Skydive Laconia?

[trfour]

Dear Tom, most of us are still very interested in seeing Skydive Laconia through it's fruition and to beyond be very successful.
All Entrepreneur's' should take a look in what you have put into the process... Facts, knowledge and The Great Spirit!
Fortitude, patience and resolve!

You have shown us all, and I for one believe that you are also looking out for our best interests!

Rock on, my friend!



Terry
_____________________

[RI Swamp Yankee]

This thread is a bit old but I wonder if there is anything new.

[TheNoonans]

Hi RI Swamp Yankee,

We're still here.....lol.

Basically, as we understand it, the FAA rep that came from Washington issued a report that, as we expected, found no reason why skydiving could not exist on the Laconia airport. The only thing left that could be debated on a local level was whether or not our presence would obstruct the IFR Glide Slope. I guess it's one of those "many, many concerns" that were implied but not stated back in Janaury of 2009......when this thread was first created. Anyways, based on our extensive research, we could find nothing that showed we posed any issues to the glide slope (more info on that back up the thread). And that the ILS approach was only critical when the ceiling was 800ft or lower and planes were flying in IFR conditions. The problem (for the otherside) is that we only skydive in VFR conditions, so that issue couldn't be used against us. Despite that being the only factual piece of information available about glide slopes, somewthere on their side of the table, someone is frantically looking for anything they can find to prove otherwise. If the otherside has shown anything, it is the power of a beauracracy to delay the just (us?). We are simply waiting for whatever info they believe is out there.......

So that's where we are at right now.

Not to worry though, as I said before, Mary and I are not going anywhere, and we have legal precendence on our side. There will either be skydiving on the airport in the near future or a forfeiture of their federal funding. I'd prefer they keep the funding and let us skydive, we'll see how they decide to handle it.

The dropzone I am at while we are forced to wait, had 500 tandem students (with additional non jumping guests) come out over the last seven days to skydive. Most drove 1-2 hours to get here. Thats about 750 people patronizing the local restaurants, bars, hotels and gas stations in the LAST WEEK. We expect another 1000 people this week. The 35 employees and contractors (that's 35 jobs) that I work with at our dropzone were all thrilled to have them. Skydiving based tourists and jobs should be at the Laconia Airport. Currently they are not...........

What cracks me up the most is that when I am not skydiving, I fly right seat in the Twin Otter and watch our plane share the same airspace with jets, both commercial Boeings and those little ones that the LAA is so afraid we'll scare away......all in harmony. Oh, and our runway is 13 miles from one of the largest international airports on the east coast. But hey, maybe jet pilots are simply trained better down here? (I'm kidding of course........we must actually be endangering them for our own financial gain, right? )

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom

[Joby]

Hi Folks, I have followed this thread and am wondering, anything new?

[SPT13]

Just curious as well if anything is new on this subject

[TheNoonans]

Greetings to all,

Just wanted to follow up with an update. Please forgive my lack of activity here as of late, Mary and I, like many of you, are simply playing the waiting game. The FAA came up from Washington, DC last year and we all got together with the LAA and their lawyer. The FAA (federal, not local) stated, as we expected, that there wasn't any issue with skydiving on the airport. Local FAA admin still wanted to review our landing area proposal as they felt, without any factual evidence to support it, that our original landing area was too close to the ILS equipment and that our parachutes would affect it's operation. Rather than argue the fact, we simply submitted a new landing area proposal away from the ILS equipment. That was back in September 2010.......

Still waiting........

The good news is, we are still fully committed to bringing skydiving to the airport and have not been swayed an inch by all the red tape/delay tactics thrown at us. The majority voice continues to speak: The community believes the airport belongs to them, not a handful of people and pilots. Jobs and economic stimulus to the area. That's what we bring to the table.

In the interum, we continue to skydive over Mount Everest and continue to skydive locally in the US beside Leer jets, Life Flight helicopters, and air traffic ten times that of LCI. Landing on airports the same size or smaller. And guess what, not a single pilot was ever scared by the parachutes, and not single skydiver hit an airplane.......

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight.

Tom

[Happy Gourmand]

I admire your tenacity and your patience as you wade through the muck of all the red tape.
Have you tried bribes? (just kidding!!)

