Overnight on the Lake

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Steveo

Bottomline, I don't think there is a choice in any kind of overnight anchoring/mooring that won't be abused or could be adequately enforced.

It's legal in the other 49 states... I think NH is dead wrong on this issue and that the law was created solely to please some lakefront property owners. I understand that some people will be loud and obnoxious when anchoring overnight, but there are already laws against disturbing the peace.

[NoBozo]

I think the NO anchoring overnight, or NO hanging on a "Mooring" overnight comes from a simple reality. If people are given free and unregulated access to the lake...they WILL Take It.

Picture this: I live in the big city and it gets hot in the summer. I think I'll build myself a Barge with a "Cabin" on it ..maybe two stories high. I'll drag the barge up to Winni and launch it in June or so and tow it out to the nicest spot I can find and drop a large anchor over the side and ....Spend The Summer.

It's like I have Waterfront Property without the taxes and upkeep. I'll invite my friends up and they will see what a great idea this is and they will bring their own barge up next year....And so it goes.

Picture an All Summer Long Woodstock '69 in Braun Bay. Hundreds of Tie Dyed T-shirts flying from improvised clothes lines on improvised floating summer "Homes". NB

[alsadad]

A man from the Island of Bear
Told Mass Camper “Come anchor right there.”
Have fun all the night
But stay out of sight
Because I have neighbors who stare.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I think the NO anchoring overnight, or NO hanging on a "Mooring" overnight comes from a simple reality. If people are given free and unregulated access to the lake...they WILL Take It.

Picture this: I live in the big city and it gets hot in the summer. I think I'll build myself a Barge with a "Cabin" on it ..maybe two stories high. I'll drag the barge up to Winni and launch it in June or so and tow it out to the nicest spot I can find and drop a large anchor over the side and ....Spend The Summer.

It's like I have Waterfront Property without the taxes and upkeep. I'll invite my friends up and they will see what a great idea this is and they will bring their own barge up next year....And so it goes.

Picture an All Summer Long Woodstock '69 in Braun Bay. Hundreds of Tie Dyed T-shirts flying from improvised clothes lines on improvised floating summer "Homes". NB

It's legal in Sebago, nobody does it.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Dave R

It's legal in Sebago, nobody does it.

Maybe there's no reason to go to Sebago..? Personally ..I like Winni and I have the choice to go anywhere. Just sayin. NB

[Mee-n-Mac]

here.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../270-a-mrg.htm

Now we've had definitions and discussions re: just what a "houseboat" is but if you can sleep on it ... it's got "sleeping facilities" and no doubt a porta-pottie falls under the ruling of a "toilet facility" (albeit a temporary one).

Frankly if you're tied up at a dock or beached onshore next to a house I doubt the MP will bother to check on you. An anchor in the water and a line to a tree onshore in the woods may not go so unchallenged. I'd have to say Broadhopper got lucky.


(ps - a galley makes no difference whether a boat is a "houseboat")

[no-engine]

This situation is hard to believe. What happened is that a few legislators living on or owning lake front property decided they'd write legislation stopping anchoring off their own property, and it all passed, b/c the remaining to make the required vote did not understand and so voted in favor of the proposed laws.

As I once wrote, as a kid on coast between just south of Boston and all around the many sheltered bays & coves on Cape Cod, we anchored overnight many times. My late father used to say the floating summer cottage. We were self contained 32' sail boat with galley, cook top stove (fuel was safe liquid alcohol), icebox (yes with ice blocks), bunks, a head (the toilet facilities), swimming ladder, and so on. Everyone had respect for the shore property; sometimes it was public park lands. I can be more specific about locations, but who cares. Certainly NH State Legislators do not.

It seems ludicrous that a boat at mooring can be there, but as soon as people are aboard, a mast head white light is required at night! I used to have a 19' sailboat; I'd use a porta-potty and occasionally sleep aboard while on my own mooring. I never abused where I was and never was "inspected" or ticketed during the night. As one wrote, depends on who the MP officer is working and where they are patrolling.

[NoRegrets]

How sad when politicians vote on issues when they have no knowledge about the topic. How infuriating when they take advice from special interest groups and limit everyone!

November should be a very telling time for our country and then maybe we can all go back to a more common sense society.

