Double standard for Sail boats ?

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by jrc

By the way I cut off a small boat on my starboard side on Saturday. It was obviously my fault, I didn't look where I was going. Scared the hell out of me and most likely the small boat operator, luckily all I got was a dirty look. I've been extra vigilent since, it only takes one mistake.

JRC,

1st I applaud you for honestly admitting a mistake... Unfortunately we are all human, and these things happen. The good news is you looked at what went wrong in the situation, and are now being vigilant in trying to make sure it doesn't happen again.

2nd, Remember we are all human....


now on to sailboats... whether they are under power or not, folks you know what most of them don't handle well they are motoring... so I just follow the general rule that they have the right of way and give them as much room as I can. Technically I know sometimes I have the right of way... but you know what, it really is less stress to just give it to them and not worry about it.

[Pineedles]

I wont speak to the ROW but i saw a sailboat coming into center Harbor on Friday with Main and Jib sail hoisted and under power. Winds were from the WNW and direction of boat was NNW. Seems to me gas was being wasted as the sails weren't properly set to catch the 2-5 knots of wind that was available. More of a detriment, than a help it appeared.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

JRC,




now on to sailboats... whether they are under power or not, folks you know what most of them don't handle well they are motoring... so I just follow the general rule that they have the right of way and give them as much room as I can. Technically I know sometimes I have the right of way... but you know what, it really is less stress to just give it to them and not worry about it.

I think this can be an appreciated sentiment. The biggest and therefore fastest sailboats on the lake will only make between 7-9 kts under power. (Many can sail faster, but can't break hull speed onto a plane under power) If they are motor sailing, let them have a pass on right of way. I would also comment on the fact that they do handle and maneuver very well under power, so if they should need to give way, they are more than capable.

[NoBozo]

I've sailed since 1966 including Solo Offshore. One of the problems power boaters have with sailboats is.... Power Boaters don't know HOW to sail and as such they are often suprised and ticked off when a sailboat suddenly changes direction for no apparent (to them) reason.

Sailboats have to Tack every once in awhile to get the boat Upwind. Power boaters don't know what Upwind IS and when a sailboat tacks (cuts) in front of them they are...............sometimes upset.

The case in this thread..a sailboat with sails up...but may be under power. A sailboat under power IS a Power Boat..sails up or not. If the power boater had a rudimentary knowledge of how sailing works they would be able to see that the sailboat is moving right along but there is NO Wind...the sails are luffing (Flapping). Sailboats do NOT sail with NO Wind...so therefore the sailboat...if moving right along with no wind is under power. Power boat rules apply.

So what is the lesson here..?? Power boaters need to LEARN Something About Sailing to protect themselves against those sailor kooks.... NB

[Pineedles]

"Power Boaters don't know HOW to sail"

I am an experienced seaman on both fresh and salt water, and therefore know how to sail and how to powerboat, as well as how to paddle both canoe and kayak, and row for that matter. Many powerboaters do know how to sail and all or some of the above. Generalizations like the above just stir the pot.

[VitaBene]

I give the sailboat the right of way unless it is sails down in a NWZ then normal rules apply.

[no-engine]

I've been boating, mostly sail, all my life and then some (born October). We are not in a court of law. I'm not going to nit pick on the rules. It all comes down to respect for others on water.

[fatlazyless]

If it is running by motor power, then it's a motorboat.

Some small sailboats use oars for when there's no wind, which seems like a good matchup for a 12 or 14' sailboat which is usually a very lightweight hull. Seems like relying on oars as a backup would encourage appreciation for sails & wind.

In my opinion, one of the better sailing aids are those wind vane directional pointers as opposed to a simple yarn tell-tale. They take a lot of the mystery out of sailing, by defining the wind's driection with an easy-to-read directional pointer.

[jrc]

since we are on this subject, when I pass a sailboat in open water should I pass on the bow or stern, windward or leeward? In other words where is the best place to have the wake hit you. Obviously the more distance the better.

