In the Spirit of Compromise....

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Could be, but it's hard to do given even the old fashioned makeup of the lake.

What you've been describing BI is the Bonehead atmosphere, the Cowboys are Boneheads as well. You admitted speed wasn't the big deal. So what's the problem with dealing with those you say are cowboys? Do the MP's have any stones at all?

So now you have the SL. Are the cowboys all gone? How about the everyday, garden variety of Bonehead that infests all lakes? You may not be throwing up your hand and quitting, but you're sure taking the hardest approach.

In my opinion the speed limit is working.

At least my approach has a chance of doing some good. Looking for more enforcement and education to turn things around is not going to happen. They are "pie in the sky" nice ideas. The Marine Patrol are facing budget cuts, not increases.

I know you will say they are wasting dollars chasing speeders. However there have been no speeding tickets written so that can't be true.

What we need to do is rigidly enforce the laws we have now.

[VtSteve]

What we need to do is rigidly enforce the laws we have now.

As we've always said. They can't enforce the obvious, so give them an even harder law to enforce, while ignoring the obvious.

You won't know if the speed limit has worked at all until around the summer of 2011. I say, let's wait until then. The SL supporters know it's crap, so they want to make it permanent, just because. What the heck, go for it.

Let's stake out the camps and see how those 25 mph Cowboys are doing.

Amazing that all those Safety people never helped the MP get additional funding. Heck, most of them hate the term Boneheads. Good luck BI, you'll need it.

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I'm sure El had a most pleasant, peaceful day on the lake :emb.

Thanks Steve, I had a great day on the lake. It was hot and sunny here and Winnipesaukee was very busy, but very civilized again. Hope you enjoyed the day up on your lake.
I just can't get over the difference a simple little law has made. You might not be able to see that from your vantage in VT, but having been out on Lake Winnipesaukee for well over 600 hours so far this spring/summer, I have witnessed the improvement first hand.
I did see one of those Capt Boneheads in a non-GFBL that you guys keep talking about. My son and I were drifting about 25 feet south of the lit buoy off Welch, casting worms at the buoy for bass. A larger boat was coming along south of us, heading east to west with a little hydroplane running next to him on his north side. The bigger boat was going to pass south of us about maybe 100 to 200 feet (who can tell the difference?), and the little boat was heading straight at us. It looked like a little 14-foot or so homemade thing with a 20HP Johnson on it. We could see the smiling driver looking right as us as he approached, so we never got scared, just confused and annoyed. I figured he had to change course a bit and expected that was going to cut just north of the buoy, which would still put him only 30 or 40 feet from us, but to our astonishment, he passes right between us and the buoy. Right over our lines, not more than 10 feet from us at no less than 25 miles an hour. We're holding out our arms in a "what the heck?" gesture, and he gives us a big smile and holds up his beer. I looked at my son and we both broke out laughing. This was stupid enough to be comical. I know people say "10 feet" when it was really 50, but this was 10 feet. I was close enough to the buoy to cast beyond it and this guy split the difference.
But then I realized that never once did I get scared. If the guy had hit us dead-on there certainly would have been some damage but that little thing would not have killed us. I compared this to how heart-stopping-scared I've felt in past situations where I've had big heavy cigarettes coming at me at 60 or 70 miles an hour, even when much further away. Usually you can only see the big hull and wonder whether the driver can see you or is even looking. While this guy was driving as bad, he simply was not putting us at the same risk. His boat was small, and it was only going 25 or so.
There are certainly Captain Boneheads driving craft of all sizes; little fishing boats, sailboats, cruisers, and GFBLs. And the SL certainly will not get them all off the lake or turn them into good boaters in all regards. But it is amazing how much less dangerous these Captain Boneheads in the smaller slower boats are than the Captain Boneheads driving 70 in big heavy boats. Its amazing how much less terrorizing boats are when they are heading at you at 25 mph than at 70.
You guys need to understand that laws like the SL are not caused by responsible drivers like you protest to be, but are caused by the idiots who have been terrorizing us because they drive like idiots, drive huge heavy boats, and drive them very fast in places where it is not "prudent" to do so. You guys had a good thing, and they ruined it for you...we didn't. Your anger should be directed at them, and not at those who simply want to recreate on the lake without undue fear or risk.
Focus your energies on saving the other lakes where you can still drive as fast as you want from SLs before you lose them too. Do this by going after the people who really cost you your freedom here...the Captain Boneheads who drive GFBLs. If you don't get them off Sunapee, Newfound, Champlain, and all the other still-unlimited lakes, then SLs are inevitable there too, and you will only have yourselves to blame for failing to recognize your true enemy while you still had time.

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Maybe the "Broads Free Zone" or "65 Zone" could look like this?

Rattlesnake Guy,
Is this really a compromise in your view? Have you thought this through? You want to banish 95% of the lake's boaters to 30% of the lake. Take away the 150-ft buffer around the shoreline and islands and you leave us 12% of the lake to boat on. Crowd us all into that 12% and we will all be within 150 feet of eachother, essentially having 0% of the lake to exceed headway speed on. Meanwhile, you and your small group get 70% of the lake to selfishly fly around as you please? Great "compromise".
The speed limit is working fine. The people who wanted the law are content with its results...how often does that happen? The people whose bad behavior the law was aimed at are behaving (for the most part)...how often does that happen? As I said above, focus your anger and energy at the GFBL-driving Captain Boneheads while you still have time to save the other lakes that let you drive as fast as you want before these jerks force society to seek SLs on those too. You know who these guys are. They are the ones bragging about flaunting the SL. They are the ones who think that laws don't apply to them. They are the ones who cost you your freedom.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by elchase

It looked like a little 14-foot or so homemade thing with a 20HP Johnson on it. We could see the smiling driver looking right as us as he approached, so we never got scared, just confused and annoyed. I figured he had to change course a bit and expected that was going to cut just north of the buoy, which would still put him only 30 or 40 feet from us, but to our astonishment, he passes right between us and the buoy. Right over our lines, not more than 10 feet from us at no less than 25 miles an hour. We're holding out our arms in a "what the heck?" gesture, and he gives us a big smile and holds up his beer. I looked at my son and we both broke out laughing. This was stupid enough to be comical. I know people say "10 feet" when it was really 50, but this was 10 feet. I was close enough to the buoy to cast beyond it and this guy split the difference.
But then I realized that never once did I get scared. If the guy had hit us dead-on there certainly would have been some damage but that little thing would not have killed us. I compared this to how heart-stopping-scared I've felt in past situations where I've had big heavy cigarettes coming at me at 60 or 70 miles an hour, even when much further away. Usually you can only see the big hull and wonder whether the driver can see you or is even looking. While this guy was driving as bad, he simply was not putting us at the same risk. His boat was small, and it was only going 25 or so.