[Jonas Pilot]

Does LAA stan for Local Airport Advisory?

[trfour]

the Laconia Airport Authority.

I hope this helps.

Terry
______________________________

[upthesaukee]

I believe it is Laconia Airport Authority.

[trfour]

The Noonans are welcome and my hope is that, they are included and find, that what they can bring us all will diminish some of the red tape that they have had to endure.
They offer an alternative and JOBS as well. Some may get rattled, who among us hasn't.
They will bring us photos that others haven't.
Terry
______________________

PS: Isn't this what PhotoPost is all about?

[TheNoonans]

Greetings to all,

I just returned from a skydiving trip and came across this article in the Citizen:

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...WS02/703249667

Apparently the Gilford Selectmen have voted not to endorse our proposal.

Mary and I find it curious for two reasons:

1) The current ADO review of the airfield is projected to be concluded in two weeks. Based on what has occurred within the FAA after that initial grossly erroneous report was published, it is our expectation that a fair, factual report will finally be issued that will find no reason for the landing area to be considered "objectionable". If the FAA finds no fault in our proposal, that is basically the last stall tactic that the LAA could throw in our way........

It is my guess that in an 11th hour strategy meeting behind closed doors, the idea came up to go the Selectmen and ask them to vote not to support us. I'm sure that request came with all sorts of horror stories of what skydiving was like 30 years ago. And the Selectmen voted to not support us.

This vote was done after we have had our proposal on the table for almost three years, so why now?

2) It was also made without any input from us the business owners. Why do you think that was? Perhaps the small group of people that don't want us there thought it would be easier to spread the fear if the Selectmen lacked the facts.

The point is this. Whether the Selectmen endorse us or not is not the issue. The issue is that they made a vote without any factual information. A vote that directly affects everyone of you in the community. We will bring jobs and $1,000,000 of economic stimulus to the area (and we can prove it). If I were a Selectman, even if I didn't like the idea and even if I was friends with the small group of residents of strong influence in the community that oppose us, I would still make sure I had every fact possible before voting on something that would affect my entire community. That did not occur. Does that concern anyone? It concerns me. Agreeing or disagreeing with our proposal is freedom of choice. They are elected officials, elected to vote their conscience to serve the community. I get that, and I respect that. But to vote on anything that will directly impact the financial future of the community without doing their due diligence is a questionable decision in my mind. What do you think?

selectmen@gilfordnh.org is their email address. I encourage you to write them. I'm not asking you to write them in support of us. We would be grateful if you did, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you, the community they are elected to serve, to ask of your Selectmen how they justify voting on something they know nothing about, without hearing all sides of the story. If it was done with us, what other votes are being made that way? That's the issue that should concern us all.

Below is the email I sent to the Selectmen today:

Selectmen,

My name is Tom Noonan. My wife and I are the proposed business operators of Skydive Laconia. We read with great interest in the Citizen that the board recently voted not to endorse skydiving at the airport.

I am writing to inquire if the Selectmen have any interest in learning more about our business proposal and modern day skydiving operations. Selectman Hayes was quoted in the article citing a concern about the Fire Department's training facility. Modern parachutes have accuracy and directional control similar to aircraft, and pose no reasonable threat to the training facility, this is a quantifiable and provable fact. Certain people at the airport would like to lead you to believe otherwise, but there are no facts available to them to support their claim. Selectman Hayes is also quoted as saying he saw "several problems" with our proposal. We would very much like to meet with Selectman Hayes and the entire board to discuss any concerns that they may have with our proposal. We would also like to ask why we were not contacted to address any of their perceived problems?

The truth is, for three years, my wife and I have followed every protocol and step to bring a legal and viable business to the airport. Our business will infuse about a dozen new jobs in the town and about a $1,000,000 of economic impact to local Inns, Restaurants, and businesses. Selectman Hayes stated that our presence would affect the current businesses at the airport. The truth is, the airport is currently almost barren of businesses based on the current economy and the way the LAA rules over the airport. There are only two businesses on the airport at the moment, both long standing FBOs with flight schools. Thanks to federal funding and the LAA, they have the airport to themselves and want to keep it that way. That is where 99% of the minimal opposition to our business is coming from. Despite their claims, neither will be adversely affected by our business model. They are simply making uneducated claims based on what skydiving was thirty years ago, not what it is today. Your airport is designed to serve the community as a whole, not just those two business owners.