[SAMIAM]

Sail and power at the same time???? Horrors....where is Al Gore when you need him?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by jrc

since we are on this subject, when I pass a sailboat in open water should I pass on the bow or stern, windward or leeward? In other words where is the best place to have the wake hit you. Obviously the more distance the better.

Jrc, I would say in most cases try to pass to the stern. Even though a sail boat may look like it is not moving, if the sails are full it is, plus the winds in the lake can be variable in speed and direction. A gust will cause the sail boat to speed up which can screw up your plan pretty quickly. Usually sailboats try to maximize a good tack, in the case of my sailboat I will get pretty close to the shore. So if a sailboat is on a tack pointed toward the shore, you can be sure that it will be tacking soon, turning away from shore. If you pass closely in this case you are almost guaranteed to have to change course to avoid the sail boat. It is better to give the sailboat a wide berth to avoid being surprised.

Generally wakes don't bother sailboats that much because the sail, rudder and centerboard/keel make the boat very stable when underway.

[Pineedles]

I guess I don't understand all this deference to sailboats. I know exactly where they are going and why they are going that way, (as long as there is a competent captain aboard) and that doesn't take long to figure out. Follow the navigational rules when engaging. That way you won't surprise the sailboat, who probably knows the rules of the water/road.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by ITD

"...I would say in most cases try to pass to the stern. Even though a sail boat may look like it is not moving, if the sails are full it is, plus the winds in the lake can be variable in speed and direction. A gust will cause the sail boat to speed up..."

1) Definitely pass astern of sailboats when allowed any choice in your particular circumstance: Even if it "appears" it is the longer path, it could actually be shorter—as sailboats "don't just stand still"!

...Very often...

2) Since 1972, among other sailboat types, I've sailed four personally-owned catamarans on Lake Winnipesaukee: within that timeframe the number of registered boats on Winnipesaukee has doubled—and they're mostly much-bigger!

Catamarans are "impacted" more severely by the wakes of powerboats, because waves are reflected back-and-forth between the two hulls which, particularly in light winds, brings forward progress to a near-halt. (Sometimes propelling one's catamaran backwards! ).

I've sold each of my catamarans—including two I owned at the same time: neither has returned to Lake Winnipesaukee.

3) The number of Winnipesaukee catamarans doesn't appear to have kept pace with "other" sailboat ownerships—and in my experience—it's powerboat wakes that diminish the sailing speeds that catamarans enjoy so much.

4) There's no sailboat that can "speed-up" like the Olympic-class "machine" they call the Tornado! At 20-feet—with 30-feet of mast—and weighing less than 500 pounds...it'll "squirt-unexpectedly" in the slightest of breezes. Upon its introduction, it was advertised towing a water skier!

With my crew—and while casually discussing the winds on The Broads with another sailing boat—I very nearly demonstrated being "launched" over my Tornado's transom when caught by an unseen gust of wind!

5) So finally, we come to the issue of "sailboats under-power acting as if they were 'just sailing'":

If you've ever tried to "drop" your sails in rough-waters, you'd understand why sailboats (those that are equipped with auxiliary power) must use power to get to a spot where the sails can be "dropped" with getting launched overboard.

Understanding things such as the above examples may be why—in earning the United Kingdom's "Boating Certificate"—one must demonstrate one's proficiencies at sailing an actual sailboat!

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

[B]
Understanding things such as the above examples may be why—in earning the United Kingdom's "Boating Certificate"—one must demonstrate one's proficiencies at sailing an actual sailboat!

Thank God we boat in NH and not the UK!

[rockythedog]

Here's another double standard. We were coming back from Wolfeboro last night around 8:00 pm. Had nav lights on, 1/2 hour before sunset, and passed a sailboat with no lights heading towards the broads. Do the same rules apply for nightime navigation?