Unless you were piloting the Sea Shepherd, a 14' 20 HP boat going 25MPH that strikes you certainly can kill you or injure you severely. It sounds like the only law this guy didn't break was the SL. But because of that, and the fact that it was not a GFBL, you are pretty much OK with it.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by elchase

Rattlesnake Guy,
Is this really a compromise in your view? Have you thought this through? You want to banish 95% of the lake's boaters to 30% of the lake. Take away the 150-ft buffer around the shoreline and islands and you leave us 12% of the lake to boat on. Crowd us all into that 12% and we will all be within 150 feet of eachother, essentially having 0% of the lake to exceed headway speed on. Meanwhile, you and your small group get 70% of the lake to selfishly fly around as you please? Great "compromise".

elchase,
I think one of us is confused.
Like others before, I am saying to have a no speed limit zone in the broads region. "Everyone" can go everywhere on the lake. Everyone can go 0 to 45 on 100 percent of the legal parts of the lake. You can go 0 to 65 or beyond on 22% of the lake. The part of the lake where the boats and people are the most visible and furthest apart. Yes, I do think it's a compromise. It's less than the fast boats would have without a speed limit and it's less than the SL proponents would have with a speed limit. Neither side would be "happy" but both could have some of what they want.

PS My boat only goes 45 behind my truck. The fast zone would be in front of my camp where my family swims and kayaks near the shore. I fear the boats going 30 within 150 feet a lot more than the ones going 60 a quarter mile out.

[NoRegrets]

Where was everyone? In my tenth season on the lake this was the first weekend that I was able to get out of Paugus Bay as if it were a weekday. High noon on Saturday we went by the Naswa and there were less than 10 boats there. We drove straight into the channel without waiting. This was the first time this has ever happened! On Sunday we went through around 1:30 and the Naswa was rocking but still had a few open slips and we were 4th in line to get through the channel.

There were still alot of family tubers out there but no where near the number of boats as past seasons.

elchase, what lake were you on this weekend? I was on Winnipesaukee.

The reduced traffic is great but the boneheads are still here. Does anyone know if the officials have a way to estimate the boat traffic? I think I remember an estimate of 10,000 boats per weekend from a few years ago.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Where was everyone? In my tenth season on the lake this was the first weekend that I was able to get out of Paugus Bay as if it were a weekday. High noon on Saturday we went by the Naswa and there were less than 10 boats there. We drove straight into the channel without waiting. This was the first time this has ever happened! On Sunday we went through around 1:30 and the Naswa was rocking but still had a few open slips and we were 4th in line to get through the channel.

There were still alot of family tubers out there but no where near the number of boats as past seasons.

elchase, what lake were you on this weekend? I was on Winnipesaukee.

The reduced traffic is great but the boneheads are still here. Does anyone know if the officials have a way to estimate the boat traffic? I think I remember an estimate of 10,000 boats per weekend from a few years ago.

The SL law has pretty much gotten the GFBL Captain Boneheads off the water, didn't you know that? Hard to believe the traffic would be down this past weekend, quite possibly the best of the year. I cruised well out of my normal area way down south, maybe many explored the outer reaches of Winni. It was quite calm this weekend, so it was a great chance to do so.

[BroadHopper]

I stayed up around Moultoboro Bay area last weekend. The 'Walmart side of the lake' has been too congested for my taste in the past few years. I think the Boneheads are scared of rocks and pretty much stay on the other side of the graveyard.

My observation of the bay area is that boating activities are pretty much the same.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by elchase

I did see one of those Capt Boneheads in a non-GFBL that you guys keep talking about. My son and I were drifting about 25 feet south of the lit buoy off Welch, casting worms at the buoy for bass. A larger boat was coming along south of us, heading east to west with a little hydroplane running next to him on his north side. The bigger boat was going to pass south of us about maybe 100 to 200 feet (who can tell the difference?), and the little boat was heading straight at us. It looked like a little 14-foot or so homemade thing with a 20HP Johnson on it. We could see the smiling driver looking right as us as he approached, so we never got scared, just confused and annoyed. I figured he had to change course a bit and expected that was going to cut just north of the buoy, which would still put him only 30 or 40 feet from us, but to our astonishment, he passes right between us and the buoy. Right over our lines, not more than 10 feet from us at no less than 25 miles an hour. We're holding out our arms in a "what the heck?" gesture, and he gives us a big smile and holds up his beer. I looked at my son and we both broke out laughing. This was stupid enough to be comical. I know people say "10 feet" when it was really 50, but this was 10 feet. I was close enough to the buoy to cast beyond it and this guy split the difference.
But then I realized that never once did I get scared. If the guy had hit us dead-on there certainly would have been some damage but that little thing would not have killed us. I compared this to how heart-stopping-scared I've felt in past situations where I've had big heavy cigarettes coming at me at 60 or 70 miles an hour, even when much further away. Usually you can only see the big hull and wonder whether the driver can see you or is even looking. While this guy was driving as bad, he simply was not putting us at the same risk. His boat was small, and it was only going 25 or so.
There are certainly Captain Boneheads driving craft of all sizes; little fishing boats, sailboats, cruisers, and GFBLs. And the SL certainly will not get them all off the lake or turn them into good boaters in all regards. But it is amazing how much less dangerous these Captain Boneheads in the smaller slower boats are than the Captain Boneheads driving 70 in big heavy boats. Its amazing how much less terrorizing boats are when they are heading at you at 25 mph than at 70.
You guys need to understand that laws like the SL are not caused by responsible drivers like you protest to be, but are caused by the idiots who have been terrorizing us because they drive like idiots, drive huge heavy boats, and drive them very fast in places where it is not "prudent" to do so. You guys had a good thing, and they ruined it for you...we didn't. Your anger should be directed at them, and not at those who simply want to recreate on the lake without undue fear or risk.
Focus your energies on saving the other lakes where you can still drive as fast as you want from SLs before you lose them too. Do this by going after the people who really cost you your freedom here...the Captain Boneheads who drive GFBLs. If you don't get them off Sunapee, Newfound, Champlain, and all the other still-unlimited lakes, then SLs are inevitable there too, and you will only have yourselves to blame for failing to recognize your true enemy while you still had time.



The speed limit is working fine. The people who wanted the law are content with its results...how often does that happen? The people whose bad behavior the law was aimed at are behaving (for the most part)...how often does that happen? As I said above, focus your anger and energy at the GFBL-driving Captain Boneheads while you still have time to save the other lakes that let you drive as fast as you want before these jerks force society to seek SLs on those too. You know who these guys are. They are the ones bragging about flaunting the SL. They are the ones who think that laws don't apply to them. They are the ones who cost you your freedom.

I did another read of your post El, and it's quite possibly the worst statements, and certainly the most irresponsible I've ever read. But at least many can see in print exactly where you are coming from.

First, you're not afraid of this beer-drinking bonehead because his boat is small. You even slough it off and have a good laugh.

because......

All of your hatred and anger are focused on another group, specifically, the GFBL group of boaters. Only "they are the ones that think that laws don't apply to them", right El?

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't share this type of prejudice. Not on the water, not anywhere. It's not productive, not rational, and speaks at a level well below that of anyone I'd associate with. It's pretty much the essence of what sparks so much protest in the Winfabs movement.

You were dragged, kicking and screaming into a safety debate, and while only now you mention there are Boneheads that cause most of the problem, you you now say it's the GFBL "jerks" that are the reason the SL was passed, ignoring any and all evidence to the contrary. I knew you would see an opening to the debate, and you took it. But instead of getting all rational on us, you spout your anger toward a single, small group of boaters. You say nothing of enforcement, and even laugh off a very close encounter because the Bonehead's boat was small.

Being selfish and arrogant does nothing to promote safety, nor does it deal with any of the problems at hand. In the nature of moving forward and having discussions that actually deal with issues, I certainly don't want the "jerks" making up stuff as they go along to promote myopic agendas based on anger. There are plenty of good-natured people that seem to think a SL might work, or is necessary. They are open to discussion, and we all share a common hope of safety on the waters. You sir, are not one of these people. Whenever a group, no matter how small or large, focuses all of their energy behind feelings of anger, hate, or even rage, it never ends up well.

