Ice Report 1-9-1010

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I know the answer to my question is "it all depends".

But, how thick should the ice be to "safely" ride a single sled across it?

Thanks

[hazelnut]

Description and thickness1
Strength
Other
clear blue ice, < 3” thick
Unsafe, can break anytime under the weight of an average person
Do not traverse
clear blue ice, 3-5” thick
Capable of holding up a human
Groups should spread out as traveling together will stress the ice
clear blue ice, < 6-8” thick
Capable of supporting a group of people or equipment like a ski mobile
Minimum thickness needed for group activity
clear blue ice, < 8-12” thick
Capable of holding the weight of a car, but why risk it
A car creates a pressure wave a when it crosses the surface of the ice. If the water is four feet deep driving any faster than 9 mph could shatter the ice around you

[hazelnut]

http://safety.dri.edu/FieldSafety/Gu...ons_on_Ice.pdf

Excerpt:

Ice safety
Ice strength is dependent on appearance, thickness, daily temperature, ice history, and snow cover, plus water depth under the ice, the size of the water and water chemistry, currents, and distribution of the load on the ice. Additional points to consider:
�� Don’t judge ice strictly by appearance. Ice can change with the surrounding climate conditions. Temperature, precipitation (such as snow, sleet, rain), wind speed, ice age, water depth and water quality are all factors that affect ice strength and thickness.
�� New ice is usually stronger than old ice because bonds between the crystals decay with age making the ice weaker even if melting has not occurred.
�� Ice thickness over a body of water is not constant. Water currents, particularly around narrow spots, bridges, inlets and outlets, are always suspect for thin ice. Beware of ice around partially submerged objects, such as trees, logs, brush, embankments or dam structures.
�� Snow can act like a blanket insulating the water below. Snow can insulate ice and keep it strong. It can also insulate it to keep it from freezing. Snow cover also hides the surface and can mask rotten ice and thin spots. You should always be cautious when moving across snow-covered ice.
�� Springs and currents can create areas of extreme thickness and patches that are just wafer thin.
�� Wind speeds influence ice formation. Light winds speed up the formation. Strong winds force water from beneath the ice and can decay the edges of the ice.
�� Air temperature influences the quality of ice. A rapid large drop in air temperature may actually make the ice brittle and it may not be safe for more than twenty four hours after this drastic temperature change. Above freezing temperatures for six or more hours in a twenty four hour period can weaken the ice. Staying above freezing for 24 hours or more will result in loss of ice strength to the point where the conditions may no longer be safe. Stay off the ice if this has occurred.
�� Slush is a danger sign. It indicates that ice is no longer freezing from the bottom and indicates weak or deteriorated ice.
�� Loud cracks and booms coming from the ice. On river ice this may indicate the ice is about to break up or move. One large lakes (several acres) this may only indicate harmless thermal expansion and contraction

[RLW]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

I know the answer to my question is "it all depends".
But, how thick should the ice be to "safely" ride a single sled across it?
Thanks

That all depends on how fast your going. If you go slow you need lots of ice and just the opposite if you go real fast.

[dpg]

Snow mobile through the woods and you won't fall through anything, just watch out for trees.

[Webbsatwinni]

Has anyone drilled holes to check thickness on different parts of the lake?

[Lakegeezer]

Originally Posted by Webbsatwinni

Has anyone drilled holes to check thickness on different parts of the lake?

Moultonboro bay and up through Greens Basin has over 8". There are quite a few bob-houses and trucks have been seen. The ice has been safe there for over three weeks.

[fatlazyless]

If anyone is looking for open water, my neighbor's circulator has been running straight out since November and has created about 40 yards round opening in the ice. Betcha it attracts sno-mobile skimmers as they speed around the point as it usually does. It also attracts ducks, and sometimes the ducks get a big surprise from a skimmer blasting through.

[bilproject]

Les, any info on ice thickness between Brown's and Bear. Seen any activity from the neck, Browns or Y to Bear Island???

[fatlazyless]

Hi - I haven't drilled any holes in the ice myself, but I could do that later on today and get back.

On Friday, there were three ice fishers all set up 50-100 yards offshore about 200-yards north of the Cattle Landing town dock.

Also, it looks like the smashed up ice left in place in the South Bear Isl narrows from when that jonboat-airboat plowed through refroze as rough ice. Some snow cover would be helpfull.

Have not been down to Brown's ramp lately?

[Mink Islander]

I'll be coming out Sunday for my first hike out to Mink and will be cutting holes as I go. Will report back Sunday night. I'm expecting 7 to 9 inches, but we'll see. The narrows between Bear and the mainland are always the most unpredictable. Important to stay clear of the mainland through there since as FLL notes, due to ice-eater activity.

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by bilproject

Les, any info on ice thickness between Brown's and Bear. Seen any activity from the neck, Browns or Y to Bear Island???

There is a new webcam looking from Bear to Browns.

Live video http://65.175.131.113:93

Singler image, updates on refresh http://65.175.131.113:93/Jpeg/CamImg.jpg

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by dpg

Snow mobile through the woods and you won't fall through anything, just watch out for trees.