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by rockythedog

Here's another double standard. We were coming back from Wolfeboro last night around 8:00 pm. Had nav lights on, 1/2 hour before sunset, and passed a sailboat with no lights heading towards the broads. Do the same rules apply for nightime navigation?

Was it a Sunfish .............or was it a 36' "Yacht". NB

[rockythedog]

22-26 foot sailboat with main and jib. No light on the mast. Kind of dangerous at dusk.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I think the rule is a half hour "after" sunset. In practice it seems to be effected by the cloud cover quite dramatically. Reminds me of the rule growing up... to be home when the street light comes on. This took into account changes in the length of day, the severity of the weather etc. Never seemed to take in to account the fact that the bases were loaded and Frankie was at bat.

[ApS]

"Cloud-cover" is right!

Some kids were retrieving a boat that had gone adrift: I took this photo in the late-afternoon last Summer!

[Misty Blue]

A sailboat under sail alone after sunset is required to show Red and Green running lights with a arc of 112.5 deg. forward each and one 135 deg. aft. That's the way that you know that she is a sailboat and is the "stand on vessel" and you are the "give way vessel".

If he starts his motor the vessel becomes a power vessel and he is required to turn on his mast head light to show it. He then must obey the regular nav rules just like a power boater.

For what it is worth, really nadda on the Lake, during the day he should show an inverted cone from the yard arm to show that he is also under engine power. Yo Ho Ho!

Hope this helps.

Misty Blue.

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Never seemed to take in to account the fact that the bases were loaded and Frankie was at bat.

While I'm reading your post I'm listening to Joe Walsh sing.."bases are loaded and Casey at bat,changes in every way.."

[Winnipesaukee]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

I've sold each of my catamarans—including two I owned at the same time: neither has returned to Lake Winnipesaukee.

4) There's no sailboat that can "speed-up" like the Olympic-class "machine" they call the Tornado! At 20-feet—with 30-feet of mast—and weighing less than 500 pounds...it'll "squirt-unexpectedly" in the slightest of breezes. Upon its introduction, it was advertised towing a water skier!
:

Almost insulting! One of those catamarans is currently undergoing a restoration, but WILL be back on Winnipesaukee!

And everything weighs about 360, last I checked.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"...In my opinion, one of the better sailing aids are those wind vane directional pointers as opposed to a simple yarn tell-tale. They take a lot of the mystery out of sailing, by defining the wind's direction with an easy-to-read directional pointer..."

One of those arrived on a catamaran I'd bought—and was "powered" by a feather! (A "primary" feather, for those who've got to know.

I found that it was not sensitive enough!

In lake sailing, winds are often described as "flukey". (Not so much in ocean environments).

Though it's usually only durable enough for a week or so, my latest setup involves the use of a one-foot length of a mylar strand from a tattered tarp: tied to a breast feather from a duck, it picks up the slightest of zephyrs.

Any bird's feather works well—Loon or Seagull—just check downwind from a few that are preening.

Even when the lake appears to be a "flat calm"...there IS wind out there. (So you can start sailing much earlier in your day).

[Dave R]

Sailing looked like a blast yesterday, all day from what I could see.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Sailing looked like a blast yesterday, all day from what I could see.

Sunday, the 18th, "the blast" was only for the largest sailboats!

My waters were shared by two other small sailboats: a Phantom-15 and a Hobie-14. The old guy in the Phantom flipped over right in front of me. (After which, he "called it a day").

The Hobie-guy was a good sport—and continued to sail for at least an hour after a spectacular capsize while nearing The Broads. (While I didn't capsize, none of us had a "dry" sailing day!)

A J-boat and another large(r) sailboat definitely had their hands full!