I find it hard to believe that someone that spends at least 6 hours a day, seven days a week, every week on the water can only find one particular group to focus such anger towards.

[chmeeee]

Originally Posted by elchase

Thanks Steve, I had a great day on the lake. It was hot and sunny here and Winnipesaukee was very busy, but very civilized again. Hope you enjoyed the day up on your lake.
I just can't get over the difference a simple little law has made. You might not be able to see that from your vantage in VT, but having been out on Lake Winnipesaukee for well over 600 hours so far this spring/summer, I have witnessed the improvement first hand.

Wow, 600 hours, that's pretty impressive. Almost like a full time job! Actually, it is a full time job, that would be 40 hours per week assuming you've been out since the beginning of May. Especially impressive given the almost non-stop rain through May, June, & July.

To be entirely honest, I feel like the percentage of GFBs has not changed at all. Sure, there are not as many of them this year, but there are not as many of every type of boat. I did in fact see the biggest GFB I've ever seen twice on Sunday. It was a 52 foot something or other with a closed cockpit. Interestingly, he was one of the more civil boaters I've seen on this lake. He came out of the Gilford Town Docks at headway speed all the way out past Locks Island before taking off. I saw him again later on idling through the Bear Island NWZ.



(Please excuse the low-res, long distance shot)

Interestingly, I did have the good fortune of meeting the biggest moron I've ever seen on the lake. Going through the Bear Island NWZ from north to south, I look back and see a 25 or so foot center console steaming towards me, bow high, max wake. He banked right about 75 feet behind me and passed by my starboard side about 20 feet off, still maximum wake (in the NWZ). I honked, he smiled and kept going towards Sheps, never slowing below 20 mph or so.

[VtSteve]

Those are the type of boaters that I usually "think" just don't understand that their actions may not be prudent. Not a dangerous Bonehead per se. Many boaters don't realize what their own wake does, both on shore and on the water. Granted, they have to contend with wakes as any boater does, so they Should know. I don't necessarily assume that everyone's a seasoned boater and understands all of their actions. Some are newbies, and operate as they would in a car.

I know most people are afraid to get involved in altercations, society being what it can be today. But a simple warning that he could have a seriously expensive ticket in a highly patrolled area may make him think you're just looking out for his wallet Regardless of whether they patrol it or not

[Bear Islander]

I just want to point out that this thread has degenerated into "just another speed limit argument". Is anybody really trying to float a compromise? The clock is ticking.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I just want to point out that this thread has degenerated into "just another speed limit argument". Is anybody really trying to float a compromise? The clock is ticking.

I just did in the post above yours.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I just did in the post above yours.

I was just about to post the same. Seems like that compromise position has already been offered up as well. The bays are always more congested, and the narrower the bay, the tougher it is when there are many different speeds travelled.

The reason I say just extend the sunset provision is this. Next year "may" signal the return to more typical boating activity. I say May because nobody knows how many people have just gotten out of boating due to the economy, how many will ever come back, and how much has been the bad weather/economic snowball affect. I can only guess that it will reappear as the weather stabilizes, and people have the wherewithal to go out. I try not to assume, so I'd wait.


What are the pros to extending the sunset provision?

Obviously, the data. If boat traffic returns to "normal", whatever that is, people can make more informed judgments about the impact of the SL law. Accidents weren't the problem, so I doubt not having accidents is the measure of the law. But if traffic goes back to normal, And the perception is that they feel better, as Dave feels, then you're left with the boneheads.

There's so many things that go into addressing a law. With all of the publicity surrounding this law, perhaps people are a lot more aware of their boating activity. There may well be some serious cowboys that have not been on the lake as a result of the law. This would be a good thing. They would not have been on the lake if there cowboy and dangerous actions were spotted by MP's right?

Dave has no real dog in this battle, other than principle. So I'd be far more inclined to listen more to his perceptions and stories than others. But I do feel that in the long run, you can keep the daytime/weekend limits and massage them as time goes by. I agree with many that the nighttime limit of 25 is a bit low.

Anytime a perfect weather weekend on Winni seems relatively pleasant and easy going on Winni, there's more to it than an unenforced SL. I'll bet there's even more attention given to anchoring this year.

[Dave R]

Hate to say this but... The 45 MPH daytime part of the speed limit is not as bad as I thought it would be.

I am against the speed limit in principle, because I feel speed is not an issue on the lake. What I have seen this year has made me realize that the speed limit is making MY boating more fun. I have found that the bays are a lot more civilized, due to less overtaking. This is especially true in Alton Bay, an area I frequent. I still overtake boats on Alton Bay, but I'm far less likely to be overtaken now. As the overtaker, I'm the give-way boat and I am more confident in my ability to be the give-way captain than I am relying on someone else to be. This is something I had not considered, and has actually encouraged me to operate my boat faster in bays than I ever used to. It's nice not seeng boats bearing down on me from behind as I prepare to alter course to overtake another boat. I imagine the boat I am overtaking has a very different perspective though...

I think no speed limit in the broads is a good idea, but I can live with 45, and here's why: All the intelligent boaters know that speed limit really does not matter in the broads. One can operate as fast as one wants to out there with no chance of ever being ticketed by following one simple rule of physics. This simple rule also happens to be a very safe rule to follow and will completely prevent collisions and fear. Frankly, I like the idea that only smart poeple can get away with speeding. If someone gets convicted (fairly) of speeding in the daytime, on this lake, they have to be pretty dumb and operating unsafely.

I think the 25 MPH night time limit is at least 5 MPH too slow. 30 is perfectly safe on nights with plenty off moonlight, or an hour or two after sunset.

I am still against the boating speed limit, but I would support a compromise that limited speeds in the bays and increased speed limits to at least 30 at night, lake-wide.

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I'm just astounded at your "well over 600 hours" this year. In a year of pretty bad weather, that's an astounding accomplishment. (

Originally Posted by chmeeee

Wow, 600 hours, that's pretty impressive. Almost like a full time job! Actually, it is a full time job, that would be 40 hours per week assuming you've been out since the beginning of May.

You guys really like to give a hard time, eh? Is there a limit to how much time I can spend on the lake? Do I need your permission? I thought I could say (unlike many on the this forum) that my boating does not impact anyone but me, but I guess I am wrong. My boats are very quite, and although my power boat is pretty fast (goes about 45...a pretty fast speed for a boat), my speed has never put anyone else at risk of caused them fear, and I have never had a violation because I adhere to all of our laws, even those I disagree with. How could my boating possibly offend you? And I'm the "troll"?

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I just put about 8 hours on this weekend. That's a third of my entire summer hours now, a new low

Judging by your dedication to this forum (a whopping 20-some posts since Friday), I'm surprised you've been able to get that much boating time in. Do you have a satellite connection in the boat out in VT? You are the last person that should be challenging how someone occupies their time. Do you have any other interests besides posting from VT on a NH speed limit forum? ... about an activity you only do for 24 hours a year?

Originally Posted by chmeeee

I did in fact see the biggest GFB I've ever seen twice on Sunday. It was a 52 foot something or other with a closed cockpit.