Still would like to hear about the night out with your wife and I am sure there are many on the forum that will insure you have a safe celebration!

[VtSteve]

I think the perception is one of worry, since so very few people on Winni overnight on boats. It's so common over here, that I try to plan to be out of the way soon enough on a Friday night that I don't get caught in the myriad of pocket cruiser wakes as they rush out for the weekend.

There are many "Special Designated Anchorage areas" as well. They are all on the chart from Canada all the way South. Obviously, Winni's problem since the heyday of the 70's building boom onward, is that there aren't that many areas left that are undeveloped.

Boaters in general have very little voice or advocates on Winni, which shows up in spades.

BTW, thanks to whomever showed the link to the Long Island campground, I somehow missed them in my searches for places to stay and boat.

[jrc]

The law cited was written in 1967, not exactly a new restriction.

Laws like this and no rafting are not about safety. It's like prohibiting camping in a park. Yellowstone would be silly but Central Park maybe not.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by no-engine

"...This situation is hard to believe...as a kid on coast between just south of Boston and all around the many sheltered bays & coves on Cape Cod, we anchored overnight many times..."

...Not too many water-lines extending out into salt water.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Dave R

It's legal in the other 49 states... I think NH is dead wrong on this issue and that the law was created solely to please some lakefront property owners. I understand that some people will be loud and obnoxious when anchoring overnight, but there are already laws against disturbing the peace.

I tend to agree with this statement. I was surprised completely by this particular law when I began boating in NH. I do believe it is one that should be revised maybe not complete overturned but definitely revised.

All they have to do to keep people from permanently mooring somewhere as No Bozo suggests will happen is add a clause....

A amended law should include the following:

Mooring overnight is allow given the following
1) the vessel has antiquate bathroom facilities,
2) the vessel is not moored in the same general location for more the X number of nights
3) the vessel is moored and a safe a prudent manner based on the prevailing conditions and location

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I tend to agree with this statement. I was surprised completely by this particular law when I began boating in NH. I do believe it is one that should be revised maybe not complete overturned but definitely revised.

All they have to do to keep people from permanently mooring somewhere as No Bozo suggests will happen is add a clause....

A amended law should include the following:

Mooring overnight is allow given the following
1) the vessel has antiquate bathroom facilities,
2) the vessel is not moored in the same general location for more the X number of nights
3) the vessel is moored and a safe a prudent manner based on the prevailing conditions and location

To a boater this idea sounds pretty good. Waterfront property owners see a disaster in the making. If 50 or 100 boats did this then no problem. However Winnipesaukee is very popular. What if 500 or 5,000 boaters think this is a good idea. Imagine fifty boats anchored in a small cove for "x" nights. If you have more than a couple of dozen boats at least one or two will be playing loud music until 3 am.

And what is the difference if a given boat moves after "x" nights if another boat immediately takes it's place.

The cost of waterfront rentals is very high. No problem, put a porta-potty on the boat and you have an instant lake home. Let's be real, this is EXACTLY the scenario this law exists to prevent.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

To a boater this idea sounds pretty good. Waterfront property owners see a disaster in the making. If 50 or 100 boats did this then no problem. However Winnipesaukee is very popular. What if 500 or 5,000 boaters think this is a good idea. Imagine fifty boats anchored in a small cove for "x" nights. If you have more than a couple of dozen boats at least one or two will be playing loud music until 3 am.

And what is the difference if a given boat moves after "x" nights if another boat immediately takes it's place.

The cost of waterfront rentals is very high. No problem, put a porta-potty on the boat and you have an instant lake home. Let's be real, this is EXACTLY the scenario this law exists to prevent.

I am a water front home owner as are you.... I personally am not scared of something like this. Why? Because a vast majority of the boats on the lake are not big enough for people to stay comfortably on for a night or maybe 2. So what if they anchor out in front of my house as long as they are respectful there will not be any problem. All the noise ordinances quiet after 11 or 12 apply on the water as they do on land.... I go down into Braun bay and other rafting areas every weekend on my normal cruise around the lake... Noise is not an issue....

So one thing I probably forgot in my list, is if someone is moored overnight they can't be part of a raft period.

As much as some one anchored in front of your house is going to bug you, knowing that you are sitting behind them is going to bug most people looking to anchor out for an evening. With the right adders modifying this law to allow people to anchor out really would not be that bad off an idea...

other suggestions for rules on anchoring overnight....

