Laconia Daily Sun Letter

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Mr. Weeks and Mr. Chase say that the speed limit has transformed Winnipesaukee from a chaotic and accident-plagued lake to one of peace and harmony. All of their friends and neighbors say this as well.

How many believe this to be true? Why?

I think the real reason 'peace and harmony' have appeared has little to do with the speed limit. Boat traffic in general is down. Ask anyone at the marinas, the gas docks, and the boat ramps, or ask the Marine Patrol. For the second season in a row boat traffic is down. This year there have been a large number of unrented slips, something I've never seen before. Quite a few of my friends ended up trailering their boats rather than renting slips. They didn't go out onto the lake nearly as often as they have in the past.

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Ed Chase of Meredith.

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Mr. Chase

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Ed Chase

Originally Posted by VtSteve

Mr. Chase

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"he who must not be named" or may return.....

You guys really need to stop obsessing. Do you have pictures of me lining the walls of your bedrooms too? Do you Google my name first thing every morning when you turn on your computers? You both apparently spend all your waking hours on this "Anti-Speed Limit" forum, so when do you get time for the hi-speed boating that you supposedly enjoy so much? All this mention of me just tempts me back, and I know you don't want these "Anti-Speed Limit" threads tainted by people who believe in the rule of law.

Originally Posted by Weekend Pundit

'peace and harmony' have appeared

Exactly.

Originally Posted by DoTheMath

chalk it up to the economy and sheer coincidence.

Could those really be the causes? Could "peace and harmony" really have reappeared because of some rain in June? Because of an economic recession? Nice theories, but I don't think so. Isn't it much more plausible that they returned because of the change in the law that forced a return to "peace and harmony"?

Here's a well-articulated story from the same paper that you guys conveniently missed that explains it better;
ftp://www.laconiadailysun.com/Laconiapdf/2009/9/29L.pdf

"For those who need to pilot a boat at 90 MPH, the ocean is nearby
To the editor,
The letters from Mr. Verdonk and
Mr. Stewart exemplify the problems
the high speed boating crowd faces
trying to find fault with a speed limit.
They just don’t know how to find a
problem with such a sensible law, so
they make things up.
While I appreciate that Mr. Stewart
at least had the fortitude to admit
that boaters slowed down because of
the speed limit, saying that the only
thing that did was erode her shoreline
is just plain silly. Why would a “ginormous”
boat going 45 erode her shoreline
and the same boat going 85 not?
If “ginormous” boats are going anything
over headway speed that close
to his shoreline, then he has other
causes to complain besides a speed
limit. If “ginormous” boats were going
that close to my shoreline, I certainly
wouldn’t want them to be going 85
MPH.
And as to Mr. Verdonk’s letter, it is
a common debating trick to start off
with a mischaracterization of your
opponent’s position, then disprove the
mischaracterization. But if one reads
Mr. Verdonk’s letter with my actual
statements in mind, it all falls apart.
I never “attribute the reduced boating
activity to the success of the new
speed limits” as he asserts to set up
his whole letter. In fact, as I said, I was
referring to the times I was seeing as
many if not more boats out there. Several
weekends in August the lake was
as crowded as I’ve ever seen it, but it
just FELT LIKE it was less crowded
because almost everyone was going
slower, as Ms. Stewart also saw. How
did the economy do that? More civility
during sunny days when the lake
is just as crowded has nothing to do
with the economy or bad weather. The
economy and rain might have affected
the boating numbers this year (at
times), but it could only have been the
speed limit that slowed them down, as
Mr. Stewart himself admits.
The typical Granite Stater new to
this whole discussion will ask how
anyone could rationalize opposition to
a reasonable limit of boating speeds
on a lake so crowded with such big
boats. But of course, those who make
a lot of money over-crowding our
lake with over-fast boats and those
who boast about the “need for speed”
are not your typical Granite Staters.
They don’t think rationally. Their selfish
interests and “needs” cloud their
common sense. And they are not interested
in the activities that most Granite
Staters enjoy or that NH wants to
offer tourists to attract them to come
here.
The brochures one picks up at our
rest stops show the natural beauty of
our state. Photos depict our beautiful
lakes and mountains as safe and
open to family recreational activities.
You see canoes and sailboats. You see
families water skiing and fishing. You
see loons and sunsets. Imagine how
many tourists we’d attract if those
brochures instead showed 6-ton boats
flying around at 80-90 mph amongst
the canoes and kayaks? That is not the
NH I grew up in, or that my summer
neighbors want to come to. For every
one tourist such an image attracts to
NH, it will send 100 somewhere else.
See what that does to our economy,
Mr. Verdonk.
Forty-five MPH is a very reasonable
top speed for a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee.
It’s the typical speed limit
on lakes like Winnipesaukee around
the country and has proven effective
over and over. There is not a single
lake-appropriate boating activity that
one cannot enjoy at 45 MPH. And for
those with “the need” to go 90 MPH,
the ocean is just 50 miles down the
road. Anyone who argues that 45 is
too slow for this lake, whether blaming
it on shore erosion, the economy,
the weather, or some other nonsensical
reason, is just not being honest.
As Mr. Chase’s letter said, the bottom
line is that NH’s citizens asked for the
law and seem to love its effects, while
the offenders are obviously unhappy
with it. How many laws can we say
that about? And doesn’t that prove it’s
working?
Jack Weeks
Meredith"