That looks like the same boat I saw last week. And you don't think that looks silly on a crowded lake? Was he still wearing his Helmet and PFD? Did he still have his tail between his legs from last week's spanking? I'm surprised he came back, but not surprised he was now respecting the law. But I must say that helmet really was a laugh. Surpized he wasn't wearing an Evil Kneevil cape too.

Originally Posted by chmeeee

I look back and see a 25 or so foot center console steaming towards me, he banked right about 75 feet behind me and passed by my starboard side about 20 feet off, still maximum wake (in the NWZ). I honked, he smiled and kept going towards Sheps, never slowing below 20 mph or so.

I hear ya. This must have been annoying. Now take this boat and double it in length, triple it in weight, and quadruple it in speed and imagine how your annoyance woudl have changed to terror as he approached.

I wrote a very frank and sincere post about what you guys need to do to help save your pastime on the remaining lakes. You have jerks out there who do not belong in the "cock pits" of these huge boats, and they have cost you some of your freedoms already. Yet you continue to direct your anger at the "victims" rather than the "criminals". Challenging silly details of the posts of people who enjoy passive pastimes like fishing and sailing, and trying to scare them from voicing their opinions is not going to help you avoid seeing more speed limits enacted on the other lakes around the region. If you don't concentrate on removing the GFBL Boneheads from the remaining lakes and if the problems Winnipesaukee used to have persist on those lakes, then the people of those lakes are going to see how well the SL is working here and are going to want to copy it. Then you will have no place left without rules. Stop focusing on me and how many hours I get to spend in my boats and start directing your anger at the right group. Stop high-fiving the few law-breakers who are still speeding here and thinking that they are doing you some big favor. They are your worst enemies, yet you are too blind to see that. I write this in all sincerity.

I'm getting very frustrated and thinking that my time might be better spent than trying to debate with this group on this issue anymore. As they say; you can lead a horse to water, and I've really run into a bunch of non-thirsty horses. When people start threatening to "investigate" me and start ridiculing my amount of boating, then it is clear that logic is just being wasted and that this is not a worthwhile investment of time I'd rather be spending on the lake on such sunny days as this. You guys are clearly devoted to your cause and have decided that insulting and intimidating those who disagree is somehow going to get a wonderful law that the rest of society is enjoying to be repealed. Why should I try to steer you from that misguided tactic? It worked so well for you last time. If I promise to stay out of these threads, will you stop talking about me, ridiculing me, and leave me alone?

[pm203]

Originally Posted by elchase

. And you don't think that looks silly on a crowded lake? Was he still wearing his Helmet and PFD? Did he still have his tail between his legs from last week's spanking? I'm surprised he came back, but not surprised he was now respecting the law. But I must say that helmet really was a laugh. Surpized he wasn't wearing an Evil Kneevil cape too.

This boat and its owner were in no way reprimanded by the MP. The MP were in awe of the boat and wanted a closer look at it. Of course, the story gets twisted, but what else is new?

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by pm203

This boat and its owner were in no way reprimanded by the MP. The MP were in awe of the boat and wanted a closer look at it. Of course, the story gets twisted, but what else is new?

Is that the boat that was going 90 and suddenly slowed down to 25 mph when he saw the MP boat?

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Is that the boat that was going 90 and suddenly slowed down to 25 mph when he saw the MP boat?

And put his rooster tail between his legs.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

stand up and admit "we just don't like large expensive boats and want them gone"

But I believe one finally has, I added the bold text.

Originally Posted by elchase

That looks like the same boat I saw last week. And you don't think that looks silly on a crowded lake? Was he still wearing his Helmet and PFD? Did he still have his tail between his legs from last week's spanking? I'm surprised he came back, but not surprised he was now respecting the law. But I must say that helmet really was a laugh. Surpized he wasn't wearing an Evil Kneevil cape too.

I must add I am quite impressed that you could see the operator wearing a helmet and PFD in a closed cockpit boat.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by jmen24

But I believe one finally has, I added the bold text.



I must add I am quite impressed that you could see the operator wearing a helmet and PFD in a closed cockpit boat.

You know what... The one thing I agree on with Elchase is that boat does look a little silly on the lake. So what?? I completely disagree he shouldn't be alowed to boat there.

Just like I am trying to find the time and money to ride a PWC from Miami to the Bahamas. I will also look silly but I am still going to do it and don't want someone telling me I can't.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

You know what... The one thing I agree on with Elchase is that boat does look a little silly on the lake. So what?? I completely disagree he shouldn't be alowed to boat there.

Just like I am trying to find the time and money to ride a PWC from Miami to the Bahamas. I will also look silly but I am still going to do it and don't want someone telling me I can't.

It is kind of like those medium duty trucks I see people turning into pickup trucks. To each their own though, which is how I feel about that boat.

[gtagrip]

Originally Posted by elchase

You guys really like to give a hard time, eh? Is there a limit to how much time I can spend on the lake? Do I need your permission? I thought I could say (unlike many on the this forum) that my boating does not impact anyone but me, but I guess I am wrong. My boats are very quite, and although my power boat is pretty fast (goes about 45...a pretty fast speed for a boat), my speed has never put anyone else at risk of caused them fear, and I have never had a violation because I adhere to all of our laws, even those I disagree with. How could my boating possibly offend you? And I'm the "troll"?


Judging by your dedication to this forum (a whopping 20-some posts since Friday), I'm surprised you've been able to get that much boating time in. Do you have a satellite connection in the boat out in VT? You are the last person that should be challenging how someone occupies their time. Do you have any other interests besides posting from VT on a NH speed limit forum? ... about an activity you only do for 24 hours a year?

That looks like the same boat I saw last week. And you don't think that looks silly on a crowded lake? Was he still wearing his Helmet and PFD? Did he still have his tail between his legs from last week's spanking? I'm surprised he came back, but not surprised he was now respecting the law. But I must say that helmet really was a laugh. Surpized he wasn't wearing an Evil Kneevil cape too.

I hear ya. This must have been annoying. Now take this boat and double it in length, triple it in weight, and quadruple it in speed and imagine how your annoyance woudl have changed to terror as he approached.

I wrote a very frank and sincere post about what you guys need to do to help save your pastime on the remaining lakes. You have jerks out there who do not belong in the "cock pits" of these huge boats, and they have cost you some of your freedoms already. Yet you continue to direct your anger at the "victims" rather than the "criminals". Challenging silly details of the posts of people who enjoy passive pastimes like fishing and sailing, and trying to scare them from voicing their opinions is not going to help you avoid seeing more speed limits enacted on the other lakes around the region. If you don't concentrate on removing the GFBL Boneheads from the remaining lakes and if the problems Winnipesaukee used to have persist on those lakes, then the people of those lakes are going to see how well the SL is working here and are going to want to copy it. Then you will have no place left without rules. Stop focusing on me and how many hours I get to spend in my boats and start directing your anger at the right group. Stop high-fiving the few law-breakers who are still speeding here and thinking that they are doing you some big favor. They are your worst enemies, yet you are too blind to see that. I write this in all sincerity.

I'm getting very frustrated and thinking that my time might be better spent than trying to debate with this group on this issue anymore. As they say; you can lead a horse to water, and I've really run into a bunch of non-thirsty horses. When people start threatening to "investigate" me and start ridiculing my amount of boating, then it is clear that logic is just being wasted and that this is not a worthwhile investment of time I'd rather be spending on the lake on such sunny days as this. You guys are clearly devoted to your cause and have decided that insulting and intimidating those who disagree is somehow going to get a wonderful law that the rest of society is enjoying to be repealed. Why should I try to steer you from that misguided tactic? It worked so well for you last time. If I promise to stay out of these threads, will you stop talking about me, ridiculing me, and leave me alone?