[VtSteve]

some sailboat is out to get you

http://lyonsimaging.smugmug.com/gall...86606176_GgxD8

[Winnipesaukee]

Dave R: I think a sailboat captain deliberately tested my boating knowledge this morning. I was headed northwest south of Moose/Ship Islands and a sailboat was crossing from right to left in front of me (he was on a starboard tack), at about a 50 degree angle, relative to my course. With plenty of space to spare, I adjusted my course to starboard to pass about 300 feet behind him. When I got about 600 feet away he made a 130 degree turn to starboard (into the wind, so a tack) which now put him directly ahead of me and on the same heading. I immediately altered course to port and overtook him on his port side about 200-250 feet away. There was no visible legitimate reason for the sudden (and illegal, the sailboat was the stand-on vessel) tack and I think it was simply to see what I'd do. I smiled, waved and continued on my way.

That was you? I'm really sorry about that! (only kidding)

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

One of those arrived on a catamaran I'd bought—and was "powered" by a feather! (A "primary" feather, for those who've got to know.

I found that it was not sensitive enough!

In lake sailing, winds are often described as "flukey". (Not so much in ocean environments).

Though it's usually only durable enough for a week or so, my latest setup involves the use of a one-foot length of a mylar strand from a tattered tarp: tied to a breast feather from a duck, it picks up the slightest of zephyrs.

Any bird's feather works well—Loon or Seagull—just check downwind from a few that are preening.

Even when the lake appears to be a "flat calm"...there IS wind out there. (So you can start sailing much earlier in your day).

I have found this to be the most sensitive. Unfortunately, I can't find tapes anymore!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

"...I have found this to be the most sensitive. Unfortunately, I can't find tapes anymore...!

I'll save some "dead" sacrificial tapes for ya.

But how can it be more sensitive than a feather? Audiotape has iron in it!

But speaking of tell-tales, one tell-tale has disappeared from mid-leach of my present sail. (Only the base remains). What was that tell-tale supposed to indicate?

Originally Posted by VtSteve

some sailboat is out to get you

http://lyonsimaging.smugmug.com/gall...86606176_GgxD8

One boat is very big, but they're both sailboats—and have to observe the same rules when the same space is shared by sailboats.

This 2008 case has been discussed forever: consensus is that the boats share equal blame.



About Wednesday, I'd like to start a thread on some elements in this case. (But not this Maltese-Falcon collision).

Wind can play a huge part when two boats are close enough to interact...but wind is rarely mentioned in this collision.

[Lucky1]

Don't kayaks, canoes, rowboats etc have the right of way on the lakes in NH??

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

Don't kayaks, canoes, rowboats etc have the right of way on the lakes in NH??

Sort of, it's not really called "right of way", but human powered craft are stand-on to all other vessels.

[VtSteve]

From what I had read about the Maltese incident, the smaller craft misjudged the wind when he tacked to get closer to it. The Maltese was on a steady heading, mid channel, and had already been buzzed by onlookers in small craft. My take was that the smaller craft acted like a PWC jumping wakes.

He also fled the scene

[Winnipesaukee]

But speaking of tell-tales, one tell-tale has disappeared from mid-leach of my present sail. (Only the base remains). What was that tell-tale supposed to indicate?

The midleach telltale is used to compare to the top and bottom leach in order to determine proper vang tension and twist in your main. Newer sailors can also use them to determine how far out their mainsail should be. If they flow to leeward, the sail is trimmed out too far, and vice-versa. "Make sure the telltales are flowing straight back!"

...Maybe I should try a feather. Hmmm...

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

"...The midleach telltale is used to compare to the top and bottom leach in order to determine proper vang tension and twist in your main..."

Proper vang tension is a big problem for me.

Maybe I should install a vang!

Originally Posted by VtSteve

From what I had read about the Maltese incident, the smaller craft misjudged the wind when he tacked to get closer to it. The Maltese was on a steady heading, mid channel, and had already been buzzed by onlookers in small craft. My take was that the smaller craft acted like a PWC jumping wakes. He also fled the scene

1) Because of the immense size size of the Maltese Falcon sailboat—and the many admirers crowding the channel that day, they'd hired a harbor pilot. Although the damage was minimal, the harbor pilot returned to get the bow number of the much-smaller sailboat.