PS; I bet it will take less than one hundred and twenty seconds for OCD to respond.

[jmen24]

Elchase is apparently the type of person that truely enjoys having people talk about him. I would recommend that we do not continue to temp him back, discuss the subject of his posts and pretend that it came out of thin air, he will eventually get frustrated with not having anyone talk about him or his ideals.

[DEJ]

Actually we need to have elchase keep posting, IMO it clearly makes the case of the opposers to the speed limit.

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by jmen24

Elchase is apparently the type of person that truely enjoys having people talk about him. I would recommend that we do not continue to temp him back, discuss the subject of his posts and pretend that it came out of thin air, he will eventually get frustrated with not having anyone talk about him or his ideals.

I have elchase on ignore.

Reading his posts became something I decided I no longer needed to do. If we all had him on ignore, the silence would be golden.

R2B

[gtagrip]

I've got to wonder if these letters submitted by Jack Weeks is also the same infamous "Fat Jack" from the prior speed limit debates back in 06' & 07'? and what possible screen name is he going by now???

[Kracken]

Mr. Chase / Mr. Favre

I have to admire your resiliency. We all understand your position on the speed limit. You wrote your editorials and you have a right to do that. Some speed limit opponents wrote their editorials and they had the right to as well.

I actually think you believe every word you have written. It’s not a lie if one believes its truth. Please give those who oppose you the same consideration.

[OCDACTIVE]

Kracken, Take everyone else's advice and don't bother engaging.. Nothing can come out of it.... No need getting down to that level.

Farve fades back to pass... pressure and is sacked...........

[Kracken]

You are correct OCDACTIVE, I have detracted the question to elchase.

[DoTheMath]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Kracken, Take everyone else's advice and don't bother engaging.. Nothing can come out of it.... No need getting down to that level.

Farve fades back to pass... pressure and is sacked...........

Bingo! Don't feed the trolls...

[hazelnut]

GREAT JOB GILLIGAN!!!

You hit the nail so hard on the head it 'aint even funny!

I couldn't have said it better.

[Sandy Beach]

Gilligan,

What are you doing? Pointing out the fallacies of speed limit proponents might ruin their credibility. The general non-boating public might recognize that these pro speed limit arguments are designed to illicit fear and portray the lake as a scary and unsafe place. They make it sound like it was only fit for dare-devils and did not have a nice family friendly atmosphere. They want the public to believe that the 45-25 mph speed limit has made the lake safe and civil as if it was not like that before the 2 year speed limit experiment.

If you and some of the other irrational thinkers (as some call opponents of the 25 - 45 limit) keep questioning their illogical premises it might sink in to those who are unfamiliar with boating just what kind of scare tactics the pro speed limit crowd is using to elicit their support and appeal to their sensibilities.

Why do you want to ruin their pro-speed limit fantasies? They will out talk you and keep making the same false allegations of a wild lake over and over again until the public gives up and accepts their rhetoric without regard to reality and the truth.

I didn't know the lake was unsafe and uncivil until I started reading what the pro-speed limit minority had to say . And to think I exposed my wife and children to this lake and enjoyed it without absolute speed limits all these years.

disclaimer: I have no connection with the boating or tourist industry and I do not have a boat capable of speeds over 40 mph and I DO NOT support the 45 - 25 mph speed limit.

P.S. Thanks Gilligan

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Sandy Beach

I didn't know the lake was unsafe and uncivil until I started reading what the pro-speed limit minority had to say . And to think I exposed my wife and children to this lake and enjoyed it without absolute speed limits all these years.

disclaimer: I have no connection with the boating or tourist industry and I do not have a boat capable of speeds over 40 mph and I DO NOT support the 45 - 25 mph speed limit.