When you make unrealistic claims of 600 hours on the lake and a 14 foot boat going 25mph could not kill you if struck, what do you expect?

[tis]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

In my opinion the speed limit is working.



I know you will say they are wasting dollars chasing speeders. However there have been no speeding tickets written so that can't be true.

If there have been no tickets, then there isn't a need for the law. I think that proves it. If all these people were speeding, surely they would have caught someone! I am sure there have been tickets for the others offenses, showing there is a need for some of those laws.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by tis

If there have been no tickets, then there isn't a need for the law. I think that proves it. If all these people were speeding, surely they would have caught someone! I am sure there have been tickets for the others offenses, showing there is a need for some of those laws.

That's not true. Anyone can see that people have slowed down...just sit on the dock and watch. People used to blow by here at 70 MPH, now they don't. Everyone around here at least is commenting on how the noise problem is so much improved as well. Speed limit not working? Ridiculous.

[BroadHopper]

OK so the SL is working. Everyone is slowing down.

But the Boneheads are worst than ever. They know that valuable MP resources are tied up on radar training and buying radars. So they are having a field day!

I have slowed down a bit. Not because of the SL. Because of the gas prices and economy.

Last Tuesday night, when I was showing guests the Bahre estate, I notice a storm coming the NW. I took a full throttle return home to Lakeport across the Broads. Damn right I was speeding. I'm not going to be caught in a thuderstorm. Ironically, there were several boats doing the same thing. Including a MP RIB. I'm surprise he didn't pull anyone over.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

OK so the SL is working. Everyone is slowing down.

But the Boneheads are worst than ever. They know that valuable MP resources are tied up on radar training and buying radars. So they are having a field day!

I have slowed down a bit. Not because of the SL. Because of the gas prices and economy.

Last Tuesday night, when I was showing guests the Bahre estate, I notice a storm coming the NW. I took a full throttle return home to Lakeport across the Broads. Damn right I was speeding. I'm not going to be caught in a thuderstorm. Ironically, there were several boats doing the same thing. Including a MP RIB. I'm surprise he didn't pull anyone over.

Thank You for acknowledging the SL is working.

I think speeding to get home just before or during a thunderstorm is an unwritten exception to the rules. In fact its not all that unwritten. The concept of "force majeure" says you can break the law in extreme circumstances. Like robbing a bank when someone is holding a gun on your family. Dozens of boats go through the Bear Island NWZ full speed just before and during a bad storm. And I have seen the MP watch them and do nothing. I have done it myself with no feeling of guilt.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by elchase

Thanks Steve, I had a great day on the lake. It was hot and sunny here and Winnipesaukee was very busy, but very civilized again. Hope you enjoyed the day up on your lake.
I just can't get over the difference a simple little law has made. You might not be able to see that from your vantage in VT, but having been out on Lake Winnipesaukee for well over 600 hours so far this spring/summer, I have witnessed the improvement first hand.

Glad everything's working out for you El. I'm just astounded at your "well over 600 hours" this year. In a year of pretty bad weather, that's an astounding accomplishment. I just put about 8 hours on this weekend. That's a third of my entire summer hours now, a new low

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Thank You for acknowledging the SL is working.

I think speeding to get home just before or during a thunderstorm is an unwritten exception to the rules. In fact its not all that unwritten. The concept of "force majeure" says you can break the law in extreme circumstances. Like robbing a bank when someone is holding a gun on your family. Dozens of boats go through the Bear Island NWZ full speed just before and during a bad storm. And I have seen the MP watch them and do nothing. I have done it myself with no feeling of guilt.

I agree with you here BI. But if the the bill makes 45 statutary then that means the above unwritten law is no longer true. Keeping it arbitrary and 'reasonable and prudent' fits in very well.

That being said. The current law can be pretty vague when it comes to court play. The judge has a pretty grey area to play with.

I wonder how ELChase will feel if we full throttle through Meredith Bay to escape a thunderstorm. 'Not in my backyard!'

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I wonder how ELChase will feel if we full throttle through Meredith Bay to escape a thunderstorm. 'Not in my backyard!'

I'd have no problem with people running for safety in my backyard and have never indicated otherwise, but your post is obviously not about my tolerance, it is saying "Although you've never told us, we have been investigating and know where you live". Not much of an investigation since my address is listed with my phone number next to my name...alphabetically...Nice detective work. This also explains some of the weird hang-ups we've been getting.
Is this what happens to people who do not agree with you? Do you think it helps your cause to intimidate those who don't carry your water, scare them off the forum, then say "Look, everyone who is still posting here opposes the speed limit, therefore it should be repealed."? You guys are no different on the forum than you are on the lake ..."Get out or our way"...You are nothing but a bunch of bullies, then you cry that you are being "discriminated against". Disliking bullies is not a hate crime.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by elchase

I'd have no problem with people running for safety in my backyard and have never indicated otherwise, but your post is obviously not about my tolerance, it is saying "Although you've never told us, we have been investigating and know where you live". Not much of an investigation since my address is listed with my phone number next to my name...alphabetically...Nice detective work. This also explains some of the weird hang-ups we've been getting.
Is this what happens to people who do not agree with you? Do you think it helps your cause to intimidate those who don't carry your water, scare them off the forum, then say "Look, everyone who is still posting here opposes the speed limit, therefore it should be repealed."? You guys are no different on the forum than you are on the lake ..."Get out or our way"...You are nothing but a bunch of bullies, then you cry that you are being "discriminated against". Disliking bullies is not a hate crime.

It's not rocket science. Your grammar, phrases, texts etc. is the same as before.

While you are trolling here. You have not given one solitary compromise to the speed limit issue. That is what this thread is all about. Play the game or get out!

[VtSteve]

Some good solutions up there.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by elchase

I'd have no problem with people running for safety in my backyard and have never indicated otherwise, but your post is obviously not about my tolerance, it is saying "Although you've never told us, we have been investigating and know where you live". Not much of an investigation since my address is listed with my phone number next to my name...alphabetically...Nice detective work. This also explains some of the weird hang-ups we've been getting.
Is this what happens to people who do not agree with you? Do you think it helps your cause to intimidate those who don't carry your water, scare them off the forum, then say "Look, everyone who is still posting here opposes the speed limit, therefore it should be repealed."? You guys are no different on the forum than you are on the lake ..."Get out or our way"...You are nothing but a bunch of bullies, then you cry that you are being "discriminated against". Disliking bullies is not a hate crime.

You should NOT be harrassed because of your words or actions and hope that no one from this forum is doing so.

I don't care where you live, who you are, if you are a multi-nicker or anything else about you. Most people have way too much on their plate to waste their time trying to find out.

This thread was started to discuss compromises which has been done pretty well in many of the 212 posts above this one. You, on the other hand, have not offered one compromise. Between that and your smarmy attitude you have put yourself at odds with virtually everyone on this forum. There is no bullying going on, but when you put forth incindiery comments, expect a like response.

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

It's not rocket science. Your grammar, phrases, texts etc. is the same as before.