Thanks and "Ditto". I lost a classmate to drowning after falling through the ice. She was only skating.

[Mink Islander]

So no one should go on the ice ever?

The entire point of this thread is to help share information about the state of the ice on Winnipesaukee. I think our collective shared knowledge improves the safety on the lake. An example of this forum at its very best IMO.

The good news/bad news is that there's not much snow cover on the lake right now which is good for ice growth and also will keep most sleds off the ice for now. Even fan-cooled sleds will overheat their runners in these conditions. Current conditions and the weather outlook look very favorable for a safe Fishing Derby.

[hilltopper]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

Current conditions and the weather outlook look very favorable for a safe Fishing Derby.

I hope you're right, but predicted daytime highs and nightime lows from the 14th to the 25th time period are not very good ice-building temperatures. Be careful everyone, especially in areas that have only been locked in for less than a week.

[Mink Islander]

Weather.com shows lows of 4 and 6 degrees in Meredith the next two days and then warming trends but only to the point where we have nightime lows in the mid-teens and daytime highs just below freezing. Using the nifty ice growth chart in the Ice-in thread, it would seem like we will still be adding maybe 1/3 to a 1/2 inch per day to the ice (guestimating using rough average temps) and assuming several inches of ice pack currently. Nominal snowpack is a good thing right now. That translates to roughly 5 to 7 inches of additional ice by the 29th given my assumptions above. I'd expect a foot or a little more of ice in front of my place on the North side of Mink by then. Roughly the same as last year.

Now if the weather patterns show a much warmer trend towards the end of the month, all bets are off.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by Mink Islander

So no one should go on the ice ever?

The entire point of this thread is to help share information about the state of the ice on Winnipesaukee. I think our collective shared knowledge improves the safety on the lake. An example of this forum at its very best IMO.

The good news/bad news is that there's not much snow cover on the lake right now which is good for ice growth and also will keep most sleds off the ice for now. Even fan-cooled sleds will overheat their runners in these conditions. Current conditions and the weather outlook look very favorable for a safe Fishing Derby.

I had just been reading that some were saying it was unsafe and to be careful and it made me afraid. That and the accident that killed the three year and her mother and grandfather over in Vermont. Too timid here. Will toughen up a bit or button up my mouth!! Please overlook my response.

[RLW]

Let the picture do the talking.

[Mink Islander]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

I had just been reading that some were saying it was unsafe and to be careful and it made me afraid. That and the accident that killed the three year and her mother and grandfather over in Vermont. Too timid here. Will toughen up a bit or button up my mouth!! Please overlook my response.

You are right to be concerned about ice safety -- too many preventable mishaps every year. I've gone through the ice on a snowmobile -- at night, no less (quite a long time ago returning to shore but where spring conditions had taken a toll on the ice near a marina. I was probably just 10 feet too close to the open water but yet well onto a highly trafficked area. Point being that conditions -- even in familiar areas -- can change, and quickly). It definitely changes one's perspective.


I don't know the details about the Vermont accident. Sounded like a large group of sleds travelling together -- a lot of weight on the new ice if you're close together and going slow. Given the report about how the ice thickness changed dramatically in a short distance, it sounded like parts of where they were riding had been open water only a day or two earlier. This time of year, even a single week of cold weather makes a huge difference in ice thickness.

[bilproject]

Thanks Les, Mink Islander and Bear Islander. I like to hear from someone who's been on the ice in an area I'm going to cross. Thirty years ago I would go as soon as anyone was out there. Call me chicken but if the thought of falling in enters my mind at all I'll be on the warm couch instead of crossing to Bear. Son was thinking about spending the weekend at the house on Bear.
Speaking of your live web cams BI, did you see the 4 ice boats between Bear and Black Cat on Monday about 300PM? They were racing back and forth between 3 mile and 6 mile on the back side of Bear. On Black Cat time lapse it only took them 2 frames to travel the distance. Pretty Cool!

[Webbsatwinni]

Every year at this time I wonder who will be the first person to brave it out to the broads. We sit at home waiting to see activity on the web cams (thanks to all who operate them, with out the I would lose my mind waiting) or forum reports before we make the trip over to the island, but I always wonder who decides to go first and what leads them to believe its OK.

Last year we went up snowmobiling before the ice was ready and talked to a few people ice fishing and asked how they knew how far they could go and the answers varied from, "we drill holes" to "when you go in, you have gone to far".

So, as we sit and watch the ice grow, use charts to guess how it is growing, etc, who will be the first and will they report back?

Volunteers?

