Water filters?

The Eagle · 01-12-2005, 07:50 AM

Hi Guys and Gals,
I haven't been posting, in a long time, but I am always here. I've just been "quiet". Now I have a question for everyone.
I get "Sand" in my water lines, lots of it,(I live in Suissevale) which clogs the filters in my washing machine, faucets, and showers. I have been looking for some sort of "filtering system" that filters out sand. I can find a lot of them that filter out "chemicals", but not one that will filter out sand. I want to install a filter before it goes into my home plumbing. Has anyone found a filter that will do that? Any suggestions, or recomendations would be greatly appreciated.
I hope everyone is having a good winter (although I don't know how you could do that, without being able to go boating, and swimming,..but..). Also, don't forget the "Great New England Boat Show", in Boston is only about one month away! Have a great, and safe winter!
Your friend,
"The Eagle"

SIKSUKR · 01-12-2005, 09:57 AM

Great to hear from the Eagle again.I always had a very basic water filter hooked up to my dug well that filtered out occasional sand and large matter.It looked just like most of the filters on the market and used the cheapest(pretty coarse) cartridges I could find at any home center.Do you have any filter in line now?Try looking at the ones at Home Depot and read the filter packaging for what it will filter.The ones for chemicals are much more expensive because of the materials they are made of.The basic filter should work fine for your situation.Good Luck and welcome back Eagle. SS

Bill25 · 01-12-2005, 11:51 AM

I have a filter on the well output be still have what looks like sand in the hot water side. The cold water side is clear. It clogs the shower head, faucets and hot water washer inlet valve. One plumber told me that it's the heater coil oxidating and that the heater coil will fail in time!! I'm still looking for an answer.

The Eagle · 01-12-2005, 12:42 PM

Hi Bill,
It's funny you mention the "Hot" side only, because that's where our problem is also. The cold side is crystal clear, and very little sand in the washing machine inlet for cold. The "Hot Water" side is what really fills with sand. When my wife complained it took half an hour to fill the washing machine, I took the hoses off, and the hot side was jam packed with sand. I have also removed my shower heads and found they too were clogged with sand. I am going to call to have my furnace cleaned and I will have them take an extra close look at the tankless hot water system. Thanks for the clue!
To answer the other post,(the one before your's. I forgot to see who wrote it before I started typing this reply.) No, we do not currently have any filter on the water, other than the one for the ice maker.
Thanks again!
"The Eagle"

camp guy · 01-12-2005, 12:59 PM

I'm not a plumber, but I do not think it is possible to get 'sand' only on the hot side, unless this residue is coming from within the system and on the hot side pipes. If the cold is clear, then my logic says that it is coming into the house clear, and probably the problem is in the hot water heater or hot water lines. Can you flush the hot water heater tank by running cold water in and letting it drain out the drain valve, hopefully removing any residue. I guess a filter on the "out" pipe of the heater would be an answer. Good Luck.

lakershaker · 01-12-2005, 02:12 PM

We are putting in a whole house filter system since we need to draw from the lake directly. The first stage of the filter system is a point of entry filter that does a great job of filtering sediment. We have not bought it yet, but have been getting some good recommendations on it. See link here below for a description of the Judo Sediment Filters. The only problem I can see is the price (>$1,000 for self cleaning, 1/3 that for manual cleaning), but it definitely does the job.

http://www.watertiger.net/judo/judo_index.html

HUH · 01-12-2005, 02:36 PM

Master plumber in Ma & NH
Your water heater is filled with cold water from your supply so it is most likely already filtered ..Hard water will build up on the dip tube and heating elements in your water heater and start scaling off ..it will look similar to sand ..Put a garden hose on the bottom of your water heater and open the valve , this will flush it out ..you may have to do this a few times a year depending on the quality of the water ..Make sure the water heater is turned off before you do this .. Any cartridge type water filter out there will filter out sand ..

Just Sold · 01-12-2005, 02:43 PM

Question: How old is your water heater? If it is over 10 years old then it could be close to the end of its usefull life from what various plumbers have told me. Plus if it is about 10+ years old it could have quite a bit of sediment built up inside.

I agree with Camp Guy comments and think you should flush the water heater. Make sure you turn the water heater off while doing this to prevent any potential damge to electric or gas components in the water heaters. If there is a lot of sediment it could take a while to clear out. I have seen this process shorten the life of an older water heater so be careful. I flush my propane fired water heater once a year and it is more efficent and should last longer if done from new.