I can't even figure out how to respond. You are criticizing MY grammar? Even when I jumble the words around I can't guess what this was supposed to mean. Please say it in English.

Originally Posted by VitaBene

You should be harrassed because of your words...

I truncated "and actions" from the quote because there have been no actions. But this shows the mentality of the people we are dealing with here. You think I want to make friends with people like this? Besides the guy who claims to be a boater yet seems logged into this forum 24-7 and has not had a non-SL post since he joined (be HE is not a troll), I feel like I'm debating with a bunch of leg-breakers. And this behavior is supposed to help you with Concord? I disagree on what the best compromise is, so people are conducting covert operations to find out where I live and calling my home to harass, and you justify such outrageous behavior because I allegedly "have not offered one compromise" (that suits you).
I will say it again. The current law is a perfect compromise between the mayhem we had on this lake up until 2007 and the "Golden Pond" that nobody really wants or expects. It allows boats to go pretty darn fast (up to 45 mph) anywhere on the lake that is not restricted by some other pre-exisiting law, and it leaves almost all of the other lakes open to whatever behavior you guys deem "prudent". That sounds like a pretty fair compromise to me.
You guys want a compromise of the compromise, but that is not compromising, it is taking. The SL law is working just great. I was out on the lake for 6 hours this morning and saw one boat that might have been breaking it. The weather has been great for over 5 weeks straight now, so that is no longer an excuse. Crowds of tourists are back, so that is no excuse. Gas is much lower this year so that is no excuse. You guys simply cannot accept the fact that the SL was a good idea, has worked, and should be made permanent. We will never agree, and I will not suggest some "compromise" to take us back towards the troubles that got us here.
Harass all you want. I'll be back on the lake enjoying the civility in three minutes while you guys sit by your computers calculating my daily boating time to try to disprove it.

Broadhopper, Hope my grammar, text, and phrases were ok.

[OCDACTIVE]

There have been many requests put nicely, hinted at and said in a round about way.

So let me try the direct approach.

EL CHASE. We know what you think, we know you have no wish to discuss changing anything what so ever, in any shape or form.

This thread is not your sounding board to oppose changes. You started a supporters thread to do just that. We (opposers) have stayed out of that per the web masters request, respecting what that threads intentions are.

If you want to start an Speed Limit argument thread feel free.

If you are not interested in discussing anything other then leaving the SL as is. PLEASE GO BACK TO THE SUPPORTERS THREAD. (clear enough?)

Your continous banter trying to get this thread shut down is no longer appreciated. Humerous at first but now is just annoying.

Again, I ask the webmaster to assist so that we can continue to discuss a compromise without this continuous back and forth.

[4Fun]

I just wish someone from the proponent side would be "Man" enough to just stand up and admit "we just don't like large expensive boats and want them gone" and stop playing the almighty safety card. Let's debate the real problem.

It gets tiring defending a position when you know saftey is not really even the argument.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

I just wish someone from the proponent side would be "Man" enough to just stand up and admit "we just don't like large expensive boats and want them gone" and stop playing the almighty safety card. Let's debate the real problem.

It gets tiring defending a position when you know saftey is not really even the argument.

I think this post summed it up nicely for the other side. It read like a closed-door meeting of Winfabs.


http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&postcount=188

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by elchase

I can't even figure out how to respond. You are criticizing MY grammar? Even when I jumble the words around I can't guess what this was supposed to mean. Please say it in English.


I truncated "and actions" from the quote because there have been no actions. But this shows the mentality of the people we are dealing with here. You think I want to make friends with people like this? Besides the guy who claims to be a boater yet seems logged into this forum 24-7 and has not had a non-SL post since he joined (be HE is not a troll), I feel like I'm debating with a bunch of leg-breakers. And this behavior is supposed to help you with Concord? I disagree on what the best compromise is, so people are conducting covert operations to find out where I live and calling my home to harass, and you justify such outrageous behavior because I allegedly "have not offered one compromise" (that suits you).
I will say it again. The current law is a perfect compromise between the mayhem we had on this lake up until 2007 and the "Golden Pond" that nobody really wants or expects. It allows boats to go pretty darn fast (up to 45 mph) anywhere on the lake that is not restricted by some other pre-exisiting law, and it leaves almost all of the other lakes open to whatever behavior you guys deem "prudent". That sounds like a pretty fair compromise to me.
You guys want a compromise of the compromise, but that is not compromising, it is taking. The SL law is working just great. I was out on the lake for 6 hours this morning and saw one boat that might have been breaking it. The weather has been great for over 5 weeks straight now, so that is no longer an excuse. Crowds of tourists are back, so that is no excuse. Gas is much lower this year so that is no excuse. You guys simply cannot accept the fact that the SL was a good idea, has worked, and should be made permanent. We will never agree, and I will not suggest some "compromise" to take us back towards the troubles that got us here.
Harass all you want. I'll be back on the lake enjoying the civility in three minutes while you guys sit by your computers calculating my daily boating time to try to disprove it.

Broadhopper, Hope my grammar, text, and phrases were ok.

Since the speed limit is working "so well", we should probably fight to get them to bring it down to 35 mph during the day and 15 mph at night! That will SURELY solve all the problems on the lake...If that doesn't work next year, we'll have to fight for 25 day/5 night!

[granitebox]

elchase is well past the "annoying" adjective....he's likely converting some supporters in the process.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by elchase

I can't even figure out how to respond. You are criticizing MY grammar? Even when I jumble the words around I can't guess what this was supposed to mean. Please say it in English.


I truncated "and actions" from the quote because there have been no actions. But this shows the mentality of the people we are dealing with here. You think I want to make friends with people like this? Besides the guy who claims to be a boater yet seems logged into this forum 24-7 and has not had a non-SL post since he joined (be HE is not a troll), I feel like I'm debating with a bunch of leg-breakers. And this behavior is supposed to help you with Concord? I disagree on what the best compromise is, so people are conducting covert operations to find out where I live and calling my home to harass, and you justify such outrageous behavior because I allegedly "have not offered one compromise" (that suits you).
I will say it again. The current law is a perfect compromise between the mayhem we had on this lake up until 2007 and the "Golden Pond" that nobody really wants or expects. It allows boats to go pretty darn fast (up to 45 mph) anywhere on the lake that is not restricted by some other pre-exisiting law, and it leaves almost all of the other lakes open to whatever behavior you guys deem "prudent". That sounds like a pretty fair compromise to me.
You guys want a compromise of the compromise, but that is not compromising, it is taking. The SL law is working just great. I was out on the lake for 6 hours this morning and saw one boat that might have been breaking it. The weather has been great for over 5 weeks straight now, so that is no longer an excuse. Crowds of tourists are back, so that is no excuse. Gas is much lower this year so that is no excuse. You guys simply cannot accept the fact that the SL was a good idea, has worked, and should be made permanent. We will never agree, and I will not suggest some "compromise" to take us back towards the troubles that got us here.
Harass all you want. I'll be back on the lake enjoying the civility in three minutes while you guys sit by your computers calculating my daily boating time to try to disprove it.

Broadhopper, Hope my grammar, text, and phrases were ok.

Elchase, please note I missed a key word and have edited it (and no, it was not a Fruedian slip). You should never be harrassed off line over an internet forum. If you are because of a SL debate, that is pretty disgusting.

Regarding the civility- it is Tuesday last time I checked usually not the busiest day of the week.

