Inaccurate info from Duncan Press (green map) web site

[Taz]

The NRZ may be on the correction page but the map I looked in a local marine store did not have the updated version to sell. I did not pay attention to the edition so maybe the were left over. However, the NRZ in Black Cove is a few years old now, Advent Cove I believe is 3 years old now and they were not listed. If thats the case it takes a long time for the newest edition to get to the local marinas.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Taz

The NRZ may be on the correction page but the map I looked in a local marine store did not have the updated version to sell. I did not pay attention to the edition so maybe the were left over. However, the NRZ in Black Cove is a few years old now, Advent Cove I believe is 3 years old now and they were not listed. If thats the case it takes a long time for the newest edition to get to the local marinas.

Originally Posted by Taz

Skipper of The Sea Que: Your right about the corrections page. However, ommitted sounds like it is not printed on the charts. So what good is that? It does not seem much good to put it on the website but not the actual chart.

Taz,

I’m not sure what map you were viewing at your local marina. I would expect merchants would be stocking and selling the latest edition of the maps. Bizer’s recent eighth edition and Duncan’s latest is their 2005 edition.

If you don’t recognize the benefits of corrections pages on their web sites I won’t try to change your mind. An additions, changes and corrections page for each map makes a lot of sense to me. Things do change between printings and sometimes errors, oversights additions and deletions occur. I like to print the corrections and changes pages occasionally and keep them with my maps.

By the way Taz, thank you for helping make the point of this thread with the other NRZs. More inaccurate or missing information from Duncan Press. Duncan only adds Advent Cove as a NRZ on their corrections page – it is not listed on their current map.

Duncan Press does NOT even mention or recognize Buzzels Cove, East Cove or Black Cove as NRZs on their map or on their corrections and additions web page. What good is THAT?

[Mashugana]

It's about time someone called them out. Duncan appears to be resting on their past reputation. It seems to me like they are more concerned with trying to discredit their competition than they are with insuring the accuracy of their own product.

Did anyone else notice their comparison page? Features of Duncan Press current map, old map and their competitor's map? They compare their current map with Bizer's FIFTH edition map. They mention one change on the SIXTH edition Bizer map (the compass rose date) but the comparison chart is versus Bizer's FIFTH edition. Remember that the current Bizer map is the Eighth edition.

Why does Duncan not use the most current Bizer map for a comparison of features? I could understand their use of the seventh edition as the eighth is pretty new but using the fifth edition smells fishy to me.

Get real Duncan. Put more effort into your Duncan maps and web information rather than challenging the Bizer map. Just my opinion.

[Gilligan]

Why would Duncan compare their own current Winnipesaukee map with the Bizer older 5th edition instead of using the current 8th or even the 7th edition? Could it be just laziness or inattentiveness or deception? Who knows (they know). I can only conclude that comparing the Duncan map to Bizer’s older map makes Duncan’s appear better than it would be compared to the more recent Bizer maps.

Duncan uses that comparison to their advantage in what I believe is a sneaky way. Their comparison chart proclaims that ALL buoys, not just the flashing light buoys, are numbered on the Duncan map. The 700+ buoys are not physically numbered, just on paper. On the additions page Duncan adds new buoys with the notation that Marine Patrol stopped using that numbering system in May of 2006. IMO that is a deceptive comparison since the current Duncan map is the 2005 edition which was printed BEFORE the MP stopped the experiment of numbering all markers. Therefore all the markers printed on the 2005 map are numbered even though new markers are not numbered. The newer unnumbered markers are not printed on the 2005 Duncan map. Is that sleazy or what?

The fact that on the comparison chart Duncan refers to a change on the Bizer 6th edition map tells me that they compare themselves to the 5th edition because it suits them as they obviously have seen the Bizer 6th edition and have not bothred to compare themselves to the more recent Bizer maps.

I think Duncan should concentrate on their own product and web site rather than trying to discredit Bizer.

[Taz]

SKIPPER OF THE SEA QUE, Thank you for making my point. Bizer only adds Advent and East Cove as NRZ'S on their corrections page and not the actual chart. Bizer also does not add to the corrections page or the actual chart the Black Cove NRZ. Black Cove was designated a NRZ at 4 or 5 years ago. The Bizer charts being sold at Paraphanalia do not have any of these NRZ'S documented. I could not find anywhere on the charts what edition they were.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Taz

SKIPPER OF THE SEA QUE, Thank you for making my point. Bizer only adds Advent and East Cove as NRZ'S on their corrections page and not the actual chart. Bizer also does not add to the corrections page or the actual chart the Black Cove NRZ. Black Cove was designated a NRZ at 4 or 5 years ago. The Bizer charts being sold at Paraphanalia do not have any of these NRZ'S documented. I could not find anywhere on the charts what edition they were.

Over the last few years 4 "newer" No Rafting Zones (NRZs) have been added to the list. We are talking about: Buzzel Cove, Advent Cove, Black Cove and East Cove.

None of those 4 appear on the latest Duncan Press map.
Just one of those, Advent Cove, is listed on their corrections web page.

Two of those are on the latest Bizer map, Buzzel Cove and Black's Cove.
Two of those, Advent Cove and East Cove, are on the Bizer web corrections page.

Of those 4, Duncan documents ONE NRZ,
Bizer documents all FOUR NRZs

Taz, I'm not sure how I helped you make a point but I am always glad to help. Meanwhile, I don't believe Duncan Press pays a secret MP agent for any info but it does make for a nice but possibly misleading "headline".

The way I see Duncan Press priorities, their web site still shows the 45/25 mph Speed Limits as in the screen capture above (click HERE if you don't want to scroll back), just in the area of Bear Island and Rattlesnake rather than Lake-wide. This summer though, they updated their FAQs area IMO to try to discredit Bizer.

