that measurement to the widest comparable damage on the hull. A comparison-speed with the same amount of hull out of the water with an identical Formula performance cruiser can determine the speed when striking the island. The depth of the ledge below the waterline is immaterial. The 5 foot guess, posted earlier, was retracted by the author. For comparison, this cruiser collision appeared at Boat-Ed.com., having struck a berm. There were no injuries in this collision. Attached Images

07-19-2008, 10:08 AM	#18
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	Always important to add "Performance Cruiser" to the sentence. I'd suspect the water level was higher back then, so five feet may be a stretch. I think the boat would have sustained more bottom damage if it had struck at plowing speed, maybe even ran up on the wall a bit. Not really germaine to any argument, I think everyone has indicated the boat was somewhere on plane at the time of impact. The damage from the berm impact you show seems far worse to me. I'd still guess 25 to 30. Any faster and I'd have to believe the damage would be far greater. But I'm not even close to having the knowledge to arrive at anything more than a WAG. I'm more focused on the why and how of it. I know you have other intentions. Now that I know there are adult adolescents that go about revving their engines, and bombing down waterways late at night after drinking, I'm against GFBL boats. Once the speed limit is put into place, there will no longer be drunken, obnoxious boaters on the lake.

07-03-2008, 08:24 PM	#21
Ropetow Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Rochester, NH / Bartlett, NH Posts: 322 Thanks: 228 Thanked 33 Times in 13 Posts	My prayers are with both of them.

07-04-2008, 07:24 AM	#22
2Blackdogs Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 115 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The leak referred to by the Nashua Telegraph means that we hear one week earlier of a criminal case investigation going forward. Leaked or not, the message returns us to possible criminal charges in this case, the word "planing", drinking at a lakeside restaurant, the possibility of "overserving" (seen here in a previous boating case), and the question whether canned beer is sold at that location or not. These did not become "un-facts" because someone here says so. Technical details tell us that a minimum of 19mph is required for this cruiser to plane. Typically, an automobile accident at 10mph produces no injuries whatsoever, even for those not belted in, and even without airbag deployment. So we're left with extrapolations, and 19 mph doesn't do it for me. Myself, I consider any "determinations of blood alcohol content" to be emphatically *BWI data*, Skip, whether exculpatory or probative. I see "the embarrassing release" as damaging to any jury pool in this state, and a "change of venue" demanded, perhaps to Maine. No, not to Maine, forget Maine. The link provided previously can't be "read" at all, because it's a Podcast! Having it read aloud brings reality to the listener.....and just what a juror would hear. The likelihood of a jury can't be ignored in this case. You'll have to cut and paste the link to the address bar to hear it. And there is no legal word spelled "affadavit".

07-03-2008, 05:28 AM	#24
VtSteve Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,320 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 230 Thanked 361 Times in 169 Posts	Boy, ya really nailed that one BD. The headline articles may have been premature, but we have a boat on plane with some beer cans. There was more detail in some other articles, but mostly related to the warrant. I don't think anything's been jeopardized in the case, there's still the pesky facts to deal with, none of which we have.