The reason that most of us regular runabout boaters take issue with your point of view is that you cannot get past the SL being some panacea that cures all that is bad. Some of the things I saw coming back in from Moultonborough Bay on Sunday headed through the buoys that lead to Suissevale were amazing (in view of MP I might add, but it was so busy that the wiser course of action on his part perhaps was to ignore).

I think more of us than you think could care less about a speed limit because our boats can barely exceed it- we do care that the more important rules need to be enforced and that those enforcement efforts should not suffer because MP is trying to catch the few boats speeding that are capable of doing so. I don't oppose a SL, I oppose the notion that it is going to fix anything.

I don't care what you say- whether a 14 foot jon boat with a 25 or a 7000 lb GFBL runs you over, you will be just as dead. But guess what, if either is a 150' away from me the only way I can be harmed is if he shoots me.

If your true agenda is to rid the lake of large boats, good luck with that. If that happens, the economy of the region will be decimated.

But again, you should NOT be harrassed offline- debated with here, certainly, even heatedly.

Regarding your time on the lake, I think most are envious. I hope you get 1200 hours in, I love seeing people enjoy our lake.

Originally Posted by VitaBene

Elchase, please note I missed a key word and have edited it (and no, it was not a Fruedian slip).

Thanks Sir, your correction is noted and appreciated. My comments still hold though for those who gave the original post their "thanks". Maybe it speaks towards just who has been making the calls.

Originally Posted by VitaBene

If your true agenda is to rid the lake of large boats, good luck with that.

I have absolutely no agenda. I only want to preserve the status quo, which has been very civil and enjoyable. Preserving the status quo is the antithesis of an agenda. Those who want to see things go back to or towards the anarchy we had on the lake up until a couple of years ago are the ones with an agenda, and a sorry one, in my view.

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

This thread is not your sounding board to oppose changes. You started a supporters thread to do just that. We (opposers) have stayed out of that per the web masters request, respecting what that threads intentions are.

I have stayed away from the opposers thread in respect for the webmaster's directive. He indicated that all threads except the opposers thread and supporters thread were open for both sides to debate. You want a monopoly on all threads except the supporters thread and that was not the rule as I understood, but I will certainly respect that if the moderator changes the directive. Meanwhile, the supporters thread is for people who enjoy the benefits of the current law and want to share their support for and positive anecdotes about it. I understood the opposers thread to be for people who are dissatisfied with the current law and want to share their opposition to and negative anecdotes about it, and suggestions for changing it. You seem to feel that this thread is only for people who are dissatisfied with the current law and want to share their opposition to and negative anecdotes about it, and suggestions for changing it. That to me sounds more like the description of the opposers thread, and I suggest that it is you, Sir, that is in the wrong thread. Who put you in charge?

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

I ask the webmaster to assist

So do I.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by elchase

So do I.

All you wish is to get these threads shut down to further your agenda. I have been more the civil in all of my posts although you have baited everyone of them. Trolling gets you no where so you continue to pick a fight...

You have been asked very politely to go elsewhere concerning this thread. I have even suggested you start an argument thread but you continue to banter.

You are not only trolling you are beginning to define Troll...

Why do you continue to cause issues when as you can see people are actually in here trying to compromise? You obviously do not want to compromise so please be gone.

Oh the reason you don't is no one follows you....

You feel the GFB needs attention.. Look in the mirror.

[OCDACTIVE]

So lets get back to what this thread was started for.....

From what I have seen there has been a few specific compromises set forth.

Maybe VTsteve could get a poll going (I am not that great with computers)

1. Current law - Broads unlimited
2. compromised speed:
A. 50 day 30 night
B. 55 day 35 night
C. 65 day 35 night
D. unlimited day 30 night
(I believe I got them all, so I apolgize if I missed one)
3. limits in specific bays only.
4. No limits but keeping current verbage of current law eliminating the specific speed limits.
5. (for supporters) keep as is.
6. Keep Laws in place but unlimited over a specific distance
A. 300 ft
B. 500 ft
C. 1000 ft
7. Unlimited (no limits)

I think after reading back through all the "Non-compromising" posts this is all of them. Please point out if I missed any.

Anyone want to start the comments on what you think are the most plausible?

(and yes EL we know your answer is #5, so no need for comment)

[Just Sold]

Elchase
You have had your 30 seconds and then some and in that time you have driven your point home so deep that it is obvious that others who have posted in this thread and me have been worn out by your continual justification of your view and right to discuss the SL. We have heard you from the 3^rd post of this thread to now.
I respect your right to comment and be a part of this discussion but you have literally worn out your point so that it is now deader than dead. Please take a break and understand Ocdactive is right – let’s get back to what this thread is about – a discussion about compromise as it relates to the SL which you are definitely not in favor of and I know everyone understands that by now.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...(and yes EL we know your answer is #5, so no need for comment)

1) Last I checked, this thread remains open to both sides for comments.

2) My vote (and the votes of ALL of my family, my tenants, and many other lakeside—but unrecognized—tenants) is the same: #5.

(But see below).

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...Anyone want to start the comments on what you think are the most plausible...?"

The previous suggestion for a reduction in exhaust noise was left off.

A promised reduction of "Exhaust Noise" could go a long way towards getting any compromise through legislation. (If, as opponents have contended, that noise was a factor in WinnFABS' "agenda").

I'll "liberalize" that compromise even more by adding that a boat that is inaudible at six miles distance will be granted unlimited speeds on Winnipesaukee. How about THAT?

Those that fail (and had exceeded 65-MPH) will pay a fee to the NHMP at the rate of $100 per decibel over the present 86dB limit.

A different thread's suggestion of a "Lake Winnipesaukee-only-license" sounds like another valuable piece to add to the compromises previously stated.

IMHO.

[LakeSnake]

If a proposal is going to voted on I suggest that we some how "elect" two proposals in case the most popular gets shot down by the legislature out of the gate for some unforseen reason. Just always good to have a plan B on the ready. I'm not sure how to do that with the forum poll's? Maybe two seperate polls? (I'm out of school on the technical forum stuff)

[NoRegrets]

OCDACTIVE - Nice job at directing the thread to a summary and evaluation process.

How about this for a compromise?

Let the year finish and wait for next year to run its course. Maybe the weather and economy will change and we can collect more statistics we can all argue about.

At the end of that period let the debate start again.

Oh wait, that was what was supposed to happen so it really is not a compromise.

What happened? The process has been hijacked by whom for what benefit?

Now we must compromise to get back on track to an unfinished and agreed upon process.

Maybe we should fight to get back on track – sorry not much of a compromise!

PS. As a long time reader but embarrasing light contributer I really appriciate the effort many of you have done over the years to keep the content and discussions entertaining!

[Shreddy]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

1) Last I checked, this thread remains open to both sides for comments.

2) My vote (and the votes of ALL of my family, my tenants, and many other lakeside—but unrecognized—tenants) is the same: #5.

(But see below).


The previous suggestion for a reduction in exhaust noise was left off.

A promised reduction of "Exhaust Noise" could go a long way towards getting any compromise through legislation. (If, as opponents have contended, that noise was a factor in WinnFABS' "agenda").

I'll "liberalize" that compromise even more by adding that a boat that is inaudible at six miles distance will be granted unlimited speeds on Winnipesaukee. How about THAT?

Those that fail (and had exceeded 65-MPH) will pay a fee to the NHMP at the rate of $100 per decibel over the present 86dB limit.