If you have a tankless water heater, inside a furnace, then the tankless coil may be failing and you are getting corrosion as sediment but I think that is less likely. Tankless water heaters usually clog with heavy corrosion inside the coils reducing the temperature and amount of hot water you get. How quickly the clogging of the coils occurs will depend on the amount of minerals, iron and manganese for example, you have in your water. My source of information on this is from plumbers and home inspectors I have worked with over the years. No, I am not a plumber either.

Good luck.

SIKSUKR · 01-12-2005, 03:33 PM

Eagle,You have narrowed it down with the hot water only discovery.Very unlikely that "sand" is coming into into your water supply with this scenario.I would definately inspect your hot water device.As far as tankless heaters go,is yours a stand alone tankless or is it part of your furnace?If the latter,mine failed two years ago but I did not have the sediment issue you have.My boiler makes hot water for the hydronic baseboard(forced hot water).My coil for the domestic hot water is immersed in the boiler water.I figured out mine failed when my boiler water pressure kept getting too high and was being released through the relief valve overflow.The reason is the domestic water was leaking into the boiler water through a hole in the coil because the domestic water pressure was much higher(50 lbs) than the boiler needs(15 lbs) and the relief valve would open at about 25 lbs.Changing the coil was very simple and inexpensive to do myself.I think about $50-70.It might be worth changing the coil if this is your type of system. SS

HUH · 01-12-2005, 03:42 PM

If you have a tankless in the boiler like siksukr and it go's get rid of it ..Add an external or super store (brand name) storage heater
Way more efficient,10 times the surface area to transfer heat and well insulated, around $600

Bill25 · 01-13-2005, 10:06 AM

Hi Eagle,

Sounds like we have the exact same problem, mine is tankless too! I thought as one of the other post said that it might be sand in the pipes left from when the house was built but this has been going on for years and isn't getting better. So I think I've rule that out. I also was going to flush the system but never get around to it and that would only be a temporary solution. I think HUH, Master Plumber, has it right it's caused by hard water and it scaling off. I've had my water tested a number of times and it's a little on the hard side so maybe that's it. I thought of putting a filter on the output of the hot water coil but I don't know if the filter would take the heat and coil will in time clog up and fail. I now thinking the answer is to treat the water to reduce the hardness.

Bill

HUH · 01-13-2005, 10:12 AM

Hot water is the same water that comes in your house cold ... Treat or filter the main water supply coming into your house and you will eliminate this problem ..Also the supply going to your boiler must (by law ) have a backflow preventer in line ..and can easily be clogged by sediment or scale ..
If anyone needs help with this email me ..

SIKSUKR · 01-13-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HUH

If you have a tankless in the boiler like siksukr and it go's get rid of it ..Add an external or super store (brand name) storage heater
Way more efficient,10 times the surface area to transfer heat and well insulated, around $600

Eagle,You could do as huh suggests for $600 or weigh spending under $100 for a coil that will probably last for another 10 years.The energy savings in efficiency couldn't offset the cost in 30 years even if the storage tank could last that long.I don't know what your demand needs are or if your supply of hot water was adequate before,but I never run out of hot water so the 10x's surface area is meaningless to me. Just my opinion with my situation.Good luck.

smoke eater · 01-13-2005, 01:33 PM

Thought I would just throw this out there but is everyone sure that the cold water supply to their hot water heaters etc. is after and not before whatever filtration system they have in place. I have run into this problem with irrigation systems I service because of sand in the valves. The systems have been fed prior to the filter systems. Hope it helps.

HUH · 01-13-2005, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Eagle,You could do as huh suggests for $600 or weigh spending under $100 for a coil that will probably last for another 10 years.The energy savings in efficiency couldn't offset the cost in 30 years even if the storage tank could last that long.I don't know what your demand needs are or if your supply of hot water was adequate before,but I never run out of hot water so the 10x's surface area is meaningless to me. Just my opinion with my situation.Good luck.

Obviously you have no idea what a storage heater does or how it works ..
With your tankless, when you need hot water your boiler fires and runs till your done with your shower or whatever and the aquastat stops calling..You would recover the difference in cost between a tankless and a super store in less than a year and use a lot less fuel .. Read up on them since you dont know !

Bill good point which I tried to make earlier ..your water filter should be the first thing after your main shutoff valve ..Filters save the life of all your mechanicals, circ pumps, backflow preventers, water heaters, boilers, expansion tanks, air scoop, zone valves etc ..

dpg · 01-14-2005, 06:32 AM

I'm not a plumber but Huh's correct. You (or anybody) would have major problems with sand constantly getting into your system, this is not likely. Definitely sounds like sediment/scaling. My family also owns in Suissevale, my first thought was well or association supplied water? I must assume a well. If your on Suissevales water hook up (not likely) be sure you do not have a hole in (their) system somewhere - not likely though.