--- can't be part of a raft
--- have to XXX ft from shore
--- have to be XX feet from another boat

The bottom line is this, people worry about something of this being taken advantage off... go to Lake Champlain, Sabago Lake, and some of the other major lake in the northeast.... You will find out it really doesn't..... but it does allow people to anchor in a cove for a nice night once in a while, or not worry if they drop anchor to wait for weather to pass overnight.....

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

The bottom line is this, people worry about something of this being taken advantage off... go to Lake Champlain, Sabago Lake, and some of the other major lake in the northeast.... You will find out it really doesn't..... but it does allow people to anchor in a cove for a nice night once in a while, or not worry if they drop anchor to wait for weather to pass overnight.....

I spend the night "on the hook" quite a bit outside of NH. I have never witnessed any obnoxious or loud behavior, even as part of a group of about 50 boats on the CT river in MA over a 4th of July weekend. It's always been very peaceful. It's also a great experience that you cannot accurately convey to anyone who has never done it.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I spend the night "on the hook" quite a bit outside of NH. I have never witnessed any obnoxious or loud behavior, even as part of a group of about 50 boats on the CT river in MA over a 4th of July weekend. It's always been very peaceful. It's also a great experience that you cannot accurately convey to anyone who has never done it.

My background comes from the Coast. I have anchored, picked up moorings for rent, anchored, and accepted "complimentary" moorings from Yacht Clubs and Boat Yards from Connecticut to Bar Harbor. I have never run across the Scenario that I suggested a few posts ago about ...Hobo Anchorages.

There WAS a problem with this trend a couple of decades ago in Florida.

Along the Coast (North of Marblehead) you won't see "Gatherings" of boats. The boats that cruise the coast North are NOT Amateurs. They are seasoned "Cruisers".

No disrespect intended but my point here is the people on Winni ARE NOT the same people boating /CRUISING in Salt Water. NB

[MAXUM]

Judging by the way some people act during the day I can only imagine what the consequences would be if any of them were able to spend the night legally on the lake. Frankly all this week I've been on vacation and on the lake just about every day. I have been literally appalled at how obnoxious and inconsiderate some have been to the point where twice I've had to vacate my spot due to excessive drinking, swearing (yeah great to have to explain what those words mean to my daughter), boats anchoring right on top of you, loud music etc.... Its funny how one boat load can ruin a perfect day where an otherwise bunch of nice friendly and considerate people were gathered to all share what few pieces of sandy bottomed real estate exist on the lake. That's the underlying problem, as long as there are idiots out there like this overnight stays on the lake will never become a legal reality. Yeah I don't like it, but I can understand why its not allowed. Furthermore the marine patrol has enough problems to deal with - adding in the headache of policing at night and essentially playing nanny is something I would bet they just as soon not be in the business of doing. Sad to say everyone suffers as a result.

[VtSteve]

I can certainly understand your feelings Maxum, probably not far off the mark. I was pretty amazed at how much the boating environment had changed from my boatless period from 1997 until 2007. I've come to believe that during this ten year period, the financial reality of owning a boat temporarily vanished, and a whole new cast of characters entered the fray.

It's quite obvious that many "boaters" today have no previous experience on the water at all, and many people that are new boat owners are not even close to what I grew up with, or came to "assume" was common. If you take people with attitudes and arrogance from our roads and highways and transplant them in a boat, you have what we have today. Before I paint with too broad a brush, I agree with most that it's the "few" that stick out more than anything. Most boaters everywhere are good people, careful people, that simply want to enjoy the sport. But add to that mix the new crowd, and it appears to be a major change.

I was at anchor Wednesday night, enjoying the warmer waters and beautiful sunset. This was in a large beach area, where it's between 3' and 12' of mostly sandy shoreline for a mile out. A minor disruption was a 20' bowrider towing a tube, from near the beach area, between anchored boats, with his wake smashing us every few minutes Just a mom, dad and a couple of kids having fun. I'll bet he had no idea what he was doing wrong, he didn't look like the "type" we speak of as boneheads or cowboys. Probably just someone relatively new to boating, that hadn't had the common water sense to relate his own boat rocking wildly at anchor, to his own actions when tubing.