We understand our proposal is a classic case of NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) and that a select few people in town with positions of influence do not want us there. They have used every stall tactic available and now, as it seems the FAA will mostlikely issue a ruling in two weeks stating all of the "safety concerns" of the LAA are unfounded, they have turned to you to attempt to block us. Why else would the Selectmen choose now as the time to make such a vote on this issue as it has been on the table with the LAA for almost three years now?

It's a shame really. Not that you voted to oppose our operation, but that you did it without seeking out all of the available data. We are experts in our industry, and I can assure you a number of things:

1) The Laconia Municipal Airport is an ideal location in terms of size and air traffic to support a skydiving operation.
2) The current air traffic will not leave for other locations. (John Marriott's pilot will still fly his private jet into LCI if we are there.)
3) Student pilots will not be adversely at risk. Student training programs across the country operate at airports with skydiving operations and train students to safely fly at airports with parachutes.
4) Our business will bring 2000+ people to the area from April 1 - Oct 31st each season.
5) Our business will bring a dozen new jobs to the area and train locals to work anywhere in the world off season.
6) Despite the vocal minority, the vast majority of the community actually wants us at the airport. Please visit www.winnipesaukee.com and look under the General Discussions forum for "Skydive Laconia". It has been viewed over 20,000 times and 90% or more of the responses are positive.
7) The LAA has used "big government" bureaucracy to stall our proposal as long as possible and have been allowed to get away with it by the local FAA.
8) We have offered repeatedly to do demonstration skydives into the airport for the LAA and the community to illustrate how minimally intrusive our presence will be on the airfield. The LAA has flatly denied our request each time because they know as soon as the community sees how safe and accurate our parachutes are, the fear mongering will not hold any water any longer. If we do demonstration jumps, the LAA will no longer be able to cite "safety concerns" when we show the community there are none.

It is with all of that in mind, I would like to ask the Selectmen to consider the following:

The airport is intended to serve the community as a whole, not just a select few in a position of power and authority. As Selectmen, it is your duty to ensure that any decision that affects the community as a whole and it's economy, is reviewed to the fullest extent before issuing a ruling. I ask you to consider three requests:

1) Allow my wife and I an audience to address your concerns and allow us the opportunity to provide factual information to support our proposal.
2) Provide us a Town Hall open forum to address the community at large.
3) Allow us to make demonstration skydives onto the airport to illustrate how non-intrusive we really are. Invite current business owners in the area and airport business owners to observe.

If you do all of that, and then reach a conclusion as to whether or not you believe that we will be a good fit in the community, you will be serving the community as a whole. We humbly request that you consider that course of action.

Best regards,

Tom Noonan
Skydive Laconia


Lastly back to the thread: The "FAA" never issued a report saying the landing area was unsafe. A local branch of the FAA, called the "ADO" issued a report citing the landing area as "objectionable". Every line item used to find it objectionable was seen by "Higher Ups" within the FAA as being completely erroneous. The ADO, for reasons beyond my understanding, has elected to keep a grossly erroneous document in the public realm without issuing a retraction. I will post both the report and detail all of it's inaccuracies shortly. Suffice to say, the FAA at a Federal level is aware of all of this and we plan to take it to the top of that chain when this is over.

[TheNoonans]

For the conspiracy theorists out there......lol

I forgot to add this to my last post:

Somewhere around the summer of 2009, Mary and I submitted our Skydive Laconia business plan and proposal. We provided it to the airport manager who in turn (appropriately) provided it to the members of the LAA board.

Now fast forward to March, 2011. It seems somehow the Gilford Selectmen received a copy of our business plan and proposal. Selectman Hayes is even quoted in the paper as saying he found "many safety concerns" with our proposal. He obviously had it and obviously read it.

Odd thing is, we never submitted our business plan or proposal to the town Selectmen. That means someone else provided it to them. Someone else had it put on the March 23rd agenda and put to a vote. All without our knowledge........interesting, huh?

The first I was even told about the vote was a week after it happened with the link to the article was sent to me.

So, let me ask all of the conspiracy theorists out there a question........