01-12-2005, 07:50 AM	#1
The Eagle Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Burlington MA & Moultonboro NH Posts: 218 Thanks: 17 Thanked 141 Times in 33 Posts	Water filters? Hi Guys and Gals, I haven't been posting, in a long time, but I am always here. I've just been "quiet". Now I have a question for everyone. I get "Sand" in my water lines, lots of it,(I live in Suissevale) which clogs the filters in my washing machine, faucets, and showers. I have been looking for some sort of "filtering system" that filters out sand. I can find a lot of them that filter out "chemicals", but not one that will filter out sand. I want to install a filter before it goes into my home plumbing. Has anyone found a filter that will do that? Any suggestions, or recomendations would be greatly appreciated. I hope everyone is having a good winter (although I don't know how you could do that, without being able to go boating, and swimming,..but..). Also, don't forget the "Great New England Boat Show", in Boston is only about one month away! Have a great, and safe winter! Your friend, "The Eagle"

01-12-2005, 09:57 AM	#2
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Great to hear from the Eagle again.I always had a very basic water filter hooked up to my dug well that filtered out occasional sand and large matter.It looked just like most of the filters on the market and used the cheapest(pretty coarse) cartridges I could find at any home center.Do you have any filter in line now?Try looking at the ones at Home Depot and read the filter packaging for what it will filter.The ones for chemicals are much more expensive because of the materials they are made of.The basic filter should work fine for your situation.Good Luck and welcome back Eagle. SS __________________ SIKSUKR

01-12-2005, 12:42 PM	#4
The Eagle Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Burlington MA & Moultonboro NH Posts: 218 Thanks: 17 Thanked 141 Times in 33 Posts	Interesting statement, Bill Hi Bill, It's funny you mention the "Hot" side only, because that's where our problem is also. The cold side is crystal clear, and very little sand in the washing machine inlet for cold. The "Hot Water" side is what really fills with sand. When my wife complained it took half an hour to fill the washing machine, I took the hoses off, and the hot side was jam packed with sand. I have also removed my shower heads and found they too were clogged with sand. I am going to call to have my furnace cleaned and I will have them take an extra close look at the tankless hot water system. Thanks for the clue! To answer the other post,(the one before your's. I forgot to see who wrote it before I started typing this reply.) No, we do not currently have any filter on the water, other than the one for the ice maker. Thanks again! "The Eagle"

01-12-2005, 12:59 PM	#5
camp guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro Posts: 1,181 Thanks: 299 Thanked 525 Times in 293 Posts	Sand in water I'm not a plumber, but I do not think it is possible to get 'sand' only on the hot side, unless this residue is coming from within the system and on the hot side pipes. If the cold is clear, then my logic says that it is coming into the house clear, and probably the problem is in the hot water heater or hot water lines. Can you flush the hot water heater tank by running cold water in and letting it drain out the drain valve, hopefully removing any residue. I guess a filter on the "out" pipe of the heater would be an answer. Good Luck.

01-12-2005, 02:12 PM	#6
lakershaker Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Rattlesnake Isl. - Simsbury, CT Posts: 274 Thanks: 91 Thanked 46 Times in 28 Posts	Point of Entry Water Filter We are putting in a whole house filter system since we need to draw from the lake directly. The first stage of the filter system is a point of entry filter that does a great job of filtering sediment. We have not bought it yet, but have been getting some good recommendations on it. See link here below for a description of the Judo Sediment Filters. The only problem I can see is the price (>$1,000 for self cleaning, 1/3 that for manual cleaning), but it definitely does the job. http://www.watertiger.net/judo/judo_index.html

01-12-2005, 11:51 AM	#3
Bill25 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a filter on the well output be still have what looks like sand in the hot water side. The cold water side is clear. It clogs the shower head, faucets and hot water washer inlet valve. One plumber told me that it's the heater coil oxidating and that the heater coil will fail in time!! I'm still looking for an answer.

01-12-2005, 02:36 PM	#7
HUH Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 230 Thanks: 21 Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts	Plumber Master plumber in Ma & NH Your water heater is filled with cold water from your supply so it is most likely already filtered ..Hard water will build up on the dip tube and heating elements in your water heater and start scaling off ..it will look similar to sand ..Put a garden hose on the bottom of your water heater and open the valve , this will flush it out ..you may have to do this a few times a year depending on the quality of the water ..Make sure the water heater is turned off before you do this .. Any cartridge type water filter out there will filter out sand ..