Outside of people refusing to deviate from a straight line of travel to their destination, regardless of your boat's course and options, smaller boats with tubers and those going way to close at speed account for at least 80% of my issues on the water. The vast majority of people I know that overnight do so in sheltered coves or at marinas. Most of these folks are very friendly boaters, not causing problems or being loud and obnoxious. I'm sure there are exceptions, I've just not witnessed them. At anchor or rafting during the daytime, that's usually when you spot the tiny minority of problem people. Drinking is a big problem in these groups, though not always. Most of these obnoxious, oblivious to everyone else boaters are daytime only boaters. They usually terrorize others while on land at night

As for enforcement, 99% of the issues regarding rowdy, drinking, obnoxious and dangerous boaters are found during the daytime. Rarely are the people in this majority the same as those that overnight on a boat. In fact, if these boneheads and binge drinkers were effectively dealt with during the daytime, this thread would not be what it is, mostly perception and worry.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

The vast majority of people I know that overnight do so in sheltered coves or at marinas. Most of these folks are very friendly boaters, not causing problems or being loud and obnoxious. I'm sure there are exceptions, I've just not witnessed them. At anchor or rafting during the daytime, that's usually when you spot the tiny minority of problem people. Drinking is a big problem in these groups, though not always. Most of these obnoxious, oblivious to everyone else boaters are daytime only boaters. They usually terrorize others while on land at night

That's been my experience. The once the daylight dwindles, the anchorage gets less crowded and all that's left are peaceful and quiet boaters spending the night. Not saying it's like that everywhere, just everywhere I've slept on the hook. My recollection is that it was the same way on Winnipesuakee in the brief period during the mid-70s when anchoring overnight was legal. I also recall that hardly anyone did it back then too.

The first time I ever spent the night on the hook was when I was 9 or 10 years old and we left Robert's Cove in the evening and slept in Paugus Bay. That got me hooked on the idea.

[hilltopper]

Some of my fondest memories as a kid were taking our 20 foot sailboat from our mooring in Mallets Bay (Colchester, VT) to Gail's Cove, also in Mallets Bay. We'd anchor, attach a rope to shore, and spend the day and night rock diving, snorkeling, etc. As mentioned above, there's a big difference between the two lakes. At Lake Champlain the view was a rugged, uninhabited shore. At Winni it would be developed shoreline as far as the eye could see (in most areas anyway). So this doesn't sound like a fun, relaxing experience to me if done on Winni. Big Squam...that'd be a different story.

[VtSteve]

They are vastly different bodies of water Hilltoppper, you characterized the differences better than I. My guess is that if it were legal on Winni, few would really know about it anyway. I had no idea it wasn't allowed, primarily because I never really thought about it. It's a lot more rustic that tenting in many cases, especially for the smaller boats.



Probably better left alone at this point.......

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

They are vastly different bodies of water Hilltoppper, you characterized the differences better than I. My guess is that if it were legal on Winni, few would really know about it anyway. I had no idea it wasn't allowed, primarily because I never really thought about it. It's a lot more rustic that tenting in many cases, especially for the smaller boats.



Probably better left alone at this point.......

I hear you but I can think of a few sweet spots where I would love to overnight on Winnipesaukee.

I have fond memories of overnighting at Squam (we had our first boat there for years at Squam Boats (next to Walter's Basin)), World's End in Hingham MA and Martha's Vineyard.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I hear you but I can think of a few sweet spots where I would love to overnight on Winnipesaukee.

I have fond memories of overnighting at Squam (we had our first boat there for years at Squam Boats (next to Walter's Basin)), World's End in Hingham MA and Martha's Vineyard.

There's lots of things we'd all like to do, and just can't As you can see, some people want you to be able to do even less. I gave up trying to fight the world, I just either go along, or move on. Not enough time to fight everything.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

I can certainly understand your feelings Maxum, probably not far off the mark. I was pretty amazed at how much the boating environment had changed from my boatless period from 1997 until 2007. I've come to believe that during this ten year period, the financial reality of owning a boat temporarily vanished, and a whole new cast of characters entered the fray.