[NoBozo]

Check out "Ice Reports Here" on The "New England Ice Yacht Association" website. They have reports from all over New England, with people assigned to check the ice in their location and are pretty meticulous about the reports. NB

http://www.neiya.us/

[Webbsatwinni]

Thanks NoBozo, Great site for updates

Here is what they posted:

Re: Winni Broads

As posted by Randy Rice on Yahoo Iceboating 1/11/10:
-----------------------------------------

There is still large open water off the point of Steamboat Island at
one end of the Broads. Very large and only good for small soft water
sail boats! We sailed as far as the little bridge at Steamboat
Island and viewed the open water. One other hole was found on our
return trip from a wonderful bar-b-Q 5 of us had on a lee cove of
Five Mile Island. The hole is between Hull Island and 3 Mile Island
and is now marked with 5 large hemlock bows. The hole was sizable
and due to an inverted pressure ridge that lost the portion of ice
that inverted. The inverted ridge likely slipped away under the
adjacent ice as it surfaced leaving a small hole and still larger wet
area that was 2-3 feet deep. Very scary for the sailor that
happened upon it and so lucky not to have been physically injured or
damaged his boat. A reminder to all of us never to sail alone and
keep aware of everyone when sailing with a a group. Many boats still
set up at Levitts beach in Center Harbor as the weekly forecast is
clear for now. later rr

--- In IceReports@yahoogroups.com, dkretchmer@... wrote:
>
> Looked like the Broads were frozen as far as the eye could see from Ellacoya
State Park this morning but it has NOT been checked. Minimal snow. Surface
would be good to great if the thickness is there. Working this week so won't
have time to check...anyone else have time?


I checked the launch area At Ellacoya Park yesterday Sun at sunset...on the way
home from Randy R's.. In my opinion there were some great perfect smooth areas
yo the north and some bumpy to bouncy areas to the east and south
east..depending on if the boat had a springer or not..Ice was 6" thick 200 ft
off the launch.and plate was not moving. shorline was spary and reefing...
Gangway may be needed for larger boats..Randy Rice should make his way down
there today from Levitts Beach...Look for his report soon...

[Lucky1]

I read two threads on ice conditions here at the forum. I noted that carry ice picks and only go with another person and have 50 feet of rope sounded like good ideas. Also drilling holes, etc. One thing that might be helpful was to think of using jumper cables from your vehicle if you did not have rope. That was on the video link that some may not open. I guess it would depend on how near to your vehicle you are.

It is fun to look out and see activity. In winter I have a lot of ice fishing houses in front of my home. Beyond them one sees the PURPLE mountains majesty!! This is the time of year that I see why they wrote that in the song. BEAUTIFUL!!!!

Safe ice excursions to all in 2010!

[NoBozo]

Can't say how it is when you GO IN with a Sled. I CAN say how it is when you go in with an Iceboat.

There is a little thing I haven't seen on this Forum that I feel inclined to mention. It's a condition we used to call SHELL ICE. Probably occurs in Elderly (Older) Ice.. the Ice Plates want to Expand...there is no place for the ice to go except UP..OR DOWN. SO it will POP UP.. and you have a "Pressure Ridge". If it POPS Down..it will dive below the lake water level and water will "well up" over the ice and form a small pond...which will freeze at night into light ice crystals which will support NOTHING.

If you drive or sail into this the next day you will probably not go swimming but you WILL get WET. With a wooden Iceboat the Shell Ice will act like razor blades and Chew Up your boat.

In either case you will "Likely" not be in danger of going swimming..BUT you would rather not have the experience. NB

PS: Comments from an Old Coot who has been there..and would like to pass on my experiences.

[NoBozo]

Not having the pleasure of Going In on a Sled I cant' comment except to speculate that your Sled is going to the bottom.

With an Iceboat you will "Land The Boat" ...like landing an airplane..in the water. The Iceboat will fall over on it's side and remain afloat..It's WOOD. The mast will likely tip over and land on "good" ice at the side of the hole you just made. Iceboaters wear the same "suits' as Snow Machine drivers do.

The shock of the cold water will be brief. Then the swimming Ice Boater can "Walk Over" the SAIL to good ice and recover. In my swimming experience, I got out of the water on my own, friends arrived shortly, and then we had to figure out HOW to get the Iceboat out of the water. SO: I WENT BACK in the water to disconnect the wire rigging from the mast to make recovery much easier. An hour later I was sailing again..albeit in a dry snowmobile suit loaned by a friend. NB

[RLW]

Here is another ice thickness report. It is entitled US Army Corps. Ice thickness and Strength for Various Loading conditions. Click here if interested.

[ishoot308]

Thought I would share the following ice info for those wanting to venture out on the ice...

I Put the bob house out just in front of Locke's island facing the Glendale town docks today. A solid 9" of ice everywhere in the cove. There is no snow whatsoever so walking is slow and snowmobiles will just either over heat or burn up their hyfax runners.

A few bob houses were out in front of Belknap Point and many people were pulling houses well out beyond the Point heading towards the broads. I personally would have felt very uncomfortable going much past Locke's as you could clearly see where the new ice recently formed against the older cove ice, but there were many people venturing out well beyond that on snowmobiles and ATV's many of which were pulling bob houses out in that direction.

Lot's of houses and activity on the Southwest side of Varney point as well.

ATV's were everywhere and the ice boats put on a heck of a show out in the broads.

Have fun and be safe!

Dan

[Dock and Barge]

2 inchs of ice 100 feet off Parker island heading to Rattlesnake with much melting today.