01-12-2005, 02:43 PM	#8
Just Sold Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Suncook, NH, but at The Lake at Heart Posts: 2,615 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 434 Times in 210 Posts	Question: How old is your water heater? If it is over 10 years old then it could be close to the end of its usefull life from what various plumbers have told me. Plus if it is about 10+ years old it could have quite a bit of sediment built up inside. I agree with Camp Guy comments and think you should flush the water heater. Make sure you turn the water heater off while doing this to prevent any potential damge to electric or gas components in the water heaters. If there is a lot of sediment it could take a while to clear out. I have seen this process shorten the life of an older water heater so be careful. I flush my propane fired water heater once a year and it is more efficent and should last longer if done from new. If you have a tankless water heater, inside a furnace, then the tankless coil may be failing and you are getting corrosion as sediment but I think that is less likely. Tankless water heaters usually clog with heavy corrosion inside the coils reducing the temperature and amount of hot water you get. How quickly the clogging of the coils occurs will depend on the amount of minerals, iron and manganese for example, you have in your water. My source of information on this is from plumbers and home inspectors I have worked with over the years. No, I am not a plumber either. Good luck. __________________ Just Sold At the lake the stress of daily life just melts away. Pro Re Nata

01-12-2005, 03:33 PM	#9
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Eagle,You have narrowed it down with the hot water only discovery.Very unlikely that "sand" is coming into into your water supply with this scenario.I would definately inspect your hot water device.As far as tankless heaters go,is yours a stand alone tankless or is it part of your furnace?If the latter,mine failed two years ago but I did not have the sediment issue you have.My boiler makes hot water for the hydronic baseboard(forced hot water).My coil for the domestic hot water is immersed in the boiler water.I figured out mine failed when my boiler water pressure kept getting too high and was being released through the relief valve overflow.The reason is the domestic water was leaking into the boiler water through a hole in the coil because the domestic water pressure was much higher(50 lbs) than the boiler needs(15 lbs) and the relief valve would open at about 25 lbs.Changing the coil was very simple and inexpensive to do myself.I think about $50-70.It might be worth changing the coil if this is your type of system. SS __________________ SIKSUKR

01-12-2005, 03:42 PM	#10
HUH Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 230 Thanks: 21 Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts	Tankless If you have a tankless in the boiler like siksukr and it go's get rid of it ..Add an external or super store (brand name) storage heater Way more efficient,10 times the surface area to transfer heat and well insulated, around $600 Last edited by HUH; 01-13-2005 at 10:25 AM.

01-13-2005, 10:06 AM	#11
Bill25 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Eagle, Sounds like we have the exact same problem, mine is tankless too! I thought as one of the other post said that it might be sand in the pipes left from when the house was built but this has been going on for years and isn't getting better. So I think I've rule that out. I also was going to flush the system but never get around to it and that would only be a temporary solution. I think HUH, Master Plumber, has it right it's caused by hard water and it scaling off. I've had my water tested a number of times and it's a little on the hard side so maybe that's it. I thought of putting a filter on the output of the hot water coil but I don't know if the filter would take the heat and coil will in time clog up and fail. I now thinking the answer is to treat the water to reduce the hardness. Bill

01-13-2005, 10:12 AM	#12
HUH Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 230 Thanks: 21 Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts	Hot water Hot water is the same water that comes in your house cold ... Treat or filter the main water supply coming into your house and you will eliminate this problem ..Also the supply going to your boiler must (by law ) have a backflow preventer in line ..and can easily be clogged by sediment or scale .. If anyone needs help with this email me ..

01-13-2005, 01:33 PM	#14
smoke eater Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Billerica & Moultonboro Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	sand in water Thought I would just throw this out there but is everyone sure that the cold water supply to their hot water heaters etc. is after and not before whatever filtration system they have in place. I have run into this problem with irrigation systems I service because of sand in the valves. The systems have been fed prior to the filter systems. Hope it helps.

01-14-2005, 06:32 AM	#16
dpg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 2,591 Thanks: 150 Thanked 229 Times in 166 Posts	I'm not a plumber but Huh's correct. You (or anybody) would have major problems with sand constantly getting into your system, this is not likely. Definitely sounds like sediment/scaling. My family also owns in Suissevale, my first thought was well or association supplied water? I must assume a well. If your on Suissevales water hook up (not likely) be sure you do not have a hole in (their) system somewhere - not likely though.