It's quite obvious that many "boaters" today have no previous experience on the water at all, and many people that are new boat owners are not even close to what I grew up with, or came to "assume" was common. If you take people with attitudes and arrogance from our roads and highways and transplant them in a boat, you have what we have today. Before I paint with too broad a brush, I agree with most that it's the "few" that stick out more than anything. Most boaters everywhere are good people, careful people, that simply want to enjoy the sport. But add to that mix the new crowd, and it appears to be a major change.

I was at anchor Wednesday night, enjoying the warmer waters and beautiful sunset. This was in a large beach area, where it's between 3' and 12' of mostly sandy shoreline for a mile out. A minor disruption was a 20' bowrider towing a tube, from near the beach area, between anchored boats, with his wake smashing us every few minutes Just a mom, dad and a couple of kids having fun. I'll bet he had no idea what he was doing wrong, he didn't look like the "type" we speak of as boneheads or cowboys. Probably just someone relatively new to boating, that hadn't had the common water sense to relate his own boat rocking wildly at anchor, to his own actions when tubing.

Outside of people refusing to deviate from a straight line of travel to their destination, regardless of your boat's course and options, smaller boats with tubers and those going way to close at speed account for at least 80% of my issues on the water. The vast majority of people I know that overnight do so in sheltered coves or at marinas. Most of these folks are very friendly boaters, not causing problems or being loud and obnoxious. I'm sure there are exceptions, I've just not witnessed them. At anchor or rafting during the daytime, that's usually when you spot the tiny minority of problem people. Drinking is a big problem in these groups, though not always. Most of these obnoxious, oblivious to everyone else boaters are daytime only boaters. They usually terrorize others while on land at night

As for enforcement, 99% of the issues regarding rowdy, drinking, obnoxious and dangerous boaters are found during the daytime. Rarely are the people in this majority the same as those that overnight on a boat. In fact, if these boneheads and binge drinkers were effectively dealt with during the daytime, this thread would not be what it is, mostly perception and worry.

A very well laid out argument and I certainly have no disagreement with any of it. I believe your assessment to be for the most part accurate. I would also submit that there is a huge distinction between say a boater who may be out of ignorance breaking a boating law and a bunch of loud and obnoxious (sometimes drunk as a skunk) people.

I don't know why the law for spending the night was enacted, if it was based on a few complaints, some activists who had nothing better to do, was a preemptive measure or was really for legitimate reasons. Whatever the case I agree with you that the boating crowd is changing and the new influx of boaters contains a higher percentage of the "party hard" mentality. If not kept in check it will lead to stereotypes that do paint a broad brush and more restrictions. Unfortunately law makers are doing quite well coming up with all sorts of new and innovative ways to keep them and everyone else under control. Let's face it though the law itself is no longer much of a deterrent, unless of course you get caught.

[Dave R]

I have always assumed the law against overnight anchoring was created on behalf of some waterfront property owners, but perhaps it's marina owners who asked for the law. They had more to lose with the advent of affordable trailerable pocket cruisers. Prior to the existance of the law in 1967, there were plenty of cabin cruisers on the lake, but the vast majority were too big to trailer routinely and were wet-slipped. Just a thought...

[Steveo]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

I tend to agree with this statement. I was surprised completely by this particular law when I began boating in NH. I do believe it is one that should be revised maybe not complete overturned but definitely revised.

All they have to do to keep people from permanently mooring somewhere as No Bozo suggests will happen is add a clause....

A amended law should include the following:

Mooring overnight is allow given the following
1) the vessel has antiquate bathroom facilities,
2) the vessel is not moored in the same general location for more the X number of nights
3) the vessel is moored and a safe a prudent manner based on the prevailing conditions and location

What a burden this would put on the Marine Patrol. Check each of the 500 boats to see if they have a head and are properly anchored. Then keep a list of each boat and its location and the start of its X night. Then watch the musical chairs they all do when X nights is up. And oh by the way do this all at night.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Steveo

What a burden this would put on the Marine Patrol. Check each of the 500 boats to see if they have a head and are properly anchored. Then keep a list of each boat and its location and the start of its X night. Then watch the musical chairs they all do when X nights is up. And oh by the way do this all at night.

Alternatively, it could simply be enforced like every other law. At present, the Marine Patrol is not required to verify that every boat on the lake has the correct number and type of PFD, only the boats the choose to check. The responsibility to follow laws really rests on the individual boater.