A different thread's suggestion of a "Lake Winnipesaukee-only-license" sounds like another valuable piece to add to the compromises previously stated.

IMHO.

WOW, I feel honored! APS is giving me credit for my idea of the Winnipesaukee only license! Unless of course, somebody else suggested it too. Today is going to be a good day

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

1) Last I checked, this thread remains open to both sides for comments.

2) My vote (and the votes of ALL of my family, my tenants, and many other lakeside—but unrecognized—tenants) is the same: #5.

(But see below).


The previous suggestion for a reduction in exhaust noise was left off.

A promised reduction of "Exhaust Noise" could go a long way towards getting any compromise through legislation. (If, as opponents have contended, that noise was a factor in WinnFABS' "agenda").

I'll "liberalize" that compromise even more by adding that a boat that is inaudible at six miles distance will be granted unlimited speeds on Winnipesaukee. How about THAT?

Those that fail (and had exceeded 65-MPH) will pay a fee to the NHMP at the rate of $100 per decibel over the present 86dB limit.

A different thread's suggestion of a "Lake Winnipesaukee-only-license" sounds like another valuable piece to add to the compromises previously stated.

IMHO.

APS, appreciate the comments (on both sides) however you can only beat a dead horse so many times... If anyone wants to post new fresh ideas then by all means go for it. Trying to derail the thread by trolling is what I meant by (no comment needed)

I also see you point of decibel levels. You have always been a proponent of sound restrictions. While I do not agree with them, I do recognize your position and applaud you for sticking to it over the years.

I can not speak for other GFBL boaters on the forum, however there are engines that can not go thru hub or under water exhaust. The back pressure would be too much. I have put Gibson Mufflers on my boat that brings the decible level down to "legal" standards on the lake. It used to be MUCH MUCH louder (music to my ears but I can understand not to everyone else on the lake)

What upsets me is I would be more then willing to also install captains call on my boat. Similar to silent choice. It allows for the engine to be further muffled under 2000 RPMS. This works very well when you are near shore, idleing through canals, or starting your boat at the dock. I would be more then happy to use it and still keep my mufflers on. However, our state legislatures, most of whom have never been on a boat, in their infinate wisdom banned switchable exhaust. While I see the other side (you always have that one guy who doesn't run mufflers with switchable) overall the lake would be a much quieter place. I see plenty of boats now that have no mufflers might as well allow switchable exhaust for those of us who will actually use it.

As for a Winni only license... I really don't think it would help the economy or is a realisitic idea. It is fine for those of us who predominently boat there but it could drive new comers away.. IMHO

[4Fun]

I agree with the noise issue. I am a gear head myself but there really is no reason for excessive noise. If you can hear a boat 2 miles away I say it is probably too loud.

I also suggest if GBFL boats were significantly quieter in the past there would be no speed limit today. It's the same with snowmobiles. If the noise is low people ignore them.

[VtSteve]

I like it

I don't mind a little noise. But straight pipes, dry pipes, whatever, is way too much on a small lake. It gets old real fast. Some lakes have banned the Captain's Call/Silent Choice, which is pretty stupid IMO, and defeats the purpose. The reason they did this is that it's a PITA to pull boats over for sound testing. I understand this. Maybe someone can chime in with their thoughts on how to better police this.

For licensing issues. The wonderful little certificate is a good instruction for all boaters, not just newbies. Winni is not the only waterway, so why not make it consistent? People need on the water tests, just as in cars. Perhaps a new business for some enterprising people, perhaps a new revenue stream for the MP. However it's done, another series of common sense procedures would have to be developed in order to accomplish this. Given the bureaucracy that exists everywhere, probably an ETA of around 2-3 years?

I envision someone taking their own boat, or a rental boat, out with an instructor. The applicant would then go through some basic maneuvers and try to pass the test, and more importantly, learn something. There could even be on the water instruction similar in fashion to driver's ed. Before everyone goes all crazy on this, let me finish.
It would cover

Navigation, charts, markers, buoys
Trouble spots, congested areas
NWZ's, bridges, harbors and bays
How to deal with traffic safely, how to plan your moves ahead of time
Best way to navigate through waves, rough water scenarios
Safety in watersports (always high on the list of injuries)
Safety in refueling
Docking, securing the boat properly
Anything else people can think of

This would impact everyone on the lake. The course instruction could be administered through the MP, Power Squadron, whomever. The fees would not only cover costs, but would also be structured to provide revenue for the MP, preferably in their in-between budget times.

I'll leave the details as to how and how much, what happens to boaters that are on the lake and time limits, etc... to people in the MP.

My first choice would be to start this up ASAP, and assign a date that every boater had to complete the course by, say 2011 or so. That would give the powers that be time to fine-tune the administration of the courses and such.

I think it would create safer waterways, more aware boaters, and quite possibly help the MP with their funding issues. I have no problem at all paying an extra $100 a year (just a WAG and not a serious number), towards this type of program. Maybe even factor in a (hire an MP to ride with you in your boat option).

Maybe with the additional ammo in their budget, the MP would also be able to effectively deal with the cowboys on the lake. It could also go a long way towards making all boaters more in tune with the real issues, and perhaps establish better rapport with the MP.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

What upsets me is I would be more then willing to also install captains call on my boat. Similar to silent choice. It allows for the engine to be further muffled under 2000 RPMS. This works very well when you are near shore, idleing through canals, or starting your boat at the dock. I would be more then happy to use it and still keep my mufflers on. However, our state legislatures, most of whom have never been on a boat, in their infinate wisdom banned switchable exhaust. While I see the other side (you always have that one guy who doesn't run mufflers with switchable) overall the lake would be a much quieter place. I see plenty of boats now that have no mufflers might as well allow switchable exhaust for those of us who will actually use it.

Excellent topic. What steps would be needed to get the State to accept Captain's Call? I'll be the first one to step up and get this going. This is really a stupid rule and again shows that these lawmakers have no clue when they vote for these issues. Any suggestions would be welcomed and appreciated. LB

[BroadHopper]

If reducing exhaust noise will help with a reasonable compromise for speed limits, then I am for that. We just need to be reasonable as to how much we want to reduce the noise level. 5 DB sounds reasonable.

I'm not sure about licensing. I don't want to take away more resources from the MP. If the bill contains a clause that pays for this than I am OK with it.

As for raising the speed limit, are there any statistics that says the new limit is safe and reasonable? What is the best speed limit for day and or night? I was thinking if there is an average high speed of all mototrized boats manufactured in the US. We can use that number as a base for discussion. I can't find this information, but it doesn't mean it is out there.

The only reason I don't like the 45/25 numbers is that it is based on another lake. I don't think the legislature should apply it to Winnipesaukee!

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by elchase

My comments still hold though for those who gave the original post their "thanks". Maybe it speaks towards just who has been making the calls.

I have been trying to ignore you, but you troll better than I am able to ignore. For the record, my thanks was for adding the bold-ed word "NOT" and it was added after 3:00 PM today. It was not for the original post. I do not support any illegal actions or threats. In the future, please refrain from changing the intend of anything I say.

You really are a piece of work and do everything you can to stir things up. Quite frankly, I cannot understand why you are still able to post, since you add no value to the subject discussion of this thread while breaking at least a few of the forum rules.

Please, get yourself a life!

You are now back on ignore, so do not bother replying.

R2B.