P.S. Thanks Gilligan

Amazing what one accident caused by an intoxicated boater can do isn't it? A televised debate would be a very, very welcome situation. Once you got past the lies and innuendo, what would be left is crickets chirping.

Some of us tried in earnest to have real discussions, not debates, about safety. The SL supporters wanted nothing to do with any of that. For many life long boaters, safety and enjoyment is what it's all about. The SL supporters have shown they are only interested in their own interests. We have APS, that once said it was great to have motorists blocking the left lane on highways in what he called "rolling roadblocks" or some such thing.

I understand extreme noise and chaos is not popular, I don't like it either and would stop it. Try to engage in rational discussion with these folks and it becomes readily apparent that they don't share your thoughts at all. They want one or more groups of boaters off the lake, pretty much Period.

[VtSteve]

Questions remain.

And will remain unasked

El, I can only direct you to this thread I started, and pretty much spoke my peace. Feel free to contribute.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ead.php?t=8617

[Gilligan]

I won't quote the entire letter but will highlight a few items. I'll also add a few comments in blue

Originally Posted by elchase

Here's a well-articulated story from the same paper that you guys conveniently missed that explains it better;
ftp://www.laconiadailysun.com/Laconiapdf/2009/9/29L.pdf

"For those who need to pilot a boat at 90 MPH, the ocean is nearby what about 60 mph?
To the editor,
The letters from Mr. Verdonk and
Mr. Stewart exemplify the problems
the high speed boating crowd faces
trying to find fault with a speed limit. Not A speed limit, THIS 45/25 mph limit
They just don’t know how to find a
problem with such a sensible law, so
they make things up. who decreed that this 45/25 mph is a sensible law?
While I appreciate that Mr. Stewart
at least had the fortitude to admit
that boaters slowed down because of
the speed limit, saying that the only
thing that did was erode her shoreline
is just plain silly. Why would a “ginormous”
boat going 45 erode her shoreline
and the same boat going 85 not? "ginormous" boat is a very prejudicial term. Fast boats come in all sizes. 16-21 feet is not "ginormous" and we know that slow going boats can PLOW leaving huge wakes that travel more than 150 feet while faster boats, on plane, can leave much smaller wakes.
If “ginormous” boats are going anything
over headway speed that close
to his shoreline, then he has other
causes to complain besides a speed
limit. If “ginormous” boats were going
that close to my shoreline, I certainly
wouldn’t want them to be going 85
MPH. Of course, laws other than "speed limits" are being broken and what if they were going 55 or 60 mph 300 feet from your shore?...

Several weekends in August the lake was
as crowded as I’ve ever seen it, but it
just FELT LIKE it was less crowded slower boats made what was a crowded lake be perceived as a less crowded lake to the writer, interesting.
because almost everyone was going
slower, as Ms. Stewart also saw. How
did the economy do that? More civility
during sunny days when the lake
is just as crowded has nothing to do
with the economy or bad weather. The
economy and rain might have affected
the boating numbers this year (at
times), but it could only have been the
speed limit that slowed them down, as
Mr. Stewart himself admits.

The typical Granite Stater new to
this whole discussion will ask how
anyone could rationalize opposition to
a reasonable limit of boating speeds Who declared that 45/25mph was a reasonable limit. Why not 55/35 or 65/35 or some other speeds?
on a lake so crowded with such big
boats. Oh there are so many big boats you claim why not a size limit instead of a speed limit? Are we being logical?
But of course, those who make
a lot of money over-crowding our
lake with over-fast boats and those
who boast about the “need for speed”
are not your typical Granite Staters.
They don’t think rationally. Their selfish
interests and “needs” cloud their
common sense. I don't make any money from boats, fast or slow. I have no need for speed. My boat can not reach 45 mph and there are MANY of us like that who oppose the 45/25 limit. And we are rational thinkers.
And they are not interested
in the activities that most Granite
Staters enjoy or that NH wants to
offer tourists to attract them to come
here. Says who? How does the writer know this? It's made up.