Why would someone in an appointed position of authority (the LAA) "allegedly" provide someone else's business plan to a town selectmen committee and put it on an agenda and have it put to a vote, WITHOUT informing the persons that 1) created the proposal, 2) can provide FACTUAL information about the proposal and 3) have their contact information on the proposal?

If you would like to email the Laconia Airport Authority yourselves and ask them who provided the Selectmen our business plan without our knowledge, their email is:

laa@metrocast.net

Who knows they will probably email you a copy of our proposal too.......lol

In the end we are not bothered the Selectmen received a copy. We would have given them one ourselves. But all this back room politics is getting a little out of hand.

We are actually pretty amazed that our little business plan had created such a back room political spin to it. It just goes to show how resistant to change and forward progress some people truly are.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom

[robmac]

Tom,I for one have skydived indoor and out of a plane. I think your plan brings a positive finacial impact to the region as well as a recreational one. I have just emailed the LAA requesting info from them reguarding weather a member had the item put on the agenda,if you pm me I will forward you a copy of the request. Rob

[flyguy]

So Tom says "Modern parachutes have accuracy and directional control similar to aircraft". Apparently the chutes of the Golden Knights aren't as good: “Golden Knight gets stuck on ballpark flagpole”, Army Times, August 2010.

As for the Selectmen, perhaps they were influenced by this very recent incident; One dead after skydivers collide in Kentucky"

And he says: "We will bring jobs and $1,000,000 of economic stimulus to the area (and we can prove it)."

Please do so. I'm sure we would all like to see the "proof"!

[Resident 2B]

Just my opinion: Small time thinking yields small brained results.

I was initially opposed to this Skydiving proposal. Then, I got motivated and did some research. My opposition was based on limited thinking. After digging into what is happening very safely throughout this country and planet, I have concluded this Skydiving proposal is a solid, well-thought out proposal. I also concluded that the FAA has significantly more knowledge about this than anyone on any local NH board. If it works for the FAA, it works for me.

I do not pay taxes to Gilford. I pay much more that my share to Laconia. However, this well-thought-out skydiving proposal has a regional impact, as it brings revenue into our area. It is time to look at what has been non-traditional revenue sources to support our local towns. Gone are the days of sticking uncontrolled, local expenses mainly on the backs of out-of-state property owners.

Who do these small thinkers on the Gilford Board of Selectmen think they are fooling? The Ames Farm thinking on their part is/was a mess, and now this! Please, if you are a Giilford Selectman, get the town out and fix the potholes and leave these issues to the proper federal authorities that are more able to think and make fair decisions. Your kangaroo court antics are getting tired! If you want a fair discussion, let both sides of the argument be heard. This is the USA, even in your little world of Gilford, NH.

For the record, I have no desire to jump out of a perfectly air capable aircraft and I have not met and do I know the Noonans. I just have had it with the small-brain thinking I see all too often around this area, an area where I have a significant, but dwindling, real estate investment.

R2B

[trfour]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

Just my opinion: Small time thinking yields small brained results.

I was initially opposed to this Skydiving proposal. Then, I got motivated and did some research. My opposition was based on limited thinking. After digging into what is happening very safely throughout this country and planet, I have concluded this Skydiving proposal is a solid, well-thought out proposal. I also concluded that the FAA has significantly more knowledge about this than anyone on any local NH board. If it works for the FAA, it works for me.

I do not pay taxes to Gilford. I pay much more that my share to Laconia. However, this well-thought-out skydiving proposal has a regional impact, as it brings revenue into our area. It is time to look at what has been non-traditional revenue sources to support our local towns. Gone are the days of sticking uncontrolled, local expenses mainly on the backs of out-of-state property owners.

Who do these small thinkers on the Gilford Board of Selectmen think they are fooling? The Ames Farm thinking on their part is/was a mess, and now this! Please, if you are a Giilford Selectman, get the town out and fix the potholes and leave these issues to the proper federal authorities that are more to think and make fair decisions. Your kangaroo court antics are getting tired! If you want a fair discussion, let both sides of the argument be heard. This is the USA, even in your little world of Gilford, NH.

For the record, I have no desire to jump out of a perfectly air capable aircraft and I have not met and do I know the Noonans. I just have had it with the small-brain thinking I see all too often around this area, an area where I have a significant, but dwindling, real estate investment.