I don't see any sailboat "fleeing the scene".

2) It wasn't exactly "the wind" that the smaller boat misjudged: It was the sudden absense of wind—properly termed the "wind-shadow".

A "wind-shadow" that is large enough, can even affect the weather:



(Yes, I'm being followed by a wind shadow...winnnnd shadow, wind shadow...)

[VtSteve]

Run Forest, Run !!!

[BroadHopper]

A number of us witness a sailboat coming out of Smith Cove under power. he was traveling about 15 mph and headed straight out to the Broads. A number of us had to stop and or change course. A clear violation of the 150' rule.

I'm beginning to think this is getting a bit much.

[Winnipesaukee]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I give the sailboat the right of way unless it is sails down in a NWZ then normal rules apply.

No, I'm going to go with "most powerboaters do not know how to sail."

[XCR-700]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

"Power Boaters don't know HOW to sail"

I am an experienced seaman on both fresh and salt water, and therefore know how to sail and how to powerboat, as well as how to paddle both canoe and kayak, and row for that matter. Many powerboaters do know how to sail and all or some of the above. Generalizations like the above just stir the pot.

As a powerboater all my life, I know VERY little about sail boats and have even less use for them. Its just not for me,,,

And I take NO offence at being lumped into a single pot of powerboaters that are ignorant of sail boat operation and I suspect that most of my close friends that are also powerboaters would fall into the same category and are not likely to be offended by being lumped together either,,,

I give sail boats as much room to maneuver as possible as I figure that sails up or down/under power or not they are a different beast than my powerboats and its just not worth having an incident and then trying to figure out who was on the right side of the paper rule. Cut em some slack and don’t give it a second thought and your day will not be interrupted by an unfortunate incident.

I think the positive message from this thread has already been well stated, people are human, accidents happen, and so long as no injuries occurred, don’t let it ruin your day.

Happy Boating!!!

[fatlazyless]

The biggest mystery in sailing, at least for me, is what direction is the wind? It seems to be changing direction quite a bit, like every couple minutes, it can change a little and sometime it changes a lot.

In the sailing world of words, are those yarn string directional aids correctly spelled as tell-tales or tell-tails?Been loose'n sleep think'n about that lately?

Someone in Holderness has a largish 14' sailboat, out by the road with a $5000 for sale sign. It comes with a built-in solar powered battery charger and a built-in electric motor similar to a trolling motor. Something tells me that one could be a tough sell at $5000., but one never knows?

When encountering small sailboats in my motorboat I usually cut in close just to stir em up and make em a little jumpy, plus I figure it adds some excitment to their cruise. As long as you don't slice em into two, what the heck and there's nuth'n more boring than sailing with no wind?

[ishoot308]

I guess I feel a little different... Most sail boats are only using small kicker motors and here I am with this big inboard or outboard. I feel it's just respectful to always give them the right of way. It's really no big deal and I seem to always get a friendly wave out of the deal.

It's like helping a senior citizen with a grocery bag...you don't have to do it, but you know it's the right thing to do and you feel good about doing it!

Just my feelings on the subject;

Happy boating!

Dan

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

It's like helping a senior citizen with a grocery bag...you don't have to do it, but you know it's the right thing to do and you feel good about doing it!

Just my feelings on the subject;

Happy boating!

Dan

Oh great, now I feel like I'm about to be put in the home
Still appreciate the sentiment though.

[no-engine]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

When encountering small sailboats in my motorboat I usually cut in close just to stir em up and make em a little jumpy, plus I figure it adds some excitment to their cruise. As long as you don't slice em into two, what the heck and there's nuth'n more boring than sailing with no wind?

Wouldn't you be unlawful "cutting in close", assuming the distance?

Should a motorboat cut you close to add some excitement to your boating day?

Isn't it boring sitting on an anchored motorboat and rocking to the most minimal wave action? A sailboat is stabilized by the keel and sail as was posted back a bit.