[Taz]

Skip, My point was that Bizer has not added NRZ'S to its current chart and are just as guilty as Duncan for not being updated or accurate. I support that opinion by pointing out that Bizer has not added Black Cove, Advent Cove and East Cove as NRZ'S on their current chart. See my last post where I point out that I looked at the newest maps being sold at Paraphanalia and they are not on the chart.

You helped make my point because you point out that Duncan did not add Advent Cove to its latest chart. Well neither did Bizer and it did not add Black Cove as you said in your last post or East Cove.

While a corrections page on line is fine it does not do you much good when you are out on the lake looking at your chart for information. You have pointed out mostly secondary things that have nothing to do with navigating the lake and avoiding rocks and shoals. Both charts do a very good job at that and I believe that is most important.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Taz

Skip, My point was that Bizer has not added NRZ'S to its current chart and are just as guilty as Duncan for not being updated or accurate. {snip}

You helped make my point because you point out that Duncan did not add Advent Cove (see note 1) to its latest chart. Well neither did Bizer and it did not add Black Cove as you said in your last post or East Cove.

While a corrections page on line is fine it does not do you much good when you are out on the lake looking at your chart for information. You have pointed out mostly secondary things that have nothing to do with navigating the lake and avoiding rocks and shoals. Both charts do a very good job at that and I believe that is most important.

note 1: Advent Cove is thee ONLY one of those 4 NRZs recognized by Duncan Press and it is only on their corrections page. They got THAT bit of info correct and updated. That's a good thing

You are right Taz, some information is more important than other information. As I said in the thread starter the Duncan inaccuracies range, in my opinion, from negligent to silly. As of today, 8-22-09, Duncan's web page is still listing the 45/25 Speed Limit on the Lake as ONLY in two areas, Rattlesnake Island and Bear Island - failure to update that info is a major disservice to boaters. The info on the Duncan additions/corrections page today is STILL as it appears in the screen capture in the thread starter - you can click HERE if you want to see it without scrolling back to the top. IMO that is negligence and should have been corrected long ago.

The No Rafting Zones are not navigation hazards and are not as important as other info. They do help show which group tries to be most accurate. We are all human and mistakes happen. Correcting oversights and mistakes and keeping updated IS important. If the Witches Rocks move, I'd like to know about it more importantly, I'd want to know if the markers move or are missing. Who will you trust to keep more current?

Duncan updated their web site this summer to try to discredit Bizer (see the "new" items on their FAQ's web page) instead of concentrating on the accuracy of the information they, Duncan, provide. Duncan Press priorities seem to be aimed at attacking Bizer rather than getting their own information in order. That is important to me.

You must have been looking faster than your eyes can read when you checked BLACK COVE. Both Bizer 7th and 8th editions have the legend markings of a NRZ and the words No Rafting Zone at Black Cove contrary to your observations - see the attached from Bizer edition 7 and also shown on their edition 8 - the one currently on sale at Parafunailia (and elsewhere).

A corrections (and additions) page on the web is valuable because things do change between printings - as I mentioned, I print those and keep them in a big zip-lock bag and carry it with my maps. I carry both maps.

There are more then 4 NRZs on the lake. Of the 4 we've mentioned, 1 is acknowledged by Duncan while all 4 are recognized by Bizer. It's a fact. Let's move on to other map/web site inadequacies unless you have something new to add to the NRZ discussion, OK?



Happy and safe boating.

[Taz]

You are correct about Black Cove. I made an error on that one. However, you made an error about Buzzell Cove. The Bizer charts being sold at Paraphanalia do not list it as a NRZ. While its nice to have corrections page its useless while out on the water.

The way I see it the charts are meant for one thing. To show the best ways to navigate the lake. I use Duncan and in the several years I have been boating here I bumped one rock and that was nothing to due with Duncan. It was my error.

[Gilligan]

Originally Posted by Taz

While its nice to have corrections page its useless while out on the water.

The way I see it the charts are meant for one thing. To show the best ways to navigate the lake.

Taz, Why would anyone not want to see any changes to your lake map? There are navigation corrections on the web pages not just NRZs. You seem to dismiss the need to see those updates on the web to use while out on the water.

Duncan Press made changes to their web site this month. They have not corrected the inaccurate speed limit information or changed the safety courses at Marine Patrol headquarters from Coast Guard to MP. They have changed the background color of their web pages. Instead of a green background their web pages now have a brown background.

I guess that is what is important to them but that change doesn't help anyone navigate.

[Skipper of the Sea Que]

Originally Posted by Gilligan

Taz, Why would anyone not want to see any changes to your lake map? There are navigation corrections on the web pages not just NRZs. You seem to dismiss the need to see those updates on the web to use while out on the water.

Duncan Press made changes to their web site this month. They have not corrected the inaccurate speed limit information or changed the safety courses at Marine Patrol headquarters from Coast Guard to MP. They have changed the background color of their web pages. Instead of a green background their web pages now have a brown background.

I guess that is what is important to them but that change doesn't help anyone navigate.

In addition to the color of their web page background they changed the Home Page so it says "September 2009". That's keeping current 'eh?

The have NOT updated ANY of the (mis)information listed in the thread starter. They still list the 2 Speed Limit zones that were the test areas from a few years ago - NO mention of a speed limit on the whole lake (not that I like the SL but it is the current law and should be published as such).

They also do not seem to have met their own challenge issued (or ranted IMO) on their Home page earlier this summer. They said we'll see which map (Bizer or Duncan) is most attractive and accurate by the end of the summer. I'll save that for another thread.