R2B

WOW! Did you ever hit the nail on the head, over here!

Everyone knows that Laconia Airport is FAA funded and as such, under a very clearly defined obligation in the Noonan's favor. Now that the Gilford "Selectmen, and very few others" have gotten involved publicly, to continue to Stonewall and hoard the Airport to themselves, they may find that they were instrumentally responsible for losing FAA funding, and may have to find part time jobs to foot the entire bill... Does anyone know the state of Gilford's taxes today?

The Noonan's are Saints, in my view in that they have shown such patience and resolve in this matter.
I'm here for Ya,
Terry
_______________________________

[TheNoonans]

Hi Bill!

I missed not being able to exchange ideas with you on here, thank you for responding.

The Golden Knights in question were performing a stunt into a stadium. What they were doing was called CReW (Canopy Relative Work). It is a fringe discipline that has nothing to do with our skydiving proposal. Bringing a "2 Stack" into a Stadium is akin to an acrobatic pilot flying inverted 10 ft off the runway. When a stunt plane crashes, is that indicative of the safety of how you fly your plane? I don't think it is. Same situation with the example you posted. But thank you for sharing it, again you allow me the opportunity to share facts with the community.

Regarding Kentucky, there was an accident. Two skydivers collided in the air and one died. Same thing that happens when aircraft collide. Should we ban two planes over the airport at the same time? The facts, yes facts, are two airplanes collide with each other in flight about once every ten days in the US. If the Selectmen are that concerned with risk, then only one plane at a time should be allowed in the air over Laconia. And what about motorcycles? Should Gilford ban motorcycles and denounce bike week? People die doing all sorts of of things. The fact is skydiving collisions and fatalities are so less likely to occur than aircraft collisions and motorcycle collisions that they are not even in the same league based on volume.

I will be happy to prove my claims of economic stimulus, but not to you. You don't get that information Bill, sorry. Your not exactly unbiased here, ya know.....lol I will be happy to share that information with the Gilford Selectmen in a private or public forum. Perhaps you'll attend the meeting and share with the Selectmen the tremendous economic impact your aerial photo business has on the local community? I asked you awhile ago here, (and you never answered by the way), how many jobs does your aerial photography business create? How many people to you employ full time? I have answered just about every one of your off the wall fear inducing questions, how about doing me the courtesy of answering those two questions? What specifically does your business generate in the local community in terms of jobs and economic impact?

The day we open, that's eight new jobs. 3-6 months later, it will be up to 12 new jobs. Thats a fact.

As always, we wish you well Bill.

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight,

Tom

P.S.- I don't think I ever said that skydiving was "safe". You can get injured or killed doing just about anything these days. My point to any and all is this: Like Bill, you can look far and wide and find something on the internet that looks scary, and when taken out of context as a stand alone situation, it can look like whatever he wants to paint it as (like the Golden Knights example he just posted). But the reality of these scare tactic examples is simply this, these things have nothing to do with our proposal. We don't bring anything more or less risky to the airport than the flight schools or Bike Week on the highways. (Less so in terms of risk to be honest). And reading these scare tactic examples of Bill's keeps bringing me to the same conclusion about him and the minority opposition, and that is that they really have no idea of what we are proposing to do and what modern day skydiving really looks like. Every example that is posted to scare you just further illustrates the point. If you knew what I knew and let me share that information and facts with you, everyone would be on the same page and we would be happily co-existing with the two FBOs on the airfield.

[TheNoonans]

Hi Rob

Thank you for your support and for sending an email to the LAA. My email is the_noonans@yahoo.com.

It really is amazing the lengths some people will go to resist change, even positive change. No where else in the country has there been a mass migration of GA pilots because a skydiving operation opened up. If anything GA flights will increase as some skydivers actually own planes and fly them too.

Competent flight instructors can train student pilots to fly with parachutes on the airfield. Imagine graduating from one of these two flight schools and the instructor saying "Congratulations on earning your really expensive private pilots license! Now here are a list of the 290+ GA airports across the country that you can't fly to because we didn't train you how to fly to airports with skydiving operations on the airfield. Remember! Airports with skydiving operations are not safe because those parachutes will distract you!"