The brochures one picks up at our
rest stops show the natural beauty of
our state. Photos depict our beautiful
lakes and mountains as safe and
open to family recreational activities.
You see canoes and sailboats. You see
families water skiing and fishing. You
see loons and sunsets. Imagine how
many tourists we’d attract if those
brochures instead showed 6-ton boats
flying around at 80-90 mph amongst
the canoes and kayaks? This makes me laugh. Lets show boats going only 55 or 60 mph, OK? Better yet, how can we tell speed from STILL PICTURES?
That is not the NH I grew up in, Not much is the way it was when I was growing up. The world is growing up or that my summer
neighbors want to come to. For every
one tourist such an image attracts to
NH, it will send 100 somewhere else. I'd tell you what kind of images attract me and many other men, but this thread is not a bikini topic although those have been known get boat operators to slow down
See what that does to our economy,
Mr. Verdonk.
Forty-five MPH is a very reasonable
top speed for a boat on Lake Winnipesaukee.
It’s the typical speed limit
on lakes like Winnipesaukee around
the country and has proven effective
over and over. There is not a single
lake-appropriate boating activity that
one cannot enjoy at 45 MPH. And for
those with “the need” to go 90 MPH,
the ocean is just 50 miles down the
road. Anyone who argues that 45 is
too slow for this lake, It's not to slow for the lake. It's to slow to be a top limit.
whether blaming it on shore erosion, the economy,
the weather, or some other nonsensical
reason, is just not being honest. The writer assusmes that anyone who disagrees with 45/25 is DISHONEST, ouch!
As Mr. Chase’s letter said, the bottom
line is that NH’s citizens asked for the
law and seem to love its effects, while
the offenders are obviously unhappy
with it. How many laws can we say
that about? And doesn’t that prove it’s
working? No it does nott prove it is working. Many of us NONoffenders are unhappy about the 45/25 speed limit law. The writer is simply promulgating propaganda and making false assumptions.
Jack Weeks
Meredith"


PS; I bet it will take less than one hundred and twenty seconds for OCD to respond.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by elchase

PS; I bet it will take less than one hundred and twenty seconds for OCD to respond.

Lost that bet.... not worth it anymore anyway.

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Lost that bet.... not worth it anymore anyway.

Poor boy. That challenge must have been so painful for you to resist. You must have thought "how long do I need to wait to respond without looking like a nerd?". I notice you were "thankyouing" the other posters right off the bat. Are you ever not logged into these threads?
Now try to get outside for a bit today so Mom can pick up your room.

[OCDACTIVE]

didn't you say your good byes? Obviously you are trying to make things personal and I am not taking the bait.

This is why these threads get a bad name and I am not bringing them down as you have shown all along to be your intention.

Have fun on the water.... See you out there.


Farve is playing tonight..

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by elchase

Poor boy. That challenge must have been so painful for you to resist. You must have thought "how long do I need to wait to respond without looking like a nerd?". I notice you were "thankyouing" the other posters right off the bat. Are you ever not logged into these threads?
Now try to get outside for a bit today so Mom can pick up your room.

Elchase is now officially a TROLL after this uncalled for post.Why do you stoop so low?You've lost what little credibility you had now.

[Kracken]

I thought Brett Farve retired?

Then he came back....
Then he retired again
Then he came back....

Now he is saying this is not about revenge????

Looks like revenge to me.

[sunset on the dock]

Hey...aren't we getting all getting a little touchy here about El's last post? Seems as if we've seen more than a couple posts "razzing" him , comments like the the one about him chasing felons, etc., etc., etc. Why all of a sudden this new higher standard for posting? Is it because he's one of the few SL supporters left on the forum who hasn't been badgered into oblivion? There's a few of you who can sure dish it out, but when it comes to taking it in return, well....

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Hey...aren't we getting all getting a little touchy here about El's last post? Seems as if we've seen more than a couple posts "razzing" him , comments like the the one about him chasing felons, etc., etc., etc. Why all of a sudden this new higher standard for posting? Is it because he's one of the few SL supporters left on the forum who hasn't been badgered into oblivion? There's a few of you who can sure dish it out, but when it comes to taking it in return, well....

Sunset... Come on... I have been one of your biggest supporters. We have agreed to disagree on the SL issue and have kept things very cordial in many situations that could have been easily taken the wrong way...

There are many SL supporters that have been on here since day one and still are. They, like yourself, have been involved in some very heated discussions but it never got to the point of any personal attacks. And if it was construed that way it was immediately followed up with an apology.

El has in 68 posts driven his own reputation down. And no one has forced him to do so or to continue to stir the pot.

You have been one of the leading SL supporter and contributer to your cause. Although I don't agree with your views you do put them out there in a very dignified manner and again I applaud you for those actions. Don't get dragged along for the ride leading to no good.