I mean seriously, Middleton, RI (Newport, RI really) has one of the most beautiful airports in New England, and they have a skydiving operation with TWO planes dropping skydivers. No collisions, no scared student pilots, they enjoy an integrated and peaceful co-existence. If you train to fly at the Laconia flight schools, better cross off that airport in your flight planning, there are parachutes there!"

The irony is that being able to flight train on an airfield with parachutes will make the students BETTER pilots. It's actually a selling point for both flight schools. But, ugh, its change and it's having to work with others instead of having the place to themselves.

But don't worry, fuel prices are forecasted to spike ridiculously high this summer and there is another recession just around the corner equal to the one we just had according to the economists. Less and less people will be able to afford something as expensive as a Private Pilots license and renting aircraft.

Those that oppose us don't believe that having a relatively recession proof skydiving business isn't going to keep money and jobs in your local economy during hard times.......but that two flight schools and an aerial photographer will certainly do that for sure though........maybe John Marriott will open a hotel on the lake and bring more jobs? After all that's their argument. If we are allowed to operate, Mr. Marriott won't fly in to his beach house. (Trust me, he still will) But how many of you benefit directly from Mr. Marriott's private jet landing at the airport. How many of you benefit from his jet's $10,000 fuel sale one of the FBOs is so fearful of losing?

Oh well, stay tuned to see what their next trick will be!

Blue skies to all and to all a good flight!

Tom

[robmac]

Resident2b has it correct,for some unknown reason a few people that unfortunately have some sort of clout in Gilford won't remove the blinders and allow an open minded and informed process to take place. I for one applaud the efforts of the Noonans. In this very difficult economic envirment anyone looking to invest wisely in local economy should be applauded and encouraged. I hope you continue and are very successful in your endevor. I do not know the Noonans or am I affiliated with Skydive Laconia,but do support and encourage their effort and look forward to the grand opening. Rob

[NoBozo]

You know what....I have no clew why there is so much "Official" opposition to this proposal. Let's just look at it from this point of view.

SO: Will a sky diver come crashing through the roof of my house nearby...? Will YOU DIE as a result of a mistake by a skydiver misjudging his landing point.

FACT: These Skydiving Tourists are NOT jumping out of airplanes on their own.

These Skydiving Tourists are jumping in Tandem with professional jumpers. What does THAT mean...? That means that the Tourist Jumper is Hugging a Professional jumper that is controlling the whole event. TWO jumpers on ONE parachute with a Professional controlling the jump. That's what Tourist Skydiving is about.

So the cynical part..if these people want to risk their lives..just like motorcycle riders do every time they ride.. why get in their way.....? They're not getting in Your Way..are they...?

For the Record: I am a Private Pilot AND a motorcycle rider with over 200,000 "touring" miles. NB

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by flyguy

So Tom says "Modern parachutes have accuracy and directional control similar to aircraft". Apparently the chutes of the Golden Knights aren't as good: “Golden Knight gets stuck on ballpark flagpole”, Army Times, August 2010.

As for the Selectmen, perhaps they were influenced by this very recent incident; One dead after skydivers collide in Kentucky"

And he says: "We will bring jobs and $1,000,000 of economic stimulus to the area (and we can prove it)."

Please do so. I'm sure we would all like to see the "proof"!

This is almost like the speed limit argument.
So you cite 2 skydiving accidents. How many successful skydives are there in a year? What exactly are the numbers?
I would be willing to bet that skydiving is safer statistically then driving in my car.

[rander7823]

Originally Posted by flyguy

So Tom says "Modern parachutes have accuracy and directional control similar to aircraft". Apparently the chutes of the Golden Knights aren't as good: “Golden Knight gets stuck on ballpark flagpole”, Army Times, August 2010.

As for the Selectmen, perhaps they were influenced by this very recent incident; One dead after skydivers collide in Kentucky"

And he says: "We will bring jobs and $1,000,000 of economic stimulus to the area (and we can prove it)."

Please do so. I'm sure we would all like to see the "proof"!

Lets see two incidents in the last 9 months.....I don't think I have gone a week in the last nine months without seeing a picture of at least one upside down crashed private plane on the news with the pilot dead or at least signifcantly injured.
I have no horse in this race...all these folks are trying to do is make a living